Scopes and Space shop - anyone know their status?

coylemj

Their website is down for 'essential maintenance' and this....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057412039

mickmackey1

This post on the IFAS site wouldn't exactly fill you with confidence...

http://www.irishastronomy.org/index.php?option=com_kunena&view=topic&catid=44&id=100321&Itemid=211#103660

"Dare I say LOST IN SPACE

Looking for Nobs from Scope&Space.
Over a Year, blue in face.
Emails, phone calls, went to shop,
Spoofs, excuses, never stop.
So, one day,called Bob direct
A mere week later got my bits
Them Scopes & spacers are sure the pits"

Astroboi

Few other posts about it on here and on some other forums. IFAS trying to ignore it, which is a bit rich, considering the uproar when David Moore did something like this.

ankaragucu

Astroboi wrote: »

Few other posts about it on here and on some other forums. IFAS trying to ignore it, which is a bit rich, considering the uproar when David Moore did something like this.

Is David Moore involved with this shop can anyone tell me?

MrWalsh

ankaragucu wrote: »

Is David Moore involved with this shop can anyone tell me?

There was some connection with Astronomy Ireland IIRC:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056972086

coylemj

MrWalsh wrote: »

There was some connection with Astronomy Ireland IIRC:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056972086

Having read that thread I am satisfied that the S&S guys were no longer associated with AI though the toxic nature of the AI brand and anything that DM ever touched is such that the lads running S&S appears to be saddled with the stain of original sin, not helped by people endlessly claiming that they were still associated with AI, including vague smears like the 'some connection' post above.

MrWalsh

coylemj wrote: »

......including vague smears like the 'some connection' post above.

What smear? There clearly was a connection.

Same people, same business premises, nature of the business was the same, used to be called AI, then called Scopes and Space.

According to another thread here they are now under investigation with the Guards in Swords having done a runner with peoples money so even if they didnt have the stain of original sin they have clearly managed to smear themselves nonetheless.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057412039

coylemj

MrWalsh wrote: »

What smear? There clearly was a connection.

Same people, same business premises, nature of the business was the same, used to be called AI, then called Scopes and Space.

You posted a link to another thread, here are posts #29 and #30 from that thread ......

Gremlin wrote: »

Just as you are entitled to post, I am entitled to be irritated. Debenhams took over from Roches Stores. Same business, same premises, different owners. It happens.

jfSDAS wrote: »

Completely agree with Gremlin.

I was getting seriously fed up with explaining the situation with Scopes & Space v. A.I. over and over again.

Good point about Roches Stores & Debenhams!

....

To reiterate, this is a completely new venture. Forget any association with A.I. ... it's essentially a buyout by the three guys.

... and that's the last I'll say about the matter,

John

If S&S have gone bust, I suspect a major factor will have been that some people just kept on repeating the 'connection' with AI. In any man's language that is a smear campaign.

MrWalsh

coylemj wrote: »

If S&S have gone bust, I suspect a major factor will have been that some people just kept on repeating the 'connection' with AI. In any man's language that is a smear campaign.

If S&S have gone bust and are under investigation by the Guards I suspect a major factor will have been that they didnt close the business at the right time and continued taking peoples money when they shouldnt.

mickmackey1

I had some dealings with them a while back and regretted it, eventually got my stuff but only after some serious haggling; it's obviously a difficult market for an Irish company to get involved in but they didn't help themselves and I went elsewhere after that.

Seanie M

Astroboi wrote: »

Few other posts about it on here and on some other forums. IFAS trying to ignore it, which is a bit rich, considering the uproar when David Moore did something like this.

IFAS don't have to take an interest in it, Scopes and Space is an independent retailer. The only connection with IFAS is that they were a sponsor of prizes, end-of.

Prior sentiment to David Moore and Astronomy & Space Ltd was purely of Moore's classification of Astronomy Ireland as the only astronomy club in Ireland, and his rip-off nature of pricing by fooling the public he was the only place in Ireland to buy a telescope from.

If I am wrong, please let me know.

Seanie Morris,
IFAS Chairperson.

dbran

Hi

Its always sad to see a company go out of business, for the customers who may have lost their scope, to the employees who have now lost their jobs, to the business owner who has lost his reputation and is now possibly up to his neck in debt.

I never thought that there was sufficient market in Ireland to maintain a "bricks and mortor" showroom type shop for telescopes. Marginal even at the best of times. So much money tied up in stock that cant be readily sold, money on rent for premises and money on staff to operate the premises. All this has to be provided out of sales and I just don't see how there could be enough of it to sustain everything. David Moore just about did it by having high prices and shutting down the competition by whatever means necessary fair or fowl. Carl is not cut from the same cloth.

I always found Carl to be a very helpful and top guy and if it has not worked out for him I am sorry to hear of it.

Thats just my 2c on it.

dbran

liamo

I've only very recently developed an interest in astronomy so my only knowledge of any of the history or baggage that seems to be present on the Irish scene has been garnered on these forums.

As such, when I went to Scopes and Space about 6 weeks ago I did so with the usual expectations that a customer of any store would have.

I have to say that my expectations were easily met and far exceeded by Carl. I found him knowledgeable, personable and very generous with his time and patience.

He recommended and sold me exactly the right scope for my level and I left with every intention of coming back with more business when I was ready to upgrade.

I'd like to echo dbran's comments about how sad it is to see a business go down. There are usually more victims than the business owner when this happens and that appears to be the case here. Definitely no winners coming out of this one

Zubeneschamali

liamo wrote: »

There are usually more victims than the business owner when this happens and that appears to be the case here.

Not you though, eh? You got your scope, happy days!

But feel free to lecture the people who lost thousands because the business took their cash and then vanished.

_Tombstone_

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But feel free to lecture the people who lost thousands because the business took their cash and then vanished.

Quote where this was said.

Zubeneschamali

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Quote where this was said.

Stand on one leg and repeat after me...

_Tombstone_

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Stand on one leg and repeat after me...

Don't Eat The Yellow Snow?

liamo

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Not you though, eh? You got your scope, happy days!

But feel free to lecture the people who lost thousands because the business took their cash and then vanished.

Errrrr. WHAT?

I'm guessing by your post count that you're not a run-of-the-mill troll so I'm left wondering why on earth you would post something like that.

Please excuse me for having had a good experience at Scopes and Space. That must make me a very bad person indeed.

Zubeneschamali

liamo wrote: »

Please excuse me for having had a good experience at Scopes and Space. That must make me a very bad person indeed.

I am not saying you are a bad person. You paid your money and got your scope. If only everyone who paid thousands got their scopes, instead of having the phone ring out because the proprietors changed their numbers, and finding the shop locked up when they went to find out what was up.

Pat Dunne

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Stand on one leg and repeat after me...

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Don't Eat The Yellow Snow?

image.jpg

EtoinShrdlu

I'm a bit late to the conversation but I'm wondering does anyone have any advice on where to go now – either a physical store or online – for astronomy equipment? I only started getting into astronomy about two years ago and came across Scopes & Space – only to get burned like some of the previous posters (three months of 'give me the scope or my money back' – whenever I managed to get through – only to get a letter saying they'd gone bust)! A friend of mine told me about astroshop.eu – anyone dealt with them?

murphyme2010

Try Ktec Telescopes.

They are a Dublin based on-line store.

I've used them several times and can't fault the service. Stephen is very helpful if you'v any queries.

Michael.

Mr Bloat

+1 for Ktec, Stephen was very helpful when I was buying a scope and other bits and pieces a while back.

calchas

I've done a lot of business with these guys in the past:
http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/index.php/language/en

Low shipping prices and never a problem.

ps200306

calchas wrote: »

I've done a lot of business with these guys in the past:
http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/index.php/language/en

Low shipping prices and never a problem.

Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely keep an eye on them. Checked the price for a Celestron CGEM1100 -- it's about a thousand euro cheaper than Ktec or, with the current exchange rates, most UK stores. It's also about €500 more expensive than I paid in the Astronomy Ireland shop a few years back ... but only after they dropped their eye-watering price in response to me saying I could import it for vastly cheaper. I've given up trying to understand why stuff is so expensive here. I used to ring around Irish suppliers first just in case, but nowadays I'll happily go straight to our German friends without a qualm.

Kersh

As a supplier of astronomy equipment here (and in no way associated with either Astronomy Ireland or the company in the thread title), I agree with you on certain points.

One reason stuff is dearer is vat, a 4% difference, which is a small part of it, but 4% is 4% no matter what way you dice it.

The issue isnt Ireland per say, (apart from the vat), its the supply chain for certain brands. You'll notice we are matched pretty well, or less, on Skywatcher, Atik, and even on TS Optics own brand products.

Take for example, a Skywatcher 200PDS HEQ5 Pro - We are €1538, delivered to your door, Teleskop Service are €1594.01 plus delivery. Or the Skywatcher AZ-EQ6GT, we are €1899 delivered, Teleskop Service are €1965 plus delivery.
Apart from being cheaper, you also have to factor in into that difference, the 4% vat, the carriage to Ireland, and the carriage to the customer, all absorbed by us, so I dont think the reality is too bad for Irish astronomers.


The German companies buy Celestron, direct from Celestron, in Euro or $, whereas Irish/UK and Scandinavian countries must buy from a UK supplier (extra man in the chain), plus the stg is currently milling the euro, so its dearer for us to buy it in the UK, but we have to. That is precisely why its cheaper in Germany for certain brands. Nothing more, nothing less.

As a bit of back story, I set up Ktec to bring some choice at good prices to Irish astronomers. I was sick to the back teeth of the sky high prices/one brand offering that was here before us. In particular, I wanted to bring Skywatcher and Meade to the party. Celestron have only come onboard recently, and we are working with them on pricing all of the time.

We also keep an eye on prices everywhere, and do the best we can do to match anything. But its not possible with everything, the high end Celestron products being one of them at the moment.

Hope this helps explain the situation a little.

Stephen.

ps200306

Thanks for the explanation Kersh. Some of that makes sense, some of it doesn't. My only experience of a large scope purchase is Celestron, so I'll stick to that. First off, the currency argument doesn't make a lot of sense. Sure, Sterling is expensive, but if the Celestron price starts in US dollars (from the ultimate supplier) and ends up in euro (to me, the customer) it doesn't matter what happens in between. Sterling is expensive for a euro buyer, but the Sterling middleman is getting lots of dollars for his pound.

I agree with you, the UK middleman is a problem -- he has to get his cut. A UK dealer I spoke to wouldn't bypass the (then) Irish distributor and ship directly to me. He would happily ship to an address in N.I. for me to pick up, though. Likewise with US dealers. They were prepared to ship to a US address only. No problem, I could get a US P.O. Box number and manage the shipping from there myself (and although I didn't go that route in the end, I did do the calculations, including courier costs, insurance, E.U. duties for the correct TARIC code, VAT, currency conversions etc.). So I had several options. I understand the bind you are saying the Irish dealer is in, having to go through an extra middle man. Unfortunately for you, as the customer I am not so constrained. I can pick up in N.I., I can take a ferry to the UK, I can courier from the UK or Europe or even the US. As far as I can tell, the Celestron products are shipping half way round the world no matter where you buy them, since they're made in China.

I wouldn't care if we were talking about a few quid, or a couple of percent extra. I have regularly taken a modest hit just to deal with an Irish supplier and support Irish business (and, of course, have a local guarantor should things go wrong). But we are talking about differences on the order of 25% and more. I'm happy to hear that these discrepancies apply only to certain brands. I can see, as you say, that the price comparisons are much closer for e.g. Atik cameras. That's good to know. Another worry I have in dealing with any supplier -- especially one that I suspect is at the end of a long supply chain -- is putting in an order only to find out that the lead time is several months.

Kersh

The currency argument is a critical part. If the €/£ was at 0.85, I would be buying it at a lower price, and listing it at lower price, like I was in 2011 when it was at that rate.


Im sure there are some other factors, such as bulk buying (TS are a huge company), but in the whole, a large part of the difference is currency/vat/supplier line.
Hence, most products on our site from other brands/suppliers are same price as everywhere else!

We arent holding Celestron prices artificially high for no reason! If I could list a CGEM1100 at TS prices, like the Skywatcher stuff... I would.

Incidentally, the only difference in Atik prices is the vat. Take away the vat from either our, or TS prices and you end up with the same ex-vat price.

By all means, I have no problem with people shopping around. I help and match where I can, and if I cant, I let them on!

But to suggest there is some other motive behind it, ala the crowd who supplied you originally, is just simply wrong.


On the stock situation, we stock a lot of it, but big names like Skywatcher and Celestron seem to have everything in stock that we ask for. Its the specialist suppliers, like Altair, who have the longish lead times, as they batch run telescopes, and on an 80mm triplet, its 2 months at the moment!

ps200306

Again, thanks for the explanation. I still don't understand the currency issue. You are paying a dealer in Sterling, and the euro has plummeted against Sterling. But that dealer is buying from Celestron in dollars, and Sterling has appreciated against the dollar as well as the euro. He should be paying less, and passing the saving on to you. At the end of the day, the only thing that should matter is how the euro has fared against the dollar. Sure, it has fallen, but a euro customer in Ireland, buying through the UK, should be paying the same as a euro customer in Germany, apart from the middleman's cut.

Please don't think I am suggesting any ulterior motive. I'm checking the German prices directly against UK ones, and not understanding the discrepancy, so not really an Irish issue at all. I am thrilled to hear there is an enthusiastic dealer here, and I will check you out for any purchases where it makes sense. Can you do brands other than the ones you advertise, e.g. Starlight Xpress ?

(Agree with you about Altair -- bought one of the Skyshed Pods they import from Canada ... lead time was over six months, though I think there's a bit of [bad] luck involved as to where you happen along in the order cycle).

gizmo555

ps200306 wrote: »

At the end of the day, the only thing that should matter is how the euro has fared against the dollar.

The Euro has fallen in value 18% against the dollar since this time last year.

ps200306

gizmo555 wrote: »

The Euro has fallen in value 18% against the dollar since this time last year.

I understand that. That explains why a Celestron telescope is more expensive now than it was when I bought it several years ago. I doesn't explain why a UK dealer is charging 25% more now than a German one now.