We're being slaughtered again...

RobFowl

Lemming wrote: »

So what you're saying is that you're encountering cyclists cycling on the wrong side of the road then, rather than simply two abreast?

On that road it would be impossible for two cars to go past as well

QuinDixie

Bicycle's do not belong on roads with car's, truck's etc.
Bicycle's belong in cycle lanes and there should be real investment in providing more walking and cycling paths, including between rural towns. convert more old rail track as well.
Ireland should be more friendly to cyclists and walkers.
I am looking at this just from a safety point, there is some drivers that are stone mad.

Rackstar

RobFowl wrote: »

On that road it would be impossible for two cars to go past as well

I've made my point and hopefully some fellow cyclists take note that what they are doing is dangerous.

2 cars can pass. 1.8 + 1.8 = 3.6. The road is 4.4, 4.4 - 3.6 = .8

CramCycle

QuinDixie wrote: »

Bicycle's do not belong on roads with car's, truck's etc.
Bicycle's belong in cycle lanes and there should be real investment in providing more walking and cycling paths, including between rural towns. convert more old rail track as well.

Forget the space, cost and general impossibility of this, even in countries with enourmous cycling networks do not have complete segregation on all roads.

Ireland should be more friendly to cyclists and walkers.

Ireland is actually, it just so happens that there are a small number of motorists, cyclists and pedestrians who are not friendly to anyone.

I am looking at this just from a safety point, there is some drivers that are stone mad.

Surely the aim should be to target these "stone mad" drivers and get them off the road, as they will be a danger to other motorists as well as cyclists and pedestrians.

Lumen

Rackstar wrote: »

I've made my point and hopefully some fellow cyclists take note that what they are doing is dangerous.

2 cars can pass. 1.8 + 1.8 = 3.6. The road is 4.4, 4.4 - 3.6 = .8

I don't get it.

Are you saying it's dangerous for two competent cyclists to ride next to each other within a 2.1m lane?

Beasty

Like it or not, there are some roads in Ireland where it is simply not possible to give 1.5m clearance to riders even in single file. Cyclists should show due consideration to other road users where there is not a reasonable passing space. If that entails going single file (even if that does not facilitate 1.5m of clearance) then what's the issue? That scenario is one problem I have with this whole 1.5m thing. There's no point in imposing rules that simply cannot be enforced just to placate some. In my experience motorists can pass with less than 1.5m clearance if they do so carefully. It's more a matter of common sense than legislation given the roads we have

RainyDay

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I think I came across her a few weeks ago in central dublin. She tried to squeeze between the car ahead of her in the centre of the road and the cycle lane - blocking the passage of about 7 or 8 cyclists. I drew up along side - her designer sun glasses nearly fell of her head as she pressed the down button on her window.

"Excuse me, but your parked in the bike lane and there's about 7 or 8 of us trying to get by" to which she replied "well, I'm trying to get to work". And proceeded to roll her window back up.

Obviously just a casual group of cyclists out for a lesurely cycle at 8am in her self-entitled little world.

I came across her at Bank of Ireland Dundrum recently, where she stopped on a double-yellow line, adjacent to the right turn into the old shopping centre. When I tapped on the window and pointed out that her choice of parking place meant that when traffic stopped to turn right into the centre, everyone else was held up and unable to progress. She told me that she was just waiting for her son to get off the Luas. I told her that now, we're all waiting for your son to get off the Luas.

a148pro

CramCycle wrote: »

Ireland is actually, it just so happens that there are a small number of motorists, cyclists and pedestrians who are not friendly to anyone.

I don't think the primary problem is bad motor users, its lack of safe facilities in the first place. Safe facilities would protect us from bad motor users. But even good motor users will make mistakes, and sooner or later mistakes are going to be a problem for cyclists who have to share the road with cars.

Of course bad motor users make sharing the road with them altogether worse.

I haven't cycled a whole amount abroad but I understood the ideal European model to be segregation. And the best facilities in this country are segregated.

Contrary to popular belief I don't believe it would be actually that hard to create segregated bike lane highways through Dublin. You'd just have to be willing to try it, take the risk and impose sacrifices on others. There are plenty of streets that we could just close off to cars. And you know what, I suspect after people were finished complaining about it they might actually enjoy it more. A bit like the smoking ban, we all assume 'that'll never work' it wasn't proper and now we take it for granted, enjoy it and it has completely changed our view of what is normal social conduct.

I'm reminded of the maxim that the more roads you build the more cars that there will be on those roads. The reverse of this is that the harder you make it to drive on our roads the less people will drive on them. The extent to which we prioritize car traffic in our towns and cities is actually astonishing when you think about it.

Streetwalker

QuinDixie wrote: »

Bicycle's do not belong on roads with car's, truck's etc.
Bicycle's belong in cycle lanes and there should be real investment in providing more walking and cycling paths, including between rural towns. convert more old rail track as well.
Ireland should be more friendly to cyclists and walkers.
I am looking at this just from a safety point, there is some drivers that are stone mad.

There are some cyclists that are stone mad.

RobFowl

Rackstar wrote: »

I've made my point and hopefully some fellow cyclists take note that what they are doing is dangerous.

2 cars can pass. 1.8 + 1.8 = 3.6. The road is 4.4, 4.4 - 3.6 = .8

But you said you need to leave 1.5 m to pass

QuinDixie

CramCycle wrote: »

Forget the space, cost and general impossibility of this, even in countries with enourmous cycling networks do not have complete segregation on all roads.

Ireland is actually, it just so happens that there are a small number of motorists, cyclists and pedestrians who are not friendly to anyone.

Surely the aim should be to target these "stone mad" drivers and get them off the road, as they will be a danger to other motorists as well as cyclists and pedestrians.

fair points,
the ultimate plan should be to remove all bicycles from interaction with cars.
Lets start with roads where the speed limit is 100kmph and 80kmph, there is no way bicycles should be anywhere near those roads.
There is alot of old track, trails, disused train tracks that could be converted quite easily and cheaply.

Lumen

QuinDixie wrote: »

fair points,
the ultimate plan should be to remove all bicycles from interaction with cars.
Lets start with roads where the speed limit is 100kmph and 80kmph, there is no way bicycles should be anywhere near those roads.

I hope you mean remove all cars from interaction with bicycles. :pac:

I occasionally ride almost the full length of the N11 from Dublin to Wexford. The fast bits of the N11 with a wide, well-surfaced hard shoulder are just about the safest, most relaxing roads I ride on.

QuinDixie

Streetwalker wrote: »

There are some cyclists that are stone mad.

Who cares if he is, what real damage can he do.
A poor driver can kill someone.
just because he was held up for a minute.

daragh_

QuinDixie wrote: »

fair points,
the ultimate plan should be to remove all bicycles from interaction with cars.
Lets start with roads where the speed limit is 100kmph and 80kmph, there is no way bicycles should be anywhere near those roads.
There is alot of old track, trails, disused train tracks that could be converted quite easily and cheaply.

Surely we should look at why anyone in a car needs to hammer up a Boreen at 80kmph before we create a secondary system of roads just for bikes?

QuinDixie

Lumen wrote: »

I hope you mean remove all cars from interaction with bicycles. :pac:

I occasionally ride almost the full length of the N11 from Dublin to Wexford. The fast bits of the N11 with a wide, well-surfaced hard shoulder are just about the safest, most relaxing roads I ride on.

That is not the case for the majority of roads with those speed limits.

do you have teenage kids, would you let them do it.

ThisRegard

QuinDixie wrote: »

Bicycle's do not belong on roads with car's, truck's etc.

It's stone mad suggestions like this which is part of what could make Ireland unfriendly to cyclists.

Lumen

QuinDixie wrote: »

That is not the case for the majority of roads with those speed limits.

do you have teenage kids, would you let them do it.

Are you asking me to think of the children?

I'd have no problem with my kids cycling on the N11 as long as they let me draft them the whole way down.

ThisRegard

QuinDixie wrote: »

Who cares if he is, what real damage can he do.
A poor driver can kill someone.
just because he was held up for a minute.

A poor driver forced to kill someone?

By the way, most of us here are drivers from multi car households.

OldBean

QuinDixie wrote: »

Bicycle's do not belong on roads with car's, truck's etc.
Bicycle's belong in cycle lanes and there should be real investment in providing more walking and cycling paths, including between rural towns. convert more old rail track as well.
Ireland should be more friendly to cyclists and walkers.
I am looking at this just from a safety point, there is some drivers that are stone mad.

See, saying cycling is wrong, and should be taken off the road altogether and put far away from where I want/need to go on my bike because of all these dangers on the road is never going to be the solution.

If you want to argue safety, argue that the mad drivers and the bad drivers are put off the road. Argue that reasonable education exists for all road users.

It always really annoys me when the blame is thrown at cyclists for being there, rather than the "mad drivers" for being mad drivers. Horrible victim blaming/shaming that reminds me of people claiming women dressing 'provocatively' deserve sexual advances.

marty_crane

Lumen wrote: »

I occasionally ride almost the full length of the N11 from Dublin to Wexford. The fast bits of the N11 with a wide, well-surfaced hard shoulder are just about the safest, most relaxing roads I ride on.

Where are you cycling the rest of the time, Delhi?

I am forced to use the N11 as a means to an end as I live beside it!! If I had any choice I wouldn't go next nor near it. It's a horrendous road to cycle on and those same hard shoulders are responsible for about 70% of my punctures.

Lumen

marty_crane wrote: »

I am forced to use the N11 as a means to an end as I live beside it!! If I had any choice I wouldn't go next nor near it.

Which bit?

QuinDixie

ThisRegard wrote: »

A poor driver forced to kill someone?

By the way, most of us here are drivers from multi car households.

I think your taking my point wrong, I am not blaming cyclists for anything.
Read all the posts.

marty_crane

Anywhere from Bray to Ashford

QuinDixie

OldBean wrote: »

See, saying cycling is wrong, and should be taken off the road altogether and put far away from where I want/need to go on my bike because of all these dangers on the road is never going to be the solution.

If you want to argue safety, argue that the mad drivers and the bad drivers are put off the road. Argue that reasonable education exists for all road users.

It always really annoys me when the blame is thrown at cyclists for being there, rather than the "mad drivers" for being mad drivers. Horrible victim blaming/shaming that reminds me of people claiming women dressing 'provocatively' deserve sexual advances.

You like cycling on roads and that is it.
Fair enough,
I think cyclists deserve better and there should be more infrastructure for them, so they do not interact with vehicles as much as possible.
Your last bit about victim blaming/sexual advances have no bearing on this subject.

doozerie

Rackstar wrote: »

Because its not safe. Cyclist 1 is half a metre out from ditch, there's 1.5 metres over to cyclist 2 and I need to leave a 1.5m gap. My car is 1.8 meters and the road is 4.4m

They are cycling two abreast and there is a 1.5 metre gap between them? Crikey, exactly how large is this breast?

galwaycyclist

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A20761628%3A0%3A%3A

If anyone feels the need .... (I'm not sure what that need is)

Lemming

Rackstar wrote: »

I've made my point and hopefully some fellow cyclists take note that what they are doing is dangerous.

2 cars can pass. 1.8 + 1.8 = 3.6. The road is 4.4, 4.4 - 3.6 = .8

And what speed would these two cars be passing each other? I sincerely doubt either would be hoofing it along a boreen with the foot down to the floor whilst passing at such margins ...

So really, what it would appear to come down to is the following:

1. Two particular cyclists not having any regard for other road users if one of them is so far across the road as to be occuping space on the "other half" of the road so to speak.
2. You slavishly insisting on 1.5m even when the circumstances do not permit it.
3. Absolute lack of common sense by all involved.

CramCycle

QuinDixie wrote: »

fair points,
the ultimate plan should be to remove all bicycles from interaction with cars.
Lets start with roads where the speed limit is 100kmph and 80kmph, there is no way bicycles should be anywhere near those roads.
There is alot of old track, trails, disused train tracks that could be converted quite easily and cheaply.

And none of them go near my house in the middle of nowhere in Longford. Are you suggesting we build segregated track for everywhere. The cost, time, environmental impact and most of all waste if money is incomprehensible.

QuinDixie wrote: »

do you have teenage kids, would you let them do it.

I cycle parts of the N11 every week, see kids well under teenage years on it.

QuinDixie wrote: »

You like cycling on roads and that is it.
Fair enough,
I think cyclists deserve better and there should be more infrastructure for them, so they do not interact with vehicles as much as possible.

I think cyclists deserve better, all road users do, this means getting rid of the dangerous ones, not making it worse by segregating everyone, which does not teach youth sense and respect on the road and to an extent encourages others to act even stupider IMO.

Trojan

I want flying cars, damnit.

Streetwalker

QuinDixie wrote: »

Who cares if he is, what real damage can he do.
A poor driver can kill someone.
just because he was held up for a minute.

It's that attitude that makes all cyclists seem like fruitcakes. It's NOT okay for cyclists to act the maggot on the road.

Lumen

Streetwalker wrote: »

It's that attitude that makes all cyclists seem like fruitcakes. It's NOT okay for cyclists to act the maggot on the road.

What has one opinion to do with all cyclists?

mirrormatrix

Rackstar wrote: »

And that's exactly my point. There isn't room to safely travel 2 abreast but it's still happening.

You're sitting 2 abreast in your car aren't you? Why don't you go and petition for a single file car which has everybody sitting in a line behind each other? Car narrows from 1.8m to 0.9m. Overtaking problem solved.:rolleyes:

Macy0161

QuinDixie wrote: »

Lets start with roads where the speed limit is 100kmph and 80kmph, there is no way bicycles should be anywhere near those roads.

So bicycles banned from pretty much every road in the state outside of urban areas and motorways?

Not too many disused tracks, trails (most walking trails have a bike ban) around where I live. Any of the back roads and lanes have an 80kph limit, but even if they were reduced, how you'd get to them without going on an 80kph road I don't know? Although maybe the solution in this case is a widespread reduction in speed limits below 80?

We can't even manage a footpath to the village limits in most villages in Ireland (never mind beyond like in many countries), but we're going to have money for segregated cycle paths to accommodate impatient drivers?

spyderski

QuinDixie wrote: »

Lets start with roads where the speed limit is 100kmph and 80kmph, there is no way bicycles should be anywhere near those roads.

You really didn't think that one through, did you? :rolleyes:

spyderski

I tweeted Cyclist.ie last night to confirm that the guy on the LaaahveLiane did indeed represent them. They said "yes, we are certified cycling skills instructors under a UK Dot scheme."

The guy was the most useless advocate for anything I've ever heard on public media. He didn't seem to know that the speed limits didn't apply to bikes, instead waffling about "grey areas" and "5kmh faster than the speed limit" etc. He completely missed the opportunity to inform listeners that cyclists did not have to use bike paths, and are entitled to ride 2 abreast. And don't get me started on "racers are a different breed".

If this bluffer is the best "cycling advocate" we have, this whole drivers/cyclist thing is only going to get worse.......

QuinDixie

spyderski wrote: »

You really didn't think that one through, did you? :rolleyes:

If they were banned from those roads, who would it affect only racer cyclists groups who do it for pleasure.
You rarely see any other cyclist on those roads.

QuinDixie

spyderski wrote: »

I tweeted Cyclist.ie last night to confirm that the guy on the LaaahveLiane did indeed represent them. They said "yes, we are certified cycling skills instructors under a UK Dot scheme."

The guy was the most useless advocate for anything I've ever heard on public media. He didn't seem to know that the speed limits didn't apply to bikes, instead waffling about "grey areas" and "5kmh faster than the speed limit" etc. He completely missed the opportunity to inform listeners that cyclists did not have to use bike paths, and are entitled to ride 2 abreast. And don't get me started on "racers are a different breed".

If this bluffer is the best "cycling advocate" we have, this whole drivers/cyclist thing is only going to get worse.......

This is the problem, why would a cyclist not use a lane if one is provided.

Lemming

QuinDixie wrote: »

If they were banned from those roads, who would it affect only racer cyclists groups who do it for pleasure.
You rarely see any other cyclist on those roads.

Plenty of people go out for leisurely cycle excursions in nice weather too ...

Also, not to state the captain obvious bit, but many of "those roads" may be 80/100kph but are not suited to such speeds. "Just because you can doesn't mean you should", and much of that comes down to poor driver attitude & judgement. One of the first things you learn when driving is "you drive as the conditions allow", with "conditions" meaning everything from the condition of your own vehicle & driving abilities, to the weather, road surface, visibility, obstacles, and other road traffic, to include cyclists.

ThisRegard

QuinDixie wrote: »

You rarely see any other cyclist on those roads.

Where are you based ? In the cities you see people commuting and just having an oul jolly all the time. In fact you'd probably see more commuters than those out training.

QuinDixie

QuinDixie wrote: »

This is the problem, why would a cyclist not use a lane if one is provided.

Many are in a poor state of repair for starters.

QuinDixie

ThisRegard wrote: »

Where are you based ? In the cities you see people commuting and just having an oul jolly all the time. In fact you'd probably see more commuters than those out training.

Not Dublin city, next time your in the country you will see few people cycling.
But I have been to Dublin city many times and for a population of a million there is not many cyclists on display.
In both cases it is too dangerous,

spyderski

QuinDixie wrote: »

This is the problem, why would a cyclist not use a lane if one is provided.

Because they're :

1.Covered In glass & debris
2.Potholed & unmaintained
3.Meandering up & down in front of peoples' driveways like a roller coaster
4.Designed so that cyclists have to yield to traffic turning left/emerging onto the road every 50 yards
5.come to abrupt ends, depositing riders into narrow shared lanes

Thats 5 off the top of my head. If you have ever indeed used one you should know what I mean, or else you weren't paying attention.

ThisRegard

QuinDixie wrote: »

Not Dublin city, next time your in the country you will see few people cycling.
But I have been to Dublin city many times and for a population of a million there is not many cyclists on display.
In both cases it is too dangerous,

I'm in the country (as in rural areas, not Ireland) on a daily basis. And in no case is it too dangerous. Some roads may be hairier than others, but I don't think it's too dangerous as an adult.

spyderski

QuinDixie wrote: »

Not Dublin city, next time your in the country you will see few people cycling.
But I have been to Dublin city many times and for a population of a million there is not many cyclists on display.
In both cases it is too dangerous,

Dude, perhaps you should refrain from posting idiotic and untrue comments on something you clearly have no clue about.

Chips Lovell

Hi folks,
Can I remind people, if they haven't already, to read the forum charter before posting. In particular, section 8:

There are lots of places on the internet where you can have a rant about cyclists. This isn't one of them. This is a place for people with an interest in cycling to discuss cycling. If you treat it as a venue for holding all cyclists to account for perceived or actual misbehaviour by some, you can expect to find your access swiftly removed. In short, we are not your punching bag. If you really do want do want an answer to your gripe, do a search. The usual topics, such as cycle lanes, cycling two abreast etc. have been discussed, ad nauseam, many, many times before

If this applies to you, you may be more at home ringing Liveline than posting here.

Thanks

Felix 17

I was very surprised that nobody on Joe Duffy referred to the RSA video that features on TV: www(DOT)rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Campaigns/Current-road-safety-campaigns/Cyclists/
I can't post the url fully, as I don't have enough posts under my belt.

Many callers made had a major issue with groups of cyclists not going single file. It takes a lot longer to pass a group going single file then it takes to pass groups going two abreast, and a motorist who is unable to pass the entire group may pull in, forcing cyclists in the middle of the group into the ditch and possibly to brake sharply.

I dislike the attitude that seems to say cyclists are an alien race, who never drive themselves.

tomasrojo

QuinDixie wrote: »

Not Dublin city, next time your in the country you will see few people cycling.

Reminds me of this article I saw over on irishcycle.com, which shows cycling showing healthy growth in Dublin (even excluding trips that are confined to the city centre, which means omitting city centre residents and dublinbike trips). Dr. Mike McKillen's comment below mentions how poorly cycling is doing pretty much everywhere else.

http://irishcycle.com/2015/04/13/10000-people-on-bicycles-crossing-dublins-canals-in-morning-rush-hour/

I'm not passing comment on anything else anyone has said. Just an excuse to shoehorn in this interesting report.

pelevin

I've only read a few words of the first post of this thread but I'll just add: One of the great holy laws of life is Do not let Joe Duffy into your life in any shape or form.

ThisRegard

pelevin wrote: »

I've only read a few words of the first post of this thread but I'll just add: One of the great holy laws of life is Do not let Joe Duffy into your life in any shape or form.

It's a cross I bear of being a lone worker and by afternoon needing the company of some (shrill) human voices.

RobertFoster

ThisRegard wrote: »

It's a cross I bear of being a lone worker and by afternoon needing the company of some (shrill) human voices.

We can all chip in and get you the Bee Gees greatest hits if you like.