Chip and Dust Extraction

BenAtar

Hi Guys, I'm hoping for advice re identifying a very good chip and dust extraction system for a workshop. The workshop comprises a room in a large building. The room size is 9m long x 2.5m wide x 3m high. There will be 3 machines initially, two lathes and a 8" bandsaw, with a table saw and others ( don't know yet ) to be added later in the year. Three or four machines on at the same time.
Looking online etc, I realise this is a BIG technical subject. I'm hoping someone has been there and done similar and is generous enough to share. Also, the budget is small, circa €250. Mission impossible? Any help appreciated, Tks.

recipio

BenAtar wrote: »

Hi Guys, I'm hoping for advice re identifying a very good chip and dust extraction system for a workshop. The workshop comprises a room in a large building. The room size is 9m long x 2.5m wide x 3m high. There will be 3 machines initially, two lathes and a 8" bandsaw, with a table saw and others ( don't know yet ) to be added later in the year. Three or four machines on at the same time.
Looking online etc, I realise this is a BIG technical subject. I'm hoping someone has been there and done similar and is generous enough to share. Also, the budget is small, circa €250. Mission impossible? Any help appreciated, Tks.

Have you browsed www.axminster.co.uk ? There is a lot of technical information but I think your budget is too small for a central extractor type setup.

BenAtar

Hi Recipio,
Tks for your reply.....I will visit Axminster.co.uk shortly. Budget will have to increase methinks. The hose run is about 27 feet. Is it best to connect up at mid- point of the run...14 feet either way?

galwaydude18

BenAtar wrote: »

Hi Recipio,
Tks for your reply.....I will visit Axminster.co.uk shortly. Budget will have to increase methinks. The hose run is about 27 feet. Is it best to connect up at mid- point of the run...14 feet either way?

Why not buy a single bag dust extractor that you can wheel around the workshop until you can afford a bigger system. I have a scheopach one and it's great

BenAtar

galwaydude18 wrote: »

Why not buy a single bag dust extractor that you can wheel around the workshop until you can afford a bigger system. I have a scheopach one and it's great

Hi Galwaydude,
The thing is there will be two or three machines manned and in use at the same time. Otherwise I would do as you suggest.

recipio

BenAtar wrote: »

Hi Recipio,
Tks for your reply.....I will visit Axminster.co.uk shortly. Budget will have to increase methinks. The hose run is about 27 feet. Is it best to connect up at mid- point of the run...14 feet either way?

Yes, its best to keep the runs as short as possible. Include as much smoothbore piping as possible as the plastic extractor hose offers resistance.
I don't have central extraction but my next workshop will.
Steel piping seems to be best as it can be grounded and eliminates the risk of static electricity with soil pipes.

BenAtar

recipio wrote: »

Yes, its best to keep the runs as short as possible. Include as much smoothbore piping as possible as the plastic extractor hose offers resistance.
I don't have central extraction but my next workshop will.
Steel piping seems to be best as it can be grounded and eliminates the risk of static electricity with soil pipes.

Tks for your input, I appreciate same. 😉

Calahonda52

OP: given the multiple users at same time suggests that they are employees so therefore this subject is in a completely different (mine)field.

My guess is that the Sheppach single bag mentioned is really a chip extractor and the bag lets out a certain amount of dust.

I have one:)

The dust is the issue here so you can think about either replacing the air the room at enough ACH's to keep the dust level down to acceptable levels, this means u are losing heated air in winter.
else u go for a ceiling mounted re-cirulation job and replace the filters: see axminter site

else u go whole hog as mentioned.
250 won't go anywhere here for multiple machines

recipio

The Scheppach takes a cartridge top as do a few of the Axminster extractors. Well worth getting - I have a big Axminster job and the amount of dust that gathers in the paper lining is always a surprise.

BenAtar

Thank you Calahonda and Recipio.......looks like a bigger budget is required, chips are easy to extract, dust is a lot more troublesome/costly to extract. The Axminster site is very good on this topic, tks again.

recipio

BenAtar wrote: »

Thank you Calahonda and Recipio.......looks like a bigger budget is required, chips are easy to extract, dust is a lot more troublesome/costly to extract. The Axminster site is very good on this topic, tks again.

Check out the book 'Dust control made simple ' by Sandor Nagyszalanczy. It comes with its own DVD. I think every machine should be extracted including benchtop tools like disk sanders.
The Carpentry Store in Naas stock Axminster machines - I haven't visited so far.

Calahonda52

recipio wrote: »

The Scheppach takes a cartridge top as do a few of the Axminster extractors. Well worth getting - I have a big Axminster job and the amount of dust that gathers in the paper lining is always a surprise.

Is this plus the big floppy bag or is it a different design or is my machine too old?

Are the filters replaceable or washable
Thanks

recipio

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Is this plus the big floppy bag or is it a different design or is my machine too old?

Are the filters replaceable or washable
Thanks

Its been available for years but is an accessory. They are well worth the money. They are not washable - they have a kind of paper filter inside them . Dunno about the Scheppach but the Axminster ones have a handle to crank from time to time to knock the dust out of the filter.

BenAtar

Delving into the topic of chip/dust extraction brought me to a website I would highly recommend. The detailed info on this website is impressive. But it is also a can of worms, in that it brings home how difficult / costly it is to deal with fine dust extraction in even a small workshop.
It only takes a small amount of sawdust to be a health risk, whereas huge amounts of sawdust (relatively speaking) are generated in a small workshop.

I'm talking about an independent iconoclastic guru, name of Bill Pentz. His website is

billpentz.com.

His health was compromised due to an allergic reaction to sawdust. Being an engineer with time on his hands, he set about learning all about DC extraction. It's all there on his website.

BenAtar

recipio wrote: »

Check out the book 'Dust control made simple ' by Sandor Nagyszalanczy. It comes with its own DVD. I think every machine should be extracted including benchtop tools like disk sanders.
The Carpentry Store in Naas stock Axminster machines - I haven't visited so far.

This book is very good, informative. Tks Recipio.

recipio

BenAtar wrote: »

This book is very good, informative. Tks Recipio.

Welcome.
have a look on youtube at 'Andrew Pitts' workshop -- just fantastic ! ( Sorry, must learn to post real links )

Interested Bystander

BenAtar wrote: »

Hi Guys, I'm hoping for advice re identifying a very good chip and dust extraction system for a workshop. The workshop comprises a room in a large building. The room size is 9m long x 2.5m wide x 3m high. There will be 3 machines initially, two lathes and a 8" bandsaw, with a table saw and others ( don't know yet ) to be added later in the year. Three or four machines on at the same time.
Looking online etc, I realise this is a BIG technical subject. I'm hoping someone has been there and done similar and is generous enough to share. Also, the budget is small, circa €250. Mission impossible? Any help appreciated, Tks.

Original post was years ago I know but if anyone reads this in the meantime it might help them.

I have experience with this as i've a workshop at home with more than 10 years and it was very dusty as I have a planer, table saw, bandsaw, lathe, drum sander and more. I've tried loads of dust extractors and took on one or two bigger second hand collectors too. They all seemed to collect to a certain level and then chug along or die off slowly and none ever really made the grade. I have spent far far more than €250 and failed, believe me, you need to be realistic. A proper system to extract from a few machines is around 5 figures.
Most of the cheaper bag and vacuum extractors they sell on sites like axmminster or in woodworking shops are a disaster altogether. They are no more than stopgap solutions that come with a shed load of problems and I've had them all. I would only use them for extracting from smaller machines now or power tools if they can save dust becoming airborn and here's why.
First of all, they can't service more than one machine at a time, secondly the suction is usually very poor to begin with and is made worse when the filter bags / cartridges clog with sawdust and lastly they rarely have a cleaning down mechanism to refresh and clear out the filters. This leads to you ending up with whats basically a glorified hoover with flaccid suction thats nowhere near its listed spec and struggles to collect the most basic stuff.

Not naming anyone but I have visited many woodworking shops in my locality and while they usually have excellent service and advice on tools and machinery and loads more, none of them seemed to really have any grasp of the whole dust extraction side of things.

My solution came from a very unlikely source. I was chatting to my neighbours young lad one day and he said they had a collector inside in the woodwork room in the school so he asked where they got it.
Turns out it was manufactured and put in by a Cork company, Mae Air systems.
So without going into too much detail, I asked them to quote for what I needed, they aren't cheap but they thought of everything so I went ahead with what they recommended and haven't looked back since. One of the best parts is that my workshop is tight so they were able to house the unit in galv to put it outside and ran ducting out to it so I don't see it or hear it. That was in early 2015 too so its been working away hassle free for over 4 years now.

If anyone wants to know any more details, just ask.
I'm determined to spread the word about these lads as they are a good Irish company and if I can help fellow woodworkers to stop wasting money buying rubbish from the UK or wherever I will do that.

tabby aspreme

Do you have 3 phase power , or is it possible to run a planer with proper extraction on single phase

Interested Bystander

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Do you have 3 phase power , or is it possible to run a planer with proper extraction on single phase

Yes, msot of my machinery is 3 phase and the MAE AIr dust extractor is too. I'd say yes you could run an extractor for a planer on single phase but the reduction in power would mean anything you get will pobably only have the suction to be a dedicated extractor for the planer. And they're heavy on dust so make sure you get something that has a decent collectin bin.
If you have more machinery besides that planer and plan on running it and any other machines that need extraction at the same time, I'd seriously consider a proper central extration system if you think you would get the value out of it.

kadman

I've had single phase , single bag extraction units on both single phase spindles,
as well as planer/thicknessers, individually.

The single bag unit was a 3 hp motor. Itv was useless on both machines. Both machines
overwhelmed its capabilities. But the extractor was great at hoovering up the workshop.

So it sat in the corner unused for the last 10-15 years, and was sold a week ago for 100 euro.

I'd be very surprised if you could get useful extraction, single phase.

But I'm open to correction.

chillyspoon

I hadn't heard of MAE Air Systems before - it's great to see a local company producing that kind of machinery here.

I was reminded of this thread when I changed the filter in my air cleaner today. The attached photo shows the used and replacement filters. The used one is from about 6 or 7 months (you're meant to change it more often) of hobby level of work, with the full spectrum of materials and processes, hand tools and machinery. From high dust / low chip (sanding) to high chip / low dust (jointing) and everything between to MDF, chipboard, softwood, plastics and hardwood.

As a hobby level woodworker but one with relatively steady output, extraction is something that has grown organically for me, I have extraction of some sort on every machine (with some swapping of hoses).

While I think it's possible to maintain a reasonably healthy environment on a budget, it's definitely compromised when compared to a commercial solution designed for a specific space and toolset, and I won't be getting rid of my masks just yet that's for sure!

The biggest game changers for me have been the addition of cyclones and adding the air cleaner. Adding a cyclone to my only 4" extraction has almost completely eliminated blockages on my planer.

I was stunned at the sudden and really noticable reduction in surface dust when I started running the air cleaner on its lowest setting for an hour after each workshop session.

Interested Bystander

chillyspoon wrote: »

I hadn't heard of MAE Air Systems before - it's great to see a local company producing that kind of machinery here.

I was reminded of this thread when I changed the filter in my air cleaner today. The attached photo shows the used and replacement filters. The used one is from about 6 or 7 months (you're meant to change it more often) of hobby level of work, with the full spectrum of materials and processes, hand tools and machinery. From high dust / low chip (sanding) to high chip / low dust (jointing) and everything between to MDF, chipboard, softwood, plastics and hardwood.

As a hobby level woodworker but one with relatively steady output, extraction is something that has grown organically for me, I have extraction of some sort on every machine (with some swapping of hoses).

While I think it's possible to maintain a reasonably healthy environment on a budget, it's definitely compromised when compared to a commercial solution designed for a specific space and toolset, and I won't be getting rid of my masks just yet that's for sure!

The biggest game changers for me have been the addition of cyclones and adding the air cleaner. Adding a cyclone to my only 4" extraction has almost completely eliminated blockages on my planer.

I was stunned at the sudden and really noticable reduction in surface dust when I started running the air cleaner on its lowest setting for an hour after each workshop session.

That picture says it all.

Even the MAE lads admitted to me that its impossible to catch 100% of airborne dust being created.
So your talking about different degrees of dust content in the air because you have both freshly created airborn dust and then existing uncaptured dust that has settled and is disturbed as you work and move around in your workspace to become airborn again (if you haven't cleaned it up).

Your photo shows theres no substitute for a proper set up. I've had serious problems with my lungs which is my main motivation for getting it in and the difference since I got my new system in is massive. I still have problems but things have improved a lot and I wouldn't wish it on anyone so ya keep wearing that mask!!

Keeks

What is your setup chillyspoon?

chillyspoon

It's all very standard, low end stuff and readily attainable, the core is a Record Power twin motor extractor but even it is a tiddler in terms of their range. You can see most of the set up in the last picture on this article where I described rebuilding the Record Power machine after a little - ahem **clears throat** - accident https://www.chillyspoon.com/blog/2019/8/14/rebuilding-my-record-power-dust-extractor

1. The Record Power pulls through an Oneida Dust Deputy and is used for the tablesaw & planer/thicknesser.
2. Then there's a 1400w Parkside wet n dry vacuum. These things are unsung heroes, great suction. This gets used for loads of stuff, handheld power tools, bandsaw, general vacuum duties (floor, bench etc) and as the under table suction for the router table. It pulls through a cyclone I bought on Banggood.com for about $18, which works just as well as the Oneida but you need a bit of work to get going since it doesn't come with all the kit; I've written up a bit of detail, with some photos of that build here: https://www.chillyspoon.com/blog/2019/8/11/adding-a-cheap-dust-cyclone
3. Another hero - a 13 year old Hoover Telios that already did a good life of service around the house. Keep an eye out for older vacuums that were made before the energy saving laws changed. This thing is 1800w and still going strong. I use through a Triton DCA300 separator (something I wouldn't recommend when general purpose extraction is needed). It's mainly used for the fence extraction on the router table and a little localised general cleanup.
4. Next is the joker in the pack. I tried buying a second one from China and at the last second decided that a blue one would be fun (seriously you couldn't make this up) and didn't read the dimensions on the blue one's specs.. turned out to be a micro cyclone; just 6" tall - designed to be used in an array as far as I know. For the craic I hooked it up to an Arro paint bucket for collection and started using it on the drill press with a crappy 550w ash vac (17 euro from Rutlands!) and couldn't believe my luck when it turned out to work a treat. I use it almost every day, weighs nothing and can be carried around the workshop in just a moment .. today I was belt sanding a rough sawn and irregular chunk of oak and used this little guy to vac up the dust each time I stopped, so that I could see progress more clearly. Here's a photo of this little chap, I think it cost just 9 euro or thereabouts on Banggood.com: https://www.instagram.com/p/B1MtxERIEen/
5. Record Power AC400 - I really wasn't sure about whether or not I'd get real value from an air cleaner and it hurt the wallet because it meant that other purchases had to go back on the "saving up for" pile but I'm so glad that I did. It made a huge difference as I mentioned in my earlier comment. To date I've got the best prices on Record Power stuff from Raitt's up in Donegal by the way.

I control all of the above using standard household remote control socket adapters marketed at the elderly and those with disabilities. They work an absolute treat.

The reason why I wouldn't recommend the Triton DCA300 is that the boon of its integrated fine dust filter is immediately forgotten when it clogs up after a couple of hours use. It's really best suited for quick jobsite work. For a workshop you're much better off with a cyclone placed before any fine filters. I was utterly blown away with the amount of material that the little blue cyclone combined with the cheapo ash vac removes, almost nothing gets through to the vac.

That's about it really - it's a Frankensetup but it's good enough for my DIY budget and needs for now anyway.

With the benefit of hindsight, if I was advising another DIYer getting started it'd be to start with a good shop vac, with a cheap cyclone separator like I put together in my build link above and an air cleaner. Then invest in a good chip remover later when you invest in the machinery that needs the higher volume movement.

Keeks

It sounds like you have 4 different dust extractions setups dependent on what tools you are using.....

chillyspoon

That's exactly what it is Keeks.

I'd love a remotely stored single system, ducted and blast gated to each machine, with a couple of extra outputs and blast gates for powered hand tools to jack into but that's far beyond my budget (and I'd have nowhere to put it), so it's affordable and more convenient to put in a few small vacuums with cyclones beneath benches and machine stands, each dedicated to one or two tools to reduce hose swapping time.

Someone starting out can buy just one to get going and take it from there because some extraction is always better than no extraction, and I can upgrade what I've got one by one over time with more powerful vacuums that have better output filters.

bamayang

Would a record power DX4000 supply enough suction for a full workshop piped with 4 or 5 blast gates. Going to say bandsaw, table saw, planer/t, chop saw and lathe area?

recipio

bamayang wrote: »

Would a record power DX4000 supply enough suction for a full workshop piped with 4 or 5 blast gates. Going to say bandsaw, table saw, planer/t, chop saw and lathe area?

Not a hope. You realise that these small extractors have a brush motor and are designed for extracting fine dust - not chips and dust. ? If you are on a budget get a basic dust and chip extractor ( with a cartridge top ) and move it around.

bamayang

I wouldn’t have said that unit was designed for fine dust only? I’ve seen them used with planer thicknessers. Is that not a reasonable application of them?

the_pen_turner

bamayang wrote: »

I wouldn’t have said that unit was designed for fine dust only? I’ve seen them used with planer thicknessers. Is that not a reasonable application of them?

Yes they are designed for both. I have one. It's great but the barrel is small. I only use it now on a belt sander the rest have a different set up.
I would go for the 5000. That's wall mounted and better suited to a piped system.

They would work for a small system with a few small machines fairly ok I would think

recipio

bamayang wrote: »

I wouldn’t have said that unit was designed for fine dust only? I’ve seen them used with planer thicknessers. Is that not a reasonable application of them?

It actually comes down to the nature of chippings - they tend to clog if simply extracted without any separation at the extractor. I have both extractor types and found that the Record simply could not cope with chippings - it is high pressure low volume after all - like a big vacuum. You will get a chip extractor for less than the price of the Record and for me that's a no brainer.