STEM

artanevilla

I'm doing a STEM course. There was a (supposedly) big STEM recruitment fair on in the RDS last week, with about five companies there and none from my sector. Take from that what you will.

denhaagenite

I went into a convent secondary school around 97/ 98 I guess. The junior cycle was fine but the senior cycle was a joke. No tech drawing, no applied maths. There were about 7 maths classes- 1 honours with 60 students, 6 pass with between 12 and 15 students each. The honours maths teacher bullied people out of the class until there were only 15 - 20 girls left. She was unwilling and unable to teach, and the school wanted "x" amount of A1s in the subject to give the impression that they could teach it. The only way to do this was to only give the people who were gifted in the subject the opportunity to sit the exam. In addition, there were other teachers who would have been much more suitable to teach Honours Maths than this wagon, but due to her time in the school and the politics, they weren't given the opportunity. In the 5 years I was in that school, she went on maternity leave no less than 4 times. I've spoken to my sister who is 5 years younger than me and it was pretty much the same story in her time (apart from the maternity leave I hope :eek:).

I left school without a Leaving Certificate, due to family circumstances but probably more to do with the complete lack of interest from the school in educating me. I returned to a PLC a few years later, receiving an all honours Leaving Certificate, worked abroad for a few years and I'm currently doing a Science degree. Take that, Irish education system.

I think the biggest problem with education in Ireland is the lack of professionalism. People went into teaching, primary and secondary, because of holidays and the job-for-life status, not because of their love for educating. The terms need to be longer, from primary right up until third level. This rubbish about the ASTI not wanting to correct some of the Junior Cert stuff is quite frankly rubbish. If they are so unprofessional that they can't be trusted to correct students work, have it submitted to a central database under student codes and have an allocated number of anonymous papers that they have to correct. They should all be correcting papers, not just the ones who are trying to make extra money. There should be no extra money for it either, no other profession has 4 months holidays as standard.

The only people who should be teaching STEM subjects are the ones who are able to teach it, ie people with STEM degrees and a further education of some sort in education itself. STEM might be a new term but they are not new subjects and the only reason they seem more important now is because they were never really afforded any importance in the past. They were important then, they are important now and they will be more important in the future. In a year I will be a STEM graduate off my own back because I had the mental and financial resources to get there by myself. Others who are more suited to it (and gifted at it) than I may get lost and that is a loss to all of us.

zeffabelli

Sleepy wrote: »

Well, lets face it, at the very least, a degree in a STEM subject will teach one to be highly numerate, literate and capable of organised thought. Even if, and it's a massive if, careers in Science, IT and engineering dry up in Ireland, aren't they going to be more employable than someone with a degree in the liberal arts?

While a certain level of graduates will always be required in the Liberal Arts, I think we provide far too many of such places in our third level institutions simply because they're cheap to teach.

Someone who is not a systemiser is going to suck at most levels of IT.

Most left brain products will be outsourced to Bangladesh.

A lot of people will arts degrees are employed and employable. Your perspective is myopic.

What you are trying to create here is an aspergers nation. (Silicon valley.)

Science and technology is about wonder...and that is what the educators should be imparting.

denhaagenite

zeffabelli wrote: »

A lot of people will arts degrees are employed and employable. Your perspective is myopic.

What you are trying to create here is an aspergers nation. (Silicon valley.)

Science and technology is about wonder...and that is what the educators should be imparting.

I do think there are too many mix ups between what should be Science and what should be Arts subjects though. Life Sciences should include Law and Psychology. I'm doing a semester in Ireland and Applied Psychology is an Arts subject, which I really think is ridiculous, especially when they expect us to write exams and essays under the Science format. I'm doing a Social Science module which is being taught like history.

Science is about more than technology and medicine, it's about being able to produce hypotheses that are repeatable. Law, for example, sets precedent and thus must be usable for other similar circumstances. That should be the focus.

zeffabelli

zeffabelli wrote: »

What you are trying to create here is an aspergers nation. (Silicon valley.)

Not only is there is an implicit autism put-down in your comment, you seem to be under an impression that scientifically-inclined, and numerate individuals, tend to be autistic.

Really now? Aspergers rates are probably less than 10 per 10,000. Aspergers is an incredibly rare syndrome, even among highly-numerate individuals.

It's bad enough making sneering remarks about those who actually have Aspergers, but insinuating that numerate people also probably have Aspergers suggests you need to catch-up on some reading skills yourself.

rainbow kirby

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Girls schools are still dreadful at encouraging the hard sciences. My old school didn't replace their one physics teacher when he retired about 5 years after I did my Leaving Cert, and they were very reluctant to let girls in my sister's year (Leaving Cert 2011) take 2 sciences. Meanwhile, all the help in the world given to business, art, music etc. :rolleyes: I will never send any future daughter of mine to an all-girls Catholic school.

Maths needs to be pushed even harder if you ask me - a good foundation at secondary and early university level opens a lot of doors and it forms part of a good general education. For some reason, quite a few Irish people seem to be proud of their mathematical illiteracy and it's a bit ridiculous.

While I agree with most of that why push a subject on someone who does not have the talent, aptitude or interested in the subject?

I don't understand the attitude of being proud of mathematical ignorance either.

zeffabelli

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Not only is there is an implicit autism put-down in your comment, you seem to be under an impression that scientifically-inclined, and numerate individuals, tend to be autistic.

Really now? Aspergers rates are probably less than 10 per 10,000. Aspergers is an incredibly rare syndrome, even among highly-numerate individuals.

It's bad enough making sneering remarks about those who actually have Aspergers, but insinuating that numerate people also probably have Aspergers suggests you need to catch-up on some reading skills yourself.

http://gawker.com/5885196/the-tech-industrys-asperger-problem-affliction-or-insult

http://www.kennethrobersonphd.com/silicon-valley-breeding-ground-aspergers-syndrome/

http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers_pr.html

Here is some reading for you.

denhaagenite

mariaalice wrote: »

While I agree with most of that why push a subject on someone who does not have the talent, aptitude or interested in the subject?

How do you know if they do or not if the playing field isn't level for boys and girls?

c_man

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Why can't they introduce an ECDL-equivalent of coding, along with an advanced ECDL in aspects of coding - if this were subsidised and promoted by the schools, I would imagine many students would take it up.

God no. I can only imagine the complete balls up that the government would make of that.

The Coder Dojos and the like are the way to go. Give kids a chance with it, see who likes it and help them further an interest in the area.

denhaagenite

c_man wrote: »

God no. I can only imagine the complete balls up that the government would make of that.

The Coder Dojos and the like are the way to go. Give kids a chance with it, see who likes it and help them further an interest in the area.

Agreed, plus the people involved are doing it for a love of their skill and a wish to impart it. For free. Open source is huge in technology, it's a culture at this stage.

c_man

denhaagenite wrote: »

Agreed, plus the people involved are doing it for a love of their skill and a wish to impart it. For free.

Exactly, plus they actually tend to know a thing or two from the real world (lots being software engineers etc day to day). Imagine having people in it only for the paycheck, demanding to go on certified courses to get a piece of paper saying they can teach for-loops in C# (and of course the whole stack would be Microsoft specific. Just as the EDCL was hijacked.)

zeffabelli

denhaagenite wrote: »

Agreed, plus the people involved are doing it for a love of their skill and a wish to impart it. For free. Open source is huge in technology, it's a culture at this stage.

Back in the dinosaur ages, we had to learn computer languages like basic.

NO ONE has done anything with it since!! There isn't one programmer in my entire alumni base.

denhaagenite

It's just a real pity that there aren't other initiatives like Coder Dojo in other areas of STEM. There are literary, music, food etc etc festivals and things everywhere for children but you don't see that done with medicine and engineering.

Sleepy

zeffabelli wrote: »

Someone who is not a systemiser is going to suck at most levels of IT.

Most left brain products will be outsourced to Bangladesh.

A lot of people will arts degrees are employed and employable. Your perspective is myopic.

What you are trying to create here is an aspergers nation. (Silicon valley.)

Science and technology is about wonder...and that is what the educators should be imparting.

I never said arts graduates were unemployable, I said I believe our universities create too many of them. It's understandable as it's a lot cheaper to cram 400 students into a lecture hall to study Sociology, English Literature, Irish, History, Geography etc. than it is to provide the necessary lab facilities to educate STEM students.

The reality is that most Arts graduates don't end up working in careers that reflect their degrees. That to me, seems rather a waste of a degree, surely it would be better to educate people in something that they can actually find gainful employment in rather than having a disproportionate amount of the population with a third level qualification in interesting, yet financially worthless subjects?

As long as we're encouraging people to chase their dreams, no matter how unsuited they are to them, I'm not sure a market lead, points based approach to education is appropriate. Our economy can only ever support a given number of TV presenters, journalists, musicians, PR consultants, Irish teachers, actors, social media "gurus", sociology and politics lecturers, fashion designers, historians, archaeologists, social policy advocates etc. yet we seem happy to waste public money funding more places on such courses than there will ever be jobs for such graduates.

Our society has become far too aspirational when it comes to career choices imo. Few dream of working in software development, implementation and support, Office Administration, Quality Assurance, etc. Yet these "mundane" jobs are the ones our economy can support. We're not all special snowflakes that get to work fulfilling jobs, we don't all get to lead dream lives where we can work a few hours a day in a gourmet coffee shop wearing a designer business casual ensemble before picking up the kids from the childminders in our 4x4 to take them for a three week "educational experience" in South East Asia.

tritium

denhaagenite wrote: »

How do you know if they do or not if the playing field isn't level for boys and girls?

Why are you worried about the boy/ girl split when there's a wider problem of subject choice in under resourced schools for both genders?

denhaagenite

Sleepy wrote: »

I never said arts graduates were unemployable, I said I believe our universities create too many of them. It's understandable as it's a lot cheaper to cram 400 students into a lecture hall to study Sociology, English Literature, Irish, History, Geography etc. than it is to provide the necessary lab facilities to educate STEM students.

I agree wholeheartedly, the university I'm in has far too many Arts courses and I really struggle to see how anyone is going to translate it into gainful employment. However I think there are two problems- number one is that they are not suited to university education, they should be doing something else and that something else is simply not available in Ireland. Not everyone needs a degree. Number two is that they aren't given all the necessary information to figure out what they are best at, what they are suited to and what they can sustainably do as a career.

denhaagenite

tritium wrote: »

Why are you worried about the boy/ girl split when there's a wider problem of subject choice in under resourced schools for both genders?

I'm not worried about a boy/ girl split, I'm worried about Tech Drawing/ Applied Maths only being available to boys who would possibly be better suited to Home Ec and vice versa. To be honest I think single sex education should be completely abolished. I'm talking about people who would be highly valuable being left behind, not any specific gender.

zeffabelli

Sleepy wrote: »

I never said arts graduates were unemployable, I said I believe our universities create too many of them. It's understandable as it's a lot cheaper to cram 400 students into a lecture hall to study Sociology, English Literature, Irish, History, Geography etc. than it is to provide the necessary lab facilities to educate STEM students.

The reality is that most Arts graduates don't end up working in careers that reflect their degrees. That to me, seems rather a waste of a degree, surely it would be better to educate people in something that they can actually find gainful employment in rather than having a disproportionate amount of the population with a third level qualification in interesting, yet financially worthless subjects?

As long as we're encouraging people to chase their dreams, no matter how unsuited they are to them, I'm not sure a market lead, points based approach to education is appropriate. Our economy can only ever support a given number of TV presenters, journalists, musicians, PR consultants, Irish teachers, actors, social media "gurus", sociology and politics lecturers, fashion designers, historians, archaeologists, social policy advocates etc. yet we seem happy to waste public money funding more places on such courses than there will ever be jobs for such graduates.

Our society has become far too aspirational when it comes to career choices imo. Few dream of working in software development, implementation and support, Office Administration, Quality Assurance, etc. Yet these "mundane" jobs are the ones our economy can support. We're not all special snowflakes that get to work fulfilling jobs, we don't all get to lead dream lives where we can work a few hours a day in a gourmet coffee shop wearing a designer business casual ensemble before picking up the kids from the childminders in our 4x4 to take them for a three week "educational experience" in South East Asia.

You are probably right, but at present isnt this all tied into a point system with the LC also?

Industries change too. In 15 years we don't know what the market will demand? We don't know that all the techie jobs wont be outsourced to India...

We just don't know.

IF the issue is one of "public money," maybe a better idea is to privatise third level...

Or get back to a place where the BA is no longer a universal default setting and we see things like more specific trade schools?

It is fashion though, chefs are highly employable in fact most of them could have the choice of two or three jobs plus its well paid once you have experience, yet you don't see the same emphasise on training more chefs in the way that IT is lauded, revered and pushed as a career choice.

zeffabelli

mariaalice wrote: »

It is fashion though, chefs are highly employable in fact most of them could have the choice of two or three jobs plus its well paid once you have experience, yet you don't see the same emphasise on training more chefs in the way that IT is lauded, revered and pushed as a career choice.

If they increase the supply of techies, there is more competition and employers can pay less because it becomes less specialised.

Subjects do go through fashions. Once upon a time it was learning foreign languages.

denhaagenite

mariaalice wrote: »

It is fashion though, chefs are highly employable in fact most of them could have the choice of two or three jobs plus its well paid once you have experience, yet you don't see the same emphasise on training more chefs in the way that IT is lauded, revered and pushed as a career choice.

Don't agree with this. Chefs and others working in the hospitality sector here can and do get paid training through Fáilte Ireland, this isn't available to those wishing to study STEM. I also struggle to understand what this has to do with the importance of STEM.

denhaagenite

denhaagenite wrote: »

Don't agree with this. Chefs and others working in the hospitality sector here can and do get paid training through Fáilte Ireland, this isn't available to those wishing to study STEM. I also struggle to understand what this has to do with the importance of STEM.

Because there has to be a balance in everything even if give excellent teaching and good subject choice there are still going to be student who's talent are not in STEM subject.

denhaagenite

mariaalice wrote: »

Because there has to be a balance in everything even if give excellent teaching and good subject choice there are still going to be student who's talent are not in STEM subject.

And? That's why I'm not studying to be a brain surgeon, a chef, a history teacher. Not everyone has to go the direction of STEM, but those with the ability, aptitude and desire should be given the chance and currently they're not. The reason it's important in Ireland is because there are a lot of opportunities in the field. As with the hospitality sector, which is actually encouraging takeup of courses by offering it as a paid education.

kneemos

denhaagenite wrote: »

Don't agree with this. Chefs and others working in the hospitality sector here can and do get paid training through Fáilte Ireland, this isn't available to those wishing to study STEM. I also struggle to understand what this has to do with the importance of STEM.

No more or less important than any other area of education.
If we have a nation of techies they'll all be on minimum wage.

Sleepy

zeffabelli wrote: »

You are probably right, but at present isnt this all tied into a point system with the LC also?

Yep, I referenced it in my post. The points system is woeful at allocating college places.

Industries change too. In 15 years we don't know what the market will demand? We don't know that all the techie jobs wont be outsourced to India...

We just don't know.

Lots of professions will be outsourced to developing economies in the future. IMO, it's a fact of globalisation that, ultimately, we in the west will need to adjust to less affluent lifestyles as the third world develops and claims their share of the worlds resources.

Sure, industries change, but not at the pace that you might imagine. While the face of IT has changed dramatically over the past 20 years, the skills required to work in it haven't. It's still, at it's core, about understanding logic and problem-solving. Skills which are useful in the vast majority of workplaces.

IF the issue is one of "public money," maybe a better idea is to privatise third level...

Most 3rd level institutions are already private are they not? I'm all for state funding of education. It's the one true "silver bullet" solution in the world imo. In a world of finite resources, however, we need to be careful about how many of our students we're educating in subjects that have a poor payback level to the society funding that education. Education for the sake of education is a great thing but we can't all pursue our hearts desire (personally speaking, I can't imagine I'd be paying anything like the income tax I currently do had I pursued my interest in etymology rather than one in Business/IT, in fact, it's likely I'd be a drain on, rather than a contributor to, the exchequer).

Or get back to a place where the BA is no longer a universal default setting and we see things like more specific trade schools?

There's definitely something to this, the German apprenticeship model certainly seems to have lessons worth learning and adapting to Irelands needs.

zeffabelli

Sleepy wrote: »

Yep, I referenced it in my post. The points system is woeful at allocating college places.


Lots of professions will be outsourced to developing economies in the future. IMO, it's a fact of globalisation that, ultimately, we in the west will need to adjust to less affluent lifestyles as the third world develops and claims their share of the worlds resources.

Sure, industries change, but not at the pace that you might imagine. While the face of IT has changed dramatically over the past 20 years, the skills required to work in it haven't. It's still, at it's core, about understanding logic and problem-solving. Skills which are useful in the vast majority of workplaces.


Most 3rd level institutions are already private are they not? I'm all for state funding of education. It's the one true "silver bullet" solution in the world imo. In a world of finite resources, however, we need to be careful about how many of our students we're educating in subjects that have a poor payback level to the society funding that education. Education for the sake of education is a great thing but we can't all pursue our hearts desire (personally speaking, I can't imagine I'd be paying anything like the income tax I currently do had I pursued my interest in etymology rather than one in Business/IT, in fact, it's likely I'd be a drain on, rather than a contributor to, the exchequer).


There's definitely something to this, the German apprenticeship model certainly seems to have lessons worth learning and adapting to Irelands needs.

Well I can tell you, if I had chosen IT I'd never get a job, and if I did get one, I'd be fired and end up a drain on the exchequer anyway, because I just don't think like a systemiser.

You may as well ask me to be a portrait artist. I'd never be able to do it.

People need to do what they CAN do.

Do you know why I have a smart phone? For music. Why people have kindle? For books- without these other flaky people producing things, much our technology would not be in demand, so when you think about it, the IT industry needs the flaky people.

Look around you, at your coffee cup, the clothes you are wearing, the phone you use, EVERYTHING is arts and science.

denhaagenite

kneemos wrote: »

No more or less important than any other area of education.
If we have a nation of techies they'll all be on minimum wage.

Firstly, it's not my intention that STEM education should be salaried. Secondly, STEM is not just Technology, it's Science, Engineering and Medicine aswell.

imitation

zeffabelli wrote: »

You are probably right, but at present isnt this all tied into a point system with the LC also?

Industries change too. In 15 years we don't know what the market will demand? We don't know that all the techie jobs wont be outsourced to India...

We just don't know.

IF the issue is one of "public money," maybe a better idea is to privatise third level...

Or get back to a place where the BA is no longer a universal default setting and we see things like more specific trade schools?

I dont think the outsourcing threat is ever goibg to badly effect IT, my experience is its grand for level 1 support, but the more complicated it gets the more hassle, expense and outright lies you get and that will always be the case if the company is in another country. Plus why do a course and spend 15 years hoping the job market turns in your favor, having the degree and 15 years of no experience isnt much use.

STEM does need more of a focus, as somebody who works in it I can say the primary and secondary systems are woeful, and 3rd level is often under resourced.

It was one having a high percent of degree holders having arts when it was uncommon to have a degree, now that they are common the ratio needs to be looked at, STEM qualified people are one of the reasons we have done so well with MNCs.

I do agree trades and craftsmen are vital too, I would be inclined

zeffabelli

imitation wrote: »

I dont think the outsourcing threat is ever goibg to badly effect IT, my experience is its grand for level 1 support, but the more complicated it gets the more hassle, expense and outright lies you get and that will always be the case if the company is in another country. Plus why do a course and spend 15 years hoping the job market turns in your favor, having the degree and 15 years of no experience isnt much use.

STEM does need more of a focus, as somebody who works in it I can say the primary and secondary systems are woeful, and 3rd level is often under resourced.

It was one having a high percent of degree holders having arts when it was uncommon to have a degree, now that they are common the ratio needs to be looked at, STEM qualified people are one of the reasons we have done so well with MNCs.

I do agree trades and craftsmen are vital too, I would be inclined

Honestly primary school is still analogue and about 40 years behind the times.

What do the educators expect.

denhaagenite

Sleepy wrote: »

Most 3rd level institutions are already private are they not? I'm all for state funding of education. It's the one true "silver bullet" solution in the world imo. In a world of finite resources, however, we need to be careful about how many of our students we're educating in subjects that have a poor payback level to the society funding that education. Education for the sake of education is a great thing but we can't all pursue our hearts desire (personally speaking, I can't imagine I'd be paying anything like the income tax I currently do had I pursued my interest in etymology rather than one in Business/IT, in fact, it's likely I'd be a drain on, rather than a contributor to, the exchequer).


There's definitely something to this, the German apprenticeship model certainly seems to have lessons worth learning and adapting to Irelands needs.

The lesson is we need to get to know our children better. If we do, then we will be able to teach them how to decide which direction they need to be looking in. We don't need to be teaching them what courses are the easiest, the best employment, the most lucrative.