Galway motorists really grinding my gears

?Cee?view

J o e wrote: »

RSA - "Going straight ahead (or any exit to the left of 12 o’clock)" - "Approach in the lefthand lane (unless road markings say otherwise)"



But there is a sign. And it shows to treat Salthill as straight.

And to go straight you use the left lane.

Look, we're not going to agree so there's probably not point taking this further off topic.

joeKel73

?Cee?view wrote: »

And to go straight you use the left lane.

No not in this case because as mentioned above "Going straight ahead (or any exit to the left of 12 o’clock)" - "Approach in the lefthand lane (unless road markings say otherwise)".

Motorists in the left lane going straight here grind my gears so it's well on topic! :P

Iwannahurl

J o e wrote: »

No not in this case because as mentioned above "Going straight ahead (or any exit to the left of 12 o’clock)" - "Approach in the lefthand lane (unless road markings say otherwise)".

Motorists in the left lane going straight here grind my gears so it's well on topic! :P

The photos below illustrate the key facts very clearly, though some elements are open to interpretation and/or dispute.

1. The signage clearly shows that the Salthill exit is straight on, which in the normal course of events warrants the left-hand lane. The signage also shows the Cuan Glas and Carraig Ard (minor) exits.

2. The lines, colours and surface treatments indicate the different traffic lanes. We'll ignore cyclists' Yield markings for the moment (or perhaps forever).

3. The road markings show where the bus lane ends and the general traffic lane begins.* The arrows do not specifically indicate which lane to take for traversing the roundabout. Their apparent purpose is to show that general traffic should take the appropriate lane. IIRC there are no other directional arrows on the approach or on the roundabout itself, which suggests that the signage and the general "rules" for roundabouts apply. Therefore, it seems that the correct procedure for traversing the roundabout, if taking the first exit towards Cuan Glas or continuing straight on towards Salthill, is to enter the left lane after the bus lane ends and then take the desired turn. Carraig Ard and the WDR are after 12 o'clock and therefore require taking the right-hand lane to make a right turn.

Is it a well-designed junction? No. Does it cater well for pedestrians, cyclists and bus users? No. is it self-explanatory for all road users, including motorists? No. Is it typical of Irish road engineering? Yes. Does anybody important give a toss? Sigh...








* Anybody know why the word "BUS" is upside down?

snubbleste

Those photos are gas!
Where is the cyclist supposed to go, when the lane ends abruptly.
The BUS written facing wrong direction, Is it in russian? :cool:
Or is it S is union with ᗺ, S∩ᗺ

Iwannahurl

Looking again at photo #3, I can see that the arrows could be interpreted as meaning the left-hand lane is Left Turn Only, as suggested by the 'kink' in the left arrow.

Are such arrows in the official Lines & Signs manual?

Apart from pointlessly shunting Salthill-bound cyclists towards Cuan Glas, the layout also requires buses to turn go across left-turning and straight-on traffic in order to reach the WDR.

This junction is an utter mess, during peak morning traffic especially.

snubbleste wrote: »

Those photos are gas!
Where is the cyclist supposed to go, when the lane ends abruptly.
The BUS written facing wrong direction, Is it in russian?
Or is it S is union with ᗺ, S∩ᗺ

Irish road designs seems to allow for cyclists going the 'wrong way' on cycle paths. However, the usual giveaway is a Yield marking on the cycle lane, but against the normal flow of traffic. So the upside down BUS is perhaps not directed at cyclists. Crossing pedestrians, perhaps? Thing is, if there's a big and very obvious bus in that spot, then the BUS sign will be obscured. On the other hand, if there is no bus at the stop then the upside down BUS marking conveys no extra information of any particular use.

dastardly00

Fantastic photos Iwannahurl, fair play.

I think the photos do show that the motorist can be easily confused on this approach, and could interrupt the arrows painted on the road to mean different things.

I use the Deane roundabout a lot on my car journeys, and I always try to 'expect the unexpected' (as the ad says).

Iwannahurl

J o e wrote: »

No not in this case because as mentioned above "Going straight ahead (or any exit to the left of 12 o’clock)" - "Approach in the lefthand lane (unless road markings say otherwise)".

Motorists in the left lane going straight here grind my gears so it's well on topic! :P

It looks like you're correct.

AFAICS the relevant road marking is M130L, as described in the Traffic Signs Manual:

At the end of a bus lane, a double-headed Bus Lane Ends Arrow, M 130, should be provided to indicate that the nearside lane may be used by all traffic. In cases where the nearside lane is restricted to left turning traffic, the left-turn variant M 130L should be used. If the offside lane becomes a right-turn only lane, the right turn variant M 130R should be used.

dastardly00

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It looks like you're correct.

AFAICS the relevant road marking is M130L, as described in the Traffic Signs Manual:

At the end of a bus lane, a double-headed Bus Lane Ends Arrow, M 130, should be provided to indicate that the nearside lane may be used by all traffic. In cases where the nearside lane is restricted to left turning traffic, the left-turn variant M 130L should be used. If the offside lane becomes a right-turn only lane, the right turn variant M 130R should be used.

Do the M 130L and M 130R images appear properly for you in the Traffic Signs Manual?
They are just blank grey boxes for me!

joeKel73

Surely it's pretty clear from the left pointing arrow?

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Are such arrows in the official Lines & Signs manual?

Yes it's in the Traffic Signs Manual...

Chapter 7 - Road Marking

7.7.15 - At the end of a bus lane, a double-headed Bus Lane Ends Arrow, M 130, should be provided to indicate that the nearside lane may be used by all traffic. In cases where the nearside lane is restricted to left turning traffic, the left-turn variant M 130L should be used. If the offside lane becomes a right-turn only lane, the right turn variant M 130R should be used.

So, what's an M 130L marking?...

Unfortunately the manual seems to have a rendering issue on the manual PDF where it defines the "left and Right Turn Variants" of the arrow...



BUT thankfully in Chapter 10 (Typical Applications) it's referenced again in an example...

Iwannahurl

J o e wrote: »

Surely it's pretty clear from the left pointing arrow?

Yes it's in the Traffic Signs Manual...

Chapter 7 - Road Marking

7.7.15 - At the end of a bus lane, a double-headed Bus Lane Ends Arrow, M 130, should be provided to indicate that the nearside lane may be used by all traffic. In cases where the nearside lane is restricted to left turning traffic, the left-turn variant M 130L should be used. If the offside lane becomes a right-turn only lane, the right turn variant M 130R should be used.

So, what's an M 130L marking?...

Unfortunately the manual seems to have a rendering issue on the manual PDF where it defines the "left and Right Turn Variants" of the arrow...

BUT thankfully in Chapter 10 (Typical Applications) it's referenced again in an example...

Except in this case it's on an approach lane to a roundabout, where there are different expectations. The only place to turn left at the T-junction illustrated above is at the side road, so the markings indicate where the bus lane becomes a left-turn lane.

It's a general rule in roads engineering that road layouts should be self-explanatory. I don't think it's very clear in this case. However, now that I know what the road markings mean, if I ever drive through that roundabout to Salthill from the SQR I will use the appropriate lane.

snubbleste wrote: »

Those photos are gas!
Where is the cyclist supposed to go, when the lane ends abruptly.
The BUS written facing wrong direction, Is it in russian?
Or is it S is union with ᗺ, S∩ᗺ

The Traffic Signs Manual suggests that the upside down BUS marking is intended for use with contra-flow bus lanes, which doesn't apply in this case:

The road markings are as described for with-flow bus lanes, with a continuous Bus Lane Line, part of RRM 024, separating the bus lane from other lanes. However, additional ‘LÁNA BUS’ worded markings, together with Directional Arrows, RRM 004, should be provided in such locations that they are readable by road users travelling in the direction of general traffic or joining from side roads.

dastardly00

I do believe you are correct Joe!

Iwannahurl

I think we're going to have to call J o e from now on...

?Cee?view

Now just to complicate things further...

I checked this morning. Car Driving (B) tests take this roundabout on one of the test routes. They come up the S. Quirke road and across to Threadneedle direction and candidates are expected and required by the RSA examiners to take the left lane.

If nothing else, this discussion shows how haphazard sign and road design is in Galway.

joeKel73

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Except in this case it's on an approach lane to a roundabout, where there are different expectations.

I only showed that example as it had the M 130L road marking displayed. That marking is relevant anywhere at "the end of a bus lane" "where the nearside lane is restricted to left turning traffic".

Sconsey

I think Joe has it right too (though I've been using that junction wrong for as long as it's been there), based on the road markings the left lane is left turn only, I would guess that the council used the wrong road marking myself but it is what it is, I'll start using the right hand lane for straight ahead at that roundabout.

I would have expected it to be a M130 road marking, like this one out by the GMIT.

Iwannahurl

?Cee?view wrote: »

Now just to complicate things further...

I checked this morning. Car Driving (B) tests take this roundabout on one of the test routes. They come up the S. Quirke road and across to Threadneedle direction and candidates are expected and required by the RSA examiners to take the left lane.

If nothing else, this discussion shows how haphazard sign and road design is in Galway.

It doesn't do a lot for my already shaky confidence in ADI training standards either.

J o e wrote: »

I only showed that example as it had the M 130L road marking displayed. That marking is relevant anywhere at "the end of a bus lane" "where the nearside lane is restricted to left turning traffic".

My point was that at a left turn such as the one illustrated there is no ambiguity because there is only one way to do it. Roundabouts are more complicated (there being only one rule in the statute book), hence the recurring arguments. Just try posting this in Motors!

?Cee?view

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It doesn't do a lot for my already shaky confidence in ADI training standards either.

It's worse. This is the examiners' requirements, not the ADIs' interpretation!

bobbyss

What i find difficult about this roundabout is how tight it is after the first exit. Is it possible for two vehicles to exit that roundabout at the same time side by side , one in left lane going towards T Hill and the other turning right to Kingston? I have never done it and I would always give way. Otherwise cars will be colliding.

Iwannahurl

Except, all thanks to sign M130L, only vehicles turning into Cuan Glas from the SQR will be in the left-hand lane.

Road users coming from SQR and who are heading towards Salthill, Carraig Ard and the WDR will all be in the right-hand lane.

Those coming from the WDR and heading to Salthill and Carraig Ard will also be using the right-hand (inner) lane.

Nobody will ever obstruct a Yellow Box. Everybody will be signalling correctly. Public transport will not be held up. Pedestrians and cyclists, including children on their way to school, will be able to traverse the junction safely and conveniently.

I have a dream.

joeKel73

bobbyss wrote: »

What i find difficult about this roundabout is how tight it is after the first exit. Is it possible for two vehicles to exit that roundabout at the same time side by side , one in left lane going towards T Hill and the other turning right to Kingston? I have never done it and I would always give way. Otherwise cars will be colliding.

No it's only one lane until half-way over that road.

joeKel73

Another junction that causes a lot of confusion...

Suppose you're coming from Parkmore / Galway Technology Park and you want to get to Oranmore, Dublin Motorway or Old Monivea Rd / Dunnes.

As you approach the T-Junction the road splits into 2 lanes, one for left and one for right. You want to go right so take the right lane...



You continue into the traffic and your lane selection is reinforced again...



Now you're almost at the junction and suddenly the left lane is also for turning right. And since you're taking a left or straight at the next junction you're now in the wrong lane...



Even the late sign is misleading as it shows both lanes leading to the N6 while the left lane is the correct lane for the N6 and the right lane will bring you in the dual carriageway towards the Tuam Road.

Bing_IRL

J o e wrote: »

Another junction that causes a lot of confusion...

Suppose you're coming from Parkmore / Galway Technology Park and you want to get to Oranmore, Dublin Motorway or Old Monivea Rd / Dunnes.

As you approach the T-Junction the road splits into 2 lanes, one for left and one for right. You want to go right so take the right lane...

You continue into the traffic and your lane selection is reinforced again...

Now you're almost at the junction and suddenly the left lane is also for turning right. And since you're taking a left or straight at the next junction you're now in the wrong lane...



Even the late sign is misleading as it shows both lanes leading to the N6 while the left lane is the correct lane for the N6 and the right lane will bring you in the dual carriageway towards the Tuam Road.

This one really drives me mad. You get all the parkmore traffic that know the story taking the lane to the right and then switching across to go left at Briarhill.

dastardly00

J o e wrote: »

Another junction that causes a lot of confusion...

A complete cluster-fúck of a junction.

There is a real need for road signage in advance in order to tell you what lanes you need to be in for both that junction and the Briarhill junction.

alias no.9

Bing_IRL wrote: »

This one really drives me mad. You get all the parkmore traffic that know the story taking the lane to the right and then switching across to go left at Briarhill.

People should be choosing lanes such that they don't need a further lane change before the roundabout. Most traffic using the road is habitual, they know the story but there's no shortage of assholes.

dastardly00

alias no.9 wrote: »

People should be choosing lanes such that they don't need a further lane change before the roundabout. Most traffic using the road is habitual, they know the story but there's no shortage of assholes.

What roundabout? Do you mean the traffic lights (at the Briarhill junction)?

yaledo

dastardly00 wrote: »

A complete cluster-fúck of a junction.

Just to add to the cluster, I was cycling from the airport, to turn right at that junction (towards Medtronic). Seems like the traffic lights there only trigger if there's a car waiting. After 1.5 cycles of the sequence, I just gave up & cycled through on red.

snubbleste

yaledo wrote: »

Just to add to the cluster, I was cycling from the airport, to turn right at that junction (towards Medtronic). Seems like the traffic lights there only trigger if there's a car waiting. After 1.5 cycles of the sequence, I just gave up & cycled through on red.

Yeah, it's an issue all across town & the country

joeKel73

yaledo wrote: »

Just to add to the cluster, I was cycling from the airport, to turn right at that junction (towards Medtronic). Seems like the traffic lights there only trigger if there's a car waiting. After 1.5 cycles of the sequence, I just gave up & cycled through on red.

I've been caught here on the bike a good few times in the evening as there's very little traffic going up to Parkmore after 6pm. Emailed the council about it before but got no reply.

snubbleste

Traffic lights at QB/NewcastleRd junction will be out of action all week.
Much fun.

ronnie3585

snubbleste wrote: »

Traffic lights at QB/NewcastleRd junction will be out of action all week.
Much fun.

Fooking nightmare this morning. Not looking forward to a week of it with with the Novena thrown in for good measure:(