Ukrainian Conflict 2014 - ? (Take II)

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Next time, Ivan wants to make sure he's acting "legally".

https://news.vice.com/article/moscow-is-having-second-thoughts-about-giving-up-the-baltic-states

It's almost getting comedic now at this stage .
I'm sure the Baltics aren't going back to Russia any time soon

BoJack Horseman

A BBC crew are embedded with Russian Nazi movements, its on at the moment.

Show is called: "Far right & proud".

Worth checking out.

pablomakaveli

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

A BBC crew are embedded with Russian Nazi movements, its on at the moment.

Show is called: "Far right & proud".

Worth checking out.

Are they the guys from the Russian National Unity front? I've heard some of their members have been involved in Ukraine.

BoJack Horseman

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Are they the guys from the Russian National Unity front? I've heard some of their members have been involved in Ukraine.

They were at one of the featured marches.... Their swastika like emblem is easily recognised.

The presenter & his crew were primarily embedded with another Nazi group though.... Some incredible interviewing & attitudes on display...
One neo -Nazi told the interviewer (who was mixed race) that his offspring would be likely born deformed due to their mixed race.

The second episode of three will look at the Russian far-right attitudes towards homosexuality

Lemming

Some deeply disturbing attitudes on display; and I'm not referring to the stereotypical neo-nazis who didn't disappoint in their expected behaviour. There are three bits that I found particularly disturbing; the "fashion" office (which I suspect having watched that is Kremlin funded), that Blonde "social media model"'s video about how Russia would destroy the entire world if they didn't get their way - cue video montage of mushroom cloud, and when Reggie is at Vadim's home and being shown the knives. The way Vadim played with one of the knives and the look on his face just screamed "psycho" to me.

But the expected displays by neo-nazis aside, the insane levels of everyday casual xenophobia & paranoia on display were just mind boggling from what appeared to be otherwise intelligent, educated young people. Reggie had a very good term for it; a feeling of abject desolation.

stevejazzx

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

A BBC crew are embedded with Russian Nazi movements, its on at the moment.

Show is called: "Far right & proud".

Worth checking out.

Why exactly?
Do you believe this is just happening in Russia?
Honestly a bit of perspective would be nice in your posts.

• Here are the BBC embedded with Ukrainian Nazis
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCtt2iir9Iw
  Focusing mainly on an anti Russian slant of course. Propaganda of the piece is apparent to a 5 year old.
• Germany last year - 17,000 join far march
  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/22/anti-islam-march-germany-sing-christmas-carols
• UKIP in the UK
• The Scandinavian countries are seeing a surgein recent of far right attitudes.
  
  I could go on and on of course....
  

Russia just sentenced this guy to life in jail
http://www.timesofisrael.com/leader-of-russian-neo-nazi-group-sentenced-to-life/

BoJack Horseman

stevejazzx wrote: »

Do you believe this is just happening in Russia?

No.... Quote the post where I said that please.

a bit of perspective would be nice in your posts

The perspective is that Russia is the heartbeat of Europe's far-right, even providing funding to other far-right movements across Europe.

I'm as anti-Nazi as it gets, your welcome to your contrarian opinion though.

Russia just sentenced this guy to life in jail
http://www.timesofisrael.com/leader-of-russian-neo-nazi-group-sentenced-to-life/

Wow.... Someone was sent to jail for murder!
Cone back Russia, all is forgiven!
Such a thing has never happened elsewhere.

stevejazzx

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ah Bojack Horseman
I remember you from the Kiev debate where you posted countless anti Russian stuff without hanging around to back it up.
You once posted that Kremlin accidentally (sounds about right, stupid Russians) released the real Crimean referendum results?
I remember that. You swallow anti Russian propaganda whole and then regurgitate it.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The perspective is that Russia is the heartbeat of Europe's far-right.

Ok can you produce some evidence that Russia is the heartbeat of the far right Nazism in Europe?
By heartbeat I presume you mean is has significantly more numbers per capita of Nazis compared to to other countries?

Here the recent articles I can find from the search term
countries with highest rate of neo naziism

Germany and Sweden
http://europe.newsweek.com/neo-nazi-activity-rise-europe-316465
Mnetons

Sweden again
http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/09/16/how-a-former-neo-nazi-party-became-swedens-third-largest/

Now it appears to me that at the beginning of the Ukrainian conflict it was brought to light that the Ukraine had a dark past from WW2 with supporting the Axis power specifically the Nazis and had more than just some stray remnants left over from that.

It was at this time that a narrative began turning up in Western media focusing on Russia's Nazi issue
(***which by the way I am not denying it (Russia) has, just looking for some real perspective relative to other countries to see if it is worth posting or singling out Russia for such which I am sure it is not, hence my arguments here).

Wiki mentions 50,000 - 70,000 Nazis in Russia but alas no link.
Countless sources however will confirm that Russia endured unparalleled cost (25 million Russian deaths) in ridding Europe from Naziism during WW2.
Russia removed its troops from East Germany in the 1990's and the Soviet Union broke up - and as Chomsky said at the time

chomsky wrote:

the narrative that the Russians were coming was out the window, only a fool would have believed it.

I'm as anti-Nazi as it gets, your welcome to your contrarian opinion though.

My contrarian position?
That you are not as anti-Nazi as is gets? Technically that's what you said... but no... wait.... its a thinly veiled attempt at calling me a Nazi.
Well no wonder you as anti-Nazi as it gets - you're seeing them everywhere; well mostly Russia - but also people who disagree with on boards.
I am ignoring your slur by the way - it reveals only your own irrationality and poor debating techniques.

bjh wrote:

Wow.... Someone was sent to jail for murder!
Cone back Russia, all is forgiven!
Such a thing has never happened elsewhere.

Goryachev didn't murder the guy he gave the order evidently - anyway it was a link about policy which should have been apparent.

article wrote:

Goryachev, a former journalist and pro-Kremlin activist

Also
Russia created a anti Nazi UN resolution.
http://www.rt.com/news/207899-un-anti-nazism-resolution/
Only 3 countries from 118 voted against it.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/26/1347582/-US-votes-against-UN-resolution-condemning-glorification-of-Nazism#

BoJack Horseman

stevejazzx wrote: »

You once posted that Kremlin accidentally released the real Crimean referendum results?

I can't take credit for that lad....
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/
I can't fathom the child like naievity that would swallow the kremlins version of post-invasion elections.

Ok can you produce some evidence that Russia is the heartbeat of the far right Nazism in Europe?

Eh.... Their government!
Only Hungary comes close to being as far-right governed.

Whether its the paranoid ultra-nationalism, undermining of free media & expression, homophobia, xenophobia, hither youth style organisations et al.

I mean.... If you aren't a fan, why fund them far-right parties?

Your boy's got them all by the balls, after all, he's paying for them.
And they will goose-step to his tune.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/russia-europe-right-putin-front-national-eu

stevejazzx

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I can't take credit for that lad....
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/
I can't fathom the child like naievity that would swallow the kremlins version of post-invasion elections.

Naievity?
That's a word you've got to spell correctly when using otherwise, well, I'll let you put it together.
The forbes article was fully and completely debunked where I highlighted it in the Kiev thread you and ignored and are now re-posting it.
Astonishing display at head in the sand denialism.
Child like indeed.
Paul Roderick Gregory is an anti Russian bot - look at his articles there is nothing neutral about them - all explicitly anti Russian.

Heres the original breakdown of that forbes article you posted

Референдум
По мнению практически всех опрошенных специалистов и граждан:
подавляющее большинство жителей Севастополя проголосовали на референдуме за присоединение к России (явка 50-80 %), в Крыму по разным данным за присоединение к России проголосовали 50-60 % избирателей при общей явке в 30-50 %;

Translation: Based on the opinion of practically all interviewed (polled) experts and citizens - the great majority of Sevastopol (main city in Crimea, my insert) residents voted to join The Russian Federation (turnout 50-80%), in Crimea according various different sources 50 to 60% voted for joining the Federation with turnout of 30 to 50%.


Explanation

So, it's a poll or multiple poll analysis, no mention what kind of polls, who carried them out, how many citizens and what kind of experts were interviewed. In other words some plain BS and Forbes should have known better if that's their source. Though this is the Advisory Board of the Russian President they deal with analysis of existing data and they also did a rather shoddy job on the matter.

Conducted after the referendum. The reason the site posted this, and says this is a problem is because they believe that most of the voters came from the Sevastopol region. And from the opinions they gathered the investigators think that Russia should confirm the people's opinion on whether they want to be in the Russian Federation or if they want something else.
I made the same comment on the other post from the Forbes link, which apparently made up it's own numbers (as they don't relate to anything) and idea of the what the Russian website was trying to communicate.

Further
The President Council of Human Rights is an organization where all the opposition opinions are listened.
The article is called (urgent) Problems of Citizens of Crimea. The part about % states the following:
По мнению практически всех опрошенных специалистов и граждан:
подавляющее большинство жителей Севастополя проголосовали на референдуме за присоединение к России (явка 50-80 %), в Крыму по разным данным за присоединение к России проголосовали 50-60 % избирателей при общей явке в 30-50 %;
Based on opinion of the majority of interviewed specialists and citizens:
The majority of citizens of Sevastopol voted on referendum to join Russia (50-80% attending), in Crimea by different estimates favoured joining Russia 50-60% of voters with overall attendance of 30-50
Clearly no sources or methodology stated.
The author is member of Memorial organization. Which is officially a foreign agent funded by USA government and USA NGOs.
Apparently only 2 person from Memorial went to Crimea for 3 days. In those three days they conducted meetings with authorities, priests, journalists, civil rights activists, lawyers and citizens to inquire about the most urgent problems and necessities of the people. Conclusion: with time so limited and so many purposes, activities and meetings it was clearly impossible to conduct any type of detailed investigation on the matter. The numbers were taken from some source which is not listed in the article.

BoJack Horseman wrote:

Eh.... Their government!
Only Hungary comes close to being as far-right governed.



I mean.... If you aren't a fan, why fund them far right parties?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/russia-europe-right-putin-front-national-eu

So your evidence of Russia being the heart of neo Nazism is Czech Russian bank loan to a french nationalist party.
I mean its just really stretching.

K-9

Mod:

Seriously, cop on. Stop the kindergarten level digs, thanks.

Gatling

Seems all is not well in eastern Ukraine.
Cossak forces are been regularly ambushed by separatists forces wholm apparently want them out of East Ukraine all together.
So sent by Putin to fight and now been pushed out by the same rebels

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/world/europe/cossacks-face-reprisals-as-rebel-groups-clash-in-eastern-ukraine.html?referrer=

Dannyboy83

Here's How Russia Will Reclaim Its Future From Vladimir Putin
By Mikhail Khodorkovsky

Interesting & somewhat overly optimistic opinion piece by Khodorkovsky, examining how Russia may potentially roll back the monopolization of the economy, the destruction of freedoms and civil liberties and the liquidation of democratic institutions.

Also,
Putins War - English
The report which Boris Nemtsov was completing at the time of his murder, ultimately completed by Open Russia.

Count Dooku

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Also,
Putins War - English
The report which Boris Nemtsov was completing at the time of his murder, ultimately completed by Open Russia.

Any facts/fakes there, which wasn't known before it published?

Elmer Blooker

Washington based 4freerussia.org seems like a reliable source to me if you're looking for facts Count.
I think the only thing they want to "free" in Russia is what's under the ground!

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Washington based 4freerussia.org seems like a reliable source to me if you're looking for facts Count.
I think the only thing they want to "free" in Russia is what's under the ground!

Do you expect it to be based in the not free Russia.
People running it would die in sucides and accidents in a few weeks

Count Dooku

Gatling wrote: »

Do you expect it to be based in the not free Russia.
People running it would die in sucides and accidents in a few weeks

So why people who wrote so called "Nemtsov report" are still alive and still in Russia?

PopePalpatine

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Washington based 4freerussia.org seems like a reliable source to me if you're looking for facts Count.
I think the only thing they want to "free" in Russia is what's under the ground!

Have you ever considered that Putin has a hard-on for authoritarianism?

Dannyboy83

Count Dooku wrote: »

So why people who wrote so called "Nemtsov report" are still alive and still in Russia?

Wel, Boris Nemtsov has already been murdered, remember?
I don't think they can kill him again, although he may be airbrushed out of history like Kasparov

Zhanna Nemtsova, fled Russia
Khodorkovsky, fled Russia
Ksenia Sobchak, fled Russia

And 'Novaya Gazeta' itself is facing closure, after printing part of a swear word
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/novaya-gazeta-newspaper-critical-putin-faces-closure-after-warning-about-foul-language-1512077

It will be viewed as a humiliating defeat for Putin, the murder of 5 journalists and a lawyer couldn't intimidate Novaya Gazeta into silence, so they actually have to muzzle them by removing their mass media license.

Anyway, since we are on this topic, the Litvinenko Inquiry concluded on 31st July 2015 in London, the report is due soon.
Here is a particularly interesting document from the inquiry:
https://www.litvinenkoinquiry.org/evidence
INQ006067

TLDR version;

The rare radioactive substance used to poison Alexander Litvinenko in London could only have come from Russia, a world-leading expert has told the inquiry into the former spy’s murder.

Norman Dombey, emeritus professor of theoretical physics at the University of Sussex, said the polonium was produced at a closed nuclear facility in the city of Sarov, 450 miles south-east of Moscow. Its Soviet-era Avangard plant was the only place in the world with a polonium “production line”, he said.

“In my opinion, the Russian state, or its agents, was responsible for the poisoning,” Dombey said.

Dannyboy83

http://www.rferl.org/content/russian-television-whistleblowers-kremlin-propaganda/27178109.html
Former employees of Russia’s largest state-media holding have divulged behind-the-scenes details about what they portray as a Kremlin propaganda campaign to deliberately mislead and inflame television audiences with news coverage of the Ukraine conflict.

The Russian culture website Colta.ru this week published tell-all accounts by two people about their time working at VGTRK, Russia’s main state broadcasting company, whose networks included the national Rossia-1 channel.

Interesting article on how the Kremlin controlled a disinformation campaign on the covert war in Ukraine, based on the statements of 2 former employees/whisteblowers.

feargale

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

And 'Novaya Gazeta' itself is facing closure, after printing part of a swear word

Hasn't Putin himself publicly used unparliamentary language on occasion? A bit rich, I should think.

Count Dooku

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Zhanna Nemtsova, fled Russia
Khodorkovsky, fled Russia
Ksenia Sobchak, fled Russia

One oligarch and few kids of politicians, who was robbing Russia during Yeltsin rule
You can add Maria Gaidar to them
Hardly many people in Russia will miss them

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Interesting article on how the Kremlin controlled a disinformation campaign on the covert war in Ukraine, based on the statements of 2 former employees/whisteblowers.

Interesting article on how the former Kremlin critic left Radio Liberty to stay away from disinformation campaign funded by Department of State
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/10/putin-russia-donetsk-andrei-babitsky

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

One oligarch and few kids of politicians, who was robbing Russia during Yeltsin rule
You can add Maria Gaidar to them
Hardly many people in Russia will miss them


Interesting article on how the former Kremlin critic left Radio Liberty to stay away from disinformation campaign funded by Department of State
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/10/putin-russia-donetsk-andrei-babitsky

" In early 2000, during the first months of Vladimir Putin’s presidency, Babitsky was kidnapped by Russian forces and disappeared for many weeks:"

"He said he caused controversy with an article he wrote last year in which he supported Putin’s annexation of Crimea (or “Putin’s decision to support the population of Crimea” as he called it). "

"In the separatist-held areas, journalist Pavel Kanygin from independent Russian paper Novaya Gazeta was detained and assaulted by security forces when in the republic last month. The BBC’s Natalia Antelava was told she would not be given accreditation to work in the republic after accusing separatists and Russian television ofinventing the death of a ten-year-old girl."

"A number of commentators have accusedthe Kremlin of fighting an “information war”, using fake stories and doctored photographs to skew events.

"Babitsky, however, said western media coverage of the conflict has been unfair, focusing on Russian aggression and ignoring the local context. "

Looks and sounds like Babitsky was given a talk to by the Russian military who kidnapped him .


What local context is he on about .
There was peace and no history of any upraising or civil unrest with kiev when the minority pro Russians controlled most of the country .
Minorities controlling the Majority sounds wrong doesn't it .almost south African minus blacks vs whites.
He thinks we should forget all about Russia aggression intresting idea if only Russia withdraws all its military forces from the Sovereign state of Ukraine and allow Ukraine to govern itself without Kremlin interference or military threats

Dannyboy83

Count Dooku wrote: »

One oligarch and few kids of politicians, who was robbing Russia during Yeltsin rule
You can add Maria Gaidar to them
Hardly many people in Russia will miss them

You didn't ask if mattered - you asked why people connected to the report on the covert war haven't been killed.
I answered you:
A) some already have been killed,
some have moved themselves beyond the immediate reach of the Kremlin
C) the Kremlin is attempting to close Novaya Gazeta

i.e. the Kremlin is retaliating in any way it can.

I happen to agree with you, the bulk of the Russian people find them irrelevant or dishonest... Russian propaganda is working within Russia, (for now) - while failing catastrophically outside Russia.

But If you wish to discuss cases which have left egg on Russia face - there are plenty of examples, and Paul Durov is a very good starting point.

Could you imagine Richard Branson 'fleeing' the UK? I doubt it.
If Mark Zuckerberg had to 'flee' America, it would be international news, carried via every single media form.
Yet when his Russian counterpart, Paul Durov has to 'flee' Russia, nobody bats an eyelid...


Such is the reputation of Russia in the world today. A country where quasi-official media outlets issue death threats against journalists:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/06/10/russia-investigative-journalist-facing-death-threats
In a May 19, 2015 editorial, Grozny Inform, which is the Chechen Republic’s most widely read media outlet and closely linked to the republic’s leadership, intoned that Elena Milashina could meet the same fate as Anna Politkovskaya, the Novaya Gazeta journalist murdered in 2006, and Boris Nemtsov, the Russian political opposition leader murdered in February 2015.

Toward the end of the lengthy editorial, the author suggested that nameless forces were preparing the ground for Milashina to be victimized “…f you go through all the potential victims, then by all indications, the latest hero who will pay for their life for ‘the defense of human rights’ in Russia will be our Novaya Gazeta special correspondent

Milashina told Human Rights Watch she believed the editorial is “saying I’ll be killed and it’s been decided…. It’s a new sort of a death threat – not by phone, not by SMS, not by email but rather published in a state-sponsored media outlet…. It’s an attempt to silence me by threats, death threats actually, to prevent me from continuing my Chechnya reporting.”

Interesting article on how the former Kremlin critic left Radio Liberty to stay away from disinformation campaign funded by Department of State
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/10/putin-russia-donetsk-andrei-babitsky

Thanks for the link, although I was already aware of this story (and expected you to attempt to use it as a rebuttal)

My opinion on the Babitsky case, based on the information which is in the public domain, is that RFE/RL acted incorrectly or at the very least - stupidly - by playing straight into the hands of Kremlin propaganda.
It's impossible to comment further than that, because neither party have disclosed the specifics

A spokesperson for RFE/RL, Martins Zvaners, said while the organisation could not discuss the specifics of Babitsky’s case it was “totally false” to say he had been fired for his personal views

And Babitsky himself refuses to answer questions.


More importantly, Babitsky's criticism of Western Journalism amounts to 'too much focus on Russian aggression, not enough focus on the local aspect & the civil war'.
And while that may have been a valid criticism during the Crimea annexation - it hasn't been valid criticism since Russia's covert invasion of Ukraine.

For the rest of the world, that very much is the story.

Count Dooku

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

And Babitsky himself refuses to answer questions.

He said that

“I had filmed a piece about the exhumation of bodies of people shot by the Aidar [pro-Ukraine volunteer] battalion, and they cut it heavily and created a huge scandal. The Ukrainian service said that with my views I should not be sent to Donbass.”

At this time West couldn't admit crimes committed by pro-Kiev paramilitaries, even later it was confirmed first by Amnesty International and local authorities
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/EUR50/040/2014/en/
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/governor-of-luhansk-region-accuses-aidar-of-terrorizing-the-region-385054.html
But for Western propaganda it was important to keep image of Ukrainian far right and radical nationalists as patriots and Western media simply couldn't afford to admit that Russian media were telling truth about reign of terror in controlled by Kiev parts of Novorossia
The goal was to move attention away to create impression that Kiev is fighting against regular Russian army and hide everything what could give justification for Russian involvement. This strtegy works well in West where main media outlets can hide truth about what is happening on East of Ukraine, but achieves opposite for people with brains and in Russia, where people have direct access to information from Novorossia even without TV

Dannyboy83

Count Dooku wrote: »

He said that

At this time West couldn't admit crimes committed by pro-Kiev paramilitaries, even later it was confirmed first by Amnesty International and local authorities
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/EUR50/040/2014/en/
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/governor-of-luhansk-region-accuses-aidar-of-terrorizing-the-region-385054.html

But for Western propaganda it was important to keep image of Ukrainian far right and radical nationalists as patriots and Western media simply couldn't afford to admit that Russian media were telling truth about reign of terror in controlled by Kiev parts of Novorossia

I noticed you quoted Amnesty International in support of your point.
Do you feel this is a reliable source, given that Russia in the process of banning NGOs?

Amnesty International said the law threatened "fundamental freedoms." Human Rights Watch called it a "piece of repressive legislation."

Anyway, the erroneous belief you articulated is quite easy to debunk, but I urge you to broaden your sources.

Here I will quote an article from the BBC, 2014 for you:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30414955
Ever since Ukraine's February revolution, the Kremlin has characterised the new leaders in Kiev as a "fascist junta" made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, set on persecuting, if not eradicating, the Russian-speaking population.
This is demonstrably false. Far-right parties failed to pass a 5% barrier to enter parliament, although if they had banded together, and not split their vote, they would have probably slipped past the threshold.
Only one government minister has links to nationalist parties - though he is in no way a neo-Nazi or fascist. And the speaker of parliament, Volodymyr Groysman, is Jewish. He has the third most powerful position in the country after the president and prime minister.
But Ukrainian officials and many in the media err to the other extreme. They claim that Ukrainian politics are completely fascist-free. This, too, is plain wrong.
As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine.

But this blanket denial also has its dangers, since it allows the ultra-nationalists to fly under the radar. Many Ukrainians are unaware that they exist, or even what a neo-Nazi or fascist actually is, or what they stand for.

Not only is this phenomenon not denied in Western media, it is openly discussed.

You are lumping 'Western media' and 'Ukrainian media' into one category, when there is the comparatively pronounced difference of the the Ukraine resisting a covert military invasion by a belligerent former ally.

And as stated in the article, the disinformation onslaught being waged by the Kremlin in parallel with the covert assault of Ukraine, has deplorable repercussions, such as tyrants escaping justice - whether that involves Ukrainian miscreants murdering civilians or NovoRossian xenophobes shooting down civilian airliners.

Count Dooku wrote: »

The goal was to move attention away to create impression that Kiev is fighting against regular Russian army and hide everything what could give justification for Russian involvement. This strtegy works well in West where main media outlets can hide truth about what is happening on East of Ukraine, but achieves opposite for people with brains and in Russia, where people have direct access to information from Novorossia even without TV

Given that we have established it is a fallacy, I would counter that the reason this misconception is so pervasive in Russia, is as I stated in the previous post:

Russian propaganda is working within Russia, (for now) - while failing catastrophically outside Russia.

Add in a Patriotic Russian internet, limiting foreign ownership of media to 20% maximum, elimination of any indepedent media (Dozhd TV/Novaya Gazeta), and it's clear that the only opinion reaching the isolated Russian people is the one being fed to them at the behest of the Kremlin controlled state media.

When the pluralism of opinions has been eliminated, only the opinion permitted by the Kremlin remains.
The Russian people are not bad, but they are being terribly misled.

Count Dooku

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I noticed you quoted Amnesty International in support of your point.
Do you feel this is a reliable source, given that Russia in the process of banning NGOs?

Do you mean that only USA can have Foreign Agents law?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Not only is this phenomenon not denied in Western media, it is openly discussed.

Really? I see only that it have been mentioned few times in places where nobody will read them to pretend for "balanced" coverage

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Add in a Patriotic Russian internet,

Has it been implemented?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

limiting foreign ownership of media to 20% maximum,

Up to recently foreign ownership in US media have been limited to 25% and nobody complained
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-15/u-s-exploring-easing-limit-on-foreign-ownership-of-broadcasters
Even now it will be eased on case-to-case basis

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

elimination of any indepedent media (Dozhd TV/Novaya Gazeta), and it's clear that the only opinion reaching the isolated Russian people is the one being fed to them at the behest of the Kremlin controlled state media.

I presume you understand "independence" as being pro-USA
Anyway, why Dozhd TV and Novaya Gazeta are not eliminated yet?

BoJack Horseman

You boys seem obsessed with copying the US in everything.

Talk about hero worship!

Dannyboy83

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean that only USA can have Foreign Agents law?

Up to recently foreign ownership in US media have been limited to 25% and nobody complained
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-15/u-s-exploring-easing-limit-on-foreign-ownership-of-broadcasters
Even now it will be eased on case-to-case basis

That's a strawman argument of course, I didn't suggest it, I believe sovereign nations are free to implement their own legislation, including Russia or Ukraine.

There is a caveat however;
Foreign Agent Restrictions are dangerous in a country with high levels of censorship and low levels of Press Freedom; this is symptomatic of Totalitarianism -a political system in which the state holds total control over the society and seeks to control all aspects of public and private life wherever possible.

Freedom House ranks Ireland at 16/180countries in the Freedom of the Press Index, and it has never been out of the top 20 places.
Russia ranks at 148/180countries and has never been below 120 since Putin's reign began.

Of all industrialised nations with well educated populations, Russia has the highest level of censorship and lowest levels of press freedom.

Most importantly however, Russia has one of the highest rates of murder for journalists of any industrialised country (at least 28 known since Putin's ascension, though the suspected figure is 3 times that amount).

So now that I have clarified my position regard Foreign Agent Restrictions, I ask you to clarify - how do you reconcile your usage of NGOs to validate your assertion, when Russia is banning NGOs?
Do you feel it is a credible source?
Do you feel there are exceptions to the general rule of NGOs being unreliable?
Please elaborate.

Really? I see only that it have been mentioned few times in places where nobody will read them to pretend for "balanced" coverage

The BBC is hardly exotic, and that was the first result produced by google after a 10 second search.
Here, I have even saved the search for you, based on a statement you made!
Click Me


Western Journalism has varying degrees of impartiality, but you are relying on anecdotal evidence and extremely limited sources, that's why you have formed such an erroneous impression - hence I asked you to broaden your sources. That applies to both Russians and non-Russians.

One outside a totalitarian system could be equally misled by relying on limited sources, e.g. Fox News resembles Sputnik i Pogram and the vast majority of Russian media - heavy distortion of facts, heavy censorship, incitement of xenophobia (Mexicans/Central Asians) - and is ridiculed worldwide, just like the majority of Russian media. They are devoid of credibility.

Has it been implemented?

Russian Freedoms have been gradually eroded for years:

Bloggers Law in Russia

Putin Allies sieze control of vKontake

[URL="Russian Internet 'One Step Away' From Chinese Firewall
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-internet-one-step-away-from-chinese-firewall/499121.html"]Russian Internet 'One Step Away' From Chinese Firewall
[/URL]

I presume you understand "independence" as being pro-USA

The corollary being that since I'm anti-Totalitarian, I must be Pro-American.
Well, it must be nice to have such a high opinion of America, but I'm afraid that's terribly flawed logic!

You 'presume' because you think in tribal terms and assume I am also supporting a tribe.
Given that my partner is Russian, I would be too confused about which tribe to support, tovarish...:D

Anyway, why Dozhd TV and Novaya Gazeta are not eliminated yet?

Because nobody cares anymore, Russia has become totally isolated.

Elmer Blooker

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

You boys seem obsessed with copying the US in everything.

Talk about hero worship!

Would yourself and especially Dannyboy who highlights at every opportunity how dysfunctional he perceives Russia to be explain these all white gunmen/vigilantes who call themselves Oath Keepers patrolling a black neighbourhood in Ferguson with impunity?
I will of course be accused of "whataboutery" and going off topic but this is a very relevant and connected post I'm making.

Dannyboy83

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Would yourself and especially Dannyboy who highlights at every opportunity how dysfunctional he perceives Russia to be explain these all white gunmen/vigilantes who call themselves Oath Keepers patrolling a black neighbourhood in Ferguson with impunity?
I will of course be accused of "whataboutery" and going off topic but this is a very relevant and connected post I'm making.

I don't dispute the word you have used - disfunctional, although there is an important distinction.

My opinion is that Russian society is generally not disfunctional (Russian government is).

Russia's problems originate almost entirely from the top; America's problems emerge at every level, but particularly from the grassroots.

America's problems will take generations to sort out; many of Russia's can be sorted in a week.

ancapailldorcha

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Would yourself and especially Dannyboy who highlights at every opportunity how dysfunctional he perceives Russia to be explain these all white gunmen/vigilantes who call themselves Oath Keepers patrolling a black neighbourhood in Ferguson with impunity?
I will of course be accused of "whataboutery" and going off topic but this is a very relevant and connected post I'm making.

Please don't drag the thread off topic.

johnnyskeleton

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I will of course be accused of "whataboutery" and going off topic but this is a very relevant and connected post I'm making.

Mod:

Thats exactly what youre being accused of. Now, back on topic everybody

Elmer Blooker

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Russia's problems originate almost entirely from the top; America's problems emerge at every level, but particularly from the grassroots.

America's problems will take generations to sort out; many of Russia's can be sorted in a week.

It doesn't occur to you that the current Russian government might be the one that Russians want and if the "west", meaning the US of course, doesn't like that then too bad. Apparently the Russian government under Yeltsin and his oligarchs (many now born again democrats exiled in the west) wasn't a "problem" when life expectancy had fallen into the 50s and Russians were starving in the streets. The last I heard Putin's popularity stands at 85%.

InTheTrees

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The last I heard Putin's popularity stands at 85%.

:pac:

Right up there with Kim Jung Un's

Elmer Blooker

InTheTrees wrote: »

:pac:

Right up there with Kim Jung Un's

Interesting to note that the Putin poll was carried out by the Levada Centre.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/why-the-kremlin-hates-levada-center/480433.html

SamHarris

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Interesting to note that the Putin poll was carried out by the Levada Centre.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/why-the-kremlin-hates-levada-center/480433.html

Can you point to a single poll in history where a leader had as much support in any country that we could all agree had anything approaching a free media?

You might notice a pattern.

Even if it was completely true and not the result of a state stranglehold on all information sources in the country (though Im sure youll admit that has something to do with it, no?), what would be your point, exactly? That enormous institutional corruption, aggression towards numerous neighbouring states resulting in thousands of deaths and the brutal oppression of various groups within a country should be, what, ignored by the West because the leader is popular? They pretty much always are in totalitarian states. To anyone with any knowledge of opinion polls in free societies your citation of 85% support does the exact opposite of what you think it does.

Also you imply in the previous post that the only people that have a problem with Putins policies is the US (no doubt because they are youre big boogie men so its helpful to lay anything you perceive as negative at their feet) well I'm afraid that is just very far from the case. It's his list of international allies that is thin. It's other neighbouring states that are by far the most wary and critical.

SamHarris

https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/08/12/propaganda-watch-listen-to-two-russians-badly-impersonate-cia-spies-to-pin-mh17-on-u-s/?utm_content=bufferaf772&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

An interesting piece. It's a little sad that anyone outside of Russia still takes anything said by its government or state controlled media outlets at face value.

Also a helpful reminder that not even the Russian government could get their story straight on what happened to the plane.

It's all a little worrying though. The Russian government clearly has no way of responding to either the allegations or to Western sanctions (as demonstrated by the childish destruction of massive amounts of already paid for food). They have managed to back themselves into a corner and have very few ways to effectively fight back. For a nuclear armed state that makes it far more dangerous than if it could compete in other, more traditional ways, with the West.

K-9

Mod:

The mod warnings about keeping it on topic also includes stuff like saying others view the US as big boogie men too. It covers both sides of the discussion because it would be inconsistent otherwise. Thank you.

BoJack Horseman

SamHarris wrote: »

It's all a little worrying though. The Russian government clearly has no way of responding to either the allegations or to Western sanctions (as demonstrated by the childish destruction of massive amounts of already paid for food). They have managed to back themselves into a corner and have very few ways to effectively fight back. For a nuclear armed state that makes it far more dangerous than if it could compete in other, more traditional ways, with the West.

Didnt 'WakeUp' expend hundreds of posts telling us that Russia with its economy smaller than Italy had the West in the palm of its hand & would be crushed under the might of Putin?

The sanctions, such as they are (and they are pretty modest) were the least the West could do.

They aren't without consequence though as they coincide with the drop in EU dairy quotas so its a factor in causing the drop in milk prices.

Dannyboy83

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

It doesn't occur to you that the current Russian government might be the one that Russians want and if the "west", meaning the US of course, doesn't like that then too bad.

I don't think any sovereign nation should require the permission/approval of another to choose their own government.

But Russia doesn't have Majority Rule,
- therefore Russians do not choose their own government,
- therefore it's improbable that Russians have the government they want anyway.

'Supporting the government you have', does not equal 'having the government you want', but is not unusual where Siege Mentality is concerned.

I'm trying to avoid going off topic here, but I don't think you are considering this rationally to be honest.
It may help you to take this out of the Cold War terms for a moment and equate in the context of our own history; When Ireland engaged in an economic war with Britain, it was so self destructive, it's questionable whether it could even be considered a pyrrhic victory. That situation was definitely 'mild' in comparison to the bed Russia has made;

Russia is in a state of economic meltdown, diplomatic self-destruction, suffering Dutch Disease, multiple former allies are now sworn enemies and those who dissent are imprisoned or murdered in view of the Kremlin, all while engaged in an irredentist war against a historical blood brother.

An overwhelming clusterf**k.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The last I heard Putin's popularity stands at 85%.

That figure is incorrect, his rating was recently upgraded to 89%

Putin's personal popularity has increased - which I don't dispute.
The actual figure I would dispute - if there were any point:rolleyes: (When Russians were asked who they would like to see elected when the actual ballot is due (in March 2018), 57 percent replied they would be happy if Putin is reelected. Twenty-five percent said they would prefer someone else and 19 percent found it difficult to make a choice.) - , but certainly from anecdotal experience, he became much more popular following the Crimea annexation.

This is not unprecedented by any means:
Hitler's popularity soared following the French campaign,
Thatcher's following Falklands,
Bush following Iraq.

As you know, the story never ends there.

Given your manifest affection for America, I am sure you would be the first to agree that high approval ratings are not necessarily a validation of good governance or ethical conduct.

Nobody has a clear picture of the actual situation in Russia in my honest opinion, including the Kremlin, but it's clear that the picture which has been painted is not nearly perfect:

http://www.rferl.org/content/rumblin.../27039567.html
In elections to the local council in Kaliningrad Oblast's Baltisky district, the ruling United Russia party failed to secure even a single seat. Turnout was 47.7 percent, unusually high for a local council election.

The online newspaper Gazeta.ru called it "a crushing defeat" for the party of power.

And the international picture is much more telling:

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2015/08/Pew-Research-Center-Russia-Image-Report-FINAL-August-5-2015.pdf
According to the Pew Research Center's new report, only three countries in the world have a net positive opinion of Russia: China, Vietnam, and Ghana. Worldwide, a median of just 30 percent view Russia favorably.


In Europe, just 26% view Russia favorably,
in the Middle East, only 25% do.
In Latin America, it's only 29%.
In the regions most favorably inclined toward Russia — Asia and Africa — it's just 37%.

And if Russia's global image is bad, Putin's is dismal.
Worldwide, just 24% trust him.
In Europe, just 15% do.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Apparently the Russian government under Yeltsin and his oligarchs (many now born again democrats exiled in the west) wasn't a "problem" when life expectancy had fallen into the 50s and Russians were starving in the streets.

This issue is most complex in the entire story and requires a thread of it's own.

But there is a shorter point to be made:

Economic divergence between Poland and Ukraine:

2015 contrast is even more grim:
Poland, pm- net: €737 ($801)
Ukraine, pm -net: €120 / ($130)

This trend persists when contrasting countries within the Russian sphere against those who have moved out of the Russian sphere.

SamHarris

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Didnt 'WakeUp' expend hundreds of posts telling us that Russia with its economy smaller than Italy had the West in the palm of its hand & would be crushed under the might of Putin?

The sanctions, such as they are (and they are pretty modest) were the least the West could do.

They aren't without consequence though as they coincide with the drop in EU dairy quotas so its a factor in causing the drop in milk prices.

Yes well I think those that manage to convince themselves of various conspiracy theories and swallow Kremlin propaganda whole merely because it affirms their politics also seem to convince themselves that groups or countries that are in opposition to the West are not only to be given a pass on many moral issues (that they would lambaste the west for) but are also greatly exaggerated in power and ability, in the hopes that the West (or lets be honest, usually the States) will be taught some sort of lesson. It all comes as part of a general political milieu that is honestly so predictable I can guess what position many will take on pretty much any event of global importance.

As an example, and to bring it back on topic, you had the little green men in Crimea - the original Russian line that these were spontaneous military formations sprouting up was first trotted out. Then when Russia didnt bother lying anymore it became about how the people of Crimea wanted to be Russian so it wasnt REALLY an invasion.

Or when the plane was shot down it was that the Ukrainians had done it via fighter jet. When that became disproved it was that it was shot down by a Ukrainian Buke. Now that Russia blocked any chance of an independent UN investigation into the matter all the evidence, no matter how conclusive will be dismissed by the Kremlin and their cheerleaders as "propaganda" or lies. Which is basically the go to - when the evidence starts stacking up as is so often the case with these things just saying "its the mainstream media, who believes them?" or "its a Western government, who believes them?" becomes the go to move as trying to explain away all the evidence individually becomes too onerous a task.

I honestly thought that Russian propaganda was far too open and unsophisticated to convince anyone outside of Russia of the truth of their position but it seems to have created this cloud of doubt and debate where really there SHOULD be none. I wonder if that is the ultimate goal for them in the West - not to convince a lot of us of one thing or another but to create the illusion of doubt on enough issues that action becomes more difficult.

Luckily at least at the higher levels of government no one seems to be fooled though I wonder if the sanctions would have been more onerous (among other sticks) were the Russians more honest about what they were doing?

i agree, Russias economy is big enough and tied enough to Europes that even this limited economic war will have an effect on very specific sectors. However considering that the Russian economy almost went into freefall, and the sanctions played a big part in that, a lesson I think was learned in the Kremlin, if it got really serious they would fall much further and harder than us. I think that is why we are seeing things like the childish destruction of food and weak propaganda victories like that, its one of the very few ways they can lash out.

Dannyboy83

SamHarris wrote: »

Yes well I think those that manage to convince themselves of various conspiracy theories and swallow Kremlin propaganda whole merely because it affirms their politics also seem to convince themselves that groups or countries that are in opposition to the West are not only to be given a pass on many moral issues (that they would lambaste the west for) but are also greatly exaggerated in power and ability, in the hopes that the West (or lets be honest, usually the States) will be taught some sort of lesson.

The irony is that when the history books will be written, the Russian people will recall that many of the 'collaborators' - the non-Russians who supported the regime - did so at the expense of the Russian people, merely to satisfy their desire to attack America.

Mark my words, this will be used another stick to beat the West with at some stage in the future.

Count Dooku

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

That's a strawman argument of course, I didn't suggest it, I believe sovereign nations are free to implement their own legislation, including Russia or Ukraine.

There is a caveat however;
Foreign Agent Restrictions are dangerous in a country with high levels of censorship and low levels of Press Freedom; this is symptomatic of Totalitarianism -a political system in which the state holds total control over the society and seeks to control all aspects of public and private life wherever possible.

Why nobody cares about Saudi Arabia, where there is no NGO at all?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Freedom House ranks Ireland at 16/180countries in the Freedom of the Press Index, and it has never been out of the top 20 places.
Russia ranks at 148/180countries and has never been below 120 since Putin's reign began.

Freedom House report is more measuring lelel of USA support rather than real freedom. How many opposiotion media can you name in Oman, which is 40 positions above Russia?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Of all industrialised nations with well educated populations, Russia has the highest level of censorship and lowest levels of press freedom.

This is how Western propaganda is trying to present Russia

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Most importantly however, Russia has one of the highest rates of murder for journalists of any industrialised country (at least 28 known since Putin's ascension, though the suspected figure is 3 times that amount).

If you will check you link, you will see that most journalists have been killed before Putin came to power, but who cares?
BTW, for some reason, Committee to Protect Journalist, mentioned only one journalist killed in Ukraine in 2015, while in reality it was three
http://www.rt.com/news/250245-ukraine-opposition-journalist-dead/
In addition to Serhiy Nikolayev, metioned by CPJ, it was also Sergey Sukhobok and Oles Buzina.
I know that you will tell that only pro-Western journalists should be counted, but still...

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

So now that I have clarified my position regard Foreign Agent Restrictions,

Really?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

how do you reconcile your usage of NGOs to validate your assertion, when Russia is banning NGOs?
Do you feel it is a credible source?
Do you feel there are exceptions to the general rule of NGOs being unreliable?
Please elaborate.

Russia is not banning NGO, Russia is banning foreign funding of NGO, but again, who cares?
Even not banning, but forcing NGO to declare themsleves as foreign agent, so Russian people will know it

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The BBC is hardly exotic, and that was the first result produced by google after a 10 second search.
Here, I have even saved the search for you, based on a statement you made!
Click Me


Western Journalism has varying degrees of impartiality, but you are relying on anecdotal evidence and extremely limited sources, that's why you have formed such an erroneous impression - hence I asked you to broaden your sources. That applies to both Russians and non-Russians.

One outside a totalitarian system could be equally misled by relying on limited sources, e.g. Fox News resembles Sputnik i Pogram and the vast majority of Russian media - heavy distortion of facts, heavy censorship, incitement of xenophobia (Mexicans/Central Asians) - and is ridiculed worldwide, just like the majority of Russian media. They are devoid of credibility.

Is it what Western propaganda says?
Russian State mostly own few most popular channels, like British own BBC and Ireland PravdaRTE. Most of newspapers, online news agencies and radio stations are in private ownership.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Russia

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Russian Freedoms have been gradually eroded for years:

Again, Western media created such impression

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Bloggers Law in Russia

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-red-cross-takes-action-against-google-over-blogger-identity-1.627894
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64268458

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Putin Allies sieze control of vKontake

So everybody who doesn't like it, can use Facebook.
The only real disapointment will be for NSA, who won't be able to collect data about VK users

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

[URL="Russian Internet 'One Step Away' From Chinese Firewall
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-internet-one-step-away-from-chinese-firewall/499121.html"]Russian Internet 'One Step Away' From Chinese Firewall
[/URL]

So Russian people will have to use Opera and anonymizers more

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

Why nobody cares about Saudi Arabia, where there is no NGO at all?

That whataboutery will probably be usefull in your KSA thread, when you start it!

How many opposiotion media can you name in Oman

That whataboutery will probably be usefull in your Oman thread, when you start it!

raise your game Ivan.

If you will check you link, you will see that most journalists have been killed before Putin came to power

149 murders.... sure thats fine isnt it?
Your boy has been a busy shirtless bee!

So Russian people will have to use Opera and anonymizers more

Aah.... well thats fine so.

Strange that you rail against the NSA doing it, but sure its okey-dokey when your boss does it!


such a poor and very transparent effort.

Dannyboy83

Count Dooku wrote: »

Why nobody cares about Saudi Arabia, where there is no NGO at all?

People do care - Saudia Arabia ranks at 7 - Worst of the Worst.

They just care less, because Saudia Arabia
- has cultural issues, whereas Russia merely has leadership issues
- isn't invading anybody and
- doesn't possess the capacity to end the human race.

I'm surprised you chose SA, when you could have chosen North Korea!
Why would that be I wonder?

Count Dooku wrote: »

Freedom House report is more measuring lelel of USA support rather than real freedom. How many opposiotion media can you name in Oman, which is 40 positions above Russia?

Here is the comparison chart:


Do you know why Oman is 40 places above Russia?
It's not because Oman has improved!

Count Dooku wrote: »

This is how Western propaganda is trying to present Russia

If you have evidence to substantiate your point, then present it.
Otherwise, it's just your opinion.

Count Dooku wrote: »

If you will check you link, you will see that most journalists have been killed before Putin came to power, but who cares?

Putin was appointed head of the FSB by Yeltsin, 25th July 1998.
You can count yourself...

Count Dooku wrote: »

BTW, for some reason, Committee to Protect Journalist, mentioned only one journalist killed in Ukraine in 2015, while in reality it was three
http://www.rt.com/news/250245-ukraine-opposition-journalist-dead/
In addition to Serhiy Nikolayev, metioned by CPJ, it was also Sergey Sukhobok and Oles Buzina.
I know that you will tell that only pro-Western journalists should be counted, but still...

So why don't you email CPJ and ask why they have not been included?

Count Dooku wrote: »

Really?

O RLY?

Count Dooku wrote: »

Russia is not banning NGO, Russia is banning foreign funding of NGO, but again, who cares?
Even not banning, but forcing NGO to declare themsleves as foreign agent, so Russian people will know it

Fiona Corcoran, Founder of the Greater Chernobyl Cause, received the Order of Friendship award, but didn't receive any Russian funding...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/putin-was-chatty-and-friendly-says-irish-humanitarian-1.2016299
The Greater Chernobyl Cause relies almost entirely for support from fundraising activities in the towns and villages of Ireland.

And here is the funding for the Chernobyl shield:

The EU has pledged €250 million towards the cost of the Safe Confinement project; the US €182 million, Germany €60 million, the UK €53 million, Ukraine €45 million, Russia €15 million:rolleyes:. Ireland has contributed €8 million towards the cost of building a gigantic concrete shield or ‘sarcophagus’ over the still leaking reactor.

Count Dooku wrote: »

Is it what Western propaganda says?
Russian State mostly own few most popular channels, like British own BBC and Ireland PravdaRTE. Most of newspapers, online news agencies and radio stations are in private ownership.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Russia

Intersting.
You choose to use a Russian medium to question the impartiality of an Irish one...Freudian slip?

Count Dooku wrote: »

Again, Western media created such impression

I see - and what impression does this create?

https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/08/12/russia-bans-reddit
13th August - Reddit, one of the most popular destinations on the Internet, has been added to Russia's list of banned websites.

Count Dooku wrote: »

So everybody who doesn't like it, can use Facebook.
The only real disapointment will be for NSA, who won't be able to collect data about VK users

You do realise the reason Pavel Durov was chased out of Russia, was because he refused to give VK data to the FSB on Ukrainian dissidents?

http://www.ewdn.com/2014/04/22/durov-says-he-gave-up-vkontakte-share-because-of-anti-maidan-pressure-from-fsb/
Vkontakte founder forced to resign after revealing anti-Maidan pressure from FSB

“On December 13, 2013 the FSB demanded that we disclose personal information on the leaders of Euromaidan [the Kiev-based movement that organized protests against the regime of former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovich]. Our response to such requests has always been ‘no,’ as Russian jurisdiction does not cover VKontakte’s Ukrainian users. Giving Ukrainians’ personal data away to Russian authorities would not only have been illegal, it would also have been disloyal to the millions of Ukrainian citizens who trusted us,” Durov explained.

Count Dooku wrote: »

So Russian people will have to use Opera and anonymizers more

Did you know GitHub is blocked in Russia?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8692584
hal9000xp 252 days ago

I live in Russia (Moscow) and I'm working for leading russian internet company. I'm very annoyed by current political and economical situation. I was so upset by events happening last months that I simply stopped reading russian news at all. And I spent all the time in places like GitHub, Topcoder, English Wikipedia, Hacker News etc. Yesterday, I've tried to make yet another commit to my private repository and suddenly I failed to connect to GitHub. After basic checking of network, I started searching for a news, and I got it.
In a big picture, it's not just russian politicians who tight control over the free internet. The main problem in russia is not just politicians, it's a vast majority of russian people who voted for Putin and his party and totally support current regime.
May be for western people it's hard to believe how can it be possible to support this crazy regime. I can tell you that even top managers from leading russian internet company (from my private conversation with them) dreamed about great russian firewall because in that case, they won't have competitors like Google. Furthermore even IT guys like Putin regime and don't get worry about crazy laws passed against the internet. I assure you in that because many of my colleagues really like Stalin and really like what's happening in Ukraine. Almost all people in Russia really hate western world. They don't care about currency exchange rates and inflation, they care only about imperialism. When Putin made desision about Crimea, and when people totally supported it, I stopped believe in Russia at all.
Russia is a pure soviet country, with pure 100% soviet mindset, vast majority of russian people like idea of self-isolation. This is why Russia has no future as a liberal market-driven country.
And this is why I'm actively looking for a job abroad.

PopePalpatine

Speaking of popular sites blocked in Russia: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33756427

Count Dooku

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

People do care - Saudia Arabia ranks at 7 - Worst of the Worst.

They just care less, because Saudia Arabia
- has cultural issues, whereas Russia merely has leadership issues

Why Russians should have leader, which suits USA rather than them?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

- isn't invading anybody and

My apologies, I forgot that Yemen doesn’t count
http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-08-12/saudi-and-uae-boots-ground-intensify-yemen-war

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

- doesn't possess the capacity to end the human race.

Not yet

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm surprised you chose SA, when you could have chosen North Korea!
Why would that be I wonder?

I knew that you will mention NK :-D

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Here is the comparison chart:


Do you know why Oman is 40 places above Russia?
It's not because Oman has improved!

Are you serious that country with absolute monarchy without any political parties/independent media and where you even cannot buy Playboy in newsagent, has more freedom than Russia?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If you have evidence to substantiate your point, then present it.
Otherwise, it's just your opinion.

Simple - Ukraine has even more censorship and less freedom, but Western media are trying to present Russia as evil
Try to google about Oles Buzina, Sergey Sukhobok, Ruslan Kotsaba or attacks on offices of various media in Kiev
if it would happen in Russia, it would be a massive hysteria in Western newspapers, but in Ukraine it is acceptable

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Putin was appointed head of the FSB by Yeltsin, 25th July 1998.
You can count yourself...

Are you saying that head of FSB is the most powerful person in Russia?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

So why don't you email CPJ and ask why they have not been included?

Why should I? Thanks to CPJ, they did a good job by voiding all your references to so called “independent” sources as politically biased

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

And here is the funding for the Chernobyl shield:

And?
It never been a secret for Russian people that a lot of charities have foreign funding
The only NGO are really affected, were NGO which were existing on foreign money, but pretended to be Russian and their opinion can presented as opinion as Russian people

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Intersting.
You choose to use a Russian medium to question the impartiality of an Irish one...Freudian slip?

Actually, Pravda is the Soviet brand, but your nickname says that you was to young to remember it

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I see - and what impression does this create?

This is what happens when you mention only one part of story
https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/08/13/russia-unblocks-reddit

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

You do realise the reason Pavel Durov was chased out of Russia, was because he refused to give VK data to the FSB on Ukrainian dissidents?

Like Snowden was chased out of USA. FSB is not alone to get access to personal data of users

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Did you know GitHub is blocked in Russia?

Actually was and for few days only
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GitHub#Censorship
Anyway, thanks to making perfect example of brainwashing by Western propaganda

Dannyboy83

Count Dooku wrote: »

Why Russians should have leader, which suits USA rather than them?

That's the point tovarish - they don't.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/putin-era-prosperity-fades-as-more-russians-slip-into-poverty/523422.html
last year, as Russian economic growth stalled, the number of Russians below the poverty line increased by 600,000 people to reach 16.1 million. The increase was the largest annual rise since 2000, and left 11.2 percent of the population in official poverty, according to Rosstat.

This year, with the economy expected to shrink by around 3 percent, will be worse.

The Economic Development Ministry said earlier this year that the share of people whose incomes are below the living minimum would increase to 12.4 percent by the end of 2015, according to news agency RIA Novosti.

Based on Rosstat's end-2014 population figure of 143.75 million, that rise would put 1.7 million more people into poverty, raising the number in penury to just over 17.8 million.

The World Bank in an April report was bleaker, predicting that 14.2 percent of Russians would be in poverty by the year's end, implying an increase of more than 5 million people to 20.4 million.

Count Dooku wrote: »

My apologies, I forgot that Yemen doesn’t count
http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-08-12/saudi-and-uae-boots-ground-intensify-yemen-war

Actually, I concede this point to you tovarish.

Anti-Totalitarianism 534,432: Count Dooku 1

It amazes me that you actually continue this debate tovarish, you are giving us so many topics to research about Russia, I am starting to think you are a Freedom Fighter trying to expose Russian Totalitarianism!

Count Dooku wrote: »

Not yet

Then you of course share our concerns since Russia is not immune to nuclear attack/terrorism either

https://news.vice.com/article/russia-is-now-vulnerable-to-surprise-nuclear-attack
Russia Is Now Vulnerable to Surprise Nuclear Attack
Russia's space-based early warning system, designed to alert the nation to an inbound nuclear missile attack, is offline, leaving Moscow partially blind to potential intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) attacks.

Count Dooku wrote: »

I knew that you will mention NK :-D

- You claimed Russia has press freedom tovarish
- I present evidence showing you are wrong - Russia does not have press freedom
- You tried to justify Russian Totalitarianism, by comparing to other totalitarian states
- You didn't mention NK because they're a Russian ally. Instead you mentioned SA because they're an American ally.
- I mentioned your omission of North Korea to demonstrate to the other viewers of this thread (10k+) your tribal mindset.

Therefore, it's clear to readers how a tribal mindset distorts rational thinking.

Are you serious that country with absolute monarchy without any political parties/independent media and where you even cannot buy Playboy in newsagent, has more freedom than Russia?

Yawn...
I've presented the evidence tovarish.
It's up to you to provide counter-evidence, personal opinions are meaningless.

Simple - Ukraine has even more censorship and less freedom, but Western media are trying to present Russia as evil

Any evidence tovarish?

Try to google about Oles Buzina, Sergey Sukhobok, Ruslan Kotsaba or attacks on offices of various media in Kiev
if it would happen in Russia, it would be a massive hysteria in Western newspapers, but in Ukraine it is acceptable

Yea, I agree with you tovarish - it's deplorable. There are hundreds of atrocities being committed in Ukraine. On BOTH sides.
Is anyone pretending otherwise?
That is why we want Russia to end the invasion and use diplomacy.

Are you saying that head of FSB is the most powerful person in Russia?

Are you saying Vladimir Putin was not head of the FSB tovarish?
Western Propaganda is it? :rolleyes:

Why should I? Thanks to CPJ, they did a good job by voiding all your references to so called “independent” sources as politically biased

Because I happen to agree with you tovarish - it's curious that these journalists have been omitted, when anti-Western journalists from the rest of the world are not omitted.

It may come as a shock to you tovarish, but most Western people think about Russia as infrequently as they think about Africa.
It doesn't occupy the position of importance in Western minds that you ascribe it i.e. in the way that Russians think about America for example, or in the way that Irish people used to think about Britain.

Ireland lived in the shadow of Britain, and Britain was at the forefront of Irish decision making.
But Britain looked out upon an entire Empire, and barely gave Ireland a second thought.

The same goes for the world and Russia.
Russia obsesses over America, and imagines every one reads about Russia in the news.
That couldn't be further from the truth.

We live in a highly connected world, from which Russia has totally cut herself off a few years ago.
Nobody wants to slight Russia, because nobody even thinks about Russia anymore, (until it begin invading it's neighbours)

And?
It never been a secret for Russian people that a lot of charities have foreign funding

Charities were forbidden during the Soviet era tovarish.
It's never been a secret for the Russian people, that foreigners fund the care of their sick and elderly, while the Russians spend money on weapons

The only NGO are really affected, were NGO which were existing on foreign money, but pretended to be Russian and their opinion can presented as opinion as Russian people

Present evidence tovarish.

Actually, Pravda is the Soviet brand, but your nickname says that you was to young to remember it

Wrong, Pravda.ru is a Russian publication tovarish
http://www.pravda.ru/

This is what happens when you mention only one part of story
https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/08/13/russia-unblocks-reddit

erm...I think you forgot to finish your sentence there tovarish?
Did you have a point?

Like Snowden was chased out of USA.

Must try harder tovarish.
Zuckerberg is Durov's counterpart.

I praise Snowden's actions and condemn American surveillance, but America did not sink as low as Russia in this case tovarish.
Russian war criminals murdered protesters at Maidan using evidence stolen from VK.

FSB is not alone to get access to personal data of users

The Iron Curtain lives tovarish.

Actually was and for few days only
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GitHub#Censorship

So the censorship is over, tovarish?

A Facebook page protesting an event against the prosecution of Alexey Navalny was blocked in the Russian Federation.
A Roskomnadzor representative stated that the page was blocked because it promoted an "unsanctioned mass event".:rolleyes:

Anyway, thanks to making perfect example of brainwashing by Western propaganda

What is thanks to a perfect example of brainwashing by Western Propaganda?
Mysterious tovarish...

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Goading other posters is uncivil and borderline trolling.