Being charged on your VISA debit card with out your permission

hfallada

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

TBH this is all the stores fault. I see more and more fairy basic mistakes made by stores staff. Few stores are willing to hires all good staff. Most hire on price. They have people on minimum training rates etc so what do they expect. Few staff have much experience in these big multi-national run stores.

As one poster showed here the level of losses to staff is the highest in Europe. When you go into a lot of stores run by large companies the level of staff disinterest is huge.Most use computerised vending systems. It is hard to believe with a scanning system this mix up happened.

Recently went to pay an account in a co-op. It was a small amount 97 euro however I also decided to buy small items at same time. All 4 items were 13 euro each. As I want to pay it all in one cheque. Salesman was distracted and said 103 euro, I said no I think you are doing yourself. Salesman added 36 and 97 so I gave up and made cheque out for 133 euro as I just gave up. He had reciept for 39 euro for 3 items beside him.

The error here is the shops not the Op's They should not have debited his card without his premission.

You could have a PhD in computer science from Harvard and still mess up on a credit card machine, if you are tired or distracted. Which is seriously easy working retail. Some customers are so draining, that people make mistakes as a result. I worked retail and I made some mistakes. But Im human and it happens.

Nearly all credit card machines still have to have the amount physically inputed into them. Its not automated from the till.

Its got nothing to do with being paid minimum wage or lack of training. A credit card machine takes 2 mines to be trained on. Mistakes are made due to the fact if you work 8 hours on a retail shift, you can make mistake if you are tired.

I never made a serious mistake. But I know some employers make their employees pay for mistake like what happened to OP. I dont think it was fair for the employee having made a simple mistake,to pay for it. OP knew he was undercharged, which is extremely dishonest and the employee was only correcting the mistake.

OP doesnt have a leg to stand IMO if he went back to the store. Whats he going to say? Your employee debited my account, after he undercharged me? The manager isnt going to care.

Clauric

OP knew he was undercharged, which is extremely dishonest and the employee was only correcting the mistake.

OP doesnt have a leg to stand IMO if he went back to the store. Whats he going to say? Your employee debited my account, after he undercharged me? The manager isnt going to care.

It makes no difference if OP knew there was a difference in the price between what he was charged and what it should have been. It is up to the employee and the employer to ensure that the employee is able to do their job at all times. If they are being overworked, and they make a mistake, then that is the employer's fault.

The crux of the matter is that a shop charged the OP's card without his authorisation, or knowledge after a contract had been completed. The purpose of the charge is irrelevant to the matter. In charing the card in such a matter, they almost certainly broke the times governing the use of the EPOS machine as provided by their bank.

Additionally, they may have committed a number of crimes, such as theft, fraud, and identity theft. These are all crimes for the Gardai to investigate, and if they believe there is a charge to answer, they should bring the car to the DPP.

To all the people who are arguing the morapity of the case - agreeing, and following through with a perfectly legal contract is both ethical and honest. Stealing money is unethical, immoral and dishonest.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Leaving aside the dishonest part. The shop charged your card without your permission. That's fraud. Let the bank sort it out.

Morally it's up to you if you want to pay the difference yourself.

MadDog76

hfallada wrote: »

You could have a PhD in computer science from Harvard and still mess up on a credit card machine, if you are tired or distracted. Which is seriously easy working retail. Some customers are so draining, that people make mistakes as a result. I worked retail and I made some mistakes. But Im human and it happens.

Nearly all credit card machines still have to have the amount physically inputed into them. Its not automated from the till.

Its got nothing to do with being paid minimum wage or lack of training. A credit card machine takes 2 mines to be trained on. Mistakes are made due to the fact if you work 8 hours on a retail shift, you can make mistake if you are tired.

I never made a serious mistake. But I know some employers make their employees pay for mistake like what happened to OP. I dont think it was fair for the employee having made a simple mistake,to pay for it. OP knew he was undercharged, which is extremely dishonest and the employee was only correcting the mistake.

OP doesnt have a leg to stand IMO if he went back to the store. Whats he going to say? Your employee debited my account, after he undercharged me? The manager isnt going to care.

But it would seem the bank do care ........... they've blocked the card and are investigating the unauthorised transaction.

irishgeo

i have looked at my receipts some say permission to debit account or another one says i agree to pay the above amount.

you only giving the retailer permission to debit your account for the amount on the receipt, any other amount debited without your permission is fraud.

regardless who is at fault about the price for the product . The OP only gave permission for the merchant to debit the amount on the receipt not a cent more.

abff

Gotta love the faux outrage by those who accuse the store of fraud. If the OP had bought the phone in the mistaken impression that a lower price was applicable, then there might be some logic to accusing the store of fraud. But that's not the case here. It was a mistake, pure and simple.

The OP didn't lose anything. The guy working in the store might end up losing his job over it. Is that what the OP wants? Or does he feel that, because a mistake was made, he is entitled to benefit from it.

Would he feel the same way if it was a cash transaction and he was given too much change by mistake? Let's suppose that happened and the mistake was noticed before he left the store. Would he feel entitled to tell them to f*ck off?

The_Pete_Fella

abff wrote: »

Gotta love the faux outrage by those who accuse the store of fraud. If the OP had bought the phone in the mistaken impression that a lower price was applicable, then there might be some logic to accusing the store of fraud. But that's not the case here. It was a mistake, pure and simple.

The OP didn't lose anything. The guy working in the store might end up losing his job over it. Is that what the OP wants? Or does he feel that, because a mistake was made, he is entitled to benefit from it.

Would he feel the same way if it was a cash transaction and he was given too much change by mistake? Let's suppose that happened and the mistake was noticed before he left the store. Would he feel entitled to tell them to f*ck off?

not necesicerally as they would have highlighted the error to the op and asked for the funds back. If they didnt stop him and preceeded to break into the OP's house two days later to take the cash from his pocket without him knowing, that is more of the mentality behind this scenario. and im sure you wouldnt agree with the store doing that.

Kenny Logins

Would the person lose really their job for selling a phone at the wrong price? Or for charging a card long after the cardholder had left the shop..?

abff

The_Pete_Fella wrote: »

not necesicerally as they would have highlighted the error to the op and asked for the funds back. If they didnt stop him and preceeded to break into the OP's house two days later to take the cash from his pocket without him knowing, that is more of the mentality behind this scenario. and im sure you wouldnt agree with the store doing that.

Seriously? You think what they did is the same as breaking into his house? Really?

irishgeo

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Would the person lose really their job for selling a phone at the wrong price? Or for charging a card long after the cardholder had left the shop..?

the second one is a more serious issue than the first.

while its not fraud , the merchant has clearly broken merchant card rules.

while widely off topic the minimum transaction amount spend sings before credit cards can be used signs are also a breach of credit card merchant rules. visa and mastercard dont like that.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

The shop took money from his card without his permission. It was unauthorised - that is card fraud. Whether it was sold at the wrong price or not is irrelevant.

Take this a step further, in six months time an internal audit turns up that the shop assistant undercharged. Can they then go ahead and charge his card without his permission?

abff wrote: »

Gotta love the faux outrage by those who accuse the store of fraud. If the OP had bought the phone in the mistaken impression that a lower price was applicable, then there might be some logic to accusing the store of fraud. But that's not the case here. It was a mistake, pure and simple.

The OP didn't lose anything. The guy working in the store might end up losing his job over it. Is that what the OP wants? Or does he feel that, because a mistake was made, he is entitled to benefit from it.

Would he feel the same way if it was a cash transaction and he was given too much change by mistake? Let's suppose that happened and the mistake was noticed before he left the store. Would he feel entitled to tell them to f*ck off?

DM addict

I'd agree that the store has the right to charge him more over it, but I'd have thought they'd be obliged to notify him before just charging the card.

abff

Let's all step back and take a sniff test on this. Technically, could the store have handled it better? Legally, should they have approached it a different way? The answer to both those questions may well be yes. But morally, did they do anything wrong?

0lddog

zombieHanalei wrote: »

Makes no difference. A lie of omission is still a lie.

Unless you are a Garda.....

In which case 3 out of every 4 supreme court judges think otherwise

Xcellor

The other day pizza delivery man gave me 10 euros extra change, I noticed when I shut the door. I opened the door to call after him, he didn't hear me. 30 minutes later I hear the door bell ring I assume it must be him back because he realised he made the mistake. I had the 10 euros in my hand and handed it to him without him even asking for it...

People make mistakes... Honest people don't take advantage of that...

abff

Xcellor wrote: »

The other day pizza delivery man gave me 10 euros extra change, I noticed when I shut the door. I opened the door to call after him, he didn't hear me. 30 minutes later I hear the door bell ring I assume it must be him back because he realised he made the mistake. I had the 10 euros in my hand and handed it to him without him even asking for it...

People make mistakes... Honest people don't take advantage of that...

Finally! Someone who gets it! Thank you! I was beginning to despair at the level of sophistry on this thread.

The_Pete_Fella

abff wrote: »

Seriously? You think what they did is the same as breaking into his house? Really?

In the context of the way you described the situation, yes..

abff wrote: »

Finally! Someone who gets it! Thank you! I was beginning to despair at the level of sophistry on this thread.

I'm sure we are all of the same opinion that if the shop called him up or notified him through the bank of their intentions he would have obliged. It's the manner in which they done it which he is questioning and rightly so IMO.

You commended xcellor for what he done, but to be fair once the pizza boy was gone he didn't make any effort to get the funds back to him. Which is very similar to the OP's scenario if you ask me.

Kenny Logins

Xcellor wrote: »

The other day pizza delivery man gave me 10 euros extra change, I noticed when I shut the door. I opened the door to call after him, he didn't hear me. 30 minutes later I hear the door bell ring I assume it must be him back because he realised he made the mistake. I had the 10 euros in my hand and handed it to him without him even asking for it...

People make mistakes... Honest people don't take advantage of that...

...but what if he let himself in and took the tenner?

Two wrongs don't m... Ah, you know the rest.

lazeedaisy

I work in retail,

From time to time errors are made on the card, it's staff error, no one ever looses their job, it's even happened to the boss. It's tough if it's our error, but if the card was overcharged we ring the bank and they get their customer to contact us, very rarely happens, but we always contact them though.

There is possibly no way to take extra money from a card once the transaction has taken place and you no longer have the card. This is fraud.

But knowing they took the wrong amount you should have said something, you never did.

Unfortunately, there is no come back from the shop in this case, it is fraud, but you willingly let it happen,

Thats just the luck of the draw when you deal with people, the majority of people are ok, I just hope f our paths cross I never make a mistake.

ohnonotgmail

lazeedaisy wrote: »

I work in retail,

From time to time errors are made on the card, it's staff error, no one ever looses their job, it's even happened to the boss. It's tough if it's our error, but if the card was overcharged we ring the bank and they get their customer to contact us, very rarely happens, but we always contact them though.

There is possibly no way to take extra money from a card once the transaction has taken place and you no longer have the card. This is fraud.

But knowing they took the wrong amount you should have said something, you never did.

Unfortunately, there is no come back from the shop in this case, it is fraud, but you willingly let it happen,

Thats just the luck of the draw when you deal with people, the majority of people are ok, I just hope f our paths cross I never make a mistake.

you need to look up the definition of fraud before you go defaming the OP, The OP did not commit fraud. Fraud is a serious criminal offence. The OP has not committed any criminal offence. You need to withdraw that accusation.

hdowney

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you need to look up the definition of fraud before you go defaming the OP, The OP did not commit fraud. Fraud is a serious criminal offence. The OP has not committed any criminal offence. You need to withdraw that accusation.

I think you might find that the poster is referring to the shop when the term fraud is used in their post.

RossieMan

The OP has knowingly cost a person their job most likely. Just to save a couple of euro, some great people around these parts.

ohnonotgmail

hdowney wrote: »

I think you might find that the poster is referring to the shop when the term fraud is used in their post.

that isnt my reading of it

lazeedaisy

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you need to look up the definition of fraud before you go defaming the OP, The OP did not commit fraud. Fraud is a serious criminal offence. The OP has not committed any criminal offence. You need to withdraw that accusation.

That's a high horse you have!

Maybe if you come down from it you will realise I am talking about the second transaction made by the shop.

You need to lighten up, jeez, was that really called for!!!

Farmer Pudsey

abff wrote: »

Seriously? You think what they did is the same as breaking into his house? Really?

Technically very near it. What they did was was illegal.

DM addict wrote: »

I'd agree that the store has the right to charge him more over it, but I'd have thought they'd be obliged to notify him before just charging the card.

No they did not have the right to charge him more. When they issued him a receipt that was the contracted price of the goods. What they did after was breach of that contract.

abff wrote: »

Let's all step back and take a sniff test on this. Technically, could the store have handled it better? Legally, should they have approached it a different way? The answer to both those questions may well be yes. But morally, did they do anything wrong?

Morality and legality are strange bed fellows. What they did was illegal. It was in breach of the final contract they issued the OP and it was in breach of there credit card provider as well.

ardmacha

Fukuyama wrote: »

I'd leave it if I were you. They'll probably make you pay anyways if it was a large amount and this way the retail dude gets to keep a job which most of us have to work during college etc...

Should people who help themselves to your money without your permission keep their jobs?

The guy could have phoned the OP, after all he surely has his number, and apologised for the mixup and asked if he could charge the amount, the OP would probably just have agreed and problem solved. But there is no mention of him attempting to do this.

MadDog76

lazeedaisy wrote: »

I work in retail,

From time to time errors are made on the card, it's staff error, no one ever looses their job, it's even happened to the boss. It's tough if it's our error, but if the card was overcharged we ring the bank and they get their customer to contact us, very rarely happens, but we always contact them though.

There is possibly no way to take extra money from a card once the transaction has taken place and you no longer have the card. This is fraud.

But knowing they took the wrong amount you should have said something, you never did.

Unfortunately, there is no come back from the shop in this case, it is fraud, but you willingly let it happen,

Thats just the luck of the draw when you deal with people, the majority of people are ok, I just hope f our paths cross I never make a mistake.

That's it in a nutshell .......... I think most reasonable people will agree that the shop is entitled to their money and should have followed a procedure to try retrieve the money, ie. contact the Op about the error and try come to a resolution etc.

However, in this case, the shop did not do that ......... instead they took the Op's money without his permission which is, as you said, fraud.

AvonEnniskerry

levitronix wrote:

Irish shop workers are the worst shoplifters. Light-fingered retail staff are helping themselves to €167m in goods and cash a year, the worst rate in Europe, a global survey has found.

Just to put a different spin on things. What's stopping the employee charging the customer out at a discounted (undercharged) price and then recharging the difference at a later date to pocket themselves. It would be foolish and easy enough to track as an employer but only at audit or if you're aware of the situation.

Honestly I don't think any transaction should have been made after the first sale without prior agreement. I don't understand how or why the retailer managed to keep the consumers card details.

Farmer Pudsey

MadDog76 wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell .......... I think most reasonable people will agree that the shop is entitled to their money and should have followed a procedure to try retrieve the money, ie. contact the Op about the error and try come to a resolution etc.

However, in this case, the shop did not do that ......... instead they took the Op's money without his permission which is, as you said, fraud.

Morally maybe be but not legally. Receipt was issued and is binding on retailer

MadDog76

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Morally maybe be but not legally. Receipt was issued and is binding on retailer

I said most reasonable people would agree that the shop is entitled to their money ........