Is it time to be content with renting and not have notions of buying ?

Nucular Arms

witchgirl26 wrote: »

I don't agree that a large majority of people don't finish paying off their mortgage. As has been pointed out, banks won't lend for a term that goes beyond retirement age as it is a bad monetary decision for them. Most people I know who are coming to retirement age have either already paid off the mortgage or are planning to use a retirement lump sum to do so. Not everyone is on the lookout for a bigger, better house.

Because at the end of the day - you own it. It's yours. Someone can't give you 30 days notice to leave it without some default on your side (if still paying a mortgage). Why pay someone else's mortgage, when your own could be a similar amount and you get something at the end?

Fair point, I could be totally wrong as I have nothing to base this on.

In reality though a landlord can't do that either (barring exceptional circumstances), but I agree that it is probably worth it in the long run.

From threshold:

At the end of a lease, your landlord cannot simply end your tenancy. If you have been in the tenancy for more than 6 months and have not been served with a notice of termination you have the right to remain in the tenancy for a further 3 ½ years. There is no legal obligation on you to sign a new lease and you cannot be given notice if you chose not to do so; tenancies can only be ended in accordance with the Residential Tenancies Act 2004.

http://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/how-your-landlord-may-end-your-tenancy/

beauf

witchgirl26 wrote: »

And that's why they stress test you to the limit for mortgages. We are comfortably able to pay the mortgage....

I'm not talking about you personally. My point is the stress test only does so much. Theres a lot of things that can happen in life to drop you out of that band. What happened here is often two people lost their jobs, or one got a new job a lower salary than previously. Things like that.

beauf

Nucular Arms wrote: »

...There is no legal obligation on you to sign a new lease...

Yet a LL has to register a new tenancy with the PRTB for the exsiting tenant.

Re-registration: Each new tenancy must be registered, or if you have the same tenant for 4 years, you must re-register the tenancy agreement after 4 years.

witchgirl26

Nucular Arms wrote: »

Fair point, I could be totally wrong as I have nothing to base this on.

In reality though a landlord can't do that either (barring exceptional circumstances), but I agree that it is probably worth it in the long run.

From threshold:

At the end of a lease, your landlord cannot simply end your tenancy. If you have been in the tenancy for more than 6 months and have not been served with a notice of termination you have the right to remain in the tenancy for a further 3 ½ years. There is no legal obligation on you to sign a new lease and you cannot be given notice if you chose not to do so; tenancies can only be ended in accordance with the Residential Tenancies Act 2004.

http://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/how-your-landlord-may-end-your-tenancy/

A landlord can give you notice to leave once you're in Part 4 but they just have to ensure they give you the correct length of notice and also that they inform you in writing (not a text). And if you have a years lease, a landlord can inform you with the length of time given in that lease (usually a month) that they are terminating the lease at the end of the term. Perfectly within their rights to do both and doesn't contravene the Residential Tenancies Act at all.

wrt40

The rental market in Ireland stinks.

1. Rents are too high. People are paying other peoples mortgages and then some. The rental income should only be covering the mortgage interest plus expenses. The asset is the landlords investment.

2. Which leads to point 2, landlords are not investing in their, erm, investments. They don't give a hoot about the upkeep of the properties, many do not pay their management fees and are happy to let their properties fall apart. I know a couple of landlords who have long since left the country and are simply waiting for prices to go back to boom times so they can recoup their losses.

3. They also don't give a hoot about their tenants. happily allowing them to live in sub standard accommodation and fleece them for every penny they can.

4. Landlords don't give a hoot about their neighbours. I have a neighbouring house that can be best described as a Romanian community centre. I don't know how many of them actually live there, but seriously there are a lot of people in and out, taking up parking spaces and boy do they like to throw parties. But the landlord doesn't give a hoot, they pay their rent and that's all that matters.

5. Tenants don't give a hoot about the property and are happy to let it fall apart, it's not their property, they're only staying a year or two and the landlord is a prick anyway.

6. Tenants have a short term attitude and this affects communities. I regularly get the "we're only here for a couple of years" conversation from tenants on the street. Usually when first being introduced as in "lets get things straight here neighbour", don't expect me to pick up my rubbish or mow the lawn ok. Many are anti-social, as in will throw a party and don't give a **** about the neighbours, do not maintain gardens and strangely do not fully grasp the concept of regular bin collections. I have one neighbour who doesn't even say hello!

so yeah, don't like the way the housing market has gone. I'd much rather people were buying homes, having a bit of pride in their small patch and contributing to the local community.

handlemaster

wrt40 wrote: »

The rental market in Ireland stinks.

1. Rents are too high. People are paying other peoples mortgages and then some. The rental income should only be covering the mortgage interest plus expenses. The asset is the landlords investment.

2. Which leads to point 2, landlords are not investing in their, erm, investments. They don't give a hoot about the upkeep of the properties, many do not pay their management fees and are happy to let their properties fall apart. I know a couple of landlords who have long since left the country and are simply waiting for prices to go back to boom times so they can recoup their losses.

3. They also don't give a hoot about their tenants. happily allowing them to live in sub standard accommodation and fleece them for every penny they can.

4. Landlords don't give a hoot about their neighbours. I have a neighbouring house that can be best described as a Romanian community centre. I don't know how many of them actually live there, but seriously there are a lot of people in and out, taking up parking spaces and boy do they like to throw parties. But the landlord doesn't give a hoot, they pay their rent and that's all that matters.

5. Tenants don't give a hoot about the property and are happy to let it fall apart, it's not their property, they're only staying a year or two and the landlord is a prick anyway.

6. Tenants have a short term attitude and this affects communities. I regularly get the "we're only here for a couple of years" conversation from tenants on the street. Usually when first being introduced as in "lets get things straight here neighbour", don't expect me to pick up my rubbish or mow the lawn ok. Many are anti-social, as in will throw a party and don't give a **** about the neighbours, do not maintain gardens and strangely do not fully grasp the concept of regular bin collections. I have one neighbour who doesn't even say hello!

so yeah, don't like the way the housing market has gone. I'd much rather people were buying homes, having a bit of pride in their small patch and contributing to the local community.

You dont generalise much

riclad

houses are still affordable outside the citys,
dublin,cork etc.
IF prices continue to rise in dublin, at the present rate ,
at some point a 2/3 bed house will be too expensive to buy,
Say you earn 25k, it,ll be hard to get a mortgage to buy a house for 300k .
And the bank will expect you to have 15-20 per cent of the deposit saved .

Peist2007

beauf wrote: »

Yet a LL has to register a new tenancy with the PRTB for the exsiting tenant.

The landlord has to register the tenancy with the PRTB from the outset. The previous poster was talking about at the end of the initial standard year term, the Residential Tenancies Act, 2004 provides that, if not served with a Notice to Quit within the first 6 months, the tenant has a right to a further 3 and a half years from that 6 month point. At the end of the first year when the standard written lease will state its at its end, this isnt the case and the 2004 Act takes precedence and the tenant will have 3 years tenancy from that point with no need to sign a new lease.

Peist2007

handlemaster wrote: »

You dont generalise much

Did you expect him/her to go through every tenancy in existence in this country and critique them all? Of course the point had to be general :rolleyes:

DulchieLaois

Any young couple now days saving up for a deposit within Dublin would have to look outside Dublin realistically for a house, otherwise, they need a huge helping hand from their parents.

and then when they get a house in an estate, one will need to work like asses in order to progress within their jobs to pay the ridicilious mortgage (due to interest rates) and childcare costs, therefore having no time for family and kids.

They will most likely have no time for the local community either, most likely similar story of every other parent in the estate therefore no pride in the area and as a result, people wont care for one another, which long term, results in social decline

The future is bright (not)

desertcircus

Peist2007 wrote: »

Did you expect him/her to go through every tenancy in existence in this country and critique them all? Of course the point had to be general :rolleyes:

Except it wasn't a general point; most of it was highly specific and then extrapolated out to the entire rental sector without any basis.

wrt40

desertcircus wrote: »

Except it wasn't a general point; most of it was highly specific and then extrapolated out to the entire rental sector without any basis.

Clearly I was generalising and my comments do not apply to the whole rental market. But I think many people will find my comments familiar, especially the decline of communities.

awec

If you rent your entire life, what do you do when you retire?

witchgirl26

DulchieLaois wrote: »

Any young couple now days saving up for a deposit within Dublin would have to look outside Dublin realistically for a house, otherwise, they need a huge helping hand from their parents.

and then when they get a house in an estate, one will need to work like asses in order to progress within their jobs to pay the ridicilious mortgage (due to interest rates) and childcare costs, therefore having no time for family and kids.

They will most likely have no time for the local community either, most likely similar story of every other parent in the estate therefore no pride in the area and as a result, people wont care for one another, which long term, results in social decline

The future is bright (not)

Ah here that's extraordinarily pessimistic. As I've said previously, I'm half of a young couple. Himself saved up a deposit for a house by himself and has bought within the past 6 months in Dublin without any help from either set of parents financially at all.

Neither of us work like donkeys in our jobs to progress and both of us do progress well in our chosen fields. We both work full time for large companies but we don't do crazy hours and it isn't expected. Granted we don't have kids at the moment.

As for the estate we live in - we now know our neighbours to smile and say hi to and 1 has even offered us the left over paint he has to paint the garden wall cap stones. We've lent tools across to them when they were fixing their door recently.

It's not easy, I grant you but it can be done to have a work-life balance. I grant you that prices in Dublin are rising but that is predominately down to lack of supply in particular areas where people want to live. Sometimes you need to look outside the box. We did and now love our area.

hopgog

awec wrote: »

If you rent your entire life, what do you do when you retire?

Have a good pension and move to spain countryside where rent will be cheap, you don't need to be in Ireland to get the state pension and hopefully your own one is good enough.

That's the best option I can think of, you have no chance of staying in dublin or big cities

Seanachai

witchgirl26 wrote: »

I think that, like others have said, the security aspect of buying is a big thing here. Because generally leases are only for 1 year, it's hard to really invest yourself into a place. Also you can decorate a bit by using curtains etc but you can't really change anything.

Personally when it comes to anything, I would prefer to be paying over my money to own something at the end of the day rather than paying a similar amount not to. I don't want a giant mansion anywhere at all but somewhere in an area I like that I can make my own.

Some people also want to raise a family in the community they grew up in rural Ireland where rental options aren't great. It's a heritage and continuity thing, it'd be sad to see the families who have lived there for generations priced out by wealthy people who prob won't even live in the houses full time.

witchgirl26

beauf wrote: »

I'm not talking about you personally. My point is the stress test only does so much. Theres a lot of things that can happen in life to drop you out of that band. What happened here is often two people lost their jobs, or one got a new job a lower salary than previously. Things like that.

I know you're not talking about me specifically but I was just using myself to emphasise my earlier point about not looking at a house as a short term thing but a much longer term prospect.

Course banks can stress test you for absolutely everything but they are very stringent in terms of it. And yes things can happen but that's why there are bodies you can go to in those situations which could help renegotiate the mortgage or help you apply for a break of a few months while you get back on your feet. Renting won't protect you there as if you lose your job & your expenses outweigh your income, the landlord can evict you if you're behind in rent quite legally.

witchgirl26

Seanachai wrote: »

Some people also want to raise a family in the community they grew up in rural Ireland where rental options aren't great. It's a heritage and continuity thing, it'd be sad to see the families who have lived there for generations priced out by wealthy people who prob won't even live in the houses full time.

I agree with that as I have family in rural Ireland who have battled with rising house prices because it's a popular tourist spot so lots of holiday homes. I know to stop locals being priced out, the county council there had strict rules about holiday homes being bought etc which has helped. But that's just one place.

fricatus

awec wrote: »

If you rent your entire life, what do you do when you retire?

You rent of course! The question you're asking is how do you pay the rent, and here are the answers:

1. You have a good pension
2. You have a pile of assets that provide you with an income
3. You keep working
4. You win the Lotto
5. You get a sugar daddy
6. You sponge off your kids
7. You rent somewhere very cheap and have little left over, because you only have the state pension

awec

fricatus wrote: »

You rent of course! The question you're asking is how do you pay the rent, and here are the answers:

1. You have a good pension
2. You have a pile of assets that provide you with an income
3. You keep working
4. You win the Lotto
5. You get a sugar daddy
6. You sponge off your kids
7. You rent somewhere very cheap and have little left over, because you only have the state pension

Sounds very risky!

hopgog

awec wrote: »

Sounds very risky!

There is always Euthanasia if you are an OAP that can't afford the rent

fricatus

awec wrote: »

Sounds very risky!

I didn't mean you do all of them!

The Spider

hopgog wrote: »

Have a good pension and move to spain countryside where rent will be cheap, you don't need to be in Ireland to get the state pension and hopefully your own one is good enough.

That's the best option I can think of, you have no chance of staying in dublin or big cities

Or.....you buy a house now, sell it when you retire and paid off, have a huge bag of cash, then move to Spain and rent for peanuts with the pension, and a big wad of cash in the bank!

I know what I'd prefer!

Milly33

Milly33 wrote: »

With renting you see this would be possible... You can move up and you don't have to worry about things like the property tax, septic tank charge or this crap they came up with. A lot of rental properties pay for bins etc and they have to upkeep most of the appliance's its a win win

You do realise you are paying for all that through your rent.

ABC101 wrote: »

It could be 15 years time... however if you are renting, and well qualified... with a number of languages.... when the economy tanks... you can just up sticks and get out / emigrate.

Not everyone wants to bail out of Ireland, some people have no intention of living anywhere but here regardless of what happens in the future.

Nucular Arms wrote: »

To my mind one of the only reasons you would buy a house is if you found somewhere you genuinely loved and intended staying in for the rest of your life.

Personally I would disagree, so far I have been house sharing which isnt very expenisve but Im moving past that stage now and If I'm going to be working in a place for a few years I will be looking at buying rather than renting (I personally see paying large amounts in rent as waste). I would buy something that would be easy to rent out or sell again when time would come to moving back to where I'm from which is where I would see myself staying for good.

beauf wrote: »

Better policies don't apply to Ireland? .

Why would lots and lots of people renting be a better policy, its far better for people to own their own homes.

hopgog

The Spider wrote: »

Or.....you buy a house now, sell it when you retire and paid off, have a huge bag of cash, then move to Spain and rent for peanuts with the pension, and a big wad of cash in the bank!

I know what I'd prefer!

That would be my option too, not that I want to move to, it was just a option for dublin renters when they retire

Sarn

witchgirl26 wrote: »

A landlord can give you notice to leave once you're in Part 4 but they just have to ensure they give you the correct length of notice and also that they inform you in writing (not a text).

Only for very specific reasons can it be ended after 6 months e.g. intention to sell, required for a family member, extensive refurbishment.

witchgirl26 wrote: »

And if you have a years lease, a landlord can inform you with the length of time given in that lease (usually a month) that they are terminating the lease at the end of the term. Perfectly within their rights to do both and doesn't contravene the Residential Tenancies Act at all.

Incorrect, terms in a lease cannot override the protection obtained from a Part IV tenancy. The tenant should advise the LL before the end of the first year that they want to move onto Part IV, but not asking for it does not mean they cannot claim it. Essentially, once 6 months passes Part IV applies with all of the notices and specific reasons required for terminating a tenancy.

riclad

Bedsits are gone,where do you find a cheap flat ,nowadays.
You have to think how much will i spend on rent in 20-30 years.
vs the cost of buying a house.
WE dont all need a 3 bed house with garden.
A 1or 2 bed house is also avaidable ,if you look round.
IF you are single, you can buy a 2bed unit, rent out 1 room to help pay the mortgage.
The trend is for more people to live alone.

Chris_5339762

Still one for buying here... I bought at the bottom of the market and have about 20% of my mortgage paid off. I'm overpaying, so that helps. Every time I overpay by a bit of savings, the amount the bank takes every month decreases. I pay less in my own apartment than anyone I know pays in a house share for rent. (Ok, management fees bump it up a bit but I'm still happy with it). And I'll get my apartment when I'm finished paying it off. They'll never finish paying rent.

And when I have it paid off, I have a massive deposit on hand for a bigger/different place.

I know it doesn't suit everyone, but buying suited me perfectly and I still count it as one of the best decisions I've made.

beauf

Peist2007 wrote: »

The landlord has to register the tenancy with the PRTB from the outset.....

My point was that LL has to pay for registering the same tenant again.

johnnyskeleton

handlemaster wrote: »

this opinion piece certainly makes sense for the renter brigade. why strap yourself down.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/far-better-to-be-a-generation-of-renters-than-falling-victim-to-negative-equity-31144042.html

On a superficial level buying was better than renting as prices went up, and renting was better when prices when down.

Recently both rents and prices have been going ip so youre goosed either way.

But she speak about the benefits of renting here as though it was a foregone conclusion that prices will drop dramatically soon and/or that it is axiomatic that rents are lower than mortgage interest.

So in 2007 it was a no brainer - double digit drops, high inest on a mortgage vs fairly low rents.

Now the rent vs buy analysis is very nuanced.