Is it time to be content with renting and not have notions of buying ?

beauf

witchgirl26 wrote: »

I know you're not talking about me specifically but I was just using myself to emphasise my earlier point about not looking at a house as a short term thing but a much longer term prospect.

Course banks can stress test you for absolutely everything but they are very stringent in terms of it. And yes things can happen but that's why there are bodies you can go to in those situations which could help renegotiate the mortgage or help you apply for a break of a few months while you get back on your feet. Renting won't protect you there as if you lose your job & your expenses outweigh your income, the landlord can evict you if you're behind in rent quite legally.

No offence but you have a very rose tinted view of things, that seems to have missed the last 10yrs of Irish housing market.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/banks-yet-to-agree-restructuring-deal-with-70pc-of-homeowners-in-mortgage-arrears-31147893.html

LL's cannot evict you if you are in arrears. There's a long legal process that's not fit for purpose.

hopgog

beauf wrote: »

No offence but you have a very rose tinted view of things, that seems to have missed the last 10yrs of Irish housing market.


LL's cannot evict you if you are in arrears. There's a long legal process that's not fit for purpose.

LL can evict for non payment, banks can't repo for non payment, why does anyone pay for their home

beauf

Maeve Tiny Jeans wrote: »

...Why would lots and lots of people renting be a better policy, its far better for people to own their own homes.

In what you quoted, I wasn't talking about promoting renting over ownership at all. I was talking about a policy of better protection and controls for both LL and tenants. Our current system is a shambles, especially for LL's.

But ownership isn't an option for many if they are priced out of the market.

beauf

hopgog wrote: »

LL can evict for non payment, banks can't repo for non payment, why does anyone pay for their home

Many don't.

Into The Blue

couldnt stand the thought of worrying about rent as a pensioner..

Bad enough when i was a youngfella..

shruikan2553

handlemaster wrote: »

surely not all LL are like that.

Not all but I've had enough dealings with EAs and LLs to make me want to buy my own place as soon as possible.

meeeeh

I think it really depends where you are in life. If you are looking to settle down, start a family and are looking for somewhere long term then buying is better option. Negative equity doesn't matter if you are happy in the house and can afford repayments. If you get into financial trouble it definitely isn't pleasant but there are ways to deal with it.

Renting is perfect if you don't know where you want to be in five years. But renting after 30 or 35 in my opinion is secure only when It is a preferred option and not an only option. If you are forced renting some dive because you have no other options then you are in much bigger trouble than a bit of negative equity.

That being said building or buying a fake Georgian mansion that you can't even afford to heat just because you want to imitate english gentry is stupidity and lack of taste on a different level.

YellowFeather

hopgog wrote: »

You are not going to get a mortgage that goes past 68, so they all are meant to finish then. As you become an OAP you will own outright your house and there is a huge security in have at least a roof over your head without having to pay rents that might increase forcing you out of your support area when you are most vulnerable

This isn't correct AFAIK. One of my family member's mortgage structure (from ~2008) means that they will be continuing payments well passed retirement, unless they can bulk pay off it off with their retirement sum.

Mortgage / rent has been my second-highest outgoing, after tax.. For me - I would still have notions of buying (and paying off) so that, sooner or later, I would not have to have that extra expenditure. I would rather hit 65+ without having to pay €xxx, or €x,xxx a month.

Is the argument that paying rent for the rest of your life and then forfeiting that property when you die will cost less than buying a house and it being sold when you don't need it any more and keeping the proceeds? If so - I don't get it.

marathonic

YellowFeather wrote: »

This isn't correct AFAIK. One of my family member's mortgage structure (from ~2008) means that they will be continuing payments well passed retirement, unless they can bulk pay off it off with their retirement sum.

The mortgage you could expect to be approved for in 2015 is SIGNIFICANTLY different to what you could have expected pre-2009.

beauf

marathonic wrote: »

The mortgage you could expect to be approved for in 2015 is SIGNIFICANTLY different to what you could have expected pre-2009.

That depends how far you go back. Pre boom at was 2.5x one salary + 1x a second salary with about 10~15% deposit upfront.

witchgirl26

beauf wrote: »

No offence but you have a very rose tinted view of things, that seems to have missed the last 10yrs of Irish housing market.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/banks-yet-to-agree-restructuring-deal-with-70pc-of-homeowners-in-mortgage-arrears-31147893.html

LL's cannot evict you if you are in arrears. There's a long legal process that's not fit for purpose.

I don't have a rose tinted view at all. I have siblings who are stuck with apartments or houses that they bought during the boom that are now worth less than half. How is it rose tinted to say that you should think through if you'd be happy to stay put in a place if you got stuck like that?

I'm not saying that buying is all flowers and roses - it's not at all but personally I prefer that security than renting.

I'm not saying that the process of the restructuring is perfect but I do know of some people who have been able to discuss it with their banks. Sometimes it's as simple as taking a payment break for a couple of months while they sort things out, other times, yes it is more complicated.

I think you'll find that a lot of the other posts in this thread would disagree without about evicting when in arrears. It is possible and a much less drawn out process than evicting for other reasons.

witchgirl26

Sarn wrote: »

Only for very specific reasons can it be ended after 6 months e.g. intention to sell, required for a family member, extensive refurbishment.

Yes there are specific reasons, I just was making the point that you don't have the automatic right to just stay there. At the end of the day, it still belongs to the landlord.

Sarn wrote: »

Incorrect, terms in a lease cannot override the protection obtained from a Part IV tenancy. The tenant should advise the LL before the end of the first year that they want to move onto Part IV, but not asking for it does not mean they cannot claim it. Essentially, once 6 months passes Part IV applies with all of the notices and specific reasons required for terminating a tenancy.

There is a part where if a shorter notice period has been agreed by both landlord and tenant, it can over-ride the notice period from Part IV and I have seen it argued before that signing a lease that gives a 30-day notice is considered an agreement to this. I never said that they couldn't claim Part IV at all but I had thought that as long as the terms in the lease weren't in contravention to Part IV, they could be used. Apologies if I was wrong on this point.

beauf

witchgirl26 wrote: »

...I think you'll find that a lot of the other posts in this thread would disagree without about evicting when in arrears. It is possible and a much less drawn out process than evicting for other reasons.

A lot of people have no experience of overstaying. For those that do...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90677579&postcount=15
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93601868&postcount=1
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90594625&postcount=146

hopgog

beauf wrote: »

A lot of people have no experience of overstaying. For those that do...

Theres are ways to get overholders to leave but you can't talk about it here.

kuntboy

Sleepy wrote: »

you'll always at least have a roof over your head once the mortgage has been cleared.

Actually, you wont. Because now, thanks to property tax, you don't really "own" your house at all, you effectively "rent" it off the government. If you don't pay this barbaric medieval penury, the state will eventually repossess and auction off your assets, including your house, to recoup it.

In fact they will probably force you to sell it to pay for your old age care anyway by the time it comes around, as Western governments will be profoundly broke by then.

All part of the increasing ability of the state to legally steal peoples' assets.

NewDirection

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

On a superficial level buying was better than renting as prices went up, and renting was better when prices when down.

Recently both rents and prices have been going ip so youre goosed either way.

But she speak about the benefits of renting here as though it was a foregone conclusion that prices will drop dramatically soon and/or that it is axiomatic that rents are lower than mortgage interest.

So in 2007 it was a no brainer - double digit drops, high inest on a mortgage vs fairly low rents.

Now the rent vs buy analysis is very nuanced.

I'd massively agree with this. A lot of posters seem to be in the rent camp or the buy camp, but rarely do you see someone discuss it as a changing market. At times renting makes more sense, at times buying makes more sense.
Its the same way when someone gets a tip on the horse, they back them irregardless of price, when really you should ask, 'at what odds?'.

In my area (not Dublin) the maths tells me that if your settling in the area, buy makes sense. Its simple enough maths as the interest on mortgage + all house related expenses is less than the cost of rent. Coupled with the fact that that house price and rent will go up in the medium term, the gap will only widen.

That's not to say its right to buy in all places at all times. Do the maths for the house you want, in the area you want and see what the answer comes out to be.

Seanachai

kuntboy wrote: »

Actually, you wont. Because now, thanks to property tax, you don't really "own" your house at all, you effectively "rent" it off the government. If you don't pay this barbaric medieval penury, the state will eventually repossess and auction off your assets, including your house, to recoup it.

In fact they will probably force you to sell it to pay for your old age care anyway by the time it comes around, as Western governments will be profoundly broke by then.

All part of the increasing ability of the state to legally steal peoples' assets.

It's not looking great at the moment, unless there's a political revolution. You'd be hoping that social mobility will increase and inequality will gradually decrease but I don't see that happening with the current course. They've got the game rigged and it's hard to see how you can crack that game. I know I won't be in any care home anyway, I'll be taking a walk in the woods as they say before it came to that. It's just not in me to live like that, I'm a bit misantrophic as it is and I'm only young without being couped up in some beige prison watching whoever's presenting Telly Bingo in 2062.

Valetta

kuntboy wrote: »

In fact they will probably force you to sell it to pay for your old age care anyway by the time it comes around, as Western governments will be profoundly broke by then.

All part of the increasing ability of the state to legally steal peoples' assets.

Do you expect to be able to keep your asset, whilst having the state -i.e. taxpayers, pay for your old age care?

hopgog

Valetta wrote: »

Do you expect to be able to keep your asset, whilst having the state -i.e. taxpayers, pay for your old age care?

You paid for your old age care over your working life, but euthanasia should be an option rather then forced into care homes, I know I will get enough morphine when the time comes they want me to sell the house to go to old person prison

Valetta

hopgog wrote: »

You paid for your old age care over your working life, but euthanasia should be an option rather then forced into care homes, I know I will get enough morphine when the time comes they want me to sell the house to go to old person prison

I genuinely feel sorry for people with that attitude.

Very defeatist.

hopgog

Valetta wrote: »

I genuinely feel sorry for people with that attitude.

Very defeatist.

If I am so feabile I have to go to a home I don't want to live, atm I am pretty much self sustainable, being forced into a locked rigid home does not appeal in the slightest. I am already defeated if I can't look after myself

JJJJNR

No way once my mortgage is paid off I'm selling up and moving to Spain in 30 years. nice to have something to look forward to .

MarkAnthony

Some points from reading through.

Rent Controls - Never going to happen. These have been tested and found to be unconstitutional. Changing this would require a referendum. With most of the established population here owning not a chance it would ever pass.

Negative Equity - Is always blow out of all proprtion my the Sindo. It's a pain in the bank but not fatal to moving. If you've a big house in SoCoDublin, it's a problem but if you've already got the big house you don't need to move. It seems you won't be forced to either given current policies but maybe we won;t step on that landmine! If like me you paid mad money for an apaertment it's very easy to rent it out and move, even on a modest salary and negative equity.

Inflation - Works for you in you have a mortgage but against you if you rent.

Compound Interest / Interest Rates - You're not completely out of the woods in relation to this. Rents will, within certain bounds, follow a mortgage repayment. As for not being at the mercy of compount interest, who's really at the mercy of it if you're paying the LL's mortgage.

Security - Theortically we're already working on 4 years tenure. Hows that working out in practice?

Retirement - Yes you might have moved to the big house over the course of the mortgage. But that's when you downsixe and release equity which has been protected againt inflation to a degree. It's fine to say keep renting, but contries where this is ingrained have this built in to provison for old age. We almost expect someone to be accomodation payment free in our retirement planning.

Paying Someone elses Mortgage - I think this is a valid criticism but my main concern and little consipracy theory is how much tax you're paying indirectly. I've a €550 per month mortgage and rent out at €1150. I don't even break even. I'm paying the effective 51/53% (can never remeber which) tax rate. Antoher way to look at it is my tenants paying it and what a boon for the exchecker! €500 a month in tax where as mortgage holders until recently were getting a tax break!

Portability - In a functioning market buying is almost as portable as renting!

Now I'm not saying there isn't a corps of people that would not be better off renting. Here for a short period, need portability for work I absolutely understand. These people should be in high qulaity, well managed accomodation not paddy property invester kips.

Anyways that's my rant, sorry about the spelling at work and the browser doesnt have a spell check.

handlemaster

JJJJNR wrote: »

No way once my mortgage is paid off I'm selling up and moving to Spain in 30 years. nice to have something to look forward to .

I hope by then if not now you can speak spanish

fricatus

handlemaster wrote: »

I hope by then if not now you can speak spanish

Nonsense mate, they all speak English, innit? You can get this morning's Daily Express and read it over egg and chips in Torremolinos!

Seanachai

Valetta wrote: »

I genuinely feel sorry for people with that attitude.

Very defeatist.

If you are healthy and you have money then it's not so much of a problem, being elderly, sick and broke would not be a great place to be at. The ideal situation would be to develop better community care for elderly people at home, there's no way in hell either of my parents would go into a home no matter how comfortable they are, they've told me this already. If I am healthy and have the right support or am well enough to stay independent I'd have no problem carrying on until the natural end. I believe people should have legal access to euthanasia also though.

pwurple

Seanachai wrote: »

If you are healthy and you have money then it's not so much of a problem, being elderly, sick and broke would not be a great place to be at. The ideal situation would be to develop better community care for elderly people at home, there's no way in hell either of my parents would go into a home no matter how comfortable they are, they've told me this already. If I am healthy and have the right support or am well enough to stay independent I'd have no problem carrying on until the natural end. I believe people should have legal access to euthanasia also though.

There are services for carers in the home. It's more expensive, but what I'd go for if I get to that stage.

Euthanasia I'd never agree with. One of my brothers would have persuaded my parents to take that route already if it was available... For their house.

amdublin

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Still one for buying here... I bought at the bottom of the market and have about 20% of my mortgage paid off. I'm overpaying, so that helps. Every time I overpay by a bit of savings, the amount the bank takes every month decreases. I pay less in my own apartment than anyone I kno....

Are you really overpaying if they take less every month??

Are you not just paying what you should be paying every month, some of it in lump payment?

I would have thought to overpay you need to pay the repayment very month, plus a lump sum every now and again.

handlemaster

fricatus wrote: »

Nonsense mate, they all speak English, innit? You can get this morning's Daily Express and read it over egg and chips in Torremolinos!

living the spanish dream, Paddy style ... LOL

handlemaster

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/are-you-too-old-for-a-mortgage-or-will-you-just-have-to-pay-up-faster-1.2182533


interesting take on the new age profile of home buyers....