Graham Dwyer court case *READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING*

Miaireland

I did wonder about the Judge's comments after the jury found Dwyer gulity? Could they be someway used in an appeal?

I remember thinking that it was an odd thing for a Judge to say.

Mallagio

This guy will hopefully live until 100 and never be a free man again.

In Ireland though he'll probably be surfing the aul web by 2025 - a free man.

3rdDegree

Miaireland wrote: »

I did wonder about the Judge's comments after the jury found Dwyer gulity? Could they be someway used in an appeal?

I remember thinking that it was an odd thing for a Judge to say.

Hardly matters after they brought in the verdict. Whatever he says can no longer have any influence surely?

seamus

murpho999 wrote: »

Don't agree that your perceived judge's bias is a factor for an appeal as he was convicted by a jury not the judge.
He can only appeal on limited grounds from what I have read and is unlikely to succeed.

The judge's action can play against him, particularly in any direction he gives to the jury. But as you quite rightly point out, since the judge doesn't decide the verdict, the basis of the appeal is on the strength of the evidence or the conduct/bias of the jury.

It's very rare for the latter to come up, but in a case like this filled with entirely circumstantial evidence, all it takes is a few reasonable doubts to order a complete retrial. For example, as the link in the journal quite rightly points out, the videos could very easily be seen to be prejudicial to the jury's attitude towards Dwyer. Just because someone is into bloodletting, doesn't prove they killed or intended to kill anyone. But that could easily create a negative bias in the jurys' minds towards Dwyer.

There's no way in hell an appeal could secure a release, but a retrial isn't out of the question.

He's a cornered animal at this stage, he has absolutely nothing to lose by appealing.

Omackeral

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you really think he will be allowed out at the first opportunity?

No. The contrary. He won't get out for a long long time, unless on grounds of an appeal or some technicality.

Turtwig

This was such a tragedy. I don't know anything about Elaine O'Hara, her family and friends; the Dwyer family, their family and friends; the people who testified in court, their family and friends. I don't know anything about those people who it might be easy to forget are humans. Yet even though I didn't really try I know just about everything about Elaine's death and those people that helped the carriage of justice's testimony. In many ways, media coverage of Graham Dwyer's actions and interests usurped those of Elaine. The people who testified to convict this killer had very private details exposed and their names and faces splashed across just about every media outlet you could find. The tabloids showed them no compassion or mercy. They showed little to Elaine's family. They just published content that disgusted people, made them outraged at what a monster this killer was - all before he was even convicted. Something his appeal will surely use. We got reports on when Graham O'Dwyer ate with his family. When he was on the late late. When he was talking about mirrors. What plans he had for what weekend. Charlier Brooker parodied that aspect of media reporting better than I ever could so I'm not going to try. I'm just going to paraphrase his rhetoric: Why the fck should we care? Why do we insist in the glorification of monsters rather the empathy towards victims? A human life was lost, yet if you went by the banter I heard and read, the judgements cast upon victims and witnesses alike you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

And there were so many victims in this. Real people, who had their dignity taken from them in so many ways. Hopefully now they can get some of that back - and their lives. One person won't get their life back and most people will only know the apparent ignominious aspects of that life: that's the greatest tragedy. There was a life there. Maybe next time more light could be shed on that?

RIP Elaine.
Thoughts are with the families and friends of all affected by this horrible ordeal.

Banjo String

Laois_Man wrote: »

There is absolutely no way that anybody (other than O'Dwyer) knows, whether they are a judge or not, what Elaine's cries were like, or even if there were any, or what she or he was doing when she was stabbed, or what he said to her, or for that matter, even that she was stabbed at all!

I was following the case closely.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/animal-sounds-far-worse-than-video-images-31065622.html

Specialun

GD was just an animal. Its as simple as that

Probably the highest profile case since veronica guerin

Miaireland

3rdDegree wrote: »

Hardly matters after they brought in the verdict. Whatever he says can no longer have any influence surely?

Probably not, I just thougt it was a bit strange and had wondered could he claim that he might not get a fair appeal due to the Judge who presided over his trail basically telling everyone that he thougt that he was gulity.

Then again I have never really heard the judges comments to the jury being quoted in the media.

I hope poor Elaine is at peace. My thought are with her family.

Mallagio

The amount of coincidences in this particular case was unbelievable wasn't it?

deseil

Mallagio wrote: »

The amount of coincidences in this particular case was unbelievable wasn't it?

It really was mind boggling its like the universe conspired to get him caught, thankfully

PandaPoo

Mallagio wrote: »

The amount of coincidences in this particular case was unbelievable wasn't it?

Like what? Sorry I don't know much about the case

snoopy12

PandaPoo wrote: »

Like what? Sorry I don't know much about the case

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ten-chance-events-that-umasked-graham-dwyer-and-his-near-perfect-murder-1.2156011

fryup

Mallagio wrote: »

The amount of coincidences in this particular case was unbelievable wasn't it?

deseil wrote: »

It really was mind boggling its like the universe conspired to get him caught, thankfully

a higher power?

i'm usually skeptical about such things but it makes you wonder

PressRun

Feel terribly sorry too for his wife and children. Imagine having to go back into work and school after everything this creep has done. He has destroyed the lives of those closest to him along with the lives of Elaine and her family.

cml387

About the media coverage, all the journalists covering the case self censored the most graphic evidence. Bearing in mind what we actually heard, I'm glad they did.

I hope no-one buys the cash in books that will arise from this case, but I'm sure they'll be bestsellers:mad:.

LadyAthame

The only service he provide now is being useful to psychiatrists so that they can better understand people like him. He has destroyed his victim's family and his own.

LadyAthame

deseil wrote: »

It really was mind boggling its like the universe conspired to get him caught, thankfully

I wonder were there others?

Roquentin

i wonder how many more graham dwyers are out there?

Dwarf.Shortage

From a psychological viewpoint would it be fair to say that an individual who commits a crime like this one is unlikely to be satiated for life by a single occurrence?

It's pretty chilling to think that if all of the coincidences that caught Dwyer out hadn't occurred there's every chance he'd still be lurking around BDSM sites looking for the next troubled submissive he could lure in and manipulate into satisfying his twisted urges.

To be honest I don't even want to think about the possibility that if you go the other way with the time line there may be another victim, like much of the case that thought is so unsettling you wish it wasn't real but that wish goes unanswered. Given Elaine O'Hara's family had tried to make peace with her death assuming it was suicide (Newstalk earlier today) what's to say there isn't another family out there living under that assumption, unaware of the end their loved one truly came to. Would you even want them to know? would you want to know yourself or in the face of an end so bleak, is ignorance bliss?

RIP Elaine O'Hara, a fragile soul who did not deserve to be enveloped by the evil that brought about her end.

Mallagio

fryup wrote: »

a higher power?

i'm usually skeptical about such things but it makes you wonder

Who knows, but this guy thought he had it all wrapped up down to a Tee, and I'm glad that the truth somehow came out - even if the odds of it were 1,000,000/1.

What an absolute despicable human being preying on a vulnerable girl like that.

PressRun

The chances of the jogger remembering that he met her in a place where the CCTV cameras just happened to not be working thus proving she was carrying out Dwyer's instructions is almost like something from a movie. An incredible detail.

People complain about the Guards a lot, but their dedication to unearthing what happened here was fantastic.

LadyAthame

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

From a psychological viewpoint would it be fair to say that an individual who commits a crime like this one is unlikely to be satiated for life by a single occurrence?

It's pretty chilling to think that if all of the coincidences that caught Dwyer out hadn't occurred there's every chance he'd still be lurking around BDSM sites looking for the next troubled submissive he could lure in and manipulate into satisfying his twisted urges.

To be honest I don't even want to think about the possibility that if you go the other way with the time line there may be another victim, like much of the case that thought is so unsettling you wish it wasn't real but those wishes go unanswered.

Agreed, it was discovered so haphazardly and also he was already so blazé and practiced. The way he psychologically manipulated her was disgusting.

You get a lot of people in that scene who have no interest in the actual scene. But want to use the fantasies that people have to commit actual acts of violence

The 42-year-old was not really interested in being a “master”.

He REALLY just wanted to control her and kill her. Even when she was in hospital he had no concern for her as a person.

He told her, “You must be punished for trying to kill yourself without me.”

She should have realized from the beginning but she was so ill she couldn't.

He had by now mastered the art of the double life; skilled with computers, he had set up separate profiles for himself and his wife on their home PC, so she could never log on and accidently find the images he liked to view and the documents he had written. They included a graphic and sickeningly violent fantasy about murdering a young woman he was in contact with online, Darci Day.

Darci Day testified against him.So there were others he was in contact with. Elaine was not enough.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/graham-dwyer-and-elaine-o-hara-the-master-slave-relationship-1.2156173

She should have realized but was too ill. She could have gotten better without that crap in her life. She was studying childcare and she could have had a happy future.

LadyAthame

PressRun wrote: »

.

People complain about the Guards a lot, but their dedication to unearthing what happened here was fantastic.

I think they had a fantastic gut instinct. And realized how serious the nature of the crime was.

LadyAthame

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Eligible in 8. Will probably do 12-13.

THAT would be awful...life should MEAN life.

For Forks Sake

LadyAthame wrote: »

THAT would be awful...life should MEAN life.

Subject to direction from a minister for justice at the time, and there ain't a person alive will let him out.

LadyAthame

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Subject to direction from a minister for justice at the time, and there ain't a person alive will let him out.

Good to know.

nokia69

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Subject to direction from a minister for justice at the time, and there ain't a person alive will let him out.

well we hope so

but there are plenty of people who think locking people up is just not nice

eviltwin

I heard on the news today the night before he was arrested he was watching a snuff movie showing a pregnant woman dying a 'horiffic death'. Utter scrum. I hope he rots.

ohnonotgmail

Omackeral wrote: »

No. The contrary. He won't get out for a long long time, unless on grounds of an appeal or some technicality.

then you have got what i said backwards.

smash

Esra Uryun's case is to be re-opened due to similarities http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/graham-dwyer-kill-missing-mum-5425614

Mallagio

Roquentin wrote: »

i wonder how many more graham dwyers are out there?

Wow I don't even want to think of that. Please god there isn't.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

I heard on the news today the night before he was arrested he was watching a snuff movie showing a pregnant woman dying a 'horiffic death'. Utter scrum. I hope he rots.

I really wish I hadn't read that.

El Weirdo

LadyAthame wrote: »

... skilled with computers, he had set up separate profiles for himself and his wife on their home PC...

Because this takes "skill" now?

Mallagio

I would be very surprised if this was his first time doing something evil like this.

Crazy B*stard

Laois_Man

The bit that bothers me is he's reported to have told prison officers that there are far more dangerous men than him out there in the BDSM website world

Quite possible!

bajer101

A lot of posts have mentioned that he may only serve a few years. This will not happen. Assuming that his appeal fails, he will likely spend a very, very long time in jail. He may very well die behind bars. His release on license would be at the discretion of the Minister of Justice, and there is no way that any Minister of Justice will sign the release papers for such a notorious murderer.

There has also been mention of grounds for appeal and about how the Judge showed bias. While most of his bias was exhibited after the verdict was returned, the defense did try to call a mistrial and to get the Judge to recuse himself during the trial as they claimed that he was glaring at O'Dwyer during some evidence and the defense claimed that this would prejudice the jury. I expect that this will play a large part in any appeal.

Mallagio

Laois_Man wrote: »

The bit that bothers me is he's reported to have told prison officers that there are far more dangerous men than him out there in the BDSM website world

Quite possible!

Yeah but that nut would say that, wouldn't he?!

tayto lover

I really feel for Elaine O'Hara's family and friends.
Nobody deserved an end like she got at the hands of this monster.
I also feel for O' Dwyer's wife and family.
They must really be suffering too.

salmocab

he will likely spend over 25 years in prison the 7 year thing is only a first hearing date it would only be used for release in cases with certain circumstances as life is the only sentence for murder allowed, so if someone killed their partner who was suffering and wanted to die but was incapable of committing suicide then they would be guilty of murder. They would likely serve a short sentence and might be released in 7 years. The current average life sentence is 22 years and has been rising for the last few years. Dwyer is likely to serve an above average sentence due to the nature of his crime and will likely serve a very long sentence probably over 25 years and maybe 30 odd. Im sure an appeal will come though.

Heisenberg1

salmocab wrote: »

he will likely spend over 25 years in prison the 7 year thing is only a first hearing date it would only be used for release in cases with certain circumstances as life is the only sentence for murder allowed, so if someone killed their partner who was suffering and wanted to die but was incapable of committing suicide then they would be guilty of murder. They would likely serve a short sentence and might be released in 7 years. The current average life sentence is 22 years and has been rising for the last few years. Dwyer is likely to serve an above average sentence due to the nature of his crime and will likely serve a very long sentence probably over 25 years and maybe 30 odd. Im sure an appeal will come though.

The average current life sentence is 22 years have you a link for this information?

Montroseee

Laois_Man wrote: »

The bit that bothers me is he's reported to have told prison officers that there are far more dangerous men than him out there in the BDSM website world

Quite possible!

A Garda once told me you'd be surprised who lives within a few miles radius of you, no matter where in Dublin it is. This case really reminded of that day which was 20 odd years ago at this stage.

superelliptic

Montroseee wrote: »

A Garda once told me you'd be surprised who lives within a few miles radius of you, no matter where in Dublin it is. This case really reminded of that day which was 20 odd years ago at this stage.

Scary thought indeed. Makes a good argument for getting to know your neighbours better in that strangers / oddballs would be more noticeable.

LadyAthame

Laois_Man wrote: »

The bit that bothers me is he's reported to have told prison officers that there are far more dangerous men than him out there in the BDSM website world

Quite possible!

It's true that there are nutjobs. Usually you can tell straight off. It's not something you should enter into just online in my opinion.

Most people into it are normal kind people. This was totally messed up in every way from the beginning.

But people assume everyone is like them if you know what I mean. Dwyer was nothing to do with BDSM but exploited it. And there are many out there like him. Both men and women actually.

I know many wonderful people who are apart of that scene but not online. You should expect the same level of respect and kindness as you would from anyone.

Treating her death with due respect should mean an examination of the social context that allowed a man to convince a woman that his sexual desire to stab and kill her was within the bounds of the acceptable. It should mean attention to the cultural mainstreaming of BDSM. You need to ask why she could not tell he was an abuser and a nutjob?

Henwin

2 points about the case i would like to make.
ealaine apparantly told her friends she was seeing a married man who liked to hurt her and she was afraid of him, why didnt they report this to the guards when she went missing
and people like Dywer, how do they become so evil, were they born like this or did something happen to them when they were younger and they turned into a monster. he said he began having these feelings at 14, did something happen then to kick start these feelings. are pysicos born or made

Dwarf.Shortage

Montroseee wrote: »

A Garda once told me you'd be surprised who lives within a few miles radius of you, no matter where in Dublin it is. This case really reminded of that day which was 20 odd years ago at this stage.

I know this is fairly irrelevant but I was at the Late Late show mid February 2014 and when someone posted the photo of him at TLLS earlier in the thread I noticed that I sat in the exact seat he sat in a few months previous, didn't get a sense it needed to be exorcised or anything unfortuntely.

These people go unnoticed, until they're noticed at which point everyone believes they'd have noticed them.

The media don't help this "retrospectively evil looking" phenomenon, taking 500 pictures of him walking out of court then trawling through them to find the one where he looks the craziest.

LadyAthame

Henwin wrote: »

2 points about the case i would like to make.
ealaine apparantly told her friends she was seeing a married man who liked to hurt her and she was afraid of him, why didnt they report this to the guards when she went missing
and people like Dywer, how do they become so evil, were they born like this or did something happen to them when they were younger and they turned into a monster. he said he began having these feelings at 14, did something happen then to kick start these feelings. are pysicos born or made

There are three types of people. Those who are comfortable talking about sex and are open. Those who are private and then those who are hypocritical. The fact that she was seeing a married man may have made them want to protect her reputation. It's not the right thing to do. We know this. It does not fit with her character. Now I don't suggest for a minute it makes her anything but the victim.

But I think it might explain why they didn't say. I do think hidden relationships are slightly odd.

Dwarf.Shortage

LadyAthame wrote: »

You need to ask why she could not tell he was an abuser and a nutjob?

She was mentally ill and fragile, he was excellent at manipulating that. People lay on their death bed knowing whats killing them yet unable to stop it. People can die of colds because of weak immune systems, for Elaine O'Hara it was her mind rather than her body than was rendered unable to protect itself by illness.

nokia69

superelliptic wrote: »

Scary thought indeed. Makes a good argument for getting to know your neighbours better in that strangers / oddballs would be more noticeable.

but what difference would it make

Dwyer had plenty of friends who had no idea what he was up too, and TBF how could they know

we have very little idea what goes on in other peoples heads

LadyAthame

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

She was mentally ill and fragile, he was excellent at manipulating that.

It's why he picked her. Plus the fact that she was a generally amiable kind person.