Graham Dwyer court case *READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING*

Neyite

realdanbreen wrote: »

Given that this guy is no fool, he has passed whatever exams are necessary to become an architect, how was he so stupid as to not totally destroy the phones,keys,bondage gear etc. Had he done that he would be out and about in the Sunshine now.

He would also have known how deep a reservoir is likely to be. It went from an average low of 20 feet to 2 feet depth in that hot summer. Plus, if you have chains and the like in the bag, you can assume that they will sink nicely into the mud below. He probably figured that even if the phones were recovered, that being underwater for over a year, they would yield no information. That decision cost him his liberty. What would the Gardai have had to go on without all those texts?

Muff Richardson

One aspect of this whole story that has bothered me is throughout the trial there were continuous references to Elaine O'Hara as "childcare worker" like she was some upstanding citizen, no doubt she was a victim but she was also a very sick person with some very unhealthy interests. Was she not Garda vetted for suitability to be around children and care for them? Should somebody who has long-term grave psychological problems be permitted to work with children? Why wasn't anybody asking this or why isn't anybody asking this now? From what I've read it appears that she was really nothing more than a newsagent employee for the most part and that the "childcare worker" label was attached by the media in order to create the upstanding citizen and victim image.

I don't think its fair to argue what she does in her own private life is her own business as her interests stretched far beyond any kind of healthy "kinky sex" type of scenario...she along with Dwyer was twisted. Granted he coerced, manipulated, bullied her...the list goes on but didn't she go of her own accord actively seeking fairly warped sexual activities before meeting him, I mean that site she signed up to by herself isn't exactly tinder. Don't get me wrong, Dwyer is an animal and I'm glad he's locked up but I do find it disturbing that no questions are being asked of why she was permitted to be care for children in her mental state. Imagine if roles were reversed and O'Hara was a male in these circumstances.

Frigga_92

Just reading through some of the posts from yesterday dealing with the fact that Elaine O'Hara knowingly had an affair with a married man.
Elaine O'Hara had deep psychological issues, her family and medical experts have said that she just wanted someone to show an interest in her, to mind her, to love her and she must have thought this relationship with Dwyer was what she was looking for.
He is obviously a very manipulative, calculating man. In the beginning he probably said anything and everything he knew would build up her feelings for him. He probably withheld information about his personal life for quite a time, until she became dependent on the relationship and then when she did find out, she was too involved to end things, her mental state would've had a big part to play in this. I don't know much about BDSM or Dom/Sub relationships but from what I've read, maybe he convinced her of certain things, that he was entitled to another life, a wife, a family?
Also, bear in mind that Dwyer is obviously a very very skilled liar, this is important, how else did he keep his activities, his interests, a secret from his wife and family? Who knows what lies he told Elaine throughout their relationship to keep that hold on her?
I believe he specifically sought out someone with mental health problems because he knew he could overpower them mentally and suck them into his game.

ectoraige

JPCN1 wrote: »

Justice has to be in the open.

What does that mean though in practical terms? Journalists could still attend the trial, and members of the public physically attend should they desire. When the trial has concluded then it could still be reported on in whatever form the media choose to - Sunday supplements, TV specials, books, whatever.

As it was, they public gallery was cleared for portions of the trial.

All I'm saying is I don't think the daily reporting of the case in progress was of any benefit to Irish society.

Neyite

Muff Richardson wrote: »

One aspect of this whole story that has bothered me is throughout the trial there were continuous references to Elaine O'Hara as "childcare worker" like she was some upstanding citizen, no doubt she was a victim but she was also a very sick person with some very unhealthy interests. Was she not Garda vetted for suitability to be around children and care for them? Should somebody who has long-term grave psychological problems be permitted to work with children? Why wasn't anybody asking this or why isn't anybody asking this now? From what I've read it appears that she was really nothing more than a newsagent employee for the most part and that the "childcare worker" label was attached by the media in order to create the upstanding citizen and victim image.

I don't think its fair to argue what she does in her own private life is her own business as her interests stretched far beyond any kind of healthy "kinky sex" type of scenario...she along with Dwyer was twisted. Granted he coerced, manipulated, bullied her...the list goes on but didn't she go of her own accord actively seeking fairly warped sexual activities before meeting him, I mean that site she signed up to by herself isn't exactly tinder. Don't get me wrong, Dwyer is an animal and I'm glad he's locked up but I do find it disturbing that no questions are being asked of why she was permitted to be care for children in her mental state. Imagine if roles were reversed and O'Hara was a male in these circumstances.

I don't think that is fair.

She was studying childcare, and as I understand it, was doing placement with children. If she had a Garda check, nothing would have shown - because she was not a criminal. The only time her health issues may have been a factor in employment would be perhaps a medical assessment prior to hire. A placement student wont be subject to that. Even then, in my experience, its to see if you are physically fit for the job, not mentally.

Her proclivities are not warped depending on where you are coming from. To many in this country, a BJ /oral sex is fornication and perverted. Others think gays should burn in hell for having sex with the same gender. Still more think that sex outside marriage is filthy, dirty and perverted. If we started banning people who have indulged in anything that anybody thinks is extreme from working in childcare, we'd have very few childcare workers left! I've a child in creche, and genuinely do not give two hoots what their carer does in the privacy of their own home with another adult. You just have to trust that whatever floats an adults boat, is that its done with another consenting adult, in their own homes or wherever and children are not exposed to it.

By all accounts, Elaine did exactly that - kept her private life very private, and if she hadn't gone missing, her tastes would never have been known. Can any poster here say that if they disappeared off the face of the earth today, and Gardai had to forensically examine their phone and laptop, that there is nothing whatsoever that your mammy would be shocked at?

The woman in the other video that was shown to the jury is a high ranking professional well known and well respected in her field. Should she then, resign from her career too? It could be argued that her tastes too, could compromise her career.

threeball

Muff Richardson wrote: »

One aspect of this whole story that has bothered me is throughout the trial there were continuous references to Elaine O'Hara as "childcare worker" like she was some upstanding citizen, no doubt she was a victim but she was also a very sick person with some very unhealthy interests. Was she not Garda vetted for suitability to be around children and care for them? Should somebody who has long-term grave psychological problems be permitted to work with children? Why wasn't anybody asking this or why isn't anybody asking this now? From what I've read it appears that she was really nothing more than a newsagent employee for the most part and that the "childcare worker" label was attached by the media in order to create the upstanding citizen and victim image.

I don't think its fair to argue what she does in her own private life is her own business as her interests stretched far beyond any kind of healthy "kinky sex" type of scenario...she along with Dwyer was twisted. Granted he coerced, manipulated, bullied her...the list goes on but didn't she go of her own accord actively seeking fairly warped sexual activities before meeting him, I mean that site she signed up to by herself isn't exactly tinder. Don't get me wrong, Dwyer is an animal and I'm glad he's locked up but I do find it disturbing that no questions are being asked of why she was permitted to be care for children in her mental state. Imagine if roles were reversed and O'Hara was a male in these circumstances.

Can you not read between the lines? Here was a girl who had issues with mental illness and who would have found it very difficult that would have found a person to have a relationship with. She seems to have drifted towards this life not because it turned her on but because it was how she found companionship.
This sicko came across her, recognised her vulnerability, her potential to self harm, her ability to be manipulated just so she could feel close to someone and he took full advantage. You have to cut the girl some slack here its not as if life dealt her a royal flush and she managed to turn it to crap.

Then you have idiotic journo's on the last word yesterday calling him the most feared killer in the history of the state. The guy is about as scary as a weekend in Alton towers. A manipulative twisted sicko yes, scary I think not.

Laois_Man

Stheno wrote: »

And this is why that woman and her young family have had to relocate

Ya don't know anything about her reasons for relocating!

Muff Richardson

threeball wrote: »

Can you not read between the lines? Here was a girl who had issues with mental illness and who would have found it very difficult that would have found a person to have a relationship with. She seems to have drifted towards this life not because it turned her on but because it was how she found companionship.
This sicko came across her, recognised her vulnerability, her potential to self harm, her ability to be manipulated just so she could feel close to someone and he took full advantage. You have to cut the girl some slack here its not as if life dealt her a royal flush and she managed to turn it to crap.

Then you have idiotic journo's on the last word yesterday calling him the most feared killer in the history of the state. The guy is about as scary as a weekend in Alton towers. A manipulative twisted sicko yes, scary I think not.

The point of my post has very little to do with Dwyer and their relationship, if you can call it that, I agree with everything you say. The point I made has to do with her being a childcare worker and why nobody asked questions or is asking questions about her suitability to it with her longterm mental illness.

Neyite

Muff Richardson wrote: »

The point of my post has very little to do with Dwyer and their relationship, if you can call it that, I agree with everything you say. The point I made has to do with her being a childcare worker and why nobody asked questions or is asking questions about her suitability to it with her longterm mental illness.

Anyone can study what they like though, mental health issues or not.

And anyone can set up as a self employed childcare worker without registering with the HSE, without Garda vetting or obtaining any qualifications whatsoever. Registration and vetting are entirely voluntary. Qualifications are no indicator of aptitude either. The one crèche worker I was forced to make a complaint about, was the most qualified of all the staff there.

DavidRamsay99

Muff Richardson wrote: »

The point of my post has very little to do with Dwyer and their relationship, if you can call it that, I agree with everything you say. The point I made has to do with her being a childcare worker and why nobody asked questions or is asking questions about her suitability to it with her longterm mental illness.

O'Hara hid her BDSM activities and her sexual relationship with Dwyer so how the hell would her employers know about it?

There is no evidence whatsoever that O'Hara ever harmed a child or that she was ever a danger to children if that is what you appear to be implying.

Stop trying to shift the blame from Dwyer and stop the victim blaming.

Why are you doing this for? Do you admire Dwyer or something? Do you think O'Hara deserved what happened to her? What the hell is your problem?

Neyite

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

O'Hara hid her BDSM activities and her sexual relationship with Dwyer so how the hell would her employers know about it?

I'm curious as to what careers are out there that require a persons sex life to be subject to scrutiny by an employer. I genuinely cannot think of any.

Muff Richardson

Neyite wrote: »

I don't think that is fair.

She was studying childcare, and as I understand it, was doing placement with children. If she had a Garda check, nothing would have shown - because she was not a criminal. The only time her health issues may have been a factor in employment would be perhaps a medical assessment prior to hire. A placement student wont be subject to that. Even then, in my experience, its to see if you are physically fit for the job, not mentally.

I think this is a flaw in the vetting system, particularly when the vetting of a particular person is concerned with them caring for children. I understand the difficulties with this due to privacy laws and rights of the individual.

Neyite wrote: »

Her proclivities are not warped depending on where you are coming from. To many in this country, a BJ /oral sex is fornication and perverted. Others think gays should burn in hell for having sex with the same gender. Still more think that sex outside marriage is filthy, dirty and perverted. If we started banning people who have indulged in anything that anybody thinks is extreme from working in childcare, we'd have very few childcare workers left!

I totally agree, I am far from a prude and I believe two people (or more!;)) and whatever they get up to is their business and fair play to them, as long as it is consensual and nobody is being badly harmed whatever floats your boat.

Neyite wrote: »

I've a child in creche, and genuinely do not give two hoots what their carer does in the privacy of their own home with another adult. You just have to trust that whatever floats an adults boat, is that its done with another consenting adult, in their own homes or wherever and children are not exposed to it.

This is where we differ, I wouldn't have wanted Elaine O Hara within a square mile of my child in light of what we have found out about her mental state and history.

Neyite wrote: »

By all accounts, Elaine did exactly that - kept her private life very private, and if she hadn't gone missing, her tastes would never have been known. Can any poster here say that if they disappeared off the face of the earth today, and Gardai had to forensically examine their phone and laptop, that there is nothing whatsoever that your mammy would be shocked at?

The woman in the other video that was shown to the jury is a high ranking professional well known and well respected in her field. Should she then, resign from her career too? It could be argued that her tastes too, could compromise her career.

The crux of my post was related to her mental illness and her being allowed to care for children, let's not focus entirely on her sexual interests.

Muff Richardson

Neyite wrote: »

And anyone can set up as a self employed childcare worker without registering with the HSE, without Garda vetting or obtaining any qualifications whatsoever. Registration and vetting are entirely voluntary.

I didn't know this. I find that shocking.

Tigger

Neyite wrote: »

I'm curious as to what careers are out there that require a persons sex life to be subject to scrutiny by an employer. I genuinely cannot think of any.

Nun
Priest
Prostitute
Spokesperson for the American association of not haveing sex before marriage

DavidRamsay99

Muff Richardson wrote: »

I think this is a flaw in the vetting system, particularly when the vetting of a particular person is concerned with them caring for children. I understand the difficulties with this due to privacy laws and rights of the individual.




I totally agree, I am far from a prude and I believe two people (or more!;)) and whatever they get up to is their business and fair play to them, as long as it is consensual and nobody is being badly harmed whatever floats your boat.




This is where we differ, I wouldn't have wanted Elaine O Hara within a square mile of my child in light of what we have found out about her mental state and history.



The crux of my post was related to her mental illness and her being allowed to care for children, let's not focus entirely on her sexual interests.

Oddly you seem more concerned with the victim's vices than Dwyer.

After following the case and reading what was reported in the press I don't think O'Hara would have ever harmed a child.

You seem to be somehow implying she was deserving of death or her death was less of a crime because of her BDSM activities.

The Dark Side

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

After following the case and reading what was reported in the press I don't think O'Hara would have ever harmed a child.

I wouldn't be fully trusting your reading comprehension abilities though.....

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

You seem to be somehow implying she was deserving of death or her death was less of a crime because of her BDSM activities.

Muff Richardson

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

You seem to be somehow implying she was deserving of death or her death was less of a crime because of her BDSM activities.

You tried writing the same libellous tripe in your previous post and I ignored it, its not worth responding to. I've now ignored you, have a nice life

NachoBusiness

Tayla wrote: »

He told the gardai in his 4th or 5th interview that he met her on alt.com and they had sex but that he wasn't into knife play and wouldn't cut anybody and he said that years ago Elaine had once asked him to kill her, he denied that the phones were his.

Cheers..

In the five (?) or so years that they had been seeing each other did they ever role play other similar scenarios in public places? I mean, was that the first time he ever told her to go somewhere, picked her up and then took her to another location?

Boom_Bap

A reminder of the thread rules

Rules from the outset;

• “Rumours” will not be tolerated. Hearsay, if posted, must come directly from another media source (not someone's blog). A link to that source should be provided. Any other hearsay of the “my brother’s friend said…” variety will be in breach of these rules and actioned accordingly.
• Distasteful comments on the appearance of the victim or her killer, will not be allowed. This was a murder, not a beauty contest.
• Speculation as to the identity of any boards members always has been, and always will be against site rules, that rule will be enforced.
• Discussion of moderation is not allowed. If you have any questions or queries, please PM any of the mods (I recommend including at least two of us in the PM as we may not all be online).
• Please do not feed trolls, report posts that you feel may be trolling and let the mods deal with them.
• Please use common sense, remember that both the victim’s family, and Dwyer’s family, all of whom are entirely innocent, may be reading this. They have enough to deal with without the members of After Hours adding to that.

strandroad

<snip> speculation removed </snip>

The gardai did a stellar job on this, tying all these loose ends together. When I heard that there was no cause of death I thought they would never get a conviction, but they built such a strong case that they did.

stickybookmark

Neyite wrote: »

I don't think that is fair.

She was studying childcare, and as I understand it, was doing placement with children. If she had a Garda check, nothing would have shown - because she was not a criminal. The only time her health issues may have been a factor in employment would be perhaps a medical assessment prior to hire. A placement student wont be subject to that. Even then, in my experience, its to see if you are physically fit for the job, not mentally.

.

No it was definitely more than that. During the part of the trial where they discussed her psychiatric reports/history some of the doctors said that the summers were particularly difficult for her as the school was closed, so she didn't have her daily routine of work and she was inclined to get very down. So she had a regular job at the school. The school obviously haven't been coming out in the media clarifying what that job was as I'd imagine the parents of the kids there wouldn't be too impressed.

Mod

Elaine O'Hara was murdered. She is the victim here. She did nothing to deserve being murdered. Her suitability for her career path is not up for discussion.

Laois_Man

Yeah I think with the benefit of hindsight, Dwyer probably knows now he should have admitted to being there when Elaine died and claimed that she died accidentally and he legged it and told nobody for fear of destroying his marriage.

But that's with the benefit of hindsight. By the time he'd have realized that, it had gone too far and had gone on for too long with his denial of ever being there at all. If he had tried to backtrack, he'd have had no credibility - just as he can't really go down that route now in any appeal.

Mallagio

The more you read about this guy and the case, the more you realize just how lucky the Gardai were in catching his ass.

stickybookmark

Oops sorry only saw the Mod post now, I'm a few pages behind!

superelliptic

Mallagio wrote: »

The more you read about this guy and the case, the more you realize just how lucky the Gardai were in catching his ass.

How lucky for the rest of us in fairness!

Dwarf.Shortage

LadyAthame wrote: »

It's actually not.

What piece of the evidence could not have came about through coincidence? I'm not saying that there wasn't enough evidence to convict him. I'm saying that each individual piece of evidence, taken on it's own, is weak. It is the weight of it all together and how the pieces tie in together that make it so strong. If the defence can get 2 or 3 of those links removed the case is weakened quite a lot because the other pieces will no longer tie in together as convincingly.

akelly02

Anyone know what jail he is serving his time?

DavidRamsay99

Mallagio wrote: »

The more you read about this guy and the case, the more you realize just how lucky the Gardai were in catching his ass.

Who knows how many Dwyer might have killed before and how many he planned to kill in the future? Society is lucky he was caught. O'Hara sadly was not so lucky.

Neyite

akelly02 wrote: »

Anyone know what jail he is serving his time?

Clover hill up until sentencing according to one newspaper but they expect he will be moved to Arbor Hill.

Tordelback

Neyite wrote: »

I'm curious as to what careers are out there that require a persons sex life to be subject to scrutiny by an employer. I genuinely cannot think of any.

School teacher (sleeping with the same gender makes you 'incompatible with a Catholic ethos', don't you know), and while not a paying profession, blood donor.

And is it any wonder, reading the latter part of this thread, that so many of us with mental illness fear seeking treatment. I wonder how many of the judgemental people who consider themselves 'normal' in their mental health, morality and sexuality are people you would want looking after your kids. Isn't that what the history of abuse in this State boils down to?

the_monkey

Yeah Arbor hill I'd imagine, thats the sex offenders institution isn't it ?

Mind you, he'd probably still need to be segragated ..

chicorytip

It's a wonder that the devious so and so never pursued the old "guilty but Insane" ploy.His reportedly "erratic" behaviour in prison may be a deliberate ruse to engineer a transfer to the Central Mental Hospital and, therefore, a more lenient sentence.

Omackeral

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

Stop trying to shift the blame from Dwyer and stop the victim blaming.

Jesus get a grip, he's not trying to shift any blame. He's making an observation as people on discussion sites do. And for Christ sake, this 'victim blaming' phrase is becoming redundant.

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

Why are you doing this for? Do you admire Dwyer or something? Do you think O'Hara deserved what happened to her? What the hell is your problem?

Yeah he admires Dwyer, that's what he said. Cop on.

Tayla

Laois_Man wrote: »

Yeah I think with the benefit of hindsight, Dwyer probably knows now he should have admitted to being there when Elaine died and claimed that she died accidentally and he legged it and told nobody for fear of destroying his marriage.

But that's with the benefit of hindsight. By the time he'd have realized that, it had gone too far and had gone on for too long with his denial of ever being there at all. If he had tried to backtrack, he'd have had no credibility - just as he can't really go down that route now in any appeal.

Up until what point could he have changed his statement or spoke to the gardai again to backtrack? When the book of evidence is served does his defense team have access to everything?

He admitted having sex with her, he denied that the phones were his despite all the evidence linking him to them, when asked how he contacted Elaines iphone he said he couldn't explain because he denied the other phones were his and there was no phone calls from his registered phone to her, he also denied being into knife play and surely he knew that they had found the videos of him stabbing people.

dd972

Most salient point of this case is not being able to judge a book by it's cover, 99.5% of Irish people are quicker than 5G Broadband to dismiss people as 'knackers' or 'quares' because of other people's dress sense, education, demeanor, accent etc, etc, yet this hero of 'middle Ireland' has the face, comportment and lifestyle that the country and it's media jizzes it's pant's about.

realdanbreen

dd972 wrote: »

Most salient point of this case is not being able to judge a book by it's cover, 99.5% of Irish people are quicker than 5G Broadband to dismiss people as 'knackers' or 'quares' because of other people's dress sense, education, demeanor, accent etc, etc, yet this hero of 'middle Ireland' has the face, comportment and lifestyle that the country and it's media jizzes it's pant's about.

Still, 99.5% of those that break into houses, rob handbags, phones etc will have a certian dress sense, accent etc, thats a fact whether it's being discrimanatory or not.

walkingshadow

Looks like the only design advice this architect will be giving in prison is how to spruce up that dismal cell!

Omackeral

walkingshadow wrote: »

Looks like the only design advice this architect will be giving in prison is how to spruce up that dismal cell!

2/10

akelly02

the_monkey wrote: »

Yeah Arbor hill I'd imagine, thats the sex offenders institution isn't it ?

Mind you, he'd probably still need to be segragated ..

Midlands holds many sex offenders also, 2 new wings were built specifically for sex offenders in 2012.

stickybookmark

I thought I read he was destined for Portlaoise

superelliptic

akelly02 wrote: »

Midlands holds many sex offenders also, 2 new wings were built specifically for sex offenders in 2012.

Good to know. I don't mind paying an extra few quid in tax to make sure guys like this never see the light of day again.

strandroad

the_monkey wrote: »

Yeah Arbor hill I'd imagine, thats the sex offenders institution isn't it ?

Mind you, he'd probably still need to be segragated ..

Technically he's not a sex offender though, it was murder.

sadie06

chicorytip wrote: »

It's a wonder that the devious so and so never pursued the old "guilty but Insane" ploy.His reportedly "erratic" behaviour in prison may be a deliberate ruse to engineer a transfer to the Central Mental Hospital and, therefore, a more lenient sentence.

As soon as I read that a 'reliable source' claims he is not coping in prison and mumbling to himself constantly, I thought that it must be an act. He is arrogant enough to think the game is not up yet, and as many others have pointed out it is too late for him to change course and claim he was involved in Elaine's accidental death.

The only ship that hasn't sailed (in his eyes) could be insanity.

JPCN1

sadie06 wrote: »

As soon as I read that a 'reliable source' claims he is not coping in prison and mumbling to himself constantly, I thought that it must be an act. He is arrogant enough to think the game is not up yet, and as many others have pointed out it is too late for him to change course and claim he was involved in Elaine's accidental death.

The only ship that hasn't sailed (in his eyes) could be insanity.

Not a chance. With that much planning and manipulation he's sane but extremely evil.

Laois_Man

Tayla wrote: »

Up until what point could he have changed his statement or spoke to the gardai again to backtrack? When the book of evidence is served does his defense team have access to everything?

He admitted having sex with her, he denied that the phones were his despite all the evidence linking him to them, when asked how he contacted Elaines iphone he said he couldn't explain because he denied the other phones were his and there was no phone calls from his registered phone to her, he also denied being into knife play and surely he knew that they had found the videos of him stabbing people.

But Dwyer still believed. right up to the moment the verdict was read out, that the state hadn't proved its case!

130Kph

If you were GD's workmate would you have realised he was a repulsive deviant? I don't think I would. Most would quickly identify him as obnoxious or arrogant but I doubt he would tell his friends or workmates about his interest in 'knife play', even after a few drinks.

Unless we carried out deep psychological evaluations on everyone and since a policy of eugenics is 'beyond the pale' it unfortunately looks like society decides to accept small (?) numbers of its most vulnerable members being tortured and sadistically murdered by sick, malicious scum like him.

Tarzana2

Mallagio wrote: »

The more you read about this guy and the case, the more you realize just how lucky the Gardai were in catching his ass.

So scary to imagine him still on the streets.

Simon2015

Graham Dwyer makes a very good case for reintroducing the death penalty.

Why waste millions of euro keeping him locked up for the rest of his life ?

A rope would be alot cheaper.

K4t

Simon2015 wrote: »

Graham Dwyer makes a very good case for reintroducing the death penalty
.

No, he doesn't.

Anyone have the links to the stuff he had downloaded on his computer? PM please.