Should I convert?

DK man

I think this lady is struggling for male companionship and hoping to find it by getting involved in a religion / culture that would set it up......

Try a dating agency - Internet forums - going out - joining clubs....

But don't use a sledgehammer to crush a nut....

hamza81

Kalman you are full of contradictions and double standards. You replied to my post saying:

Kalman wrote: »

Take your preaching elsewhere, it's not welcome!

Then in a recent reply to a post you say:

Kalman wrote: »

I disagree! It is free speech, we are not all conformist. The censor is rather overzealous regarding this thread, which leads one to draw their own conclusions as to why>>>he, of course, is faceless !!

So am I not entitled to free speech?

hamza81

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Why on earth would you want to convert to islam? No offense but the harsh reality of it is if you choose to go down this road expect to lose a lot of friends. Have you told your friends and family? What to they think about it? Have you considered how it will affect them?

Again I'm not trying to be offensive here OP but imho if I, a Tipperary fella 28m, were to tell my gf, family and friends that I was seriously considering converting to Islam I'd be laughed out of the room, told to get off the stage and to cop myself on! And I can imagine how awkward it would make things for my family having to explain to family friends that I'd joined the circus. I can imagine how that would go:

Family friend: Oh and be jaypers how's John'een keeping these days? Where's he at it now? Tis a long way he's come from stacking bales as a young lad!
CB's mammy: Ah well, hehe, you see he went and converted to Islam you see.
Family friend:...........Oh! Right!...........Riiiight..............Jaysus, tis fierce weather out isn't it?


It is also somewhat selfish of you. You are going to make life unnecessarily difficult for your child by becoming a muslim, why would you want to do that? You're also singling yourself out in a big way. You're abandoning your normal native culture and trying to get into Islamic culture. Now you don't fully belong to either of them - that will be stressful and hard on you.

All these things you say you want are nothing to do with religion, you can achieve those by just getting your act together and doing them.

Sorry if I sound like I'm having a go at you OP but, quite frankly, I think it is a ridiculous proposition for a born and bred Irish person to convert to Islam. I'd urge you to reconsider what is the most sensible and responsible thing to do here.

And to the person who said you can't back out of Islam - why not? Unlike many Islamic countries, it's actually a free country here. You don't like, you just back out, stop going and get on with your life. If clerics or other members give you grief you go file a complaint of harassment with the Gardai.

Apologies for my tone, but I honestly think this is just plain and utter ludicrous.

A true friend would always be supportive of whatever decision one makes. If that "friend" chooses not to be my "friend" anymore due to changing my way of life then that is not a true friend at all.

Regarding family then it will come as a shock at first but eventually family do come around. I know many converts whose family's are very supportive of their conversion.

It is not selfish at all. She is choosing to go with her inclinations for she is being guided to the straight path and I hope she will also guide her child towards the same path.

You talk about "native" culture. Apart from drinking alcohol then what other "native" culture goes against Islamic principles?

She feels an inclination to the truth and that is something you will never understand unless you look into the Qur'an for yourself.

Spirogyra

hamza81 wrote: »

A true friend would always be supportive of whatever decision one makes. If that "friend" chooses not to be my "friend" anymore due to changing my way of life then that is not a true friend at all.

Regarding family then it will come as a shock at first but eventually family do come around. I know many converts whose family's are very supportive of their conversion.

It is not selfish at all. She is choosing to go with her inclinations for she is being guided to the straight path and I hope she will also guide her child towards the same path.

You talk about "native" culture. Apart from drinking alcohol then what other "native" culture goes against Islamic principles?

Native culture Hamza has a lot more to do with Bacon and Alcohol, it has to do with tolerance, with acceptance of people as they are, without attempt to control or punish them for that....

She feels an inclination to the truth and that is something you will never understand unless you look into the Qur'an for yourself.

So called " native culture" might include a recent understanding of and compassion towards homosexual and transgender/intersex identities,viewing them as equal to all others, that such people have the right to be themselves without fear of harassment or punishment. While lgbtq Muslim groups do exist they are frowned upon by all main Islamic schools of thought, such people are imprisioned, flogged and executed in 'Islamic States', that is all Sharia offers, no attempt to understand, or offer compassion... Also amputations for thieves, again with no attempt to understand the reasons for such, such as poverty or social disadvantage.

Islam is based on the word of a 7th century Arab,who believed God spoke to him, we know so much more now than then, but as alluded to elsewhere, questioning Islam in most majority Muslim countries is taboo and they have thus failed to evolve socially or economically.

Why is Islam, with it's conquest and intolerance more attractive than secular humanism, which accepts people as they are and has been responsible for no wars?

Native culture Hamza is about a lot more than bacon and alcohol, it is to with tolerance and acceptance of people as they are, without a need to change or punish them...

hamza81

Spirogyra wrote: »

So called " native culture" might include a recent understanding of and compassion towards homosexual and transgender/intersex identities,viewing them as equal to all others, that such people have the right to be themselves without fear of harassment or punishment. While lgbtq Muslim groups do exist they are frowned upon by all main Islamic schools of thought, such people are imprisioned, flogged and executed in 'Islamic States', that is all Sharia offers, no attempt to understand, or offer compassion... Also amputations for thieves, again with no attempt to understand the reasons for such, such as poverty or social disadvantage.

Islam is based on the word of a 7th century Arab,who believed God spoke to him, we know so much more now than then, but as alluded to elsewhere, questioning Islam in most majority Muslim countries is taboo and they have thus failed to evolve socially or economically.

Why is Islam, with it's conquest and intolerance more attractive than secular humanism, which accepts people as they are and has been responsible for no wars?

Native culture Hamza is about a lot more than bacon and alcohol, it is to with tolerance and acceptance of people as they are, without a need to change or punish them...

You say "so called native culture" which shows me there is no clear definition of a "native" culture. Therefore you are just making it up as you go along.

With regards to what you mention about " understanding of and compassion towards homosexual and transgender/intersex identities" then that does not conform with the beliefs of those who are catholic and protestant because such a belief is contrary to catholic and protestant teachings.

Try again...

Spirogyra

hamza81 wrote: »

You say "so called native culture" which shows me there is no clear definition of a "native" culture. Therefore you are just making it up as you go along.

With regards to what you mention about " understanding of and compassion towards homosexual and transgender/intersex identities" then that does not conform with the beliefs of those who are catholic and protestant because such a belief is contrary to catholic and protestant teachings.

Try again...

??? what's all this got to do with Catholic and Protestant?

Of course I'm making things up as I go along, as the conversation evolves, aren't you? aren't we all?

deaddonkey15

hamza81 wrote: »

You say "so called native culture" which shows me there is no clear definition of a "native" culture. Therefore you are just making it up as you go along.

With regards to what you mention about " understanding of and compassion towards homosexual and transgender/intersex identities" then that does not conform with the beliefs of those who are catholic and protestant because such a belief is contrary to catholic and protestant teachings.

Try again...

There is of course a clear definition of native culture. What Spirogyra said wasn't made up.

Whilst catholicism and protestantism doesn't agree with homosexuality, they are far more accepting and understanding of it than islam. Despite being a predominantly catholic country, we still have the freedom to choose whatever religion we wish, or choose not to believe in any of that nonsense at all and not fear persecution over it. We have the freedom to hold democratic referenda on topics such as marriage equality, where everyone over voting age has an equal right to vote without fear of persecution. These aren't exactly aligned with your islamic principles.

Tom Dunne

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

There is of course a clear definition of native culture. What Spirogyra said wasn't made up.

Whilst catholicism and protestantism doesn't agree with homosexuality, they are far more accepting and understanding of it than islam. Despite being a predominantly catholic country, we still have the freedom to choose whatever religion we wish, or choose not to believe in any of that nonsense at all and not fear persecution over it. We have the freedom to hold democratic referenda on topics such as marriage equality, where everyone over voting age has an equal right to vote without fear of persecution. These aren't exactly aligned with your islamic principles.

Are you sure that is the case? Could you say that of Ireland 30 years ago?

Is it a case that the religion has become more tolerant, or Irish society has become more secular and as a consequence more tolerant? In other words, are you comparing like with like - Irish society with Islam the religion? I would argue it's an apples vs. oranges comparison.

deaddonkey15

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Are you sure that is the case? Could you say that of Ireland 30 years ago?

Is it a case that the religion has become more tolerant, or Irish society has become more secular and as a consequence more tolerant? In other words, are you comparing like with like - Irish society with Islam the religion? I would argue it's an apples vs. oranges comparison.

A combination of both. Unlike Islam, Irish society is open minded and progressive. We had priests voting yes in the recent referendum. Imagine that in an islamic country. And yes Ireland is thankfully becoming more secular. Religion and society are unfortunately interlinked. Do you think a predominantly islamic society like islamic state would allow all citizens to have an equal vote on whether two gay people should be allowed to get married?

Tom Dunne

So what you are saying is that a religion and a society are the same?

Do you accept that you are not comparing like with like?

Sobko

A true friend tells you when you are making a bad decision for the wrong reasons. If you knew of a woman about to get married to an abussive man would you not try to dissuade her? Even if it meant losing that friendship. It's my view a good friend is prepared to lose the friendship for the right reasons.

hamza81 wrote: »

A true friend would always be supportive of whatever decision one makes. If that "friend" chooses not to be my "friend" anymore due to changing my way of life then that is not a true friend at all.

Regarding family then it will come as a shock at first but eventually family do come around. I know many converts whose family's are very supportive of their conversion.

It is not selfish at all. She is choosing to go with her inclinations for she is being guided to the straight path and I hope she will also guide her child towards the same path.

You talk about "native" culture. Apart from drinking alcohol then what other "native" culture goes against Islamic principles?

She feels an inclination to the truth and that is something you will never understand unless you look into the Qur'an for yourself.

Spirogyra

Civil Liberties have been hard won, universal suffrage ,employment and basic social rights for women, (never forget the infamous 'Laundries' which the state colluded in) Lesbian , Gay, Bisexual Transgender and Intersex rights, the struggle for greater access to abortion goes on, the freedom to question and be questioned, these rights are all quite recently acquired.

My fear is that Islam, if it had a greater prescence in this country, would seek to subvert these rights, to row back on these hard won freedoms, that this country would become less tolerant. I am treating 'Islam' as a single entity because it appears again that Muslims are not allowed to question their faith and are therefore closed to new sources of knowledge and new perspectives...critical thinking is censored in Islamic societies and that scares me and I'm sure a lot of people...

I obviously then don't think conversion/reversion is a good idea.

'Liberal Democracy' cannot promise an afterlife, a reward in the hereafter, but I believe that one can follow one's own moral compass, we all have one, and don't need a priest or an Imann or a Rabbi to guide us, be open to the world around you and new idea's, follow what your interested in for structure and be nice to people whenever possible, it will 'come back to you' and your life will in most cases be ok and hopefully fulfilling, without the stunting impact of 'organised religion'

Tom Dunne

Spirogyra wrote: »

My fear is that Islam, if it had a greater prescence in this country, would seek to subvert these rights, to row back on these hard won freedoms, that this country would become less tolerant. I am treating 'Islam' as a single entity because it appears again that Muslims are not allowed to question their faith and are therefore closed to new sources of knowledge and new perspectives...critical thinking is censored in Islamic societies and that scares me and I'm sure a lot of people...

Your fears about Islam are irrelevant to this thread. Please get back on topic.

Spirogyra

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Your fears about Islam are irrelevant to this thread. Please get back on topic.

The idea of the creator of this universe speaking to a 7th century Arab doesn't make the least sense to me..... that is reason not to convert.....

hamza81

Spirogyra wrote: »

??? what's all this got to do with Catholic and Protestant?

Of course I'm making things up as I go along, as the conversation evolves, aren't you? aren't we all?

Is Christianity in terms of the denominations of Catholicism and Protestant not the main religion of Ireland?

Let us see what Christianity's take is on homosexuality:

Leviticus 20:13: (NIV)

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Sounds very tolerant to me.

hamza81

Spirogyra wrote: »

The idea of the creator of this universe speaking to a 7th century Arab doesn't make the least sense to me..... that is reason not to convert.....

The creator of the Universe didn't speak to any 7th century Arab. Shows how much you know about Islam.

hamza81

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

There is of course a clear definition of native culture.

Then what is it?

hamza81

Sobko wrote: »

A true friend tells you when you are making a bad decision for the wrong reasons. If you knew of a woman about to get married to an abussive man would you not try to dissuade her? Even if it meant losing that friendship. It's my view a good friend is prepared to lose the friendship for the right reasons.

A true friend accepts when their friend has made a decision that they have thought long and hard about.

What has the analogy of an "abusive man" got to do with conversion to Islam?

It doesn't seem like you value friendship very much. A true friend will never abandon their friend just because of their own assumptions about a particular belief. If they do then they were never true friends in the first place.

Sobko

hamza81 wrote: »

A true friend accepts when their friend has made a decision that they have thought long and hard about.

What has the analogy of an "abusive man" got to do with conversion to Islam?

It doesn't seem like you value friendship very much. A true friend will never abandon their friend just because of their own assumptions about a particular belief. If they do then they were never true friends in the first place.

Not necessarily as the decision could be an illegal act. Context is everything.

The analogy is not a reflection on Islam it's quite clear what was meant by it. It seems that you would accept a friend marrying an abusive partner if they have thought long and hard about it and that is your prerogative. I wouldn't support a similar decision.

The friend who has chosen to go down the path that they know is a bad decision and has ignored your good advise has in fact abandoned you.

hamza81

Sobko wrote: »

Not necessarily as the decision could be an illegal act. Context is everything.

The analogy is not a reflection on Islam it's quite clear what was meant by it. It seems that you would accept a friend marrying an abusive partner if they have thought long and hard about it and that is your prerogative. I wouldn't support a similar decision.

The friend who has chosen to go down the path that they know is a bad decision and has ignored your good advise has in fact abandoned you.

Can we get on topic? We are talking about the context of the Op's post. We are not talking about "abusive partners" or "illegals acts".

The fact is the OP has made an important decision and anyone who does not support her in such a decision was never a true friend in the first place.

Tom Dunne

hamza81 wrote: »

Can we get on topic? We are talking about the context of the Op's post.

Just a reminder who the moderator is here and who gets to ask everyone to get back on topic.

So with that in mind, back on topic. This is not a "I hate Islam and here's why" thread, so please keep your posts relevant and on topic.

Spirogyra

hamza81 wrote: »

The creator of the Universe didn't speak to any 7th century Arab. Shows how much you know about Islam.

Mohammad (peace be upon him) lived in Saudi Arabia between 570 and 632, that make's him a 6/7th century Arab in my eyes. Allah you believe is God, and Islam believes that God created the earth and every other planet? I don't believe it is plausable that such an entity spoke to Mohammad and therefore Islam is untrue, therefore conversion would not be a good thing...it may provide structure, but that doesn't make it true.

As for quotes of the bible, don't you realise that in Ireland that Church and State are separate? therefore your quoting of the equally homophobic bible are irrelevant, Ireland is not governed according to Christian Doctrine...

hamza81

Spirogyra wrote: »

Mohammad (peace be upon him) lived in Saudi Arabia between 570 and 632, that make's him a 6/7th century Arab in my eyes. Allah you believe is God, and Islam believes that God created the earth and every other planet? I don't believe it is plausable that such an entity spoke to Mohammad and therefore Islam is untrue, therefore conversion would not be a good thing...it may provide structure, but that doesn't make it true.

As for quotes of the bible, don't you realise that in Ireland that Church and State are separate? therefore your quoting of the equally homophobic bible are irrelevant, Ireland is not governed according to Christian Doctrine...

I don't believe this thread has anything to do with your misconceptions of Islam.

However just to clarify God did not speak to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) directly for he put his message through the arch Angel Gabriel and the final revelation was revealed to him over a period of 23 years.

Here is a link for you to see how an illiterate man in the middle of a desert came up with a book of absolute literal mastery:

http://quran.com/

It could be from none other than God himself.

endacl

hamza81 wrote: »

It could be from none other than God himself.

Or from some other medieval dude who could write?

First person to read it: Come on Mohammed... Did you really write this?
Mo': Yeah. Course I did. Ahmed had nothing to do with it. Swear.
First person: I'll just go ask Ahmed...
Mo': Fire away. I think he went that way. (Knowing he went the other way)

Et voila. A religion is born.

Spirogyra

Wasn't the early Quaran 'composed' orally, and not written down until well after the death of Mohammad (pbuh) ? .

hamza81

Spirogyra wrote: »

Wasn't the early Quaran 'composed' orally, and not written down until well after the death of Mohammad (pbuh) ? .

Each time the Prophet (PBUH) received revelation he repeated it back to his companions who both memorised it and wrote it down on various objects as it was not the tradition at the time to compile books.

After his death many companions started dying from wars, old age illness etc.. and so there was a fear that the Qur'an would be lost so the companions who memorised it and those who wrote it down got together and compiled it into the form of a book called the Qur'an. The companions who memorised it repeated it to each other again and again and referred back to where it was written down to ensure that the exact words were written down as they were revealed. Read in more detail here:

[SIZE=+2]Who Wrote the Holy Quran?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Quran, in Arabic, could only have been written by ONE of 3 possible sources:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1] 1. the Arabs[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 2. Mohammad (peace be upon him)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 3. God (Allah)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1](NOTE: The first part is not meant to be a rigorous proof. It is something to ponder upon. However, the second part, about Mohammad [pbuh] wrote it' contains more extensive proof.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Besides the above mentioned sources, Quran couldn't possibly have been written by ANYONE else.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]No other source is possible, because Quran is written in pure, rich, and poetic Arabic, which was not known to anyone other than the above mentioned sources, at that time. The Arabic language was at its peak in expression, richness, vocabulary, artistic, and poetic value during the time the Quran was being revealed. Anyone speaking the classical Arabic ( the Arabic of Quran at the time it was revealed) would argue that a non-Arab entity couldn't possibly have written such an extensive and brilliant piece of literature in the Arabic language. Quran could only have been written by an Arabic speaking entity. An entity, who's knowledge, style, vocabulary, grammar, and way of expression was so powerful that it impacted the entire Arabian peninsula, the east, the west, and continues to impact people all over the globe today![/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]At no other time, in the history of Arabic language, had it ever achieved its peak in expression, literature, and development, than the time of Arabia during the 6th Century, the time when Quran was being revealed. At no other time in the history of Arabic language had the language ever achieved its highest potential than the time of Arabia during the 6th Century, the time when Quran was being revealed. The language reached its peak in richness, artistic value, and poetry, during that time. With the Arabic language at its peak, and the best of Arabic writers, poets present in Arabia, it is impossible that a non-Arabic speaking entity would write a book like Quran and have such a dynamite impact on the Arabs![/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]So only an Arabic speaking entity could have write Quran. With that in mind, we're left with three choices:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1] 1 - the Arabs wrote it[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 2 - Mohammad (pbuh) wrote it[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 3 - Allah (swt) wrote it[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Lets examine the three choces one by one.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1](1) Arabs Wrote it?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]What Quran teaches goes DIRECTLY against the pagan Arab culture, religion, and gods, that existed before the Quran was revealed. Quran condemns idol worshipping, but the Arabs, loved their idol gods, and worshipped them regularly. Quran raised the status of women; the Arabs treated women next to animals. The Arabs would never write something that goes against their most important belief of idol worshipping. Quran goes against most of the social habbits (such as backbiting, slandering, name calling, etc) which the Arabs were heavily indulged into. For example, the Arabs would call insulting nicknames such as Abu Jahal (the father of ignorance). Quran condemns and prohibits taking interest on money, whereas, the Arabs freely levied heavy interest rates in loans and businesses. Quran condemns and prohibits Alcohol drinking, whereas, the Arabs consumed alcohol freely. The Quran condemns and prohibits gambling, whereas, the Arabs were some of the worst gamblers. The Arabs would never write something so comprehensively against just about all of their customs and culture and religious beliefs, as the Quran is.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]During the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), the Arabs would indulge in all the social habbits that the Quran condemns and prohibits. How can Arabs then write something that would negate their entire society's norms and ideologies?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Did a group of Arabs or an individual Arab write Quran? Perhaps a rebel Arab beduoin, or a society's misfit, or someone with different ideals and norms decided one day to write Quran? The answer to those questions are also 'no'. Because, if we read Quran, we notice that there is no author! No individual has his/her name written on the cover of Quran! Anytime an individual writes a book, he/she writes his/her name on the cover. The author's name always appears on his/her book, and there is always an author who is credited for writing that book. No one in the history of the world has EVER claimed to have written the Quran, nor anyone's name ever appeared in front of the Quran as bein the 'author'. This is the only book in the world without an author. No one in the world has ever been accused of writing the Holy Quran, except the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him), by non-muslims.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Quran has no author, and no group or individual in Arabia ever claimed to have written it, nor any group or an indvidual recited, taught, and explained Quran except the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and his followers. The Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was the only Arabian who first practiced, explained, and preached Quran, and ended up making a lot of Arab tribes enemies. Any historian, Muslim or non-Muslim would argue that the only possible source of Quran can be the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), the man responsible to recite it, teach it, and expalin it to the people of Arabia. In fact, many historians today still think that only Mohammad (pbuh) could possibly have written it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]This leads one to conclude that the Prophet (pbuh) must have written it![/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1](2) Mohammad (pbuh) wrote it?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]First, he was illiterate !! How can an illiterate person come up with such a rich, poetic, intellectual, and inspiring text that it rocked the entire Arabia?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Mohammad (pbuh) never went to school! No one taught him. He had no teacher of any kind in any subjects. How can he have the knowledge of all the science, astronomy, oceanography, etc that is contained in the Quran? (For example, the mention of ocean currents, stars, earth, moon, sun and their fixed paths in Soorah Rahman; and many other scientific statements that are found in Quran, that I cannot state in this short article)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]When Quran was revealed, the Arabic language was at its peak in richness, poetic value, literature, etc. Quran came and challenged the best literature in Arabic, the best poetry in Arabic of the time. Mohammad (pbuh) being illiterate couldnt possibly have come up with something so immaculate that it even exceded the best of poetry, and literature in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development. Arabic language had never been so rich in expression, poetic value, vocabulary, and variety in literature, as it was in the time of Quran. At a time like this, Quran came and exceeded the best of Arabic in all aspects of the language: poetry, literature, expression, etc. Any classical Arabic speaker would appreciate the unbeatten, unchallenged, and unmatched beauty of the language of Quran.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]An illiterate man is simply not capable of writing such a book.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Mohammad (pbuh) had no reason to come up with something like Quran, and cause the entire society of Arabia to become his enemy. Why would he do something like that? Why would he write something going against almost all of the norms of the society, and lose his family, relatives, friends, and other loved ones, and not to mention all the wealth he lost[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years! A very long time! Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Quran, for over 23 years?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Also, what the prophet Mohammad (saaw) used to say is recorded in what we call his hadeeth (sunnah). If we look at the Arabic style of the hadeeth, and compare it with the style of Quran, we can clearly see that they are clearly DIFFERENT, and DISTINGUISHABLE Arabic styles. The prophet (saaw) spoke in public. It does not make sense that a man has two UNIQUE, Distinguishable, and completely different styles of speech in public. Yet another reason why Mohammad (saaw) couldn't possibly have written Quran.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years ! A very long time! Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Quran over 23 years?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Here's what our famous Muslim Scholar, Ahmad Deedat said:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]WAS QURAN WRITTEN OR INSPIRED?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you - Chosen you above the women of all nations." Qur'an-3:42[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]THE SOURCE OF HIS MESSAGE[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"Chosen you above the women of all nations." Such an honour is not to be found given to Mary even in the Christian Bible![/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Knowing full-well, and believing as we do, that the whole Quran is the veritable Word of God, we will nevertheless agree, for the sake of argument, with the enemies of Muhammed (pbuh) for a moment, that he wrote it. We can now expect some cooperation from the unbeliever.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Ask him, "Have you any qualms in agreeing that Muhammed (pbuh) was an Arab?" Only an opinionated fool will hesitate to agree. In that case there is no sense in pursuing any discussion. Cut short the talk. Close the book![/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]With the man of reason, we proceed. "That this Arab, in the first instance, was addressing other Arabs. He was not talking to Indian Muslims, Chinese Muslims, or Nigerian Muslims. He was addressing his own people - the Arabs. Whether they agreed with him or not, he told them in the most sublime form - words that were seared into the hearts and minds of his listeners that Mary the mother of Jesus -A JEWESS- was chosen above the women of all nations. Not his own mother, nor his wife nor his daughter, nor any other Arab woman, but a Jewess! Can one explain this? Because to everyone his own mother or wife, or daughter would come before other women.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Why would the Prophet of Islam honour a woman from his opposition! and a Jewess at that! belonging to a race which had been looking down upon his people for three thousand years? Just as they still look down upon their Arab brethren today.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]SARAH AND HAGAR[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The Jews get their cock-eyed racism from their Holy Bible, where they are told their father, Abraham, had two wives -Sarah and Hagar. They say that they are the children of Abraham through Sarah, his legitimate wife; that their Arab brethren have descended through Hagar, a "bondwoman", and that as such, the Arabs are inferior breed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Will anyone please explain the anomaly as to why Muhammed (pbuh) (if he is the author) chose this Jewess for such honour? The answer is simple - HE HAD NO CHOICE - he had no right to speak of his own desire. "IT IS NO LESS THAN AN INSPIRATION SENT DOWN TO HIM." (Qur'an, 53:4).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]SURA MARYAM[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]There is a Chapter in the Holy Quran, named Sura Maryam "Chapter Mary" (XIX) named in honour of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (pbuh); again, such an honour is not to be found given to Mary in the Christian Bible. Out of the 66 books of the Protestants and 73 of the Roman Catholics, not one is named after Mary or her son. You will find books named after Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul and two score more obscure names, but not a single one is that of Jesus or Mary![/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]If Muhammed (pbuh) was the author of the Holy Quran, then he would not have failed to include in it with MARYAM, the mother of Jesus, his own mother - AMINA, his dear wife - KHADIJA, or his beloved daughter - FATIMA. But No! No! this can never be. The Quran is not his handiwork![/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Another Muslim writes:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]From: Abu Abdullah;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Subject: Re: Mohammad Wrote the Quran? [KORAN][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 12:44:14 EDT[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]I was reading about the charge that the prophet, Mohammed (pbuh), has written the Quran himself. Before you go any further in reading this post, please ask yourself whether you are a honest truth seeker or just another argumentative person, if the former, continue, otherwise, save your time and jump to the next post.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Islam is based on faith that is supported by a number of strong miracles such as knowing what events to take place ahead of time or coming up with supernatural deeds in front of people. The holy Quran has these signs and much more. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]First, The holy Quran predicted many events to take place ahead of the time of the revelation of that verse; for example, predicting the destruction of Persian empire at a time where the later had a monumental victory over Rome. If the prophet, as some people claim, has written the Quran, then he would have put his future in real jeopardy (50% chance) since neither satellite photos nor on-ground intelligence personnel were available to him at the revelation time. Further, numerous details about many natural phenomena were detailed in the Quran and, until recently, they were proven by experts to be amazingly accurate. For example of the physical development of the fetus inside the womb along with timing given by many verses matches exactly what leading authorities in Embryology are claiming to be recent discoveries. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Moreover, verses that gives descriptions about the creation of the universe and the function of mountains in balancing earth and many other descriptions/explanations are available to be read and to be understood. If the prophet was the author, wouldn't he be prone to make weak inferences similar to those who claim that earth is square and whoever says otherwise should be killed?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The prophet also has demonstrated many supernatural miracles not by his own power, but by the power of the creator. He went to Jerasalem back in one night and gave a detailed description of the carnival that was traveling on that route and also specific accedint happend to them at that noght (in those days, it takes a month or so for a round-trip). In another ocasion, he provided water for an entire army from a small plate between his hands. There are many other miracles that require serious truth seeker to read about and to think about it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]From the above, it reasonable to conclude that the Quran is not the PROPHET CREATION. HE HAD NO WAY TO PREDICT ALL THESE EVENTS AND TO BE RIGHT ALL THE TIME, ESPECIALLY WHEN KNOWING THAT THE PROPHET HIMSELF WAS ILLITERATE![/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Embryology and Life Sciences in Quran[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"The Developing Human. Clinically Oriented Embryology"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Keith L. Moore[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]5th Edition, Philadelphia, W.B. Saunders Co. (1982)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]ISBN 07216 4662-X $33.95[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]The work by Prof. Keith Moore is probably the most detailed study of the subject. Prof. Keith Moore is Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]His books on anatomy and on embryology are used at many medical school as standard instruction books. The Yale Medical school uses both his books. The Yale Bookstore phone number for Medical books is: (203) 772-2081. Their general information number is (203) 432-4771. (New Haven, Connecticut)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]He is *the* authority on embryology. I strongly recommend the latest edition of the latter book as it mentions how accurately the Qur'an describes embryo development.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Prof. Moore has said: "It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammed from God or Allah because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Mohammed must have been a messenger of God or Allah."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Prof. Marshal Johnson, Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]He says: "The Qur'an describes not only the development of external form but emphasizes also the internal stages -- the stages inside the embryo of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science.... If I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I know today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described. I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Mohammed had to be developing this information from some place, so I see nothing in conflict with the concept that Divine Intervention was involved..."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]That leaves us to our third option: [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]God wrote it![/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]May Allah Guide Us All to Straight Path. Ameen.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]QURAN: Chapter 4, Verse 82: "Do they not consider (ponder) on the Quran? If it had been from anyone except Allah, they would surely have found in it much discrepency (contradictions)."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Still unsure or doubtful? Quran is the word of Allah. Allah challenges to His creations:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Chapter 2, Verses 23 & 24: "And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to our servant, Then produce a Chapter like thereunto; And call your witnesses or helpers besides Allah, If you are true. But if you cannot, and surely you cannot, Then fear the fire Whose fuel is men and stones, Which is prepared for those who reject."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Try reading and understanding the meaning with explanation of the following verses also! Chapter 10, verse 38 Chapter 11, verse 13 Chapter 17 verse 88[/SIZE]

Source: http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/quran_who_wrote.htm

anothernight

hamza81 wrote: »

The Jews get their cock-eyed racism from their Holy Bible, where they are told their father, Abraham, had two wives -Sarah and Hagar. They say that they are the children of Abraham through Sarah, his legitimate wife; that their Arab brethren have descended through Hagar, a "bondwoman", and that as such, the Arabs are inferior breed.

I'm very sorry for going off-topic here, but do you realise how intolerant the bit in bold is? You're essentially agreeing with the assertion that all jewish people are racist. If all muslims were that intolerant, I would hope that the OP considers other avenues before she jumps straight into Islam. =/

Thankfully most muslims aren't intolerant like that.

EDIT: Ok, having looked at the website you got that text from... Jesus Christ, it's... not very nice, is it?
It's got an article called "Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization", and it seems to have a real beef with 'Western culture'. Some bits from the website:
"The first purpose of our education system must be to produce qualified citizens and leaders for the Islamic society."
"It is time to question if our beloved nation would prefer to choose the ruinous track or we will raise barriers against the flow of the Western culture."
:rolleyes:

jobbridge4life

I hope the OP reads the mini-thesis on who wrote a book of fantasy over a millennial ago and realizes that there might be a better way to find meaning, purpose and belonging in life. I can think of few better indictments of capital R religions.

fed up sick and tired

hamza81 wrote: »

Is Christianity in terms of the denominations of Catholicism and Protestant not the main religion of Ireland?

Let us see what Christianity's take is on homosexuality:

Leviticus 20:13: (NIV)

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Sounds very tolerant to me.

Were I to advocate for or against Christianity, I would not start with the Old Testament as you have done.

I would certainly not purport to represent Christianity's take on homosexuality by referencing one single line from the Old Testament, as you have done.

jobbridge4life

fed up sick and tired wrote: »

Were I to advocate for or against Christianity, I would not start with the Old Testament as you have done.

I would certainly not purport to represent Christianity's take on homosexuality by referencing one single line from the Old Testament, as you have done.

If you were doing so with regard to Islam would you cite the international force now flinging alleged gay people from roofs? Or the Saudi Kingdom and reward it with whipping, stoning or banishment? Or the enlightened Iranians and hang them if they didn't agree to cut off their genitals and masquerade as the opposite sex?