Impossible task?

Atola

Hi everyone,

I have been doing some training at home for a few months and as I have a slim frame ive been trying to bulk up shoulders and arms. Ive only recently realised that my goals are in opposition to each other as im also trying for a bit of a 6 pack with weighted incline situps and some cardio.

Ive read that its better to bulk up everything for the protein and then cut to reveal the abs, although this will result in reduced muscle size too. Does anyone have any experience of how possible to just eat clean and produce nice abs at 11st 7?

Should I be cutting calories while doing weight training and concentrating on muscle building foods?

MightyMandarin

Do you want to be bigger or do you want to be leaner? ask yourself that question looking at your physique right now.

If you want to be big and lean, you're better off forgetting about the 6pack for the moment and just go on a bulk, gain some decent size and strength, and then cut slowly when you feel fat.

Maintaining a 6pack year round is unnecessary imo and you'll make minimal progress that way.

Atola

Im trying to do both and its killing me! Im counting calories, eating lots of protein while doing cardio and weights. Am I wasting my time with this? I have seen an improvement but now i feel im at a plateau.

LuckyLloyd

Barring the use of banned substances or a perfect application of nutritional protocols, it's virtually impossible to continue losing weight and building muscle once you've established some training history. A beginner just needs to turn up and lift while eating at a deficit and can achieve both for a period, but at a certain point most people can't achieve both.

MightyMandarin

Atola wrote: »

Im trying to do both and its killing me! Im counting calories, eating lots of protein while doing cardio and weights. Am I wasting my time with this? I have seen an improvement but now i feel im at a plateau.

Whilst it's possible to eat at a maintenance and build muscle while getting leaner, it's more optimal to divide that time between bulking and cutting, hence bulking and cutting is a staple for bodybuilders because it's the most efficient way to gain size but also get leaner.

I'd say do a lean bulk with a surplus of like 300cals a day and try to gain weight slowly while minimising fat gains, and stick with this for at least 6 months. Just focus on slow weight gain while getting stronger over time and you'll make progress.

Atola

Thanks for your advice, I think I was under eating and with muscle soreness it wasn't making a happy atola. I just thought I cant go on like this, im wrecked every day.

Thanks again

MightyMandarin

Atola wrote: »

Thanks for your advice, I think I was under eating and with muscle soreness it wasn't making a happy atola. I just thought I cant go on like this, im wrecked every day.

Thanks again

Yeah you really shouldn't be putting your body under such stress like that. Lifting weights and going to the gym is more of a lifestyle rather than something you should force yourself through. By all means, watching your diet is important but you have to make slow, gradual changes rather than forcing yourself into crazy diets and feeling like ****. Anyone who has a big, lean physique has been doing this for years and doesn't put their body through a tortuous process which makes them feel terrible; they make some changes to their eating habits and learn to build their lifestyle from there.

Atola

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Yeah you really shouldn't be putting your body under such stress like that. Lifting weights and going to the gym is more of a lifestyle rather than something you should force yourself through. By all means, watching your diet is important but you have to make slow, gradual changes rather than forcing yourself into crazy diets and feeling like ****. Anyone who has a big, lean physique has been doing this for years and doesn't put their body through a tortuous process which makes them feel terrible; they make some changes to their eating habits and learn to build their lifestyle from there.

Agree totally. Ive been doing this since jan and notice im not really getting any further now, in fact I think im going backwards! Trying to train every day bar one a week and eat clean.

Some people told me that if I ate protein rich foods and lowered carbs and sugar I could achieve more built muscle with a lower body fat percentage at the same time. Im not so sure this is true now for a beginner.

MightyMandarin

Atola wrote: »

Agree totally. Ive been doing this since jan and notice im not really getting any further now, in fact I think im going backwards! Trying to train every day bar one a week and eat clean.

Some people told me that if I ate protein rich foods and lowered carbs and sugar I could achieve more built muscle with a lower body fat percentage at the same time. Im not so sure this is true now for a beginner.

While beginners can prove to be exceptions to a lot of rules, it's impossible to gain muscle while losing weight. Going to the gym 6 days a week is also quite excessive; you can make great gains training 3-4 days a week.

Just set a goal weight eg 10kg gain, take it slowly, and just reassess yourself once a week. If you've gained nothing, up the calories, if you've gained too much and are starting to get a bit fat, lower the calories a bit. It's fine to make little alterations like that, once you give yourself at least 6-9 months to gain about 10kg or so. You'll gain some fat along the way, but this can be lost easily with a small cut, and if you're a beginner, most of the weight will be muscle.

Useful.Idiot

what is your workout routine like for the week?

Atola

No not going to the gym.Im just doing free weights at home for an hour or so and have a pull up bar, weights bench/incline bench, do running or half hour mixture of cardio/ squats/ lunges etc.

Ive always been thin and never had much weight on. My forte was speed over strength. I cant seem to put on weight at the best of times but I put that down to my crap old diet of sugary drinks and fast food. A lot of people were jealous of how much crap I ate but didn't seem to put on anything. I felt unhealthy though so I changed it.

Ill try a mini bulk and see what changes that makes.

Atola

Useful.Idiot wrote: »

what is your workout routine like for the week?

1.Monday

Id do 3 reps of everything in a row

15-20 press ups
10-15 bicep curls 9-10 kg each arm
10 lateral raise 9kg
15 Bent Over Reverse Flys 10kg
20 incline 45 degree situps, 10 incline situps with 10kg weight on my chest twice
15 chest flys at 9-10kg
15 incline chest presses
50 second plank
12 One Arm Shoulder Press to Bicept Curl Combo (straight up)
20 One arm dumbbell rows
Pull up bar as much as possible

That takes me an hour or more

2.Tuesday

Go running for 1/2 hour and small bit of weights if im feeling ok

3.Wednesday

Weights again as Monday

4. Thursday

Cardio/ leg work with squats/ lunges. Normal situps/ v-crunches

I use the xbox game ea sports active 2 and go through the hardest cardio regime for 1/2 hour just to mix it up a bit. I find it works for me.

5. Friday

Day off

6. Saturday

Swim laps at local pool for 3/4 hour

Weights regime again as above

7.Sunday

Go for a run or do the cardio on the xbox


Do you think I should ditch the cardio stuff altogether?

Useful.Idiot

Atola wrote: »

Do you think I should ditch the cardio stuff altogether?

I'm kind of in a similar position as I'm skinny but trying to get bigger. I would say cut the cardio if you're trying to bulk but if you're really concerned about keeping some cardiovascular fitness then maybe do two light 30 min cardio sessions a week. Also maybe work with heavier weights doing less reps and don't work any same muscle two days in a row.

Also diet is indeed everything. I can't put on weight unless I make a conscious effort to eat at a calorific surplus and track my eating. Once you've gotten to a size you're happy with then you can cut to reveal the abs.

Transform

Useful.Idiot wrote: »

I'm kind of in a similar position as I'm skinny but trying to get bigger. I would say cut the cardio if you're trying to bulk but if you're really concerned about keeping some cardiovascular fitness then maybe do two light 30 min cardio sessions a week. Also maybe work with heavier weights doing less reps and don't work any same muscle two days in a row.

Also diet is indeed everything. I can't put on weight unless I make a conscious effort to eat at a calorific surplus and track my eating. Once you've gotten to a size you're happy with then you can cut to reveal the abs.

"I can't put on weight unless I make a conscious effort to eat at a calorific surplus and track my eating".

that part is essential!!

Plus when someone list their exercises and upper body is in detail but lower body movements are glossed over then i know they have the program ass backwards.

You've a good body weight program mixed with some weights but overall you need to place a bigger emphasis on the basic principle of progressive resistance i.e. get stronger, so if you're now doing pull ups at body weight then start weighted pull ups, same for press ups.

Zillah

Atola wrote: »

Some people told me that if I ate protein rich foods and lowered carbs and sugar I could achieve more built muscle with a lower body fat percentage at the same time. Im not so sure this is true now for a beginner.

You need to eat extra calories to gain muscle. As a rule you're achieving one of two things:
A - Dropping body fat (by eating a calorie deficit)
B - Gaining muscle (by eating a calorie surplus)

Regardless of which of the two you are doing you should always be eating lots of protein and lifting weights (to maintain the muscle you currently have in the case of A).

Eat more, keep lifting.

Atola

Zillah wrote: »

You need to eat extra calories to gain muscle. As a rule you're achieving one of two things:
A - Dropping body fat (by eating a calorie deficit)
B - Gaining muscle (by eating a calorie surplus)

Regardless of which of the two you are doing you should always be eating lots of protein and lifting weights (to maintain the muscle you currently have in the case of A).

Eat more, keep lifting.

Thanks Zillah,

Im finding now with the extra food im eating and less cardio that I feel a bit weary or even tired when I start doing weights. I don't feel as energetic as I did a couple of weeks ago.

Any tips on how to keep energy levels high and not take in too many more calories?

Alf Veedersane

Atola wrote: »

Thanks Zillah,

Im finding now with the extra food im eating and less cardio that I feel a bit weary or even tired when I start doing weights. I don't feel as energetic as I did a couple of weeks ago.

Any tips on how to keep energy levels high and not take in too many more calories?

What's your sleep like? Stress?

Zillah

Atola wrote: »

Thanks Zillah,

Im finding now with the extra food im eating and less cardio that I feel a bit weary or even tired when I start doing weights. I don't feel as energetic as I did a couple of weeks ago.

Any tips on how to keep energy levels high and not take in too many more calories?

I didn't say less cardio. Cardio is good for your cardio-vascular system. If you're afraid of cardio burning too many calories it is very easy to get another couple hundred in to overcome that.

When are you eating? Don't eat a big meal before training, something light an hour beforehand is fine. Eat your big meals after working out.

Atola

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

What's your sleep like? Stress?

Sleep recently has been good. Waking up naturally at 7am has been happening more as im getting fitter. Normally 7-8 hours per night.

Atola

Zillah wrote: »

I didn't say less cardio. Cardio is good for your cardio-vascular system. If you're afraid of cardio burning too many calories it is very easy to get another couple hundred in to overcome that.

When are you eating? Don't eat a big meal before training, something light an hour beforehand is fine. Eat your big meals after working out.

Problem is I have time constraints on exercise so im concentrating more on weights than cardio. I cant do both and have time to prepare meals and be with kids etc.

Good idea about the meal timing, maybe that's it. I might change my dinner time based on that. Have something small at 6pm and a bigger meal later on in the evening after workouts.

Transform

Atola wrote: »

Problem is I have time constraints on exercise so im concentrating more on weights than cardio. I cant do both and have time to prepare meals and be with kids etc.

Good idea about the meal timing, maybe that's it. I might change my dinner time based on that. Have something small at 6pm and a bigger meal later on in the evening after workouts.

plus your recovery rate hasn't improved as your strength has improved so might be time to mix up your program that will allow for better recovery between body parts or at least cycle intensity

Atola

Transform wrote: »

plus your recovery rate hasn't improved as your strength has improved so might be time to mix up your program that will allow for better recovery between body parts or at least cycle intensity

HI transform, does cycling intensity mean doing mixing it up between heavy weights and lighter weights with more reps?

Atola

OK been eating well, 5-6 meals a day, leaving rest days between exercise, not doing as much cardio, drinking protein shakes and I seem to be loosing weight. Is this normal? I thought with added muscle mass I would put on weight?

Useful.Idiot

If you're losing weight then you're still not eating enough and your meals are probably too small. Use a calorie tracker app like myFitnessPal just for a few days and track how many calories you're taking in. It should be a few hundred calories above your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE) which can be calculated here.

You'll only build minimal, if any muscle mass if you're not eating enough.

Atola

Useful.Idiot wrote: »

If you're losing weight then you're still not eating enough and your meals are probably too small. Use a calorie tracker app like myFitnessPal just for a few days and track how many calories you're taking in. It should be a few hundred calories above your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE) which can be calculated here.

You'll only build minimal, if any muscle mass if you're not eating enough.

Im eating 200 cals a day over myfitnesspals recommended of 2200! I east home made flapjacks every day with loads of peanut butter and nuts. I eat lasagne for dinner and take it in to work for lunch too. PLus my job means spending a lot of time on my butt infron of a computer.

Calories never worked for me tbh. I could eat all I like and never really put on weight. Maybe a fast metabolism? I can see differences in my body being more muscular than I was but I thought I would gain a few lbs.

Alf Veedersane

Atola wrote: »

Calories never worked for me tbh. I could eat all I like and never really put on weight. Maybe a fast metabolism? I can see differences in my body being more muscular than I was but I thought I would gain a few lbs.

Were you tracking your calories when you said they didnt work?

Most people are guilty of saying they eat loads when the calorie content would suggest otherwise.

Atola

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Were you tracking your calories when you said they didnt work?

Most people are guilty of saying they eat loads when the calorie content would suggest otherwise.

I can track them now by way of what I used to eat on a Friday.

Friday - big bowl of frosties for breakfast,
then tea, 4 biscuits and packet of crisps for a break,
chippie for lunch,
indian chicken tikka masala with chips and one nan to myself for dinner
2 bottles of wine to wash that down and chocolate bars/ sugary sweets after

I used to do this to myself every week and not put on any weight. The rest of the week wasn't much better either and this was with no exercise/ sedentary job.

When I was a teenager it was much worse than that too, snickers bars used to be part of my staple diet and I used to have 2 deserts after sunday dinner (sticky toffee pudding with custard!)

Sorry I know this is a fitness thread and people are probably hating me right now but that's the way it was.

On a side note I believe that children need to be educated better on nutrition. (if they haven't already started that)

Zillah

Atola wrote: »

Im eating 200 cals a day over myfitnesspals recommended of 2200!

Wait wait...what? That's a very low requirement for an active male. Are you sure you filled in your details correctly? Is it accounting for exercise? Also, 200 is pretty much within the margin of error for something like myfitnesspal.

Calories never worked for me tbh. I could eat all I like and never really put on weight. Maybe a fast metabolism?

Calories work for you the exact same way they work for everyone. You do not defy the laws of physics, you are not eating enough. You will gain weight if you eat more calories. You obviously have a very low baseline expectation for what a "lot" of food counts as. Aim for 3000 per day for a month and see if you can gain some.

Squeezing in extra food can be tricky when you don't have a high appetite but it will work for you if you eat more. Every day. You'll get used to it. 2 litres of full fat milk every day. Eat bread dipped in oil. Gotta get creative!

Atola

Zillah wrote: »

Wait wait...what? That's a very low requirement for an active male. Are you sure you filled in your details correctly? Is it accounting for exercise? Also, 200 is pretty much within the margin of error for something like myfitnesspal.



Calories work for you the exact same way they work for everyone. You do not defy the laws of physics, you are not eating enough. You will gain weight if you eat more calories. You obviously have a very low baseline expectation for what a "lot" of food counts as. Aim for 3000 per day for a month and see if you can gain some.

Squeezing in extra food can be tricky when you don't have a high appetite but it will work for you if you eat more. Every day. You'll get used to it. 2 litres of full fat milk every day. Eat bread dipped in oil. Gotta get creative!

I don't think im that active. Most of the day I sit on my ass at work. I only do 30 mins of cardio per week now and weights every other night for an hour.

I do try to space out meals not to stretch my stomach too much so im ready for the cut period. I have cut bread out of my diet so far but tonnes of natural yoghurt and peanut butter is in to replace it.

When I was a kid I ate until I was sick if you put enough chocolate in
front of me! I honestly don't think people absorb calories the same as each other.

Atola

Also meant to say the fitnesspal's calorie count is before protein shakes so add another couple of hundred to that maybe?

Zillah

3-4 sessions of weights for an hour every week is a hell of a lot more than most people do, and would probably account for 300 calories per session, which if you look at the numbers, is enough to undo any of the 'excess' you are eating.

You're not magic, you're not a special snow flake; you're not eating enough. You have a warped view of what a 'lot' of food is. Eat more.

Why are you planning for your cut before you've even successfully bulked at all? Talk about putting the horse before the cart. You should stretch your stomach a bit, by the sounds of it is has been sorely understretched so far. You won't do yourself any harm, eat more. It doesn't have to be all at once.

There's nothing wrong with bread, either. Especially for someone struggling to gain weight. Carbs are your friend, they're easy calories.

Atola

Zillah wrote: »

3-4 sessions of weights for an hour every week is a hell of a lot more than most people do, and would probably account for 300 calories per session, which if you look at the numbers, is enough to undo any of the 'excess' you are eating.

You're not magic, you're not a special snow flake; you're not eating enough. You have a warped view of what a 'lot' of food is. Eat more.

Why are you planning for your cut before you've even successfully bulked at all? Talk about putting the horse before the cart. You should stretch your stomach a bit, by the sounds of it is has been sorely understretched so far. You won't do yourself any harm, eat more. It doesn't have to be all at once.

There's nothing wrong with bread, either. Especially for someone struggling to gain weight. Carbs are your friend, they're easy calories.

Haha! No im not a snow flake, but I probably weigh the same!

Plan is to get fit for a holiday coming up so I thought mini bulk and cut would be good. Im happy with the results so far, just wondering why the scales aren't showing the same.

I haven't starved myself by any means and my weight sessions are including warmup and rest periods in between.

Ill try eating more and see how we go

Useful.Idiot

As a "hard-gainer" myself I find milk and nuts are a very easy way to boost the calories. I aim for about 3000 cals myself and on some days where I'm tight for time I'd make a smoothie with milk, a banana, peanut butter, oats and protein powder. An easy 1000 calories!

Atola

Useful.Idiot wrote: »

As a "hard-gainer" myself I find milk and nuts are a very easy way to boost the calories. I aim for about 3000 cals myself and on some days where I'm tight for time I'd make a smoothie with milk, a banana, peanut butter, oats and protein powder. An easy 1000 calories!

Yes that sounds the same as my flapjacks. I add 1 tablespoon of butter with 2 tablespoons peanut butter, 1tblspoon honey and 100 mils water with a crushed banana and 100g oats with mixed nuts and 2 scoops of banana flavour protein whey. Usually eat 2 of these a day and theyre yummy.

I take it u drink whole milk?

Useful.Idiot

Atola wrote: »

Yes that sounds the same as my flapjacks. I add 1 tablespoon of butter with 2 tablespoons peanut butter, 1tblspoon honey and 100 mils water with a crushed banana and 100g oats with mixed nuts and 2 scoops of banana flavour protein whey. Usually eat 2 of these a day and theyre yummy.

I take it u drink whole milk?

Nice! sounds like a tasty way to get the cals in. Yep whole milk is the only way forward. I wouldn't trust any kind of reduced fat milk as it has less nutrients and to reduce the fat you have to have an increase in something else such as lactose (sugar). Plus it tastes the best!

Zillah

Useful.Idiot wrote: »

Nice! sounds like a tasty way to get the cals in. Yep whole milk is the only way forward. I wouldn't trust any kind of reduced fat milk as it has less nutrients and to reduce the fat you have to have an increase in something else such as lactose (sugar). Plus it tastes the best!

Nothing wrong with lactose! It is technically a sugar but if you look at the glycemic index it is at 46, which makes it a very good, slow-release carb.

Full fat is the way to go but lactose is just one more reason for milk being fantastic.

mcbobbyb

If you're not gaining weight your not eating enough. Up your calories until you're gaining 0.5-1 pound a week and do this for 6 months at least. You said you looked more muscular after eating more but it was only 5 days after your post. 5 days is nothing to add muscle. You need to look long term. Or just be happy with how you are. Otherwise your wasting money/time/energy.

Mellor

Atola wrote: »

Im eating 200 cals a day over myfitnesspals recommended of 2200!

An extra 200 cals a day is nothing. and as above, you have to account for exercise and then your surplus to add mass on top.
You do 3 weights and 1 cardio sessions per week, lets say its 300 cals a session for an hour of weights. And 400 for the cardio. 1300 cals a week.
Over 7 days, thats almost 200 cals a day. So you were only just covering the exercise. You want to be eating about 500 calories more than this again. Which is 2900 a day.

Atola wrote: »

I can track them now by way of what I used to eat on a Friday.

Friday - big bowl of frosties for breakfast,
then tea, 4 biscuits and packet of crisps for a break,
chippie for lunch,
indian chicken tikka masala with chips and one nan to myself for dinner
2 bottles of wine to wash that down and chocolate bars/ sugary sweets after

1 day a week means nothing. Your whole week needs to be dedicated to eating.
I know loads of guys who struggle to but on weight despite claim to be always eating take aways and pub dinners. But when they listed their diet mon-fri, then skipped breakfast everyday and lunch was a snickers and a smoke.

Useful.Idiot wrote: »

I wouldn't trust any kind of reduced fat milk as it has less nutrients and to reduce the fat you have to have an increase in something else such as lactose (sugar). Plus it tastes the best!

They don't add anything to reduce the fat.
Low fat milk is simply whole mil with some fat removed.

Whole fat is the best choice for bulking for calories alone, but this idea that they add sugar to reduced fat milk isn't true.
The minor increase on the label is due to the reduction in volume (from removing fat)

Yer Aul One

Mellor wrote: »

They don't add anything to reduce the fat.
Low fat milk is simply whole mil with some fat removed.

Whole fat is the best choice for bulking for calories alone, but this idea that they add sugar to reduced fat milk isn't true.
The minor increase on the label is due to the reduction in volume (from removing fat)

This is interesting. Low Fat is getting a lot of heat at the moment. Are you just referring to milk or most low fat items?

MightyMandarin

Yer Aul One wrote: »

This is interesting. Low Fat is getting a lot of heat at the moment. Are you just referring to milk or most low fat items?

Anything can be 'low fat'. Low fat is a totally subjective term which can be applied to any food without it being much lower than the regular versions at all.

If they make something low fat, they just remove some of the fat content from it. But this doesn't necessarily mean that 'low fat = low calorie' as the food might have a high amount of carbs which could keep the calories up.

The 'low fat' fad is the same with the 'high in protein' craze; high in protein is terribly subjective and something which might have 5g of protein per 100cals could be advertised as a high protein source, when in comparison with actual high protein foods it's not that great at all.

The only real way to know how good a food is, is to read the nutritional info and compare it with other items.

Yer Aul One

I had been hearing that the low fat items had added sugars for taste in milks/yogurts/cheeses. I believed this willingly

MightyMandarin

Yer Aul One wrote: »

I had been hearing that the low fat items had added sugars for taste in milks/yogurts/cheeses. I believed this willingly

They probably have, but what the poster above said that they have to add sugar in order to reduce the fat content is nonsense. You can remove the fat content without adding anything to it.

Alf Veedersane

Yer Aul One wrote: »

I had been hearing that the low fat items had added sugars for taste in milks/yogurts/cheeses. I believed this willingly

"Low fat = added sugar" doesn't apply to everything as a rule.

And with milk, for example, there's the difference between having a marginally higher proportion of sugar after for at removal and having added sugar.

That said, a lot of products marketed as low fat do have added sugar.

If in doubt, read the label.

Yer Aul One

You don't know who to trust any more. Need to be vigilant against these illuminati

Mellor

Yer Aul One wrote: »

This is interesting. Low Fat is getting a lot of heat at the moment. Are you just referring to milk or most low fat items?

I was talking specifically about milk. I don't think sugar would ever be added there. Unless is was a low-fat favoured milk.

As for yogurts and stuff. The often add sugar, but not always. It depends on the brand/type. The way people refer to this added sugar you could be forgiven for thinking was always there. They sometimes add protein too to improve texture too.

But, back on topic, full fat all the way for gains. Milky milky gains.

Zillah

Mellor wrote: »

I was talking specifically about milk. I don't think sugar would ever be added there. Unless is was a low-fat favoured milk.

As for yogurts and stuff. The often add sugar, but not always. It depends on the brand/type. The way people refer to this added sugar you could be forgiven for thinking was always there. They sometimes add protein too to improve texture too.

But, back on topic, full fat all the way for gains. Milky milky gains.

I don't think he was implying that they added sugar, just that, as you said, by removing one thing the other things are increasing in direct proportion, so there's more lactose per unit volume in low-fat milk than full-fat. Interestingly, there's a tiny bit more protein in low-fat milk too.