Assisted Suicide

P_1

Glad to see she was cleared. I thought our membership of the EU guaranteed us freedom of movement? If she was convicted then the courts would be full week in week end trying folk who booked weekends in Amsterdam and folk who had to go to England for abortions.

Dan Jaman

While being thoroughly disgusted by the actions of the travel agent, the Gards and the DPP, I can understand why each of them acted as they did.
When my time comes, I will choose my exit, and hopefully the law will be clarified and/or modified to allow me some assistance if I need it.

folamh

folamh wrote: »

But if jurors don't adhere to legislation, it undermines the rule of law.

Being judged by a jury is being judged by your peers. If your peers feel that the situation is ridiculous and untenable they are absolutely entitled to bring in the verdict they feel is appropriate.

timetogo

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The travel agent, Gardai and DPP have behaved disgracefully in this case.

I don't agree about the travel agent and the Gardai. If the travel agent didn't do anything they could be in court beside her. The Gardai don't get to choose which laws the uphold.

The real question is how do we stop this from happening again. I believe if a person has a disease for which there is no cure and which will vastly degrade the persons life towards the end the person should have the choice to end their life. So how do we get the law changed. Is it a referendum (like every question seems to be). I doubt Fine Gael are the party that would support this kind of change. I'd say the Minister For Health might actually think about it but is he the right person to pester?

folamh

folamh wrote: »

Having dying rooms accessible to everyone without discrimination would probably result in more suicides which is arguably worse than a situation of less suicides albeit in less safe circumstances.

Bernadette Parte, Marie Fleming's solicitor, was on Newstalk this morning and she said that, in countries where assisted suicide has been introduced, there is no empirical data to suggest an increase/spike in suicides.

MrWalsh

folamh wrote: »

Having dying rooms accessible to everyone without discrimination would probably result in more suicides which is arguably worse than a situation of less suicides albeit in less safe circumstances.

I dont see why it would result in more suicides but even if it did I dont see why that is worse? Im sure many hospice patients would rather go in a dying room than from natural causes.

folamh

Deleted User wrote: »

Bernadette Parte, Marie Fleming's solicitor, was on Newstalk this morning and she said that, in countries where assisted suicide has been introduced, there is no empirical data to suggest an increase/spike in suicides.

I'm not talking about assisted suicide per se, which I support. I'm referring to another user's proposal to have organized "dying rooms".

folamh

MrWalsh wrote: »

I dont see why it would result in more suicides but even if it did I dont see why that is worse? Im sure many hospice patients would rather go in a dying room than from natural causes.

If your loved one suffered a depressive episode which caused them to have suicidal thoughts, would you want them to have access to a "dying room"?

MrWalsh

folamh wrote: »

If your loved one suffered a depressive episode which caused them to have suicidal thoughts, would you want them to have access to a "dying room"?

Yes I would.

Hotblack Desiato

timetogo wrote: »

I don't agree about the travel agent and the Gardai. If the travel agent didn't do anything they could be in court beside her.

For selling a ticket to travel outside the country? It's not East bloody Germany here.

Are they going to report every bunch of lads going to Amsterdam in case they might smoke or screw something they can't legally here?

It's ludicrous to suggest that our laws should have effect outside our country, especially as we've given women the explicit right to travel abroad for abortions which are illegal here - we decided it was both unenforceable and unjust to try to prevent women who may be pregnant from leaving the country just in case they are going to have an abortion.

However, the legislature, DPP and Gardai seem fine with preventing severely ill people from travelling in case they might procure an assisted suicide in another country where it is legal.

The Gardai don't get to choose which laws the uphold.

In practice they do. They turn a blind eye to a hell of a lot of things.
They didn't prosecute after the travel agent episode, which made it even more ludicrous when that was dragged up again in this trial. Yes, they're allowed do that, but if they regarded a telling off as sufficient at the time how could it make sense to later have O'Rorke up in court on a charge for that same event - which didn't even happen as the tickets were never collected never mind used - and there was no guarantee anyway that if the woman had travelled an assisted suicide would have occurred.

The real question is how do we stop this from happening again.

The law must be changed. I don't think a referendum is required, but politicians like them to insulate a controversial law from challenge, and insulate themselves from blame/fallout by delegating responsibility to the people.

As we're finding out now, it's really not a good idea for a small oppressed minority to depend upon the goodwill of the majority for their rights, especially when the majority are not affected by the issue personally at all, and/or are still in thrall to the outdated doctrines of a dictatorial church.

JohnMearsheimer

I followed Marie Fleming's story closely in the news at the time and I sat at home, like many others, and contemplated what a tough decision it is to make to take your own life. I ended up being diagnosed with MS myself about 5 months after Marie Fleming passed away. If my illness progressed to the point where I would have no quality of life I would at least like the option.

zeffabelli

I thought you had the right to travel?

why is this even a case in the first place?

seamus

folamh wrote: »

Having dying rooms accessible to everyone without discrimination would probably result in more suicides which is arguably worse than a situation of less suicides albeit in less safe circumstances.

More reported suicides perhaps, but not more actual suicides.

Worth noting that the number of people over 60 who die of suicide absolutely dwarfs the figures of all other age groups put together.

They're just rarely reported as suicide because these people were already terminally ill or infirm and for various reason the doctor will report the deaths as old age or cardiac arrest or whatever.

Where a death is not unexpected, there is no autopsy carried out, so no comprehensive review done.

sbsquarepants

folamh wrote: »

I was (partially) agreeing with you!

Having dying rooms accessible to everyone without discrimination would probably result in more suicides which is arguably worse than a situation of less suicides albeit in less safe circumstances.

I'm not sure that safety is all that big a concern amongst those attempting suicide!

folamh

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'm not sure that safety is all that big a concern amongst those attempting suicide!

It's a concern for those who survive and are left with traumatic injuries, and it's a concern for those who find the body in a traumatic state (or indeed never find the body).

folamh

MrWalsh wrote: »

Yes I would.

Well I suppose we fundamentally disagree then. If my loved one suffered a temporary depressive episode and killed herself because the option was easy and accessible to her in a "dying room", I'd think that worse than if she continued to live.

MrWalsh

folamh wrote: »

Well I suppose we fundamentally disagree then. If my loved one suffered a temporary depressive episode and killed herself because the option was easy and accessible to her in a "dying room", I'd think that worse than if she continued to live.

How exactly do you think dying rooms would work? I think you and I have a fundamentally different view of what they are.

Do you really think people could just walk up and say "Time to Die" and thatd be it? Very naive.

folamh

Well yeah, I'm referring to the "accessible to everyone without discrimination" condition. You think people who are suicidal because of depression ought have access. How would such a scheme be regulated, and what sort of people wouldn't qualify in your view?

JupiterKid

If someone is in agonising and terminal pain then I would fully support their right to die with dignity.

MrWalsh

folamh wrote: »

Well yeah, I'm referring to the "accessible to everyone without discrimination" condition. You think people who are suicidal because of depression ought have access. How would such a scheme be regulated, and what sort of people wouldn't qualify in your view?

Its probably easier to reply to this with a link - basically how Dignitas works.

http://www.dignitas.ch/index.php?option=com%20_content&view=article&id=23&lang=en

You seem to think that I have a hard line view on it : without discrimination, who would or wouldnt qualify etc.... Its completely the opposite actually. I believe that such a thing should be available, but that it should be regulated and may result in people changing their mind or being helped to come past a particular depressive episode etc.

This line from the above link is good:

These people were taken seriously in their wish for assisted suicide yet, at the same time, it was possible to show them – usually with the assistance of doctors – an alternative to prematurely ending their life.

Despite your fear that it would result in people killing themselves for no good reason left, right and centre, I dont believe that has been the reality for such organisations.

folamh

Okay, I guess I misinterpreted what you meant when you said that you would want your loved one who is suicidally depressed to have access. There is no need to call me naïve by the way.

Prinks

Gongoozler wrote: »

When I heard about this in terms of the travel agent calling the guards, it really pissed me off. They could so easily have turned a blind eye to it, but they chose not to. That's what I found sickening about this. I don't know that I could have respect for someone who would do that.

I couldn't believe that the travel agency was so officious. What business is it of theirs why someone is going abroad? It would have been wiser to book online. Travel agencies are going bust because of online booking, serves them right when you see this kind of meddling in others affairs.

timetogo

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

For selling a ticket to travel outside the country? It's not East bloody Germany here.

Thanks for the geography tip. What I meant was if the travel agent was aware of something illegal about to occur he / she would have to cover themselves by saying it to the Gardai. Obviously they had more information than somebody just buying a ticket abroad. If they had that information then that's something that could be used as evidence in a trial later on. I'm guessing here but I'm assuming travel agents don't go to the Guards for everybody who buys a ticket to a country that allows suicide.

I wouldn't want to be in a situation in 2 months where the Guards had evidence that I knew about the suicide and said nothing. Gail O'Rourke was being charged with some offences that could have been leveled against anybody who knew about Bernadettes impending suicide and assisted her. Travel agent would fall under that.

I don't agree with the law and if I ever come to the same situation I'd like to have the choice myself (edit that. I will have the choice whether it's legal or not). On the other side if I become aware of some stranger I know little about is about to break the law and there's a chance I'll be implicated I'll be off to the Guards myself and let it be their problem. It doesn't matter if the law is right or an ass. If it's a stupid law that's not taken into account when you're in court.


It's easy typing away saying you'd put yourself at risk for a stranger. I would like anybody who has an incurable disease have the option of assisted suicide. However I'm not willing to go to jail over it for a stranger. I might for a family member or close friend.

MrWalsh

folamh wrote: »

Okay, I guess I misinterpreted what you meant when you said that you would want your loved one who is suicidally depressed to have access. There is no need to call me naïve by the way.

I would want them to have access. Whether or not death was an outcome of that access would be a matter for the process to decide. And perhaps the correct outcome would be death if a person had suffered depression all their lives and were just sick and tired of it - Robin Williams as an example. For some life is just too painful. My own father medicated his undiagnosed mental health issues with alcohol since his teens and destroyed the lives of those around him for decades in the process. Would I prefer if he had had access to a dying room? Definitely!

If the view that a dying room is one that people just walk in off the street and die then that is a naive view.

Hotblack Desiato

timetogo wrote: »

Thanks for the geography tip.

Aren't you at all concerned that agents of this state think they can confine you to this country if they think you might do something illegal here, legal there, while away?

What message does the fact that a prosecution, albeit unsuccessful, was attempted here send to the terminally ill who may be contemplating assisted suicide abroad, and their loved ones?

This is nothing short of bullying the very weakest in society simply because they are disabled. Those who are still able-bodied enough to kill themselves without assistance commit no crime even if they do it here. If they walk onto the plane to Zurich under their own steam, no garda will stop them.

What I meant was if the travel agent was aware of something illegal about to occur he / she would have to cover themselves by saying it to the Gardai.

But assisted suicide is legal in Switzerland and many other countries. No illegal act was to take place here, and clearly the jury agreed.

timetogo

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Aren't you at all concerned that agents of this state think they can confine you to this country if they think you might do something illegal here, legal there, while away?

Absolutely. Where did I imply otherwise?

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What message does the fact that a prosecution, albeit unsuccessful, was attempted here send to the terminally ill who may be contemplating assisted suicide abroad, and their loved ones?

Probably the same type of message that Ireland sends when women go to the UK for abortions. I'd be less worried about messages and more worried about fixing the law. Unfortunately this is Ireland. The people typing on Boards are only a small subset of the population of Ireland. We do have a lot of ill informed or religious people on this island that our politicians have to pander to. It is changing thankfully. But sloooowly.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This is nothing short of bullying the very weakest in society simply because they are disabled. Those who are still able-bodied enough to kill themselves without assistance commit no crime even if they do it here. If they walk onto the plane to Zurich under their own steam, no garda will stop them.

Agreed. Worse than that. Because of the current law I know if I get a debilitating disease and I want to end my life I'll have to end it while I can still travel under my own steam and not implicate people which may be months before I might actually want to end it. As well as that I may need my loved ones to stay away for fear of getting them in trouble. Isn't that just the kind of ****e you want to be worrying about at the end of your life.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

But assisted suicide is legal in Switzerland and many other countries. No illegal act was to take place here, and clearly the jury agreed.

Yep. If I was on the jury I wouldn't have convicted either. Most non fundamentalist, decent human being would do the same. Makes you wonder why we have such archaic laws on our books.

househero

Personally, I don't believe in suicide. Or weak peoples right to it. If there is the smallest moment of happiness during a persons day, we should be thankful for it.

But I also (and much more strongly) don't believe the state has any right to dictate how anybody should choose to live or die for that matter.

I have personal experience of this issue, at the time, I didn't realise what was happening. But assisted suicides do happen here and they are turned a blind eye to. Mostly for dignity. And probably because we can't afford to loose good doctors.

It is when somebody gets in the news, they are refused permission. And all this crap kicks off.

It shouldn't be illegal. But I strongly don't condone it. We get one life. Live it.

Prinks

househero wrote: »

It is when somebody gets in the news, they are refused permission. And all this crap kicks off.

None of it would have 'kicked off' if the travel agency had either supplied tickets as asked, or just refused. Going to the guards was just busy busy busybodying. The same goes for the guards. They didn't HAVE to prosecute.

househero wrote: »

It shouldn't be illegal. But I strongly don't condone it. We get one life. Live it.

You're free not to commit suicide if you don't want to.

Hotblack Desiato

timetogo wrote: »

Probably the same type of message that Ireland sends when women go to the UK for abortions.

There's an explicit constitutional right to travel for an abortion though - because second-guessing the travel plans of half the population is too much hassle for the authorities, but small minorities can be pushed around.

We do have a lot of ill informed or religious people on this island that our politicians have to pander to. It is changing thankfully. But sloooowly.

I wish I knew why they always pander to the conservative, OAP or near to it vote? Why not pander to people like us, who are growing in numbers and will (hopefully) be voting for decades to come?

It enrages me that most of the people who voted for the 8th amendment 32 years ago are either dead now, or too old to reproduce, but we're stuck with it because almost no politicians have the balls to propose to change it. Nobody who is under 50 now had a vote on this.

As a parent of young kids, the farce that is religious-controlled education in this country drives me nuts, too.

What is clear is that we need legislation - preferably like that in Belgium, compassionate and sensible. However, given the level of leadership displayed by our politicians I doubt that will ever happen.

At a minimum we need to ensure that every infirm or wheelchair confined person that tries to book a flight isn't subjected to a 'should I report them to the gardai because who knows what they might do when the leave our saintly shores?' attitude by busybody travelagents (but actually, who uses travel agents anymore?).

timetogo

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There's an explicit constitutional right to travel for an abortion though - because second-guessing the travel plans of half the population is too much hassle for the authorities, but small minorities can be pushed around.

Still a ****e message. But it's another topic.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I wish I knew why they always pander to the conservative, OAP or near to it vote? Why not pander to people like us, who are growing in numbers and will (hopefully) be voting for decades to come?

Because they vote. About 90% of the people I know are of similar opinion to me about these kind of issues. But they're my peers. If I lived somewhere else in Ireland and most of the people around me had other opinions all my life I might have a different opinion now. <- That sentence is politically correct. I typed it a few times but would have got in trouble stereotyping certain people in our society or talking religion and IQ. I dug several holes but gave up and stuck with that bland sentence :P

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It enrages me that most of the people who voted for the 8th amendment 32 years ago are either dead now, or too old to reproduce, but we're stuck with it because almost no politicians have the balls to propose to change it. Nobody who is under 50 now had a vote on this.

As a parent of young kids, the farce that is religious-controlled education in this country drives me nuts, too.

It's changing. Slowly, but I think it's a waiting game. Ireland is getting better. All we can do is keep on pestering our politicians and letting them know what we think. I think a lot of them think we're right wing conservative christians. Some are but that's decreasing every year.

timetogo

timetogo wrote: »

All we can do is keep on pestering our politicians and letting them know what we think. I think a lot of them think we're right wing conservative christians. Some are but that's decreasing every year.

Politicians don't really worry about what 'we', the general public, think. What they really do get concerned about is newspaper headlines or reports. This is why NGOs have so much power. If a politician says the 'wrong' thing, an NGO can have them plastered across the media the next day in an unflattering way.
This is why they avoid 'controversial' issues and why some conservative, church allied, groups have so much soft power.

seamus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Aren't you at all concerned that agents of this state think they can confine you to this country if they think you might do something illegal here, legal there, while away?

There are some cases where that's a valid act - such as someone travelling to have sex with child prostitutes.

In this case though it's worth noting that the state did not at any point block anyone from travelling. They were simply warned of the potential consequences of their actions.

Carlos Orange

Prinks wrote: »

None of it would have 'kicked off' if the travel agency had either supplied tickets as asked, or just refused. Going to the guards was just busy busy busybodying. The same goes for the guards. They didn't HAVE to prosecute.

You do know that police don't prosecute don't you.