Public sector pay increase

Jawgap

bjork wrote: »

More fires put out in shorter times


More hearts operated on. Less waiting lists.

What happens if the fire prevention efforts are successful?

What about RTAs? Should they train on vehicle extractions or only deal with fires? Likewise other rescues - should they train for those or just cross their fingers that if, for instance, a building collapses someone else will handle rescue and recovery.

Riskymove

bjork wrote: »

More fires put out in shorter times


More hearts operated on. Less waiting lists.

what if Government wont replace vacancies and there are not enough firemen to tackle all the fires

what if they don't get the equipment needed


what if Govt close wards and cut Health budgets

darkpagandeath

Riskymove wrote: »

I appreciate some people won't be happy until PS have no leave at all and work 24 hours a day....but as I said...feel free to research

Nope just something close to the hours put in in a private sector job.

Riskymove

darkpagandeath wrote: »

If it was anything impressive it would have been linked fairly sharpish.

so it is clear you won't research it...probably suits the agenda to just make assumptions anyway

Riskymove

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Nope just something close to the hours put in in a private sector job.

talk to any junior doctor

darkpagandeath

Riskymove wrote: »

so it is clear you won't research it...probably suits the agenda to just make assumptions anyway

Link away I will read it.

osarusan

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Down size staff numbers in that case.

Not relevant to the point I was making though.

darkpagandeath

Riskymove wrote: »

talk to any junior doctor

What about the absolute tunes of back office staff ? pretty poor example to be fair. People know exactly who could be working to full potential and those that are not.

darkpagandeath

osarusan wrote: »

Not relevant to the point I was making though.

Why do you need staff if they are not working ? Seems an odd attitude to have.

Riskymove

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What about the absolute tunes of back office staff ?

none of them in private sector of course

darkpagandeath

Riskymove wrote: »

none of them in private sector of course

They get fired or outsourced if they are not doing the job.

bjork

osarusan wrote: »

Oops, meant to edit my post but deleted it instead.


What if there are fewer fires for them to put out?

But those fires they do have to deal with are bigger?


What if there are fewer hearts to be operated on?

they have to put out the bigger fires in less time.

They have to train on time off instead of sitting round. Be the top of their game. Other countries should be looking to us for fire management tips.


I saw a guy in England there the other day who has trained as all 3> Ambulance, police and fireman.


Are they're waiting lists for heart surgery? If there is they need to sort it out

If not, they need to be doing research and organizing their departments to be the height of efficiency. Other countries should be looking to us on how to run a heart surgery department. Be top of their game.

Riskymove wrote: »

what if Government wont replace vacancies and there are not enough firemen to tackle all the fires

what if they don't get the equipment needed


what if Govt close wards and cut Health budgets

The civil servant organizing those things need their arses kicked. But apparently their top of their game so this is inconceivable

Jawgap wrote: »

What happens if the fire prevention efforts are successful?

What about RTAs? Should they train on vehicle extractions or only deal with fires? Likewise other rescues - should they train for those or just cross their fingers that if, for instance, a building collapses someone else will handle rescue and recovery.

These are already part of their duties,no?

jcon1913

KomradeBishop wrote: »

We have the lowest interest rate on government bonds/debt for over 30 years right now - we should be expanding the budget deficit (both through spending and tax reductions), to grow the economy, given that doing so would be so cheap to do right now - and then bring it back to surplus when we have full private sector employment.

Pointless trying to pay down our national debt, when it can be expanded sustainably (due to quarter-century-low interest rates), when we aren't even running at full economic capacity yet - when we've got everyone back working, i.e. when tax income is at its maximum potential and the economy is at full speed, that is when you pay down debts, as you can pay them back much faster then.

This is what got us into the mess we are in now. "Borrow today pay tomorrow". We gave to live within our means as a country.

Riskymove

darkpagandeath wrote: »

They get fired or outsourced if they are not doing the job.

of course they all do

all private sector workers work fully without any slacking for 80 hours a week for half pay etc...

while all PS slack for 20 hours a week for double pay

yeah grand sure we know this

osarusan

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why do you need staff if they are not working ? Seems an odd attitude to have.

Your strawman argument is not relevant to the point I'm making, as I'm sure you know.

Riskymove

bjork wrote: »

These are already part of their duties,no?

the continued moving of the goalposts is impressive

the discussion was about how to measure a fireman's performance

bjork

Were there no and are there still too many middle managers and special positions hanging around as a legacy after the health boards joined to make HSE.

Also on fire officers>>Any one know how many fire chiefs in Ireland?

Cos it's tons more than they have in England

jcon1913

Jawgap wrote: »

They're Irish annuity rates -
UK annuity rates are closer to 6%.

That's why I was trying to get my contributions out

Jog on my friend. You dont know what your talking about. You never factored in the foreign excgange loss over the last few months.

Still you have enough contributions to fund 2/3rds of final salary? Do the maths - in Ireland

bjork

Riskymove wrote: »

the continued moving of the goalposts is impressive

the discussion was about how to measure a fireman's performance

Yes and if they are part of their duties it is already included in their performance.


Should they train for things that are part of their job?
Is that what you're asking me?

Yes is the obvious answer

KomradeBishop

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Agreed but the key to sustainability is limiting borrowing so debt/gdp ratio constantly falls over time.

We're not talking about your definition of 'sustainable', we're talking about taking on more debt sustainably.
Simple fact is: Interest rates on debt are the lowest they have been in more than 30 years, so debt can be expanded sustainably quite easily - and this can lower debt to GDP by increasing GDP more than it increases debt.

Plenty of room for greatly and sustainably expanding government spending through debt right now, as should be done - something that is true, regardless of how people think that money is best spent, and regardless of how much anyone dislikes it.

Riskymove

bjork wrote: »

Yes and if they are part of their duties it is already included in their performance.


Should they train for things that are part of their job?
Is that what you're asking me?

Yes is the obvious answer

no, at this point the idea seems to be if a fireman performs his duties to the highest level resulting in less fires...he should be fired as he is no longer needed

jcon1913

Riskymove wrote: »

talk to any junior doctor

Hard cases make bad law. Once again moving from specific to general is a poor move.

MonkeyTennis

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What about the absolute tunes of back office staff ? pretty poor example to be fair.

ah come now. Peoples musical tastes are not relevant here. :mad:

bjork

Riskymove wrote: »

no, at this point the idea seems to be if a fireman performs his duties to the highest level resulting in less fires...he should be fired as he is no longer needed

So public servants are afraid if they do they are too good at their job, there'll be no more work for them to do?

So go slow, go wrong and keep the work flowing in?

Valmont

How big is the pay increase?

Riskymove

bjork wrote: »

So public servants are afraid if they do they are too good at their job, there'll be no more work for them to do?

So go slow, go wrong and keep the work flowing in?

goalposts move again.....even more impressive

your ability to twist and pretend that people have said something they haven't is really top notch

JPF82

This is one of the most depressing threads I have ever read. A great display of the Irish mind set of knock everyone based on the problems with a few. Some of the worst customer service I have received has come from private sector companies. I have had the displeasure of dealing with a few jobsworths in dealing with social welfare in the past also.

Both sides here don't understand what the other jobs entail. BTW, I would agree with the need for greater efficiencies in some Public Sector Areas.

As an aside, I remember starting work in the funds industry in Dublin in 2005, earning €500 per week and getting mocked by a young builder I shared the house with because he earned more and had a poor leaving cert to his name. I'm sure when the sh!t hit the fan a few years later he wouldn't have been so cocky. I admit I was jealous that he could earn more than me after I had gone to college, but I understood it was my choice.

As it happens, I am now in the final stages of qualifying to be a teacher and taking a huge pay cut to go from the private sector to public to do something I really enjoy and have a passion for. Again, I made this choice myself and I won't go around bemoaning that others with less qualifications than myself will earn more money in the private sector.

Here it just seems people are miserable with their lot and hate to see other do better than them. Get over that mind set and you will enjoy life. I admit, improvements need to be made in certain areas of the Public Sector, but don't go around disguising jealousy as genuine concern for the nation.

Riskymove

Valmont wrote: »

How big is the pay increase?

no one knows because there isn't actually anything proposed

if you think things are bad now, wait until we get to that point

bjork

Riskymove wrote: »

goalposts move again.....even more impressive

your ability to twist and pretend that people have said something they haven't is really top notch

What is it then you are saying?

Can you explain without ranting about firemen being expected to attend RTA and then them having no more work because they prevented them all?

Iwasfrozen

KomradeBishop wrote: »

We're not talking about your definition of 'sustainable', we're talking about taking on more debt sustainably.
Simple fact is: Interest rates on debt are the lowest they have been in more than 30 years, so debt can be expanded sustainably quite easily - and this can lower debt to GDP by increasing GDP more than it increases debt.

Plenty of room for greatly and sustainably expanding government spending through debt right now, as should be done - something that is true, regardless of how people think that money is best spent, and regardless of how much anyone dislikes it.

Borrowing to increase debt/gdp ratio to spend on wages is not sustainable.

Money gained from long term borrowing bond markets should be used to increase long term economic potential you do this by upgrading infrastructure not paying higher wages.

Riskymove

bjork wrote: »

What is it then you are saying?

Can you explain without ranting about firemen being expected to attend RTA and then them having no more work because they prevented them all?

the discussion:

1. How do you measure a the performance of a fireman

2. suggestion - fires are attended to quicker and pout out faster

3. issue - what if there are not enough firemen due to cuts and the fireman does his best but cannot achieve the target

4. answer - no response

5. other issue - what if there are less fires at a certain time

6. response - let firemen go


the original question has long been ignored

similar issues apply to any attempt measure other PS workers

they are subject to a number of influences beyond their control with regard to their jobs.

bjork

Riskymove wrote: »

the discussion:

1. How do you measure a the performance of a fireman

2. suggestion - fires are attended to quicker and pout out faster

3. issue - what if there are not enough firemen due to cuts and the fireman does his best but cannot achieve the target

4. answer - no response

5. other issue - what if there are less fires at a certain time

6. response - let firemen go


the original question has long been ignored

similar issues apply to any attempt measure other PS workers

they are subject to a number of influences beyond their control with regard to their jobs.

3. Who's making the cuts to the number of firemen?

Answer-a civil servant

5. This was not my answer
They have other matters to be attending to , RTA, training etc





What if the sky falls?

Tobyglen

Farce, services produced by some sector are a shambles. Country is still in horrible shape in terms of debt to GDP and overall debt level. This jobs for life situation has to be abolished.

BoatMad

Here it just seems people are miserable with their lot and hate to see other do better than them. Get over that mind set and you will enjoy life. I admit, improvements need to be made in certain areas of the Public Sector, but don't go around disguising jealousy as genuine concern for the nation.

Its not as simple as simple begrudgery. Firstly these pay rises have to funded from tax, that tax in essence comes from the private sector, since tax in the PS is only recycled money.

secondly people, that have now poor pensions, insecure jobs, low hours contracts are looking at the benefits that accrue to those in the PS. A well rounded state cannot allow the conditions of private and public workers to deviate too much.

Historically PS workers were paid less then private on the basis of job security and gold plated pensions. That pay differential was eroded by the public sector unions and profligate governments in the run up to the "00"s,

Riskymove

bjork wrote: »

What if the sky falls?

then I think we'd all have bigger problems



who is making cuts is irrelevant to the fireman trying to do his job

How do you decide if he is performing to a high, acceptable or unacceptable performance..what are the targets

Tobyglen

JPF82 wrote: »

This is one of the most depressing threads I have ever read. A great display of the Irish mind set of knock everyone based on the problems with a few. Some of the worst customer service I have received has come from private sector companies. I have had the displeasure of dealing with a few jobsworths in dealing with social welfare in the past also.

Both sides here don't understand what the other jobs entail. BTW, I would agree with the need for greater efficiencies in some Public Sector Areas.

As an aside, I remember starting work in the funds industry in Dublin in 2005, earning €500 per week and getting mocked by a young builder I shared the house with because he earned more and had a poor leaving cert to his name. I'm sure when the sh!t hit the fan a few years later he wouldn't have been so cocky. I admit I was jealous that he could earn more than me after I had gone to college, but I understood it was my choice.

As it happens, I am now in the final stages of qualifying to be a teacher and taking a huge pay cut to go from the private sector to public to do something I really enjoy and have a passion for. Again, I made this choice myself and I won't go around bemoaning that others with less qualifications than myself will earn more money in the private sector.

Here it just seems people are miserable with their lot and hate to see other do better than them. Get over that mind set and you will enjoy life. I admit, improvements need to be made in certain areas of the Public Sector, but don't go around disguising jealousy as genuine concern for the nation.

Teachers here are well paid.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/irish-teachers-among-best-paid-in-the-world-oecd-30573265.html


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/are-irish-teachers-really-the-best-paid-in-europe-1.1568333

KomradeBishop

jcon1913 wrote: »

This is what got us into the mess we are in now. "Borrow today pay tomorrow". We gave to live within our means as a country.

Study economics and the economic crisis - it's a bit more complicated than 'all borrowing = bad'.

Riskymove

Tobyglen wrote: »

Teachers here are well paid.

using a formula based on purchasing power

the report also says that Irish teachers spend more time in the classroom than others which, surprisingly, doesn't feature in these discussions much!

TerrorFirmer

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

No, they're not. The ****e being spewed in this thread is simply unreal.



Link

I also took the liberty of looking at the figure for the UK. Works out at about 40K euro. Funny, nowhere near 'half' the Irish figure as you claim - actually it's about 15%.

€48,430? How is that worked out? Top of the pay scale is €59359, €61683 for those at top of the scale for 10 years. That's before the pretty generous allowances for principals and the like are taken into account. I would think we have a higher proportion of principals than the UK or the like.

uch

Tobyglen wrote: »

Farce, services produced by some sector are a shambles. Country is still in horrible shape in terms of debt to GDP and overall debt level. This jobs for life situation has to be abolished.

Debt level was caused by Banking, a Private industry, nothing to do with PS

kippy

There is some awful nonsense being spouted here from both side of the divide.

darkpagandeath

Riskymove wrote: »

no, at this point the idea seems to be if a fireman performs his duties to the highest level resulting in less fires...he should be fired as he is no longer needed

So you are saying there are to many already ? You know if they perform ?

BoatMad

uch wrote: »

Debt level was caused by Banking, a Private industry, nothing to do with PS

primary issue with state funding was the current deficit , that was unconnected to the banking re finance. That state deficit is directly connected to the PS employment costs , which are the biggest single item in that current budget.

Look at the PS expansion from 1995, we have over 100,000 extra PS staff, these all have to be paid for.

Banking debt was primary raised via raiding the pension reserve ( no borrowing ) and promissory notes ( in effect printing euros)

Tobyglen

uch wrote: »

Debt level was caused by Banking, a Private industry, nothing to do with PS

Simply not true. Over bloated public sector had a huge impact. Wages & Numbers spiraled in the boom years to unsustainable levels.

darkpagandeath

JPF82 wrote: »

This is one of the most depressing threads I have ever read. A great display of the Irish mind set of knock everyone based on the problems with a few. Some of the worst customer service I have received has come from private sector companies. I have had the displeasure of dealing with a few jobsworths in dealing with social welfare in the past also.

Both sides here don't understand what the other jobs entail. BTW, I would agree with the need for greater efficiencies in some Public Sector Areas.

As an aside, I remember starting work in the funds industry in Dublin in 2005, earning €500 per week and getting mocked by a young builder I shared the house with because he earned more and had a poor leaving cert to his name. I'm sure when the sh!t hit the fan a few years later he wouldn't have been so cocky. I admit I was jealous that he could earn more than me after I had gone to college, but I understood it was my choice.

As it happens, I am now in the final stages of qualifying to be a teacher and taking a huge pay cut to go from the private sector to public to do something I really enjoy and have a passion for. Again, I made this choice myself and I won't go around bemoaning that others with less qualifications than myself will earn more money in the private sector.

Here it just seems people are miserable with their lot and hate to see other do better than them. Get over that mind set and you will enjoy life. I admit, improvements need to be made in certain areas of the Public Sector, but don't go around disguising jealousy as genuine concern for the nation.

Nope just wondering why our PS are paid some of the highest wages in the EZ Simple really.

bjork

Top-heavy fire service costing vital frontline
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/topheavy-fire-service-costing-vital-frontline-26726421.html

As cutbacks bite, fire stations have shut, firefighter job vacancies go unfilled, and millions have been hacked off the fire service budget -- yet there are hundreds of high-earning senior fire officers, research by the Sunday Independent has discovered.
"Compared with other jurisdictions the droves of senior managers is extraordinary," one source in the sector said.


Too many chiefs and not enough Indians

Tobyglen

Riskymove wrote: »

using a formula based on purchasing power

the report also says that Irish teachers spend more time in the classroom than others which, surprisingly, doesn't feature in these discussions much!

Primary yes, secondary no. Teachers in Ireland are well paid in average comparisons to counterparts in Europe on almost every scale.

Riskymove

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So you are saying there are to many already ? You know if they perform ?

see above about moving goalposts

Riskymove

bjork wrote: »

Too many chiefs and not enough Indians

and again just move on

the discussion was about measuring performance

of course there are no solutions provided so instead it moves on to there being too many Fire chiefs!!:rolleyes:

evolving_doors

scary wrote: »

So other than averages it's all just speculative so.

In relation to the employment survey cso 20090, it just shows that its comparing apples with oranges.
Main thing is, is that qualification levels in PS are higher... so, shock horror... their pay is higher (on average of course).