Public sector pay increase

Kermit.de.frog

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Business as usual so. Did you really expect anything else?

No. I had hoped that the trauma of the crisis would instill a bit of common sense and self control. This stuff damages the competitive position of the country and puts private sector jobs at risk and will prevent other investment and that will put the economy at risk.

The Backwards Man

Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals, I get my back into my living.

kneemos

Still borrowing 6 billion per year.

Better off hiring a few more doctors or open a ward or two.

Arsemageddon

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No. I had hoped that the trauma of the crisis would instill a bit of common sense and self control. This stuff damages the competitive position of the country and puts private sector jobs at risk and will prevent other investment and that will put the economy at risk.

Not trying to get a rise out of you here but I have to say that's a bit naïve.

On the bright side you'll have all the potholes round your way fixed in the very near future.

silverfeather

If it's going to improve our services good. People forget a lot of workers had hours cut and we the public suffered.

Fr_Dougal

€800 per PS vote in d'election.

Dozer Dave

Whats the weather like tomorrow?

The Backwards Man

Dozer Dave wrote: »

Whats the weather like tomorrow?

There's an Eminence Front sweeping across the country

Dozer Dave

The Backwards Man wrote: »

There's an Eminence Front sweeping across the country

I was planning second cut silage.

silverfeather

The Backwards Man wrote: »

There's an Eminence Front sweeping across the country

The sun shines
And people forget
They spray flies as the speedboat glides
And people forget
Forget they're hiding
The girls smile
And people forget
The snow packs as the skier tracks
And people forget
Forget they're hiding.

Behind an eminence front
Eminence front - It's a put on.
It's Eminence front
It's Eminence front - It's a put on.
An Eminence front
Eminence front - It's a put on.
Eminence front
It's Eminence front
It's Eminence front - It's a put on.
It's a put on
It's a put on
It's a put on

The Backwards Man

Dozer Dave wrote: »

I was planning second cut silage.

Was a false summer last year too, better be sure we Won't Be Fooled Again

silverfeather

You've lost me.

The Backwards Man

silverfeather wrote: »

You've lost me.

I Can't Explain

silverfeather

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I Can't Explain

ah well....no worries

Turtwig

Restoring pay shouldn't be priority; hiring more staff should be.

The Backwards Man

Turtwig wrote: »

; hiring more staff

Substitute?

silverfeather

Turtwig wrote: »

Restoring pay shouldn't be priority; hiring more staff should be.

There would be more striking I would bet if they had not restored pay.

Cookie_Monster

The election won't win itself you know.

jank

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Well actually i think a Principals role is comparable to a CEO going by the definition:

a chief executive officer, the highest-ranking person in a company or other institution, ultimately responsible for taking managerial decisions.

Sure, they may be answerable to a Board of Management but CEO's are answerable to shareholders too! And the principal often has the final say on the BOM (to my knowledge!).

So if you claim they are mid-level managers then .... who is above them!!

As regards making comparisons i was referring to the poster who said it wasn't a proper comparison because ...

"Chartered Accountants have to spend years doing professional exams outside college, it's not a fair comparison. "

That was a separate argument to the poster's gripe about capping a Principals wages at 50k (plus bonuses!! whatever that means). I think it is fair to say there aren't many jobs in the private sector that would pay someone who is over 30staff (at least!) (and then 700 odd students and parents)/ plus managing the budget for wages, assigning roles and different rosters year in year out for every teacher/class group. Fighting off potential legal cases that could destroy any school etc.

Anyways I'm out of this thread, folk are trying to treat the Public Service like a private company which makes a profit (and can fold at any stage). I've more than paid my share for PRIVATE SECTOR debt (oh but we all partied didn't we!). I've kept my end of the bargain and then some, to the best of my knowledge it isn't a pay rise, it's a pay restoration under an agreement. I accept that the T&C of extra workload will never be rescinded when FEMPI is finished, and that pay terms won't be reinstated all in one go. That's fair enough I think.

But if you want to be a dog in a manger the least you could do is to eat the hay. So why don't you come over and join us in the public sector, the grass is obviously greener, you'd be a fool to stay where you are going by your own 'gravy train' logic.

All great and all but principals do not have any say in the curriculum that a teacher teaches nor do they have a say in what remuneration a teacher receives. Most of what happens in school is dictated to by Dept. of Education guidelines and regulations. The principal is primarily there to make sure these guidelines are followed and to keep track of things, report to the board of management and make sure the dept. is happy if/when inspectors are called out. Middle management it is, nothing more nothing less.

The Backwards Man

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The election won't but itself you know.

No one knows what it's like to be the bad man

Arsemageddon

silverfeather wrote: »

There would be more striking I would bet if they had not restored pay.

There's been feck all strikes by the public/civil service so far. This just about trying to buy votes, Bertie style.

jank

So that is a few hundred more million, per year every year of the budget wasted for no improvement on actual services, productivity or badly needed reforms for a more cost effective and efficient PS. Make no mistake about it, this is Labour's doing. The tax payer as per usual gets shafted.

joe swanson

Proper order. But its not enough. Only a full restoration of pay should be accepted.

doulikeit

Restoring pay is a "windfall"

ardmacha

Irish GDP is going to reach peak levels later this year. This being the case what is the justification for continuing emergency legislation for paycuts when there is no emergency. If debt is high or services need to be improved that is a matter for all citizens, not just those who work in the PS.

iba

jank wrote: »

So that is a few hundred more million, per year every year of the budget wasted for no improvement on actual services, productivity or badly needed reforms for a more cost effective and efficient PS. Make no mistake about it, this is Labour's doing. The tax payer as per usual gets shafted.

I hope that weather is nice in Australia this time of year

Do Public Servants not pay tax?

Can you substantiate your statement with facts that the PS has not improved in recent years, that productivity has not increased and is not not more cost effective and efficient?

In recent years PS have taken huge pay cuts. Have had the workforce reduced by tens of thousands. Had there work load increased immensely. And had their work week increased by two and a half hours.

tails_naf

iba wrote: »

I hope that weather is nice in Australia this time of year

Do Public Servants not pay tax?

Can you substantiate your statement with facts that the PS has not improved in recent years, that productivity has not increased and is not not more cost effective and efficient?

In recent years PS have taken huge pay cuts. Have had the workforce reduced by tens of thousands. Had there work load increased immensely. And had their work week increased by two and a half hours.

Can you substantiate your statement that productivity has improved?

Hospital waiting lists and people on trollies are way worse as a % than cuts to medical spending.

iba

tails_naf wrote: »

Can you substantiate your statement that productivity has improved?

Hospital waiting lists and people on trollies are way worse as a % than cuts to medical spending.

I did not state that 'productivity has improved?'

tails_naf

iba wrote: »

I did not state that 'productivity has improved?'

Well if not productivity, then what were you referring to when you said the PS has improved ?

ezra_pound

As has been discussed as nauseum already, the fempi PS cuts no longer stand up in law and have to be unwound. The government have two choices:
1 do nothing and wait for unions to get them all immediately reversed in one move

Or
2 cooperate with unions and slowly reverse the cuts.

Luckily they're opting for option 2.

iba

tails_naf wrote: »

Well if not productivity, then what were you referring to when you said the PS has improved ?

I did not say '.....PS has improved'

Cee-Jay-Cee

STFU!! €800 is not a feckin windfall when you factor in 52% tax/PRSI/USC, it's €8 a week, woopdee****ingdoo! My health insurance is set to rise by the same amount so I'm no better off.

SEPT 23 1989

Nothing learned

seamus

Their pay is not being "restored" it is being "increased".

Boom_Bap

Public Sector pay threads merged

iba

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

STFU!! €800 is not a feckin windfall when you factor in 52% tax/PRSI/USC, it's €8 a week, woopdee****ingdoo! My health insurance is set to rise by the same amount so I'm no better off.

And I believe it is the first increase that they have had in 7 or 8 years. And is still way below what salary they were getting before all the pay cuts they took.

Larbre34

ezra_pound wrote: »

As has been discussed as nauseum already, the fempi PS cuts no longer stand up in law and have to be unwound. The government have two choices:
1 do nothing and wait for unions to get them all immediately reversed in one move

Or
2 cooperate with unions and slowly reverse the cuts.

Luckily they're opting for option 2.

You assume there'll be agreement. Major scent of blood in the water now from a wounded Government, the Unions just have to remain aloof.

kippy

Larbre34 wrote: »

You assume there'll be agreement. Major scent of blood in the water now from a wounded Government, the Unions just have to remain aloof.

It's not in the unions interests to destabilise further this current government or indeed push for too much too soon.

Tiger Mcilroy

iba wrote: »

And I believe it is the first increase that they have had in 7 or 8 years. And is still way below what salary they were getting before all the pay cuts they took.

Are you including the increments that are still being paid based on an inherently flawed performance management system?

Its been admitted that there is no desire to correct this particularly sneaky practice of awarding the increments when no real improvement or KPI has been hit.

ezra_pound

Larbre34 wrote: »

You assume there'll be agreement. Major scent of blood in the water now from a wounded Government, the Unions just have to remain aloof.

A full reversal would cost about e2 billion. The unions know that this would be rash and could jeopardise the rare of current recovery. It's in everyone's interest that a slow reversal is agreed if at all possible.

relax carry on

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

STFU!! €800 is not a feckin windfall when you factor in 52% tax/PRSI/USC, it's €8 a week, woopdee****ingdoo! My health insurance is set to rise by the same amount so I'm no better off.

You forgot the mandatory pension contributions.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Their pay is not being "restored" it is being "increased".

It's being restored, why are a few beating this silly drum of it being increased when it's only moving back in the direction of where it should be (and not being restored by anywhere near enough either). Even the government themselves signed up to a pay restoration in future when the cuts were being made so calling it a rise is just looking to stir the s*it.

not yet

tails_naf wrote: »

Can you substantiate your statement that productivity has improved?

Hospital waiting lists and people on trollies are way worse as a % than cuts to medical spending.

By virtue of the fact that 50,000 people have left the PS in 8 years without being replace has to lead to increased productivity...

By default alone.

not yet

seamus wrote: »

Their pay is not being "restored" it is being "increased".

Tripe..

bjork

Great, will they be more productive now?

or just same old, same old, whinge about no resources and staff shortages, whinge,

kippy

bjork wrote: »

Great, will they be more productive now?

or just same old, same old, whinge about no resources and staff shortages, whinge,

Lets get this straight, and I do agree with actual performance based pay reviews and raises however this argument about people having to be "more productive" to justify a pay increase is complete and utter nonsense in a lot of cases.

Salaries across the board/world have risen substantially over the years - are people more productive to justify these raises? And this is an overall question.

And again, I don't disagree portions of pay increases need to be linked to some level of performance indicator if possible but pay is not always linked to productiveness.

I'd suggest nurses in the public sector are "more productive" and indeed "Gardai" as well, possible teachers as well, if you are to measure productivity in terms of "people seen". Indeed if you are to measure productivity on the really basic scale of staff numbers to population levels ratio, I'd hazard a guess that overall productivity has improved as there are less staff doing the same or more work than there were in 2008.

bjork

kippy wrote: »

Lets get this straight, and I do agree with actual performance based pay reviews and raises however this argument about people having to be "more productive" to justify a pay increase is complete and utter nonsense in a lot of cases.

Salaries across the board/world have risen substantially over the years - are people more productive to justify these raises? And this is an overall question.

And again, I don't disagree portions of pay increases need to be linked to some level of performance indicator if possible but pay is not always linked to productiveness.

I'd suggest nurses in the public sector are "more productive" and indeed "Gardai" as well, possible teachers as well, if you are to measure productivity in terms of "people seen". Indeed if you are to measure productivity on the really basic scale of staff numbers to population levels ratio, I'd hazard a guess that overall productivity has improved as there are less staff doing the same or more work than there were in 2008.

So it's just the same ould whinge then, carry on

seamus

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

It's being restored, why are a few beating this silly drum of it being increased when it's only moving back in the direction of where it should be (and not being restored by anywhere near enough either).

"Where it should be".

This is exactly the reason why "restoration" is the wrong word. It implies an entitlement to the higher pay and that the public sector were somehow wronged by the decrease.

They weren't. Public sector wages reasonably decreased in line with a recession and deflation in the economy. And now they're increasing again in line with a prospering economy and improved public finances.

A "restoration" would imply that the public sector had their wages garnished while the rest of the economy continued off on the same path.

This is a pay increase for the public sector. Be happy about it rather than thinking about it as "restoration". You haven't been wronged.

bjork

What is the definition of a payrise?

An increment is not a payrise
"restoring" pay is not a payrise


What is a payrise?

kippy

bjork wrote: »

So it's just the same ould whinge then, carry on

Avoid the points made.

Not going to engage with you again.