Public sector pay increase

kupus

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It's quite simple really: You cut the money going to public services, as has been happening the past number of years, you get worse quality service. Want better quality public services? Send more money to the public services.

I'd rather see all the money being put into a huge bundle and lit up for bonfires night.
At least then people would have some form of payback in the form of heat and a bit of entertainment for the night instead of endless money pit that the ps is.
Useless good for nothing workshy hypocrites is all they are. And that's me putting it mildly.

KomradeBishop

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Thank you for that insight Komrade but I'm more aware of what I'm arguing for than you are.

It's more about how credible your claim is about what you're arguing for - given past posts, I'm not convinced that your argument is anything other than an indirect one in general support of privatization, and bigging up the private sector while playing down the public sector.

KomradeBishop

kupus wrote: »

I'd rather see all the money being put into a huge bundle and lit up for bonfires night.
At least then people would have some form of payback in the form of heat and a bit of entertainment for the night instead of endless money pit that the ps is.
Useless good for nothing workshy hypocrites is all they are. And that's me putting it mildly.

Great so lets throw the baby out with the bathwater - withhold money from, defund, get rid of all the public services, rather than root out the workers who take this piss - great.

mad m

To Elland Back wrote: »

Total nonsense. Giving more money to a lazy inefficient worker, who cannot be fired,

How do you know they can't be fired? I know at least 5 have been let go in Public Sector in the last few years. And by looks of it another has one foot out door.

ShoulderChip

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Great so lets throw the baby out with the bathwater - withhold money from, defund, get rid of all the public services, rather than root out the workers who take this piss - great.

would that include getting rid of the tax on plastic bags?

Jawgap

To Elland Back wrote: »

Total nonsense. Giving more money to a lazy inefficient worker, who cannot be fired, is not going improve public services.

Give every PS worker a pay increase and make individuals accountable with the prospect of redundancy for under performance. That's the way

Ok, how do you measure performance?

Is the teacher who turns out A students better than the one who takes a failing student and turns them into a solid D or C student?

Are the Guards in the centre of Dublin better than the Guards in Achill because they have more arrests?

What about ED staff? What's their metrics? Or ATCOs? Or the Coastguard?

Iwasfrozen

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It's more about how credible your claim is about what you're arguing for - given past posts, I'm not convinced that your argument is anything other than an indirect one in general support of privatization, and bigging up the private sector while playing down the public sector.

Then remain unconvinced, I don't have the inclination to change your mind.

KomradeBishop

ShoulderChip wrote: »

would that include getting rid of the tax on plastic bags?

Mmm? Sure, yes - lets be rid of this tyrannical plastic bag tax, inflating bloated/lazy public sector wages - free plastic bags for all :pac:

ShoulderChip

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Mmm? Sure, yes - lets be rid of this tyrannical plastic bag tax, inflating bloated/lazy public sector wages - free plastic bags for all :pac:

whoop

lets burn this house down, and eventually die in the toxic fumes.

Jawgap

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Continious assesments, constant grading on various aspects of their work, if a fireman is late for a drill it goes on his record. If a nurse doesn't organize his files correctly it goes on his record.

So process oriented performance measures?

There's an old expression - what gets measured is what gets done. If being punctual for parades or file organisation are the metrics people will focus on those, to the detriment of other things.

In medicine for example, measuring performance using fatal outcomes encourages doctors to not take on difficult cases, just as litigation encourages the practice of defensive medicine.

The copper who is assessed on his clear up rate will focus on the easy cases, not the difficult ones.

To Elland Back

Jawgap wrote: »

Ok, how do you measure performance?

Is the teacher who turns out A students better than the one who takes a failing student and turns them into a solid D or C student?

Are the Guards in the centre of Dublin better than the Guards in Achill because they have more arrests?

What about ED staff? What's their metrics? Or ATCOs? Or the Coastguard?

The very fact that you have to ask those questions tells me you have no experience of what private sector workers face on a daily basis.

Every function has a standard which is deemed acceptable, fail to meet it and face the consequences

Iwasfrozen

Jawgap wrote: »

Ok, how do you measure performance?

Is the teacher who turns out A students better than the one who takes a failing student and turns them into a solid D or C student?

Are the Guards in the centre of Dublin better than the Guards in Achill because they have more arrests?

What about ED staff? What's their metrics? Or ATCOs? Or the Coastguard?

Performance would be based on organization, preparation for the job and mandatory continuous training that would be graded.

To Elland Back

mad m wrote: »

How do you know they can't be fired? I know at least 5 have been let go in Public Sector in the last few years. And by looks of it another has one foot out door.

For under performance? I doubt it.

ShoulderChip

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Performance would be based on organization, preparation for the job and mandatory continuous training that would be graded.

the first two sound pretty qualative and the third one is pretty assanine

kupus

Root out the workers who take the piss are you kidding?

They are so protected by those fcuking pyramid scheme shyster unions that they are nearly impossible to remove.

If all the workshy ps were to be kicked out. My respect for them would increase by 100%. anyway I'm off now to go looking for a pot of gold under the rainbow.

Jawgap

To Elland Back wrote: »

The very fact that you have to ask those questions tells me you have no experience of what private sector workers face on a daily basis.

Every function has a standard which is deemed acceptable, fail to meet it and face the consequences

Actually I do.

I work in the private sector for a UK firm. My (and my team's) metrics are pretty clear because the objective is to stay solvent and turn a profit.

When the objective is Public Service and maintaining a contingent capacity for demand led services it becomes problematic to come up with metrics that don't skew the system or lead to perverse outcomes.

To Elland Back

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually I do.

I work in the private sector for a UK firm. My (and my team's) metrics are pretty clear because the objective is to stay solvent and turn a profit.

When the objective is Public Service and maintaining a contingent capacity for demand led services it becomes problematic to come up with metrics that don't skew the system or lead to perverse outcomes.

You lost me on metrics

Iwasfrozen

Jawgap wrote: »

So process oriented performance measures?

There's an old expression - what gets measured is what gets done. If being punctual for parades or file organisation are the metrics people will focus on those, to the detriment of other things.

In medicine for example, measuring performance using fatal outcomes encourages doctors to not take on difficult cases, just as litigation encourages the practice of defensive medicine.

The copper who is assessed on his clear up rate will focus on the easy cases, not the difficult ones.

With regards to firemen I'm talking abour drills, not parades.

Performance measures for each profession would be set by senior workers in that profession. They have a better understanding of the job than we do.

In the mean time the wage freeze should remain in place, the ban on recruitment should be immediately lifted, entry level positions should be given a large pay rise, paid for by cuts to senior staff who were protected under previous agreements and all future pensions should be cut.

If the unions cause to much trouble they should be disbanded, their assets liquidated and given back to their members.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Public sector workers don't deserve a pay increase, yes their wages have been on a freeze since 2007 for very good reasons but public sector wages are still higher than their private sector counterparts.

What utter horse sh*t! Can you name the private sector counterpart for the following jobs:

Nurses
Gardai
Teachers
Army
Fire service
Prison officers

There is no private sector counterpart for them and they make up a huge percentage of the public sector.

What profession are you in and what are the wage differentials between yours and public service equivalent? Why didn't you join the public service if your own job is so poorly paid? Why did you chose that job? Were you not qualified enough to join the public service???

HamsterFace

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I've heard this arguement before but in the public sector you can have teachers with ordinary degrees earning 60k. In what private sector industry could a person with a BA earn 60k with experience alone?

It's madness, imagine how more efficient the public sector would be if it were de-unionized.

A teacher might make that kind of money towards the end of their careers. Nothing wrong with increments, they're actually a necessity for families who don't get any social welfare and who might want to educate their family.

These threads seem to have a lot of young posters who have issues with others earning more than them regardless of what level in their career they are because said posters consider themselves more educated.

They are, however, infinitely more naive. I'm private sector by the way and I'd be horrified if my pay was frozen, unconditionally, for 7 years.

ShoulderChip

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

More asinine than me having to give grinds to clean up after a local teacher who hasn't finished the leaving cert curriculum?

yes on the bigger scale of things, those stupid courses cost 1k per participant a day even for ridiculous topics like how to use Microsoft word, teachers like the ones you mentioned are not going to learn anything from them, and may well be clever enough to get good marks in them to be rewarded, are in no way a reflection on commitment or passion.

Iwasfrozen

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

What utter horse sh*t! Can you name the private sector counterpart for the following jobs:

Nurses
Gardai
Teachers
Army
Fire service
Prison officers

There is no private sector counterpart for them and they make up a huge percentage of the public sector.

There is huge demand to join all of those organizations but wages are kept high by means of a recruitment freeze.

Iwasfrozen

HamsterFace wrote: »

A teacher might make that kind of money towards the end of their careers. Nothing wrong with increments, they're actually a necessity for families who don't get any social welfare and who might want to educate their family.

These threads seem to have a lot of young posters who have issues with others earning more than them regardless of what level in their career they are because said posters consider themselves more educated.

They are, however, infinitely more naive. I'm private sector by the way and I'd be horrified if my pay was frozen, unconditionally, for 7 years.

What about people who don't get 60k who might want to educate their families?

I have no problem with people earning more than me, obviously there are people in my job earning more than me. What I don't like are senior teachers earning 60k for doing the same or less than junior teachers for 30k.

In my company, the people who earn more than me have a much harder job. With more stress and always on the line, they deserve more money.

Jawgap

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There is huge demand to join all of those organizations but wages are kept high by means of a recruitment freeze.

Newly qualified Guards and nurses are on criminally low wages.

And as for soldiers! The pay they're offered should shame the country, especially as when things go seriously t1ts up these are the people called out to deal with all kinds of emergencies the civil powers can't handle.

Iwasfrozen

Jawgap wrote: »

Newly qualified Guards and nurses are on criminally low wages.

And as for soldiers! The pay they're offered should shame the country, especially as when things go seriously t1ts up these are the people called out to deal with all kinds of emergencies the civil powers can't handle.

I agree, and why are entry level wages low? Because unions threw future entrants under the bus to protect existing members.

Santa Cruz

Icaras wrote: »

Still don't deserve it

Of course the private sector are so efficient and competitive!
Thank God for the Poles etc at least we can get house maintrnance done at the right price not like that charged by the robbing bastards from our own country. Public servants spend money too

Letree

A 2% payrise.. absolutely outrageous. So what if they were cut 14% on average and haven't had a payrise in 7 or 8 years. Who do they think they are looking for 2% rise??

Halloween Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What about people who don't get 60k who might want to educate their families?

I have no problem with people earning more than me, obviously there are people in my job earning more than me. What I don't like are senior teachers earning 60k for doing the same or less than junior teachers for 30k.

In my company, the people who earn more than me have a much harder job. With more stress and always on the line, they deserve more money.

Those senior teachers were junior teachers too at one stage. I would have thought salary scales were pretty common across all manner of employment types. I certainly know many, many people in the private sector who get incremental salary increases based on length of service and performance reviews.

What exactly are you suggesting, that all teachers be paid an identical wage, ie their starting wage and never receive an increase?

Stheno

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I've heard this arguement before but in the public sector you can have teachers with ordinary degrees earning 60k. In what private sector industry could a person with a BA earn 60k with experience alone?

It's madness, imagine how more efficient the public sector would be if it were de-unionized.

I know a fair few people on plenty more than 60k with just a leaving cert in the private sector

Off the top of my head I can think of ten

Halloween Jack

Stheno wrote: »

I know a fair few people on plenty more than 60k with just a leaving cert in the private sector

Off the top of my head I can think of ten

Aye, the deeper you go in a given career the less relevant your qualifications become and the more important experience becomes.

Stheno

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Aye, the deeper you go in a given career the less relevant your qualifications become and the more important experience becomes.

Yep on all the cases I am thinking of, industry relevant qualifications and experience trump a degree

endacl

As a public sector employee, yay!

On the other hand, I'm also self employed. Down with this sorta thing. :mad:

I'm going to have to spend a little time wondering how I feel about this. Am I a waste of space, or a captain of industry...?

Edit: Bollix. Just remembered I'm also entitled to the artist's exemption. I don't know up from down at the moment...

Stheno

endacl wrote: »

As a public sector employee, yay!

On the other hand, I'm also self employed. Down with this sorta thing. :mad:

I'm going to have to spend a little time wondering how I feel about this. Am I a waste of space, or a captain of industry...?

Edit: Bollix. Just remembered I'm also entitled to the artist's exemption. I don't know up from down at the moment...

If you're self employed then are you not a contractor and therefore not an employee?

Or are you self employed in another role?

endacl

Stheno wrote: »

If you're self employed then are you not a contractor and therefore not an employee?

Or are you self employed in another role?

Another field entirely.

Fiskar

Letree wrote: »

A 2% payrise.. absolutely outrageous. So what if they were cut 14% on average and haven't had a payrise in 7 or 8 years. Who do they think they are looking for 2% rise??

Turn that on its head and let say that you are talking about someone in the private sector. Would you then think that is fair?

This public versus private attitude is what sucks.

Stheno

endacl wrote: »

Another field entirely.

Thanks apologies if I was overly nosey

endacl

Stheno wrote: »

Thanks apologies if I was overly nosey

Not at all. Ask away!

Letree

Fiskar wrote: »

Turn that on its head and let say that you are talking about someone in the private sector. Would you then think that is fair?

This public versus private attitude is what sucks.

I fully support a payrise for Public Servants as i am one.

blackcard

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Of course the private sector are so efficient and competitive!
Thank God for the Poles etc at least we can get house maintrnance done at the right price not like that charged by the robbing bastards from our own country. Public servants spend money too

There are some private sector workers who built poor standard houses, the workers in shops who talk to each other when you want to be served, the bankers, auctioneers, estate agents, solicitors, union leaders - they are private sector - mechanics who provide poor service, etc. I know they can be let go but most are not. There are poor workers in both sectors

stimpson

blackcard wrote: »

There are some private sector workers who built poor standard houses, the workers in shops who talk to each other when you want to be served, the bankers, auctioneers, estate agents, solicitors, union leaders - they are private sector - mechanics who provide poor service, etc. I know they can be let go but most are not. There are poor workers in both sectors

However, none of them are paid from your tax euros.

Let's put the money towards income tax cuts that everyone can benefit from.

Iwasfrozen

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Those senior teachers were junior teachers too at one stage. I would have thought salary scales were pretty common across all manner of employment types. I certainly know many, many people in the private sector who get incremental salary increases based on length of service and performance reviews.

What exactly are you suggesting, that all teachers be paid an identical wage, ie their starting wage and never receive an increase?

No. I'm suggesting we cap teacher's wages at a sensible level. 45-50k base seems fair to me with 30k starting salary.

Of course the Unions would threaten havoc but I would be in favor of de-unionising the sector.

Letree

Public sector unions should get to work now, looking for a reduction of the pension levy, a reduction of the USC, a return of the extra hours worked and a return of the annual reductions brought in through FEMPI. Public servants weren't found wanting during the recession. Now they are owed something back.

as_mo_bhosca

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No. I'm suggesting we cap teacher's wages at a sensible level. 45-50k base seems fair to me with 30k starting salary.

Of course the Unions would threaten havoc but I would be in favor of de-unionising the sector.

Yeah, 'cause that's a way to attract people to the profession!

Iwasfrozen

as_mo_bhosca wrote: »

Yeah, 'cause that's a way to attract people to the profession!

There is an over supply of teachers atm. We don't need to attract more people to that sector.

Letree wrote: »

Public sector unions should get to work now, looking for a reduction of the pension levy, a reduction of the USC, a return of the extra hours worked and a return of the annual reductions brought in through FEMPI. Public servants weren't found wanting during the recession. Now they are owed something back.

lol, I admire your honesty. Most public sector employees try to hide their greed.

smurgen

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

What utter horse sh*t! Can you name the private sector counterpart for the following jobs:

Nurses
Gardai
Teachers
Army
Fire service
Prison officers

There is no private sector counterpart for them and they make up a huge percentage of the public sector.

What profession are you in and what are the wage differentials between yours and public service equivalent? Why didn't you join the public service if your own job is so poorly paid? Why did you chose that job? Were you not qualified enough to join the public service???

There are plenty of ps teachers.also as regards job security. I live with a group of teachers.they have a teacher on their staff who has turned up to school drunk on numerous occasions.any time he has been pulled on it he plays the depression card.anytime there is a strike he's the first one two the picket like.it makes my blood boil.he also has left comments re drug use on his own Facebook profile.if he was a private sector worker he'd have been fired 10 times over.he doesn't look to be getting fired anytime soon I'm hearing the same stories about him the last 5 years or so.

Larbre34

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No. I'm suggesting we cap teacher's wages at a sensible level. 45-50k base seems fair to me with 30k starting salary.

Of course the Unions would threaten havoc but I would be in favor of de-unionising the sector.

So would the current Minister for Education, ironically. However it wont happen. The unions are as much active on protecting standards from a race to the bottom as they are about pay.

mikemac1

Public sector unions are pretty useless if they are bargaining for a 2% pay rise.

Members have paid vastly more than that in subs in the past several years and for what?

Letree

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

lol, I admire your honesty. Most public sector employees try to hide their greed.

Hardy greed when the end result would mean we would still be relatively worse off than we were in 2007. We are only looking to get back some of the things taken off us during the downturn. Circumstances are improving and look like continuing to improve so what is wrong with looking for ours terms and conditions to improve too.

There are plenty of people out there like yourself who would be happy for the PS to remain on the same pay levels for another 20 years and would complain if we got 1% increase then.

Iwasfrozen

Larbre34 wrote: »

So would the current Minister for Education, ironically. However it wont happen. The unions are as much active on protecting standards from a race to the bottom as they are about pay.

Unfortunately not, the government will never stand up to the unions and people / services will suffer as a result.

Halloween Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No. I'm suggesting we cap teacher's wages at a sensible level. 45-50k base seems fair to me with 30k starting salary.

Of course the Unions would threaten havoc but I would be in favor of de-unionising the sector.

So 45-50k is a sensible level on what grounds? Or did you pluck it out of thin air?