Public sector pay increase

Dozen Wicked Words

darkpagandeath wrote: »

It's amazing as soon as job is in the public sector all work becomes intangible and unquantifiable. Amazing that is.

You can bluster all you like, Im asking about nursing, its amazing you don't know there are nurses, large numbers of them, in the private sector too, the question is the same, how do you quantify what makes a good bad or indifferent nurse. I haven't read anything that suggests its as easy as you make out to judge or come up with a criteria to decide. Some things in some professions ARE intangible, I couldn't give a f*ck what sector they are in. It just doesn't fit your narrative.

bjork

mickydoomsux wrote: »

What if the students are unteachable thickos ?

Should we still cut the teachers pay?

All of them?
30 unteachable thickos in the one class?
No one learning anything in the classroom at all?


What the feck are they doing there?

mickydoomsux

If even 51% of them are thick then it would reflect poorly on the teacher in a results based situation.

bjork

mickydoomsux wrote: »

If even 51% of them are thick then it would reflect poorly on the teacher in a results based situation.

It doesn't matter if they are thick. A child going from a E to a D is learning. A E student staying at the entire year at E is not.


A child knowing more at the end of a lesson than they did at the start is learning.


The only way it reflects badly on the teacher is if they are not providing the right learning opportunities for the children >>Which is what they are trained to do

or if their behavior management is poor

Otherwise it's the child's responsibility

Dozen Wicked Words

omega man wrote: »

I wasn't even comparing them to co pilots! It was the example you provided so I used the co pilot captain relationship to demonstrate the importance of being able to question a captains decision. It's what co pilots are trained to do. I think comparing nurses to co pilots would be very kind to nurses if I'm honest!

Yep most nurses wouldn't have a clue how to fly a plane or how to put up with smug sounding condescending pricks of pilots either. Not you of course, I'm sure you're not a smug prick.

darkpagandeath

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

You can bluster all you like, Im asking about nursing, its amazing you don't know there are nurses, large numbers of them, in the private sector too, the question is the same, how do you quantify what makes a good bad or indifferent nurse. I haven't read anything that suggests its as easy as you make out to judge or come up with a criteria to decide. Some things in some professions ARE intangible, I couldn't give a f*ck what sector they are in. It just doesn't fit your narrative.

What narrative would that be then ? I'm not the one saying it "Can't be done".

darkpagandeath

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Yep most nurses wouldn't have a clue how to fly a plane or how to put up with smug sounding condescending pricks of pilots either. Not you of course, I'm sure you're not a smug prick.

:pac::pac::pac:

Dozen Wicked Words

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What narrative would that be then ? I'm not the one saying it "Can't be done".

Don't think I'm long for this thread. No, you are correct, that was some old sh*te I'd started to type but thought I'd written enough, meant to delete that line.

darkpagandeath

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Don't think I'm long for this thread. No, you are correct, that was some old sh*te I'd started to type but thought I'd written enough, meant to delete that line.

Happens to the best of us.

Jawgap

bjork wrote: »

The ones who's students show individual progress.

Nothing to do with whether they get As, Bs or C's

Well it shouldn't be about grades but it is. You only have to look at the pressure put on kids to get points and not 'waste' points. As long as that kind of thinking is central to our education system, teaching and school performance will be measured by grades, points and students progressing to third level.

Jawgap

bjork wrote: »

It doesn't matter if they are thick. A child going from a E to a D is learning. A E student staying at the entire year at E is not.


A child knowing more at the end of a lesson than they did at the start is learning.


The only way it reflects badly on the teacher is if they are not providing the right learning opportunities for the children >>Which is what they are trained to do

or if their behavior management is poor

Otherwise it's the child's responsibility

Not necessarily - education and exams here prize rote learning. A kid may know more at the end of a lesson, but not have the first clue about the significance of Egan they know and how it relates to other aspects of the curriculum.

bjork

Jawgap wrote: »

Well it shouldn't be about grades but it is. You only have to look at the pressure put on kids to get points and not 'waste' points. As long as that kind of thinking is central to our education system, teaching and school performance will be measured by grades, points and students progressing to third level.

And that's all well and good if teachers have no role in the students getting grades points and progressing to third level.

But seen as they do, why isn't their contribution measured?

bjork

Jawgap wrote: »

Not necessarily - education and exams here prize rote learning. A kid may know more at the end of a lesson, but not have the first clue about the significance of Egan they know and how it relates to other aspects of the curriculum.

Last I heard it was the only teachers objecting to changing the exams


A good teacher would highlight cross curricular links

Jawgap

bjork wrote: »

And that's all well and good if teachers have no role in the students getting grades points and progressing to third level.

But seen as they do, why isn't their contribution measured?

Because again, who is the better teacher the one who gets a few gifted students top marks or the one who stops an at risk student failing and quitting school and full time education at an early age?

darkpagandeath

bjork wrote: »

Last I heard it was the only teachers objecting to changing the exams


A good teacher would highlight cross curricular links

Careful now, Next you are saying teachers don't want to be mostly responsible for the students ability to grasp the material and be tested on it.

bjork

Jawgap wrote: »

Because again, who is the better teacher the one who gets a few gifted students top marks or the one who stops an at risk student failing and quitting school and full time education at an early age?

You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with the students being gifted or otherwise.

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Because again, who is the better teacher the one who gets a few gifted students top marks or the one who stops an at risk student failing and quitting school and full time education at an early age?

This is not the 1930s where would they get a job with no education ? Who even leave school now at 16 ?

Jawgap

bjork wrote: »

Last I heard it was the only teachers objecting to changing the exams


A good teacher would highlight cross curricular links

Again, rote learning, spoon fed by the teacher.

I'd say a good teacher would imbue the student with the critical thinking skills that would allow them to make cross curricular links on their own. But that teacher would suffer because time spent on that would not be time spent on the curriculum.

Jawgap

bjork wrote: »

You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with the students being gifted or otherwise.

In the real world it has - how would incentivise a teacher to work with struggling kids rather than look for an excuse to dump them or pass them on to someone else?

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Again, rote learning, spoon fed by the teacher.

I'd say a good teacher would imbue the student with the critical thinking skills that would allow them to make cross curricular links on their own. But that teacher would suffer because time spent on that would not be time spent on the curriculum.

I was amazed when I Came to Ireland, That the teachers basically teach you how to pass the JC and LC. It's not about understanding the material it's about how you remember what questions are lightly to come up and have the correct answers for that.

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

This is not the 1930s where would they get a job with no education ? Who even leave school now at 16 ?

Not many, but it's not unheard of - Traveller and immigrant communities have lower rates of children finishing out full time education than other groups.

bjork

Jawgap wrote: »

In the real world it has - how would incentivise a teacher to work with struggling kids rather than look for an excuse to dump them or pass them on to someone else?

A gifted student will achieve in spite of the teacher



Are you denying a child even moving from an F to an E is learning?


They are not cut out to be a teacher if at the first sign of work they look to dump their students elsewhere. The profession is probably better without them in it

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I was amazed when I Came to Ireland, That the teachers basically teach you how to pass the JC and LC. It's not about understanding the material it's about how you remember what questions are lightly to come up and have the correct answers for that.

Not all teachers are like that. I went to a Christian Brothers school, and one of the older brothers was very much a classicist and taught us in that mould. At the time I thought it was the greatest waste of time but looking back I wished he taught us more of the classic liberal arts.

He also made us learn Latin - again I thought it was a compete waste of time, until I went on to study law

Jawgap

bjork wrote: »

A gifted student will achieve in spite of the teacher

Of course he/she will and if you're a teacher undergoing performance assessment they're the students you'll seek out, especially if a portion of your salary depends on it. Everybody else, you'll try and shunt on to some other poor schmuck.

bjork wrote: »

Are you denying a child even moving from an F to an E is learning?

Farm from it. I'm saying that in second level it represents a type of learning that is effectively useless in the real world.

bjork wrote: »

They are not cut out to be a teacher if at the first sign of work they look to dump their students elsewhere. The profession is probably better without them in it

That's human nature. The old expression of 'what gets measured is what gets done' very much applies if you tell someone their salary and/or job depends on a set of metrics. You can be damn sure they are going to maximise the score on those metrics.

bjork

Jawgap wrote: »

Of course he/she will and if you're a teacher undergoing performance assessment they're the students you'll seek out, especially if a portion of your salary depends on it. Everybody else, you'll try and shunt on to some other poor schmuck.

Why would you seek them out? The assessment isn't how many A students do you have?

Jawgap wrote: »

Farm from it. I'm saying that in second level it represents a type of learning that is effectively useless in the real world.

Is this a curriculum issue? I'm not sure what else you mean.

Jawgap wrote: »

That's human nature. The old expression of 'what gets measured is what gets done' very much applies if you tell someone their salary and/or job depends on a set of metrics. You can be damn sure they are going to maximise the score on those metrics.

So they'll work better if they are measured?>>Seems about right

Jawgap

bjork wrote: »

Why would you seek them out? The assessment isn't how many A students do you have?



Is this a curriculum issue? I'm not sure what else you mean.




So they'll work better if they are measured?>>Seems about right

I'm saying if an exam score is based on your ability to produce a standard solution then grades that reflect that ability are indicative of your recall ability, not your critical thinking, rhetorical or logical skills.

People being measured worked 'better' when assessed according the metrics being used. Whether this is actually 'better' will always be open to debate and conjecture.

An extreme example to be sure, but according to all the metrics applied by the US Army during the Viet Nam War they were winning.......right up until they lost.

Vizzy

skittles8710 wrote: »

Please give an example of a Bank Exec remaining their position from the boom to date.. They were quietly moved on (albeit with nice packages ) due to their noted failures.

Richie Boucher ??? (promoted in fact)

bjork

Jawgap wrote: »

a)I'm saying if an exam score is based on your ability to produce a standard solution then grades that reflect that ability are indicative of your recall ability, not your critical thinking, rhetorical or logical skills.

b)People being measured worked 'better' when assessed according the metrics being used. Whether this is actually 'better' will always be open to debate and conjecture.

c)An extreme example to be sure, but according to all the metrics applied by the US Army during the Viet Nam War they were winning.......right up until they lost.

a)Yes, the focus is too heavy on exam scores. Teachers refuse to change this, as we have seen. Still teachers have to perform.


b)Parameters can be set to be measured against hence keep them on track to ensure work is "better"
What makes a good teacher
What makes a great teacher




c)Who looses? If the students are learning is that not the point of school? If this is occurring and evident is everyone not winning? If it is not happening and examination of why and action taken.

(Are you the guy who said the lads would be good ones to have in the foxhole with you for back up? :pac:)

Jawgap

bjork wrote: »

Too heavy focused on exam scores. Teachers refuse to change this, as we have seen.


Parameters can be set to be measured against hence keep them on track to ensure work is "better"
What makes a good teacher
What makes a great teacher




Who looses? If the students are learning is that not the point of school? If this is occurring and evident is everyone not winning? If it is not happening and examination of why and action taken.

(Are you the guy who said the lads would be good ones to have in the foxhole with you for back up? :pac:)

I'm sure what any of that means

bjork

Jawgap wrote: »

I'm sure what any of that means

I edited it a bit to make it clearer

Jawgap

Yes, the system is too heavily focused on exam performance, and yes the teachers are blocking progress, but here's a radical idea, why don't we elect the politicians with the cojones to take on the teachers' unions - they're only doing it because they can get away with it.

What parameters did you have in mind?

The students lose - it took me about 2 years of third level education outside Ireland to purge myself of it's taint.

bjork

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, the system is too heavily focused on exam performance, and yes the teachers are blocking progress, but here's a radical idea, why don't we elect the politicians with the cojones to take on the teachers' unions - they're only doing it because they can get away with it.

What parameters did you have in mind?

The students lose - it took me about 2 years of third level education outside Ireland to purge myself of it's taint.

We have to wait until an election and even then it's doubtful they'll get the person with the balls.


The only way the teachers union will downfall is when it implodes on itself. It has already isolated younger and newer entrants while failing to address any real issues.

You tell me what makes a good teacher, I'll tell you the parameters

So they're already losing. What else is too lose by trying a different approach?

The curriculum etc is nothing to do with how the individual performs. That's the content, not their performance and is a separate issue.

omega man

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Yep most nurses wouldn't have a clue how to fly a plane or how to put up with smug sounding condescending pricks of pilots either. Not you of course, I'm sure you're not a smug prick.

Sounds like you were inferring that if I'm being honest....

What has nurses flying planes got to do with anything? Now I'm confused.

My example was meant as a similar scenario of a working relationship with a similar line of authority which occurs in my industry. How you got to your above conclusion is baffling.

myshirt

Would they ever stop calling it 'Pay Restoration'. This really is infuriating.

If anything good came out of this recession and challenged economic period it was the reduction in the wages of SIPTU members. Why in God's name have they now the paw out again for something they never, ever deserved? Have we not learnt anything? I truly get the sense these people are insatiable and absolutely do not give a flying f*ck. It's disgusting.

Letree

myshirt wrote: »

Would they ever stop calling it 'Pay Restoration'. This really is infuriating.

If anything good came out of this recession and challenged economic period it was the reduction in the wages of SIPTU members. Why in God's name have they now the paw out again for something they never, ever deserved? Have we not learnt anything? I truly get the sense these people are insatiable and absolutely do not give a flying f*ck. It's disgusting.

What do they not give a flying f*ck about?

They took significant cuts and took on extra work and longer hours. They haven't had a rise in 7 years. They look at private sector workers getting payrises and they see their bills and cost of living rise year on year. Why wouldn't they seek a payrise. They aren't even being greedy they are willing to accept 2% for godsake. Hardly a ransom.

Do you expect them to never look for a payrise again?

bjork

Letree wrote: »

What do they not give a flying f*ck about?

They took significant cuts and took on extra work and longer hours. They haven't had a rise in 7 years. They look at private sector workers getting payrises and they see their bills and cost of living rise year on year. Why wouldn't they seek a payrise. They aren't even being greedy they are willing to accept 2% for godsake. Hardly a ransom.

Do you expect them to never look for a payrise again?

Well there are concerns some of these ones don't give a flying fluck

Grim reading
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-chief-says-clearout-of-uncompassionate-staff-needed-from-maternity-units-31210383.html

SaveOurLyric

Letree wrote: »

What do they not give a flying f*ck about?

They took significant cuts and took on extra work and longer hours. They haven't had a rise in 7 years. They look at private sector workers getting payrises and they see their bills and cost of living rise year on year. Why wouldn't they seek a payrise.

Because they were overpaid in the first place. Still some years to go before a pay rise would be justified.

blackcard

bjork wrote: »

Well there are concerns some of these ones don't give a flying fluck

Grim reading
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-chief-says-clearout-of-uncompassionate-staff-needed-from-maternity-units-31210383.html

Equally you could say people in the private sector don't care just because some private nursing homes are not well run

daithi7

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Because they were overpaid in the first place. Still some years to go before a pay rise would be justified.

Absolutely. We have the most overpaid public service& civil service in the world relative to our resources. After the bust, we continued to over pay our public servants by an obnoxious margin. That ongoing overpayment for public services has put more than 4-5 times the cost of bailing out the banks on the national debt. And, we are still borrowing hugely to run this country. Yet, before we have even nearly balanced the books, back come the greedy pubic sector unions to seek to burden the society more so that they can further over pay themselves relative to their private sector peers and practically every other peer set of pubic servants in the OECD. It's disgusting and immoral at this stage.

This public sector pay increase is being sought while private sector pensions are still being raided to pay for their existing pay levels and increments. Can someone kindly explain to me why private sector workers have to pay for over inflated public sector pensions through taxes before they can ever contribute to their own pension!?

I sincerely hope Labour get absolutely rifled for this blatant exhibition of election politics. They & the national scourge that are pubic sector unions deserve it, God knows they deserve it& so will the Irish electorate hopefully......

Jawgap

bjork wrote: »

We have to wait until an election and even then it's doubtful they'll get the person with the balls.


The only way the teachers union will downfall is when it implodes on itself. It has already isolated younger and newer entrants while failing to address any real issues.

You tell me what makes a good teacher, I'll tell you the parameters

So they're already losing. What else is too lose by trying a different approach?

The curriculum etc is nothing to do with how the individual performs. That's the content, not their performance and is a separate issue.

Who is 'they'? We're the people who vote them in - if we vote in shysters, numpties and incompetents then that's our own fault.

Jawgap

myshirt wrote: »

Would they ever stop calling it 'Pay Restoration'. This really is infuriating.

If anything good came out of this recession and challenged economic period it was the reduction in the wages of SIPTU members. Why in God's name have they now the paw out again for something they never, ever deserved? Have we not learnt anything? I truly get the sense these people are insatiable and absolutely do not give a flying f*ck. It's disgusting.

That's what it is. There were two sides who agreed a deal and one unilaterally reneged on it - they're just putting back what they took.

suicide_circus

The country is, for all intents and purposes, broke with crippling national debt. Even more important than that is the fact that Europe as a whole is in an appalling state economically. The idea that public servants should have their pay restored to levels which should have never been agreed to at a time of economic frivolity is questionable to say the least. Every cent has to be borrowed and paid for by our kids twenty years down the line. This is far too soon and smacks of the financial imprudence that created this mess in the first place.

ThisRegard

I was listening to some labour spokesman yesterday evening on Matt Cooper and was a bit staggered hearing him go on about how great the public service has been over the last few years, making it out as if they single handily pulled the country into recovery, so they should be rewarded for doing so. Do these guys never learn ?

Lucinda Creighton was arguing the other side and she managed to sound the most reasonable on this point. Then some SF lad came along and sat both sides of the fence while complaining that the other 2 were getting involved in auction politics.

mariaalice

I don't know why people take the unions so seriously, they are a faction group representing the members like a lot of faction groups in Ireland, anything form groups representing farmers, groups representing hotels, and so on a lot of it is PR, its a game get your issue on the main news programs.

Public servants are not going to be handed the money willingly or in a haphazard fashion that day is gone but there will be some rowing back after a lot of barging wont happen till next year and after the elections, I am a great believer in pragmatism.

mariaalice

ThisRegard wrote: »

I was listening to some labour spokesman yesterday evening on Matt Cooper and was a bit staggered hearing him go on about how great the public service has been over the last few years, making it out as if they single handily pulled the country into recovery, so they should be rewarded for doing so. Do these guys never learn ?

Lucinda Creighton was arguing the other side and she managed to sound the most reasonable on this point. Then some SF lad came along and sat both sides of the fence while complaining that the other 2 were getting involved in auction politics.

You have summed up SF perfectly sit on the fence till you see what the wind is blowing then get behind whatever is popular.

Geuze

suicide_circus wrote: »

The country is, for all intents and purposes, broke with crippling national debt. Even more important than that is the fact that Europe as a whole is in an appalling state economically. The idea that public servants should have their pay restored to levels which should have never been agreed to at a time of economic frivolity is questionable to say the least. Every cent has to be borrowed and paid for by our kids twenty years down the line. This is far too soon and smacks of the financial imprudence that created this mess in the first place.

There is no question of all the pay cuts being restored in one go, or even over 2-3 years, I guess.

Geuze

ThisRegard wrote: »

I was listening to some labour spokesman yesterday evening on Matt Cooper and was a bit staggered hearing him go on about how great the public service has been over the last few years, making it out as if they single handily pulled the country into recovery, so they should be rewarded for doing so. Do these guys never learn ?

PS numbers did fall.

PS pay was cut three times.

PS productivity did rise.

Now, the PS did not "single-handedly pull the country into recovery".

ThisRegard

Geuze wrote: »

PS numbers did fall.

PS pay was cut three times.

PS productivity did rise.

I never claimed otherwise. But it's still far from a slimline, effective and economical organisation that it should and could be.

bjork

Jawgap wrote: »

Who is 'they'? We're the people who vote them in - if we vote in shysters, numpties and incompetents then that's our own fault.

You can´t vote for people who don´t stand for election

Jawgap

ThisRegard wrote: »

I never claimed otherwise. But it's still far from a slimline, effective and economical organisation that it should and could be.

People seem to think the PS is some kind of monolith. It's not so describing it as an organisation is pointless.

It is a collection of organisations, agencies, authorities etc - some executive, some operational and some contemplative. And yes, some are wasteful and some are efficient, and effective and economical and some are wasteful some days and effective on others.

Also, the fact remains that any moves towards improving operational effectiveness or efficiency in certain PS organisations are universally met with vocal public objections - try closing a local, inefficient hospital or Garda station and see what happens. Likewise, propose a national fire service and see how far that gets, or the amalgamation of schools.......everyone is happy for a hospital to close or schools to be amalgamated as long as it's not their hospital or schools