Public sector pay increase

daithi7

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

meaningless graph.
Ever hear the hospital beside a factory analogy?

Yeah, except its a bs lazy argument, typical public service BS tbh. Many sectors of the private sector now have a higher education level than the average public sector worker, e.g. It, financial services, consultancy,etc, etc

And, when normalised for education and other factors e.g. age, seniority,,etc etc the publicservice in Ireland are still paid more than 20% more than their private sector Equivalents... before permanency, gold plated pension, holidays, sick day ' entitlements', etc, etc, etc.
QED

Roger Hassenforder

daithi7 wrote: »

Yeah, except its a bs lazy argument, typical public service BS tbh. Many sectors of the private sector now have a higher education level than the average public sector worker, e.g. It, financial services, consultancy,etc, etc

And, when normalised for education and other factors e.g. age, seniority,,etc etc the publicservice in Ireland are still paid more than 20% than their private sector Equivalents... before permanency, gold plated pension, holidays, sick day ' entitlements', etc, etc, etc.
QED

so you haven't read it going by that response.:rolleyes:

Not many radiographers working on factory assembly lines; not many obstetric consultants in the warehouse; not many physiotherapists driving forklifts etc. etc. Even the poorer paid workers in a hospital (e.g. cleaners and canteen staff) are usually outsourced private sector staff.

Your 20% figure, source please, but I'll assume quoting the CSO indirectly? is based on a gross figure and does not even include the PRD. Average Public service pay is skewed by the (vastly) higher earners. 45% of public servants earn less than €40,000 a year. 68% of public servants earn less than €50,000 a year. Average industrial wage = €41,806.96 (which doesnt include bonuses, BIK etc.) (2012), and doesnt incude the hospitality/retail sector, per IBEC the average there is 30,000, further pulling down "average" private sector pay.

why aren't you exercising yourself over the disparity between pay for male V female form the same report? I'll wager its because you're male private sector...? or the pay disparity between retail and IT at 93%, oh wait... its because we pay differently for different jobs... not many retail jobs in the private sector we can compare to.

your report if im correct: . on average, public service workers have higher educational attainment, longer service, are older, and are more likely to be in professional jobs than their counterparts in the private sector. These remain the most significant factors in explaining any premium in public sector pay. and admits the gap could actually be from minus 1.4% 11.4%, when Pension levy factored in.

here's what Fintan O'Toole had to say




but keep trotting out the standard BS, we'll keep refuting it.

daithi7

Two more info graphs to again illustrate the current over pay that our public service receive relative to their EU peers already. These are some of the same EU creditor nations that we are borrowing off monthly to over pay our public servants yet more than theirs. Go figure hey!?

daithi7

And all this excess pay for less hours worked apparently.......value for money how are you!?

Monife

darkpagandeath wrote: »

This has been done to death. They should be paid in line with their European counterparts. SW is not to high Any lower and people would not be able to Survive. Welfare was reduced at the start of the bust prices still went up from CT rates.

Are you kidding? SW is way too high. When it makes more sense for someone to be on SW than to take a €10 per hour full time job, then it is too high. SW is suppose to be a stepping stone for people to get back on their feet, not a way of life. It should provide the most basic necessities: shelter and food and not much else.

daithi7 wrote: »

And all this excess pay for less hours worked apparently.......value for money how are you!?

Well that graph is complete bullsh*t! It is giving the average daily hours worked as just under 6.2. Grades from CO to HEO have to work 7 hours 24 minutes every day (not including lunch). APs and POs (and higher) work much longer hours.

Monife

daithi7 wrote: »

Two more info graphs to again illustrate the current over pay that our public service receive relative to their EU peers already. These are some of the same EU creditor nations that we are borrowing off monthly to over pay our public servants yet more than theirs. Go figure hey!?

Again with the absolute bullsh*t. Not even the Taoiseach earns the stated wage that is on that graph, converted to euro it is just over 200K but Enda earns €185,350.

Mr. teddywinkles

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

so you haven't read it going by that response.:rolleyes:

Not many radiographers working on factory assembly lines; not many obstetric consultants in the warehouse; not many physiotherapists driving forklifts etc. etc. Even the poorer paid workers in a hospital (e.g. cleaners and canteen staff) are usually outsourced private sector staff.

Your 20% figure, source please, but I'll assume quoting the CSO indirectly? is based on a gross figure and does not even include the PRD. Average Public service pay is skewed by the (vastly) higher earners. 45% of public servants earn less than €40,000 a year. 68% of public servants earn less than €50,000 a year. Average industrial wage = €41,806.96 (which doesnt include bonuses, BIK etc.) (2012), and doesnt incude the hospitality/retail sector, per IBEC the average there is 30,000, further pulling down "average" private sector pay.

why aren't you exercising yourself over the disparity between pay for male V female form the same report? I'll wager its because you're male private sector...? or the pay disparity between retail and IT at 93%, oh wait... its because we pay differently for different jobs... not many retail jobs in the private sector we can compare to.

your report if im correct: . on average, public service workers have higher educational attainment, longer service, are older, and are more likely to be in professional jobs than their counterparts in the private sector. These remain the most significant factors in explaining any premium in public sector pay. and admits the gap could actually be from minus 1.4% 11.4%, when Pension levy factored in.

here's what Fintan O'Toole had to say




but keep trotting out the standard BS, we'll keep refuting it.

Of course because everyone in these factories drive forklifts. Lads that's the end of debate. Tied up with a nice bow
What about the likes of porters in hospitals. Load of education there too.

Geuze

daithi7 wrote: »

And, when normalised for education and other factors e.g. age, seniority,,etc etc the publicservice in Ireland are still paid more than 20% more than their private sector Equivalents... before permanency, gold plated pension, holidays, sick day ' entitlements', etc, etc, etc.
QED

Note that the PS pay premium is now reduced to approx [-1% to +1%].

And that is before the third paycut (Haddington road).

See recent research here:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/publicprivatepay.pdf

draiochtanois

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Jawgap

draiochtanois wrote: »

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That's funny, when the CSO research showed a 14%+ premium for PS workers people were acting like they were Moses with the tablets!

Now, when the research doesn't suit preconceptions it's dismissed........

Geuze

draiochtanois wrote: »

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You are casting aspersions on the Statisticians of the CSO..............that is a very unfair remark.

Roger Hassenforder

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Of course because everyone in these factories drive forklifts. Lads that's the end of debate. Tied up with a nice bow
What about the likes of porters in hospitals. Load of education there too.

Thanks!
The wife picked the bow though.

Is a hospital staffed entirely of porters?

Roger Hassenforder

draiochtanois wrote: »

Recent research completed by public sector employees.

I don't need to read that to know the results ...

Sums up debate about Public Service pay really.

*puts fingers in ears...."Na na na na na...
..nope I can't hear you...But you're all a bunch of overpaid wasters"

..."evidence? What evidence... The man in the bookies said so....na na na na na...."

draiochtanois

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draiochtanois

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Says the lad who is too busy public service bashing to even know what he is saying.

draiochtanois

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Mr. teddywinkles

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Thanks!
The wife picked the bow though.

Is a hospital staffed entirely of porters?

What that ol saying. Say something stupid get reply along the same lines.
Were a generation on average fairly well educated today compared with years gone. Most if not all those assembly line jobs are automated now or moved out east.

Roger Hassenforder

draiochtanois wrote: »

Your evidence is along the lines of being shocked that turkeys voting to cancel Christmas

Nope, more along the lines of using...I dunno... actual evidence?
Like what evidence is supposed to be. Not ramblings, hysteria, opinions, polemics, diatribes etc.
Evidence...facts if you will!

Roger Hassenforder

draiochtanois wrote: »

It is quite simple, I don't see a huge movement from the beleaguered public sector into the private sector as the recovery continues?

Why?

Maybe deep down even if you can't quite admit it you know things aren't so bad.

That's some argument right there.

draiochtanois

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There is absolutely no doubt that I would be paid more, and considerably more at that, in the private sector and on top of that have the potential to earn far more and in the future. I may well move to the private sector, I may not. There are various reasons influencing my decision such as the type of work, location of jobs etc.

Ironically enough in my area of work I would get a permanent job faster in the private sector too.

Roger Hassenforder

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

What that ol saying. Say something stupid get reply along the same lines.
Were a generation on average fairly well educated today compared with years gone. Most if not all those assembly line jobs are automated now or moved out east.

True re we're better educated
We still have over 200,000 working in the manufacturing sector.

draiochtanois

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draiochtanois

draiochtanois wrote: »

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A friend of mine doing a similar job to me left for the private sector earlier this year and doubled his gross salary from under 40k to approximately 80k when bonuses and benefits are taken into account.

Thats an extreme example but there are plenty of example in between also.

Mr. teddywinkles

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

A friend of mine doing a similar job to me left for the private sector earlier this year and doubled his gross salary from under 40k to approximately 80k when bonuses and benefits are taken into account.

Thats an extreme example but there are plenty of example in between also.

Well ya know what to do so dont ya

Mr. teddywinkles

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Well ya know what to do so dont ya

I personally would not like to do the particular job nor move to the place the job is.

Roger Hassenforder

draiochtanois wrote: »

yeah yeah sure.

"Force debating weak in this one, yes? Mmmmm? "

YODA, 2015

draiochtanois

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Jawgap

draiochtanois wrote: »

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In the last four years the management team I was part of in the PS have all decamped to the private sector. One is on a part-time arrangement, but the other three of us all are now working for firms or companies in the private sector.

All told it took about 30 months for us to bail, but if you exclude the P/T person (who took early retirement) the three full timers all left within a year - me being the last to go, but I left the lights on.

Oh, and the agency we used to work for put out a tender for professional services earlier in the year, it was won by a firm one of my former colleagues works for, so now he's basically doing a part of the same job he was doing about 2 years ago only at about twice the hourly rate! But don't worry the guys who replaced us are on much lower salaries

draiochtanois

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No the pay is not higher due to the work or the location its higher because its a private sector job that understands highly qualified people should be well paid, I might add that its far from a high level job in the company either.

When I said I wouldn't like the particular job or location I meant personally, there is nothing wrong with the location I just have a very limited number of places I want to live, and one particular place where I want to actually settle down for good (my home area).

daithi7

Apologies for upsetting some public sector folk, who would like all of us to hang on to the much spun misconceptions that people in the private sector are all creaming it, that Irish public sector workers work hard for little pay , and that being asked to finally contribute a little towards a gold plated pension, is just an emergency measure (I mean just reading that shows the level of entitlement by some & their unions).

The report I quoted from showing the Irish public servants as the 4 th highest paid in the EU, while working the least number of hours per week bar one other nation is by the independent third party that is ' the Institute of International & European Affairs '.

More of their report here if you wish
http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance

And all this from a bust country.....wonderful isn't it, our deeply indebted grand children will be so grateful when they have to emigrate to well run,low debt creditor countries to find work too!!

Mr. teddywinkles

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

True re we're better educated
We still have over 200,000 working in the manufacturing sector.

So there's 200000 people working on assembly lines. Your point being?

Jawgap

daithi7 wrote: »

Apologies for upsetting some public sector folk, who would like all of us to hang on to the much spun misconceptions that people in the private sector are all creaming it, that Irish public sector workers work hard for little pay , and that being asked to finally contribute a little towards a gold plated pension, is just an emergency measure (I mean just reading that shows the level of entitlement by some & their unions).

The report I quoted from showing the Irish public servants as the 4 th highest paid in the EU, while working the least number of hours per week bar one other nation is by the independent third party that is ' the Institute of International & European Affairs '.

More of their report here if you wish
http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance

And all this from a bust country.....wonderful isn't it, our deeply indebted grand children will be so grateful when they have to emigrate to well run,low debt creditor countries to find work too!!

Ah, I see now.

The CSO research is rejected because it's put together by public servants.

But the IIEA research is obviously gospel because of who funds them....

http://www.iiea.com/funding

Again, people seem happy to pick only that research that supports the idea that PS staff are universally overpaid......

crusier

I reckon they'll get 50 euro a week on average back after pay Restoration and tax breaks, bastards!

Dexter Bip

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Perhaps for accountants, engineers, solicitors or actuaries yes but teachers are not accountants, engineers, solicitors or actuaries.

Teachers have three months of the year off, excellent working conditions and they can't be sacked.These are perks that add to the desirability of the job and of course the more desirable a job the less the employer can pay to meet demand.

We know the teaching profession is over subscribed, many young teachers find it extremely hard to find a full time position, this is their fault for not researching their industry but it's also the governments fault as they have allowed the supply of new graduates to outmatch demand.

What I would propose is to continue to lower teachers wages (or keep the wage freeze, same thing only slower) until the supply of potential teaching candidates reaches the demand.

If schools are finding it hard to fill positions we can look at giving individual schools the right to pay more under certain circumstances.

Check out Teaching in the UK for an example of where this goes. Anybody who has experienced it will tell you that it is not well paid, is not regarded highly and certainly does not always attract the calibre of person who I would like to see in charge of my childrens' education and life chances.

Teaching attracts the brightest and the best in Ireland precisely because it is well rewarded. Ireland has always valued (and profited from) its education system. Education at all levels is an investment. Looking at it in terms of teacher salary is just plain short sighted.
And yes, teachers have long holidays. I would suggest that it would be difficult not to burn out without some chance to recover from the madness that goes on for the rest of the year.
There are some very simplistic generalisations about the 'government' not matching suppply and demand and people not researching their careers.
If you can find the stats that the government might have used in predicting retirements/increase/decrease in populations etc. I would be interested in seeing them. Further, It is the Universities who decide how many students they will enroll. There are many factors (mostly to do with money) that influence these.
New entrants to teaching are already subject to 10% pay decrease and coupled with the stress of the job, having to spend five or six years to qualify in the first place (Primary degree plus two year Masters since last year) why would anybody bother? If you study for seven years you can become a vet or a doctor.

Finally, No I am not a teacher. I have worked in the SME and the public sector. I have owned businesses and worked for the state. Each way there are pressures and stresses. In my view most people do an honest day's work.

blackcard

draiochtanois wrote: »

It is quite simple, I don't see a huge movement from the beleaguered public sector into the private sector as the recovery continues?

Why?

Maybe deep down even if you can't quite admit it you know things aren't so bad.

Why didn't we see a huge movement from the beleaguered private sector into the public sector when the celtic tiger was at its height and salaries in the Public Sector were 20% higher than now?

Roger Hassenforder

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

So there's 200000 people working on assembly lines. Your point being?

nope, thats not what I said, but it does make shyt of your "argument", "most if not all" production line jobs have gone east...

Roger Hassenforder

Dexter Bip wrote: »

Teaching attracts the brightest and the best in Ireland precisely because it is well rewarded.

I think teaching attracts a certain type of person, not necessarily the brightest and best though, I agree with the rest of you though.
My first job after graduation, I found myself teaching, hated every f**kin second of it. You couldnt pay me enough to go do it again. Its a very unique job. For what they do, I think they are well enough rewarded, considering the hours, but that's what comes with the job. There's no point grumbling about it, off you go and train to be one if its so brilliant!
Young teachers arent getting a chance now, when schools are hiring retired teachers as subs, this needs to be stopped.

darkpagandeath

Why are there so many teachers then so many without jobs ? Can't be that hard to qualify.

Roger Hassenforder

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why are there so many teachers then so many without jobs ? Can't be that hard to qualify.

eh?

Mr. teddywinkles

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

nope, thats not what I said, but it does make shyt of your "argument", "most if not all" production line jobs have gone east...

Ok you know best. See this is why people are pissed off listening to this crying for more money and more money from this minority in the country. Its not really the money its the attitude that gets up peoples noses.
You come off so self entitled compared to everyone else. Doesn't help your case.
Didn't say all but partly a lot of job losses over the last decade is due to cheaper labour costs overseas.

Roger Hassenforder

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Ok you know best. See this is why people are pissed off listening to this crying for more money and more money from this minority in the country. Its not really the money its the attitude that gets up peoples noses.
You come off so self entitled compared to everyone else. Doesn't help your case.
Didn't say all but partly a lot of job losses over the last decade is due to cheaper labour costs overseas.

Will you take your teddy, and your blankie and go home to mommy. FFS.

is this your normal reaction when someone disagrees with you, or debunks your points?
I don't know best, but I'll tell you one thing, I'm grounding my argument in facts and evidence. Its up to you to refute with a counter argument, not go whining about attitude and self entitlements.

I've worked on production lines, in boning halls, public sector, teaching, post sorting, fish processing, bakeries, in SMEs and multinationals, and can tell you one thing. Very few people in this country are overpaid and under worked. There are exceptions of course but that's what they are.

evolving_doors

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why are there so many teachers then so many without jobs ? Can't be that hard to qualify.

Because they believe the rubbish spouted by people who haven't a clue (but have a grudge).

Mr. teddywinkles

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Will you take your teddy, and your blankie and go home to mommy. FFS.

is this your normal reaction when someone disagrees with you, or debunks your points?
I don't know best, but I'll tell you one thing, I'm grounding my argument in facts and evidence. Its up to you to refute with a counter argument, not go whining about attitude and self entitlements.

I've worked on production lines, in boning halls, public sector, teaching, post sorting, fish processing, bakeries, in SMEs and multinationals, and can tell you one thing. Very few people in this country are overpaid and under worked. There are exceptions of course but that's what they are.

Touch a nerve or what. So you've worked in every conceivable job on the planet.
Good so you'll know listening to the whinging from the most vocal group in this country is not too appealing to the guy workin in fish gutting plant.
Your arguing with yourself because I'm like you. Iv worked in ****e paying jobs. Iv worked in good paying jobs at varies stages if my life. But I take it as it comes.
What did you debunk exactly.
Btw I like my mommy and my teddy bear thanks

Iwasfrozen

Dexter Bip wrote: »

Check out Teaching in the UK for an example of where this goes. Anybody who has experienced it will tell you that it is not well paid, is not regarded highly and certainly does not always attract the calibre of person who I would like to see in charge of my childrens' education and life chances.

Teaching attracts the brightest and the best in Ireland precisely because it is well rewarded. Ireland has always valued (and profited from) its education system. Education at all levels is an investment. Looking at it in terms of teacher salary is just plain short sighted.
And yes, teachers have long holidays. I would suggest that it would be difficult not to burn out without some chance to recover from the madness that goes on for the rest of the year.
There are some very simplistic generalisations about the 'government' not matching suppply and demand and people not researching their careers.
If you can find the stats that the government might have used in predicting retirements/increase/decrease in populations etc. I would be interested in seeing them. Further, It is the Universities who decide how many students they will enroll. There are many factors (mostly to do with money) that influence these.
New entrants to teaching are already subject to 10% pay decrease and coupled with the stress of the job, having to spend five or six years to qualify in the first place (Primary degree plus two year Masters since last year) why would anybody bother? If you study for seven years you can become a vet or a doctor.

Finally, No I am not a teacher. I have worked in the SME and the public sector. I have owned businesses and worked for the state. Each way there are pressures and stresses. In my view most people do an honest day's work.

Education is an investment but we should as a correctly functioning society heavily scrutinize every penny spent by the state in order to maximize returns and minimize costs. I don't believe we have reached peak possible efficiency in the Education sector and a good way start would be to cut teacher's salaries, increase investment in school assets, increase availability to tertiary education for all students and cut summer holidays.

I don't for one second accept the excuse of teachers or students burning out should we lengthen the academic year. South Korea which is constantly ranked as having some of the best students in the world begins the first semester in March and finishes in mid July then starts the second semester at the end of August and finishes mid February.

I also don't accept your fear that lowering wages would lead to teaching becoming a less desirable job for talented people. As long as we ensure a very high standard is set at MA stage we can ensure there remains a pool of talented teachers to choose from.

At the moment the teaching industry is over subscribed, there are to many potential teachers for not enough jobs. We have room to lower wages and lower demand before we hit a supply problem and that is what we should be doing to ensure maximum return on investment for the tax payer.

Unions will have a problem with these reforms yes, but that is why I suport the whole scale de-unionization of the public sector.

Arsemageddon

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

that is why I suport the whole scale de-unionization of the public sector.

Good luck with that!

Iwasfrozen

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Good luck with that!

All it would take is one strong willed government to refuse to co-operate with them.

Iwasfrozen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Education is an investment but we should as a correctly functioning society heavily scrutinize every penny spent by the state in order to maximize returns and minimize costs. I don't believe we have reached peak possible efficiency in the Education sector and a good way start would be to cut teacher's salaries, increase investment in school assets, increase availability to tertiary education for all students and cut summer holidays.

I don't for one second accept the excuse of teachers or students burning out should we lengthen the academic year. South Korea which is constantly ranked as having some of the best students in the world begins the first semester in March and finishes in mid July then starts the second semester at the end of August and finishes mid February.

I also don't accept your fear that lowering wages would lead to teaching becoming a less desirable job for talented people. As long as we ensure a very high standard is set at MA stage we can ensure there remains a pool of talented teachers to choose from.

At the moment the teaching industry is over subscribed, there are to many potential teachers for not enough jobs. We have room to lower wages and lower demand before we hit a supply problem and that is what we should be doing to ensure maximum return on investment for the tax payer.

Unions will have a problem with these reforms yes, but that is why I suport the whole scale de-unionization of the public sector.

Horse sh*t of the highest order from start to finish.

It's entertaining though to watch a person so bitter who will never see things end up in the twisted way they would like.

evolving_doors

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Education is an investment but we should as a correctly functioning society heavily scrutinize every penny spent by the state in order to maximize returns and minimize costs. I don't believe we have reached peak possible efficiency in the Education sector and a good way start would be to cut teacher's salaries, increase investment in school assets, increase availability to tertiary education for all students and cut summer holidays.

I don't for one second accept the excuse of teachers or students burning out should we lengthen the academic year. South Korea which is constantly ranked as having some of the best students in the world begins the first semester in March and finishes in mid July then starts the second semester at the end of August and finishes mid February.

I also don't accept your fear that lowering wages would lead to teaching becoming a less desirable job for talented people. As long as we ensure a very high standard is set at MA stage we can ensure there remains a pool of talented teachers to choose from.

At the moment the teaching industry is over subscribed, there are to many potential teachers for not enough jobs. We have room to lower wages and lower demand before we hit a supply problem and that is what we should be doing to ensure maximum return on investment for the tax payer.

Unions will have a problem with these reforms yes, but that is why I suport the whole scale de-unionization of the public sector.

What's with all the teacher hate?

Potential-Monke

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

All it would take is one strong willed government to refuse to co-operate with them.

One strong willed government to take on the might of the European Union and tackle the legal status of every individual to join a trade union. This cannot happen.

JillyQ

Potential-Monke wrote: »

One strong willed government to take on the might of the European Union and tackle the legal status of every individual to join a trade union. This cannot happen.

I don't think he said anything about stopping people joining a union, the government as a employer has the right not to recognise it.