Public sector pay increase

daithi7

Looking at just household debt :

http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/dan-obrien-household-debt-is-falling-but-the-pain-isnt-over-29970790.html

Irish households owe almost twice their annual gross disposable income.

Among peer countries, only the Danes and the Dutch owe more (but they have stronger asset sides to their balance sheets).

In Britain, where property prices never seem to stop rising, the ratio is around 130 per cent of disposable income. In Spain, where property prices never seem to stop falling, the figure is 125 per cent.

Irish households have managed to reduce their debts as a percentage of GDP from 206 per cent in autumn of 2008 to just under the 200 per cent threshold five years later.

The reason the decline has been so small is because disposable incomes have fallen so sharply (only Greece has experienced a bigger decline over the past half-decade).

Progress should speed up in the years to come if – as planned – disposable income is not cut much further by more tax increases and if the more competitive sectors in the economy experience stronger wage growth.

But it will be well into the next decade at the earliest before household debt comes down to safer and more sustainable levels of around 100 per cent of disposable income.

The grind goes on.

Irish Independent

daithi7

Looking at Government Debt to GDP we're also in the poor house, dependent on money lenders...

http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/irelands-debt-levels-are-fourth-in-europe-29940384.html

'IRELAND had the fourth highest government debt in Europe at the end of September last year, according to the latest data released by Eurostat.

Government debt in the Eurozone fell for the first time since the end of 2007. At the end of the third quarter, the debt-to-GDP average for the euro area was 92.7pc.

This is compared to 93.4pc in the previous quarter.

Ireland’s debt level was 124.8pc at the end of September. Debt-riddled Greece had the highest at 171.8pc, followed by Italy at 132.9pc, and Portugal at 128.7pc.'

Kermit.de.frog

seeds of the next crisis being planted. nothing learned.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/public-servants-set-to-gain-1-000-next-year-in-pay-deal-1.2229670

Black Menorca

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

seeds of the next crisis being planted. nothing learned.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/public-servants-set-to-gain-1-000-next-year-in-pay-deal-1.2229670

Don't try and pin the economic collapse on public service workers. It just won't wash.

Pay restoration is the only show in tow after years of sacrifice for the good of the country.

darkpagandeath

Black Menorca wrote: »

Don't try and pin the economic collapse on public service workers. It just won't wash.

Pay restoration is the only show in tow after years of sacrifice for the good of the country.

Sacrifice ? The wages where merely toned down from stupid amounts of pay rises during the boom. They are still above the level of inflation for a good few years. No need to jack them back up the the crazy high levels from the boom.

Black Menorca

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Sacrifice ? The wages where merely toned down from stupid amounts of pay rises during the boom. They are still above the level of inflation for a good few years. No need to jack them back up the the crazy high levels from the boom.

The commitment has been made to restore pay and we'll be holding the government to that commitment, starting with the lower paid.

darkpagandeath

Black Menorca wrote: »

The commitment has been made to restore pay and we'll be holding the government to that commitment, starting with the lower paid.

No, I'm pretty sure it says if economics allow. And it won't be the low paid it will be everyone. Can't believe that was said with a straight face “Lower paid”....

cocoman

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Sacrifice ? The wages where merely toned down from stupid amounts of pay rises during the boom. They are still above the level of inflation for a good few years. No need to jack them back up the the crazy high levels from the boom.

I wouldn't exactly say a Clerical Officer starting on €21k (rising to €32k after 11 years) is a crazy high level.

Black Menorca

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No, I'm pretty sure it says if economics allow. And it won't be the low paid it will be everyone. Can't believe that was said with a straight face “Lower paid”....

Lower paid will be prioritised and the commitment has been confirmed by Minister Howlin. This is happening and PS workers will make no apology for it either.

To Elland Back

Black Menorca wrote: »

Don't try and pin the economic collapse on public service workers. It just won't wash.

Pay restoration is the only show in tow after years of sacrifice for the good of the country.

Ah bless, the public service workers, with their preserved employment and benefits saved the country all on their own

Black Menorca

To Elland Back wrote: »

Ah bless, the public service workers, with their preserved employment and benefits saved the country all on their own

Your condescending tone is duly noted.

darkpagandeath

cocoman wrote: »

I wouldn't exactly say a Clerical Officer starting on €21k (rising to €32k after 11 years) is a crazy high level.

You mean a secretary basically a person who helps another person ? 21k for that is pretty decent. And if they came in on that wage how will it be restored to something higher ? 403 euro a week for doing menial work is very decent.

Black Menorca

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean a secretary basically a person who helps another person ? 21k for that is pretty decent. And if they came in on that wage how will it be restored to something higher ?

:D:D:D:D:D:D

Yes, we're all secretaries.

darkpagandeath

Black Menorca wrote: »

:D:D:D:D:D:D

Yes, we're all secretaries.

If yor are a Clerical officer then yes. Private sector what I'm looking at is starting from 15k up to 25 so 21k is very decent.

Black Menorca

darkpagandeath wrote: »

If yor are a Clerical officer then yes. Private sector what I'm looking at is starting from 15k up to 25 so 21k is very decent.

I like you. You make me laugh.

mikemac1

A clerical officer who gets 31k for basic admin tasks may be overpaid

An auditor in Revenue who does amazing work and be on 70k may be underpaid for the value they bring.

I don't know if PDMS will identify the best but wouldn't it be fairer to reward the best staff instead of all the lowest paid staff?

If you are working for years even decades and you have never succeeded or attempted promotion whose fault is it that you are stuck on a clerical officer pay grade.

darkpagandeath

Black Menorca wrote: »

I like you. You make me laugh.

So do you, Can you outline how the role of clerical officer has changed ?

Clerical Officers may be engaged in drafting letters, asking for or giving factual information, making and checking calculations, analysing reports, preparing, scrutinising and verifying documents, statistics, records, etc. They may also be engaged in operating office equipment such as computer terminals, photocopiers and fax machines etc. They may deal with enquiries at a reception desk and answer telephone calls.

from

http://www.careersportal.ie/careers/detail.php?job_id=95#.VWdm1EbaLSs

Private sector start from about 15k and up

To Elland Back

Black Menorca wrote: »

Your condescending tone is duly noted.

Ah, thanks

niallo27

cocoman wrote: »

I wouldn't exactly say a Clerical Officer starting on €21k (rising to €32k after 11 years) is a crazy high level.

Clerical staff are getting 32k. ****en hell. No wonder we are ****ed. I have family in the public service and believe me I know how little the majority do. Still who are the fools I'm the one in the private sector breaking my balls for a bit over what clerical staff get.

Black Menorca

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So do you, Can you outline how the role of clerical officer has changed ?



from

http://www.careersportal.ie/careers/detail.php?job_id=95#.VWdm1EbaLSs

Private sector start from about 15k and up

Let me see.

File my nails
Chat about the Soaps
Read Hello and OK
Get coffee for the boss
Ringing all my mates

Seriously! A 'secretary's' work is never done.

Black Menorca

niallo27 wrote: »

Clerical staff are getting 32k. ****en hell. No wonder we are ****ed. I have family in the public service and believe me I know how little the majority do. Still who are the fools I'm the one in the private sector breaking my balls for a bit over what clerical staff get.

You had an opportunity to apply last year. Fail the entrance exam?

darkpagandeath

Black Menorca wrote: »

Let me see.

File my nails
Chat about the Soaps
Read Hello and OK
Get coffee for the boss
Ringing all my mates

Seriously! A 'secretary's' work is never done.

Cool so any justification of starting at 21k vs as low as 15k in the private sector ?

niallo27

Black Menorca wrote: »

You had an opportunity to apply last year. Fail the entrance exam?

Was their jobs. What kind.

niallo27

Black Menorca wrote: »

Let me see.

File my nails
Chat about the Soaps
Read Hello and OK
Get coffee for the boss
Ringing all my mates

Seriously! A 'secretary's' work is never done.

Not sure if your joking or not.

Black Menorca

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Cool so any justification of starting at 21k vs as low as 15k in the private sector ?

My Prada handbag didn't pay for itself you know. Us leeches on the taxpayer demand quality.

niallo27

Black Menorca wrote: »

My Prada handbag didn't pay for itself you know. Us leeches on the taxpayer demand quality.

Is the time off for Christmas shopping gone or is it still there.

darkpagandeath

Black Menorca wrote: »

My Prada handbag didn't pay for itself you know. Us leeches on the taxpayer demand quality.

Did not say leeches said over paid. Again any justification for the 21k starting vs as low as 15 in the private sector ?

Black Menorca

niallo27 wrote: »

Not sure if your joking or not.

Its called irony.

We're used to Renua types who hate the Public Service and want us on the bread line.

Black Menorca

niallo27 wrote: »

Is the time off for Christmas shopping gone or is it still there.

Sadly its gone.

darkpagandeath

Black Menorca wrote: »

Its called irony.

We're used to Renua types who hate the Public Service and want us on the bread line.

I thought Public servents where and that's why they want a pay increase ?

Black Menorca

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Did not say leeches said over paid. Again any justification for the 21k starting vs as low as 15 in the private sector ?

You'd rather see me on pittance in your race to the bottom zealotry.

Its never going to happen.

Black Menorca

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I thought Public servents where and that's why they want a pay increase ?

I'm paid well for the job I do.

These talks are about restoring my pay that was taken during our r=economic crisis. Pay that will be restored in the coming two years.

darkpagandeath

Black Menorca wrote: »

You'd rather see me on pittance in your race to the bottom zealotry.

Its never going to happen.

What race to the bottom, It's a pretty easy role to do 1 day training would probably cover it. 21k seems quite well paid and that's just the starting wage.

PeteFalk78

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Cool so any justification of starting at 21k vs as low as 15k in the private sector ?

Because the chances are they are higher qualified than their counterparts in the private sector.

mikemac1

Black Menorca wrote: »

Pay that will be restored in the coming two years.

You better hope for sooner rather that later if you're waiting for Minister Howlin to see you good

He won't be a minister in 2 years and maybe not this time next year

Idbatterim

I'm paid well for the job I do.

These talks are about restoring my pay that was taken during our r=economic crisis. Pay that will be restored in the coming two years.

Pay "restoration" back to boom time levels, cant wait for the government to have boom time GDP "restored" again :rolleyes: Well at least this time they are probably buying off only one sector, if they have to do that to secure re-election, I would at least prefer to see it go to the working!

Fg know they wont get a majority, Labour have been good bed buddies for them. Who knows how many seats Renua will win and they will rock the boat far more than Labour, and the last thing the government wants, is the boat rocked.

Its a fine balancing act between buying the next election and ensuring you maintain power and at the same time doing the least possible financial damage to the country...

darkpagandeath

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Because the chances are they are higher qualified than their counterparts in the private sector.

What do extra qualification's bring to this basic role ? Should I be paid more in Tesco as I have a degree in psychology ? You get paid for the work you do not what other qualification's you have.

niallo27

Black Menorca wrote: »

Its called irony.

We're used to Renua types who hate the Public Service and want us on the bread line.

I don't hate the public service. I envy you. We should all want to be equal with the public sector not drag them down to our level.

daithi7

The way I see this is simple :

1. Ireland cannot afford to pay public servants more

2. Especially more than EU peers, who have far better public finances, &better run countries. It makes us even more uncompetitive by doing so.

3. We are already borrowing to pay for current expenditure, we (should) know this is not viable and leads to recession & national misery (80s & 00s) e.g. high taxes & debts, high unemployment & emigration, few young people left in towns, empty gaa clubs who can't fill teams, poor demand for housing, economic stagnation, etc,etc,etc

4. If finances did allow, there was an emergency tax introduced on work called the USC, that could be reduced, improving the welfare of all workers in the economy not just a well paid, protected & permanent public sector insider niche

The Government know all of this. Yet they are making a cynical calculation by putting the interests of the public sector (including their own pay) ahead of the greater good e.g by giving public sector pay rises, rather than simply reducing USC for everybody. They think by doing this they will be more popular & hence win more votes at the next election.

I think it is up to the Irish people to prove them wrong. Labour and Fine Gael should get routed for this on the doorsteps, & at the ballot box. This is a sell out of hard won financial prudence (by the troika & the people).

We are a heavily indebted state, yet we insist on giving away tomorrow's earnings today, to protected public sector workers before we've even earned them. Our politicians need to know that this is simply not acceptable. We're not just some bust socialist state, (thanks Bertie, you buffoon), who insist on taking care of the state cronies ahead of the general good, or are we!?

twowheelsonly

JillyQ wrote: »

The state could of course be made a shareholder init then getting a dividend from it to put back in public services such as hosiptals, education etc. .

The State is a shareholder as it is and it's the only one, which is the best way IMO. Think M50 toll bridge and where all that money goes .

JillyQ wrote: »

The state is still getting its cut motor tax is paid to them along with the added dividend. With out the cost of the salary bill, properties etc Of course a private operator takes it cut as well. Along with the online system you have longer opening hours and more flexible opening hours. Goverment gets the money without the cost, as well as the private operator generating an income, which increases the tax take for the goverment. Only difference is it must be run at profit in order to increase the revenue.

....i.e. cost of motor tax skyrockets .

niallo27 wrote: »

Clerical staff are getting 32k. ****en hell. No wonder we are ****ed. I have family in the public service and believe me I know how little the majority do. Still who are the fools I'm the one in the private sector breaking my balls for a bit over what clerical staff get.

Your family are the majority of the Public Service ?

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Did not say leeches said over paid. Again any justification for the 21k starting vs as low as 15 in the private sector ?

21k is a reasonable starting wage . Your problem should be with those paying 15k wages. Aside from that not every CO job is the same , neither is every CO a secretary. It's a bit like "I work in IT" Some of those sell laptops in a shop , others write the programmes for them.

I find it fascinating that everyone knows what everyone elses job is worth, they're never paid enough themselves, all Public Sector workers are overpaid while all Private sector all break their balls all day every day.

My own big money saving idea ? Scrap Free Legal Aid as it stands and create a Public defenders office with salaried staff . Make it mandatory for all those getting a law degree from an Irish university to spend 2 years working there. The cream will rise to the top and be employed by the big firms which would also give them an incentive to work harder to earn the big bucks while the State would save millions on the current system IMO.

JillyQ

twowheelsonly wrote: »

The State is a shareholder as it is and it's the only one, which is the best way IMO. Think M50 toll bridge and where all that money goes .



....i.e. cost of motor tax skyrockets .



Your family are the majority of the Public Service ?



21k is a reasonable starting wage . Your problem should be with those paying 15k wages. Aside from that not every CO job is the same , neither is every CO a secretary. It's a bit like "I work in IT" Some of those sell laptops in a shop , others write the programmes for them.

I find it fascinating that everyone knows what everyone elses job is worth, they're never paid enough themselves, all Public Sector workers are overpaid while all Private sector all break their balls all day every day.

My own big money saving idea ? Scrap Free Legal Aid as it stands and create a Public defenders office with salaried staff . Make it mandatory for all those getting a law degree from an Irish university to spend 2 years working there. The cream will rise to the top and be employed by the big firms which would also give them an incentive to work harder to earn the big bucks while the State would save millions on the current system IMO.

The tolled motorways have been extremely successful, public private partnership, government is still getting money form them. You say the cost of it would skyrocket in cost, well look at another transport equevilant Aer Lingus privatisation and prices have gone way way down. Aslo as another poster has pointed out since the Driver Licencing has been sub contracted out the prices have gone down.

darkpagandeath

twowheelsonly wrote: »

The State is a shareholder as it is and it's the only one, which is the best way IMO. Think M50 toll bridge and where all that money goes .



....i.e. cost of motor tax skyrockets .



Your family are the majority of the Public Service ?



21k is a reasonable starting wage . Your problem should be with those paying 15k wages. Aside from that not every CO job is the same , neither is every CO a secretary. It's a bit like "I work in IT" Some of those sell laptops in a shop , others write the programmes for them.

I find it fascinating that everyone knows what everyone elses job is worth, they're never paid enough themselves, all Public Sector workers are overpaid while all Private sector all break their balls all day every day.

My own big money saving idea ? Scrap Free Legal Aid as it stands and create a Public defenders office with salaried staff . Make it mandatory for all those getting a law degree from an Irish university to spend 2 years working there. The cream will rise to the top and be employed by the big firms which would also give them an incentive to work harder to earn the big bucks while the State would save millions on the current system IMO.

I work in IT it's completely disingenuous to use that as a example of CO vs Secretary.

twowheelsonly

JillyQ wrote: »

The tolled motorways have been extremely successful, public private partnership, government is still getting money form them. You say the cost of it would skyrocket in cost, well look at another transport equevilant Aer Lingus privatisation and prices have gone way way down. Aslo as another poster has pointed out since the Driver Licencing has been sub contracted out the prices have gone down.

Ehh...no... What the other poster said was sarcasm.. Prices have gone up..
The toll example I gave was the M50 bridge. The Government built the roads, a private company built the bridge and tolled to cross it. If the Govt. had done so, having already spent a fortune on the road, they would be raking in that money themselves instead of it going into private hands .
The difference with Aer Lingus is the competition that's out there . If a company gets an exclusive contract in this country it's like a licence to print money !

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I work in IT it's completely disingenuous to use that as a example of CO vs Secretary.

Why? Isn't all IT work the same regardless of the field you're in just like all COs' are the same as secretaries ?
Do you all not just sit around all day typing and playing computer games ??

darkpagandeath

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Ehh...no... What the other poster said was sarcasm.. Prices have gone up..
The toll example I gave was the M50 bridge. The Government built the roads, a private company built the bridge and tolled to cross it. If the Govt. had done so, having already spent a fortune on the road, they would be raking in that money themselves instead of it going into private hands .
The difference with Aer Lingus is the competition that's out there . If a company gets an exclusive contract in this country it's like a licence to print money !



Why? Isn't all IT work the same regardless of the field you're in just like all COs' are the same as secretaries ?
Do you all not just sit around all day typing and playing computer games ??

Nope I was hired into a particular branch of IT, Unlike the universal role of Clerical officer which is a general dog's body role helping out someone else. You known to free up their time from mundane activities to do something. I'm a Server Engineer if you are interested.

JillyQ

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Ehh...no... What the other poster said was sarcasm.. Prices have gone up..
The toll example I gave was the M50 bridge. The Government built the roads, a private company built the bridge and tolled to cross it. If the Govt. had done so, having already spent a fortune on the road, they would be raking in that money themselves instead of it going into private hands .
The difference with Aer Lingus is the competition that's out there . If a company gets an exclusive contract in this country it's like a licence to print money !



Why? Isn't all IT work the same regardless of the field you're in just like all COs' are the same as secretaries ?
Do you all not just sit around all day typing and playing computer games ??

Maybe it was. But then take another private sector thing in with private buses againist bus eireann again they are more successful and more profitable.

Jawgap

JillyQ wrote: »

The tolled motorways have been extremely successful, public private partnership, government is still getting money form them. You say the cost of it would skyrocket in cost, well look at another transport equevilant Aer Lingus privatisation and prices have gone way way down. Aslo as another poster has pointed out since the Driver Licencing has been sub contracted out the prices have gone down.

Actually they haven't. The amount of maintenance work being deferred etc is just storing up huge problems for the future.

Aer Lingus prices have nothing to do with privatisation and everything to do with competition and market forces, specifically from Ryanair - incidentally, if you read the history of Ryanair you'll see how it's gestation was facilitated by the State. Even O'Leary himself has admitted that he often went home in the early days expecting to get a call that Aer Rianta had parked tugs behind their aircraft because of the amounts of landing fees they owed.

As for the NDLS - the price may well be down, but that doesn't follow that the cost of providing the service has gone down, nor does it follow that service standards have universally increased - response times have improved, but what about accessibility?

For example, there is no NDLS centre in Dublin City Centre! In Dublin you go to Santry, Clare Hall, Leopardstown or Citywest - but that's the private sector for you - go where the costs are lowest rather than where the services are needed

PeteFalk78

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What do extra qualification's bring to this basic role ?

I'm obviously talking about qualifications in their specific area.......I don't know why you think I wasn't.

There are countless HETAC and FETAC Level 5 to Level 7 secretarial type courses around the country. And because the public sector (as a ratio) are higher qualified than the private sector, I hazard a guess that qualification is the reason/justification for the additional pay.

JillyQ

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually they haven't. The amount of maintenance work being deferred etc is just storing up huge problems for the future.

Aer Lingus prices have nothing to do with privatisation and everything to do with competition and market forces, specifically from Ryanair - incidentally, if you read the history of Ryanair you'll see how it's gestation was facilitated by the State. Even O'Leary himself has admitted that he often went home in the early days expecting to get a call that Aer Rianta had parked tugs behind their aircraft because of the amounts of landing fees they owed.

As for the NDLS - the price may well be down, but that doesn't follow that the cost of providing the service has gone down, nor does it follow that service standards have universally increased - response times have improved, but what about accessibility?

For example, there is no NDLS centre in Dublin City Centre! In Dublin you go to Santry, Clare Hall, Leopardstown or Citywest - but that's the private sector for you - go where the costs are lowest rather than where the services are needed

do most people not live in the surbarbs?. As for the Ryanair i am well aware of it was like at the start it, most business do struggle for about the first 5 years.

Calina

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Did not say leeches said over paid. Again any justification for the 21k starting vs as low as 15 in the private sector ?

Well, it depends on how you look at it. My starting salary 20 years ago was 15KE.

So frankly, the fact that 15 years on, a starting salary for a clerical worker or secretary is 15KE in the private sector is not a good reflection on the country. I'd argue 21KE isn't exactly generous.

But your mileage may vary. I have no objection to low salaries, but against that, rents probably need to come down. I could live on my own on a junior secretarial salary in Brussels 15 years ago. Can't do that in Dublin and you'd want at least double that to be able to even consider it.

What we have here are low salaries and high accommodation costs. Perhaps the whole low salary thing would not be such an issue in Ireland if the cost of accommodation which is most people's biggest outlay was correspondingly low.

twowheelsonly

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Nope I was hired into a particular branch of IT, Unlike the universal role of Clerical officer which is a general dog's body role helping out someone else. You known to free up their time from mundane activities to do something. I'm a Server Engineer if you are interested.

You're missing the point - Not every CO job is the same, just as not every IT job is the same but they all come under the one umbrella. Likewise everyone in the Army is a soldier but they don't all do the same job.

JillyQ wrote: »

Maybe it was. But then take another private sector thing in with private buses againist bus eireann again they are more successful and more profitable.

For every profitable route there's a (major) loss maker. If the private operations had to run those as well would they be so successful or would they have to increase prices to be viable ? The 2 o'clock bus from Castlecomer to Killenaule on a rainy Weds evening isn't quite the same as the No. 103 bus from Ashbourne to Dublin city centre .