Public sector pay increase

Kelly06

mikemac1 wrote: »

Isn't the salary for a graduate nurse 22k?

Its not a lot but lots of graduates start around that rate. A business grad entering an accountancy practice may start on less. Hotel junior duty managers work savage hours and they have 4 years of study same as nurses.

Nurses can lobby for more than 22k but its not a huge difference to other graduates. You may say they worked during placements but other degree courses have placements too

With super Annuation, pension levy and all the usual taxes that's a lot less that some one in the private sector would come out with. Fairly anti social hours too. Wouldn't want to work in those conditions for 350 a week !

Jack Nicklaus

Teachers are a bad example as they only work part-time.

Equally, graduate nurses earn what most trainee professionals earn so again they're not a great example.

The pay cuts of 2008/2009 were just the trimming of some of the wild excesses of the period leading up to then. We've seen zero inflation since, so there are no grounds for salary increases.

Kelly06

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course they could, why couldn't they?

Because they should be the protector of its citizens rights !

Iwasfrozen

Kelly06 wrote: »

Because they should be the protector of its citizens rights !

De-unionization is not an infringement of citizen rights.

smash

Kelly06 wrote: »

Because they should be the protector of its citizens rights !

To protect it's citizens it should demand the abolishment of unions. No more bullshít strike action that fcuks up the whole country.

SMASH IRISH WATER

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So.. 4 posts across 2 threads and your message is "I want everything for free and someone else should pay for it" ?

Interesting.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

De-unionizing is not an infringement of citizen rights.

Are you thick?

How can the countries constitution guarantee workers union rights and then decide not to recognise unions. Wake up.

SMASH IRISH WATER

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

De-unionizing is not an infringement of citizen rights.

Are you thick?

How can the countries constitution guarantee workers union rights and then decide not to recognise unions. Wake up.

smash

SMASH IRISH WATER wrote: »

How can the countries constitution guarantee workers union rights and then decide not to recognise unions. Wake up.

It does not guarantee workers union rights. It guarantees workers the right to join a union!

mikemac1

You may not know Gleesons of Borrisoleigh but you know their products: Tipperary Water, Finches and Devils Bit Cider.

Let drivers some with over a decades service go in their depot in Ballyfermot and replaced them the next morning with agency driver.

They didn't let everyone go of course, it was SIPTU members who were told their job didn't exist but there was enough work for an agency worker the next day.

Gleesons were taken to court by SIPTU and the workers won though they were still out of a job.

Posters here calling for abolishment of unions but who protects a worker like these drivers? Could be your job some day

Iwasfrozen

SMASH IRISH WATER wrote: »

Are you thick?

How can the countries constitution guarantee workers union rights and then decide not to recognise unions. Wake up.

No, I'm not thick.

The constitution guarantees the rights of workers to join unions, it doesn't guarantee employer co-operation. The government in this case being the employer.

mikemac1 wrote: »

You may not know Gleesons of Borrisoleigh but you know their products: Tipperary Water, Finches and Devils Bit Cider.

Let drivers some with over a decades service go in their depot in Ballyfermot redundant and replaced them the next morning with agency driver.

They didn't let everyone go of course, it was SIPTU members who were told their job didn't exist but there was enough work for an agency worker the next day.

Gleesons were taken to court by SIPTU and the the workers won though they were still out of a job.

Posters here calling for abolishment of unions but who protects a worker like these drivers? Could be your job some day

We're specifically talking about the public sector here.

GLaDOS

SMASH IRISH WATER wrote: »

Are you thick?

Mod: Leave out the personal abuse

smash

mikemac1 wrote: »

They didn't let everyone go of course, it was SIPTU members who were told their job didn't exist but there was enough work for an agency worker the next day.

Gleesons were taken to court by SIPTU and the the workers won though they were still out of a job.

Posters here calling for abolishment of unions but who protects a worker like these drivers? Could be your job some day

If these workers knew just a little bit about employment law they wouldn't need a union to do this for them. I think I learned this stuff in junior cert business studies...

SMASH IRISH WATER

smash wrote: »

If these workers knew just a little bit about employment law they wouldn't need a union to do this for them. I think I learned this stuff in junior cert business studies...

Ya because a truck driver armed with a junior cert law textbook would be well able to take a large employer to court. No bother to him.

mikemac1

smash wrote: »

If these workers knew just a little bit about employment law they wouldn't need a union to do this for them. I think I learned this stuff in junior cert business studies...

Pay dues to a union or ask your unemployed comrades to get together a few thousand for a solicitor to represent everyone.

A good employment law solicitor won't do that for free and the employer will certainly be ready to outwit a group of drivers. Some of them never did the inter cert!

smash

SMASH IRISH WATER wrote: »

Ya because a truck driver armed with a junior cert law textbook would be well able to take a large employer to court. No bother to him.

It's actually very easy to do. And it doesn't take much to learn your rights.

Uncle Ben

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

My point is they shouldn't and de-unionizng the sector would allow for much greater flexibility to the benefit of the nation as a whole.

I honestly don't know what greater flexibility there would be. Again apart from nurses and some teaching unions there has been no disruption, people are working longer hours, pay etc has been cut,new technologies utilised. I really don't know what you are looking for.

Where I see a problem is within the performance indicators system. My job now has become a box ticking exercise. Perform X number of surveys per quarter. Perform Y number of inspections per month. Categorise different problems into different excell or word documents and have the figures ready for the mid term or annual reviews. Make sure the required number are done within the timeframe allowed.
A person could go off on a limb and work on their own initiative however that work would not be recognised. There is no register available to define such works. The system in my section is now to wait for the jobs to come down from Dept level and do the amount required. Do too few and you won't get the increment,do too many and you're pulled back!
The system needs changing from the top down but it won't happen. And just to address your point that's not the fault of the unions. That's the fault of management.

SMASH IRISH WATER

smash wrote: »

It's actually very easy to do. And it doesn't take much to learn your rights.

You've lodged cases in the high court and represented yourself before then? Never knew it was so easy. Someone should tell those lads in funny wigs and dressing gowns.

smash

SMASH IRISH WATER wrote: »

You've lodged cases in the high court and represented yourself before then? Never knew it was so easy. Someone should tell those lads in funny wigs and dressing gowns.

Do you read your own posts? Do you grasp the concept of... anything?

You engage with a solicitor and they deal with it! Even SIPTU engage with solicitors to act on behalf of their members?

Kelly06

SMASH IRISH WATER wrote: »

You've lodged cases in the high court and represented yourself before then? Never knew it was so easy. Someone should tell those lads in funny wigs and dressing gowns.

It would probably be the rights commissioner or labour relations commission rather than the high court that would hear matters in ralation to employment

SMASH IRISH WATER

smash wrote: »

Do you read your own posts? Do you grasp the concept of... anything?

You engage with a solicitor and they deal with it! Even SIPTU engage with solicitors to act on behalf of their members?

And pray tell how is an individual truck driver going to afford paying solicitor/barrister fees?

What they could do is band together collectively, and if one of them needed legal counsel and services this collective could pay for it. If they had enough of them, they could even hold a legal professional on retainer to consult them on a broad plethora of issues.

smash

SMASH IRISH WATER wrote: »

And pray tell how is an individual truck driver going to afford paying solicitor/barrister fees?

What they could do is band together collectively, and if one of them needed legal counsel and services this collective could pay for it. If they had enough of them, they could even hold a legal professional on retainer to consult them on a broad plethora of issues.

No win no fee. It's very easy and it's how a lot of solicitors work...

Iwasfrozen

Uncle Ben wrote: »

I honestly don't know what greater flexibility there would be. Again apart from nurses and some teaching unions there has been no disruption, people are working longer hours, pay etc has been cut,new technologies utilised. I really don't know what you are looking for.

I want to see an end to across the board public sector pay increases while we're in deficit. I want to see public sector workers sacked if they're rubbish at their job.

SMASH IRISH WATER

smash wrote: »

No win no fee. It's very easy and it's how a lot of solicitors work...

That's generally for personal injury claims. You'll do very well to find a no win/no fee employment lawyer. You're talking through your hat.

smash

SMASH IRISH WATER wrote: »

That's generally for personal injury claims. You'll do very well to find a no win/no fee employment lawyer. You're talking through your hat.

No it's not. Given their case, they'd have found a solicitor no problem.

Kelly06

SMASH IRISH WATER wrote: »

That's generally for personal injury claims. You'll do very well to find a no win/no fee employment lawyer. You're talking through your hat.

This is correct you won't find solicitors taking on a pro bono case without a pretty good chance of winning.

SMASH IRISH WATER

smash wrote: »

No it's not. Given their case, they'd have found a solicitor no problem.

Show me some examples so.

smash

Kelly06 wrote: »

This is correct you won't find solicitors taking on a pro bono case without a pretty good chance of winning.

An initial consultation fee costs peanuts. The solicitor will tell you if there's a case there or not. Given the scale of the case, a solicitor would take it on.

Kelly06

smash wrote: »

An initial consultation fee costs peanuts. The solicitor will tell you if there's a case there or not. Given the scale of the case, a solicitor would take it on.

They would, and they would charge you the appropriate hourly rate. I'm not sure you can get an order for costs against your employer in the lrc or rights commissioner. Friend of mine brought a case and his solicitor charged 400 for a half day appearance. Legal representation is not required I personally know people who have represented themselves.

Anyways we are getting off topic ....

Uncle Ben

Most IR stuff is dealt with by shop stewards and branch officials on a regular if not daily basis.
When it comes to factory closures and lay offs all of the unions have their own experienced legal heads.
As someone else said we're drifting off side.

NIMAN

I listened to the report from the Garda conference earlier, and how a 2% pay rise would not be acceptable as its too low.

Did I miss something? Is the country still not in debt to the tune of €180 billion?
Why does everyone seem to think that its 2000 all over again, and we have money to throw around us?

Surely we have learned something from the past?

twowheelsonly

Icaras wrote: »

Still don't deserve it

That's right... absolutely none of them do... :rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Public sector workers, when you take into consideration the level of education and training needed for the job and the level of stress the job implies still get paid more than their private sector counterparts.

Depending on the 'counterpart'. In many instances there is no counterpart, in many others they deserve to get paid more.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

.......
The problem with the public sector is unions, the unions threw the younger generation under the bus in order to protect their own salaries.

The solution isn't throwing more money at the problem, the solution is to break the unions, strip the older generation of their protection and re-distribute funds to the more junior staff.

I totally agree with the first part, not the second part though. I work in a Department where our 'High and Mighty Overlords' (most of whom never actually worked in our job) tried to railroad through all sorts of rubbish and tried to unilaterally over-ride the Haddington Rd agreement. Without the Union our job would certainly be far worse and we'd be taking it large from people just trying to justify their own positions.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

..... In what private sector industry could a person with a BA earn 60k with experience alone?.....
.

Loads actually, either with or without a BA. As you get older you realise that a BA is like a Leaving Cert or an Inter Cert. Matters not a jot !!

That's why companies websites / blurb etc regularly advertise as having "75 years experience of x/y/z/" or "Jimmy Mac has 25 years experience in the company/industry" etc. That's what people want to know, not if he has a BA, AB, BAAB, or just B.

kupus wrote: »

....
Useless good for nothing workshy hypocrites is all they are. And that's me putting it mildly.

Ya, they are. All of them. :rolleyes:

You should mention that to the next Nurse that's looking after you or the Ambulance Driver that's picking you up off the road, or the Fireman that's cutting you out of your car, or the Revenue Official that's explaining how to go about making your claim.....

cocker5 wrote: »

Actually I hate to point out not all private sector worker get paid over time! That's a myth! I know lots of people and their core working hours are 9-6.. But the work min 8-8 min each day and dont take breaks .. And eat lunch at their desk.. It's expected in the private sector in alot of jobs - myself included.
So they are doing three hours per day over time so 15 hours per week working for free., it's a reality I'm Afraid!

Overtime what's that?

And I know lots of people that don't do anything like that - they'll work the hours they're contracted for and be gone out the door on the button every time. Doesn't mean that everyone is the same though.

deseil wrote: »

I can assure you the fire services are the most well paid, and looked after group of the whole public sector.

No they're not !!! The Government 'Advisers' are !!

To be fair, as far as I'm concerned Firemen, Gardai, Prison Officers and a few others don't get paid for what they do but what they're prepared to do. They're jobs that a lot of people won't do and they have a lot of crap to deal with.




Anyway, I'm off to decide to do with my 2% (minus Tax, PRSI, USC, Mandatory Pension Contribution and Mandatory Pension Levy on that Mandatory Pension - so really it's closer to 0.7% in my pocket)
If anyone has any suggestions as to where I could invest my unexpected windfall they might let me know.. Thanks in advance...

evolving_doors

twowheelsonly wrote: »

[...]

Anyway, I'm off to decide to do with my 2% (minus Tax, PRSI, USC, Mandatory Pension Contribution and Mandatory Pension Levy on that Mandatory Pension - so really it's closer to 0.7% in my pocket)
If anyone has any suggestions as to where I could invest my unexpected windfall they might let me know.. Thanks in advance...

I think what some members of the private sector forget is that people in the public sector spend money in the private sector too!

scary

Specialun wrote: »

Only one woman out of the 3 in the office "looks after" it

1) she finished early at 2.30 ( usually finishes at 4)
2) was on break ( 1 time i waited over 45 mins, it was 11am)
3) rang in sick

Same thing occurs in the private sector, have you never gone sick, had a break or taken leave?

osarusan

Specialun wrote: »

4 working days in a row ive gone to a certain public sector institute to get a copy of old results. Only one woman out of the 3 in the office "looks after" it

1) she finished early at 2.30 ( usually finishes at 4)
2) was on break ( 1 time i waited over 45 mins, it was 11am)
3) rang in sick


Must go again 2moro for 5th time

#justsaying

I called up an insurance company the other day looking for a quote on a car. The said they'd take all my details and get back to me within 48 hours, so I gave them all the info and specs on the car.

1) The hadn't got back to me by the time I rang them 5 working days later.
2) The person who I spoke to couldn't find my details anywhere. He took the details and called back within 24 hours and said he had a quote for me but need to confirm with that particular company, and that he'd call the next day after he's spoken to them.
3) he hasn't called back since.

Must call them again tomorrow. My private sector anecdote trumps yours.

#neversurviveintherealworld

scary

mikemac1 wrote: »

Isn't the salary for a graduate nurse 22k?

Its not a lot but lots of graduates start around that rate. A business grad entering an accountancy practice may start on less. Hotel junior duty managers work savage hours and they have 4 years of study same as nurses.

Nurses can lobby for more than 22k but its not a huge difference to other graduates. You may say they worked during placements but other degree courses have placements too

The point I was making is that kids out of school are been paid more in the private sector (where I Work) without qualifications yet people say the PS are over paid.

Señor Fancy Pants

scary wrote: »

The point I was making is that kids out of school are been paid more in the private sector (where I Work) without qualifications yet people say the PS are over paid.

A friend of mine and myself started work the same time. I in the public sector and him in the private sector. (I had the LC, he didn't)

He was making more in 2 weeks than I was in a month. Flexible hours, nice car, living in an apartment in the City. I'm in the job 15 years and I'm still not earning a week what he was earning on his first week on the job

It's all relative. There are extremely hard working underpaid staff in both sectors. There are also lazy idiots on big wages in both sectors.

All I have seen over the last 8 years is a big divide between both sectors. Fabricated by the media and widened by the Government.

Most people who chose to join the PS in the past chose job security over a larger pay scale. In my case, I did what job I wanted to do. There's no equivalent in the private sector.

I don't have a union, I have a "representative association" which I don't subscribe to. It's pretty much powerless and piggy backs off actual unions. We can't strike or any of that stuff.

A lot of people who have dealt with the PS are angry at opening hours, inefficiencies, lack of perceived work ethic etc.....I feel the same about private sector shops and companies. Negative staff experiences are not exclusively a PS problem.

Yes I know that the tax payer pays the PS wages so services should be better. I agree. Also, my wages which I use in the private sector in turn keep private sector people in employment.

It's a ****ty circle and we just all have to get over it.

test3test

NIMAN wrote: »

I listened to the report from the Garda conference earlier, and how a 2% pay rise would not be acceptable as its too low.

Did I miss something? Is the country still not in debt to the tune of €180 billion?
Why does everyone seem to think that its 2000 all over again, and we have money to throw around us?

Surely we have learned something from the past?

Well said. The public sector in this country is already way overpaid, both compared to the private sector and public services overseas or across the border.

test3test

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We are paying for an over staffed, over paid public service.


The right thing to do would be to keep the embargo on recruitment and hold pay as is for 2 more years. That would be in the country's interest.

Well said. If the FG government caves in and gives our overpaid public servants, in their secure and pensionable jobs, I will not vote for them. The private sector in most of the country is much worse off.

Iwasfrozen

benny_mountain wrote: »

but the goverment has to award them a pay rise as if they dont two things will happen

labour will be wiped out and besides , fianna fail will promise the public sector even more than whatever the current goverment gives them

all parties vigorously court the public sector in this country , even though public servants saw much less pain during the recession , their plight is given a much broader scope , such is their status

Hence why public sector pay should be legally bound to cost of living.

test3test

benny_mountain wrote: »

but the goverment has to award them a pay rise as if they dont two things will happen

labour will be wiped out

They will be wiped out anyway, as ordinary people have paid increased taxes (usc, water taxes, increased dirt, increased vat etc ) to pay the cossetted public servants and their pensioners.

benny_mountain wrote: »

fianna fail will promise the public sector even more than whatever the current goverment gives them

I doubt, Fianna Fail know that average private sector pay is so much less than average public sector pay for the same work, and there are a lot more people in the private sector. Many of whom lost their jobs and pensions incidentally.

benny_mountain wrote: »

all parties vigorously court the public sector in this country , even though public servants saw much less pain during the recession , their plight is given a much broader scope , such is their status

times are a changin'. In the football changing rooms recently all agreed , even 2 civil servants, there should be no public sector wage increases for at least another few years.

deseil

test3test wrote: »

Well said. The public sector in this country is already way overpaid, both compared to the private sector and public services overseas or across the border.

Not when you compare net pay. These stats comparing what public sector workers get paid are ridiculous, I'd love to see pay in your hand comparisons.

test3test

Any party that gives the overpaid public servants even more will pay in the elections.

deseil

test3test wrote: »

They will be wiped out anyway, as ordinary people have paid increased taxes (usc, water taxes, increased dirt, increased vat etc ) to pay the cossetted public servants and their pensioners.



I doubt, Fianna Fail know that average private sector pay is so much less than average public sector pay for the same work, and there are a lot more people in the private sector. Many of whom lost their jobs and pensions incidentally.

Really you were in the same changing room with civil servants? I thought they would have had more plush ones considering they earn so much more. What kind of car did they have? Must have had great cars and football boots too...

scary

Do we actually have any like for like wage comparisons for the PS and private sector? If I've missed this can someone point me in the right direction.

omega man

osarusan wrote: »

I called up an insurance company the other day looking for a quote on a car. The said they'd take all my details and get back to me within 48 hours, so I gave them all the info and specs on the car.

1) The hadn't got back to me by the time I rang them 5 working days later.
2) The person who I spoke to couldn't find my details anywhere. He took the details and called back within 24 hours and said he had a quote for me but need to confirm with that particular company, and that he'd call the next day after he's spoken to them.
3) he hasn't called back since.

Must call them again tomorrow. My private sector anecdote trumps yours.

#neversurviveintherealworld

Yes but you see you can call up any number of their competitors and simply not give them your business if you aren't satisfied with service levels. No such choice with PS however....

evolving_doors

test3test wrote: »

Any party that gives the overpaid public servants even more will pay in the elections.

Even more!!! I think at the very least people in the public service are talking about pay restoration... not increases!

FEMPI/Croke Park/Haddington road anyone?

test3test

test3test wrote: »

Well said. The public sector in this country is already way overpaid,

Absolute and utter bull, the public sector makes up some of the most important workers in the country and at the moment a large number are under paid for their qualifications, responsibilities and the work they do.

Keep pay low (or reduce it further like some less than knowledgable individuals want) and we will end up having second or third rate people doing vital jobs because as it is people are already turning their nose up at the public sector for for better pay and benefits in the private sector.

Jawgap

SMASH IRISH WATER wrote: »

That's generally for personal injury claims. You'll do very well to find a no win/no fee employment lawyer. You're talking through your hat.

Contingency fees are generally available for any case where damages are available and plenty of solicitors will take on employment law cases.

The only problem maybe that if going before an EAT you may get damages but costs are not award able therefore the contingency fee would come out of the damages awarded.

test3test

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

in the public sector you can have teachers with ordinary degrees earning 60k. In what private sector industry could a person with a BA earn 60k with experience alone?

It's madness, imagine how more efficient the public sector would be if it were de-unionized.

Correct. Our public sector wages are mad high here. A cousin works in the public service in the North and wages there are much lower, and more in line with the private sector.

Jawgap

test3test wrote: »

Correct. Our public sector wages are mad high here. A cousin works in the public service in the North and wages there are much lower, and more in line with the private sector.

Excellent, if I go back into the PS can I get paid at the same rate as they do in the North?

Can I also get the NHS? Their cost of living? Their rates of taxation? Their free education? Their local government services?