Public sector pay increase

scary

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

In what private sector industry could a person with a BA earn 60k with experience alone?

I earn more than this in the private sector and I just have my leaving cert, experience is very underrated.

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Excellent, if I go back into the PS can I get paid at the same rate as they do in the North?

Can I also get the NHS? Their cost of living? Their rates of taxation? Their free education? Their local government services?

That's not an answer to why Ireland has some of the highest paid public sector/service workers in the EU.

test3test

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

Absolute and utter bull, the public sector makes up some of the most important workers in the country and at the moment a large number are under paid for their qualifications, responsibilities and the work they do.

rubbish. Survey after survey says the opposite. For example, "Despite the salary cuts of recent years, their salaries remain among the highest of more than 30 countries worldwide."

"The international comparison is base don salaries in the 2012 year and the report notes that teacher salaries in a number o f countries, including Ireland, were significantly affected by the 2008 economic crisis.
In the interests of transparency between currencies and living costs, converts salaries using a measure based on purchasing power in different countries.
Using this measure, the salaries of Irish teachers at the top of the pay scale is given as the equivalent of €48,430, compared with an EU average of about €35,500 and an OECD average of €36,415"

Google " teachers wages ireland"

CarpeDiem85

test3test wrote: »

Correct. Our public sector wages are mad high here. A cousin works in the public service in the North and wages there are much lower, and more in line with the private sector.

The cost of living is much much lower in NI though.

BoJack Horseman

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

The cost of living is much much lower in NI though.

Not much lower.

Slightly lower.... Single figures percentage wise.

darkpagandeath

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

The cost of living is much much lower in NI though.

Why does Ireland have some of the highest paid public service/sector workers in the EZ/EU ?

CarpeDiem85

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Not much lower.

Slightly lower.... Single figures percentage wise.

Believe me, I live in a border county. Everything is so much cheaper in NI.

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That's not an answer to why Ireland has some of the highest paid public sector/service workers in the EU.

We have high rates of pay in this country in a lot of areas because the cost of living is high. People may be paid less in the UK, but - according to the OECD - household disposable income is higher there then here.

If I was still in the PS I'd happily take a pay cut if somehow my disposable income was going to increase.

BoJack Horseman

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

Believe me, I live in a border county. Everything is so much cheaper in NI.

Like what?

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=Ireland

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

My OH works in a dole office. They had a Clerical Officer in on a temporary contract who jacked it in after 3 weeks because it wasn't paying him to drive to work and take a lunch with him. A single guy. Go figure.

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

We have high rates of pay in this country in a lot of areas because the cost of living is high. People may be paid less in the UK, but - according to the OECD - household disposable income is higher there then here.

If I was still in the PS I'd happily take a pay cut if somehow my disposable income was going yo increase.

The cost of living is not that high, It certainly does not warrant the exorbitant wage difference. The cost of living to what people are paid is well in favour of high wages in the PS. There is plenty of information about showing this historically. It's a well known fact to be fair.

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

The cost of living is not that high, It certainly does not warrant the exorbitant wage difference. The cost of living to what people are paid is well in favour of high wages in the PS. There is plenty of information about showing this historically. It's a well known fact to be fair.

Ok, if one person is paid more than another, and the first person ends up with less cash in their hand than the second what does that tell you about the taxation and cost of living experienced by the first person?

Plus it's funny how when the OECD issue a report critical of the PS it seized on as being gospel, but when their figures show something else they're minimised :rolleyes:

jcon1913

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Let's not let the fact that a huge portion of public sector workers are on pretty crap pay get in the way of a good rabble!

The public service were paid 20% more than comparatively qualified private sector workers before the pay reductions when all elements were taken into account. ( pensions etc ) After the pay reductions pension levy etc the public service were paid the same as equivalent private sector workers.

Source - John Fitzgerald former head of the governments economic advisers the ESRI

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Ok, if one person is paid more than another, and the first person ends up with less cash in their hand than the second what does that tell you about the taxation and cost of living experienced by the first person?

Plus it's funny how when the OECD issue a report critical of the PS it seized on as being gospel, but when their figures show something else they're minimised :rolleyes:

Why was the Troika banging on about PS pay for so long ?

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why was the Troika banging on about PS pay for so long ?

Because it needed to be reduced......just like SW rates needed to be reduced......taxes needed to be increased (and the tax base broadened)......IW needed to be set up......etc etc

Plus the decision to reduce the public pay bill involved reducing rates of pay - a more efficient way, imo, would've been to reduce headcount and reshape the PS to meet modern demands.


Btw, the troika are gone

scary

jcon1913 wrote: »

The public service were paid 20% more than comparatively qualified private sector workers before the pay reductions when all elements were taken into account. ( pensions etc ) After the pay reductions pension levy etc the public service were paid the same as equivalent private sector workers.

Source - John Fitzgerald former head of the governments economic advisers the ESRI

if this is the case why all the arguing?, or do people really want the PS workers to be on lower wages than the private sector?

darkpagandeath

scary wrote: »

if this is the case why all the arguing?, or do people really want the PS workers to be on lower wages than the private sector?

They want pay restoration not pay increase in line with inflation and Private sector. And they are not being paid less it said the same. You can guarantee after the restoration they would still be asking for a 2% increase because the private sector is going to do it.

Jawgap

jcon1913 wrote: »

The public service were paid 20% more than comparatively qualified private sector workers before the pay reductions when all elements were taken into account. ( pensions etc ) After the pay reductions pension levy etc the public service were paid the same as equivalent private sector workers.

Source - John Fitzgerald former head of the governments economic advisers the ESRI

Not this former public servant - I was netting the same salary as someone with comparable education and experience in private practice. What I wasn't getting was an opportunity to earn bonuses; my health insurance paid for; my professional indemnity insurance paid for; a car; corporate club membership; etc etc

Ok the State shouldn't pay for 'trimmings' but it should pay for indemnity insurance or not insist on tied arrangements for people required to have it.

And out of interest, my employer covering my health and indemnity insurances was the equivalent of a €10k salary bump to me.

scary

darkpagandeath wrote: »

They want pay restoration not pay increase in line with inflation and Private sector. And they are not being paid less it said the same. You can guarantee after the restoration they would still be asking for a 2% increase because the private sector is going to do it.

and alot of them deserve it

darkpagandeath

scary wrote: »

and alot of them deserve it

Who deserves being paid more than the norm ? pay increase in line with inflation and private sector benchmark.

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Who deserves being paid more than the norm ? pay increase in line with inflation and private sector benchmark.

What's that?

What happens if there is no comparator in the private sector?

Who for example, do you compare an EOD officer in the Army to? Or a senior detective in the Guards? Or an A&E nurse?

barneystinson

Jawgap wrote: »

What's that?

What happens if there is no comparator in the private sector?

Who for example, do you compare an EOD officer in the Army to? Or a senior detective in the Guards? Or an A&E nurse?

I'd love to be benchmarked to my private sector equivalent, I'd get a lot more than 2% increase - where do I sign up!

darkpagandeath

barneystinson wrote: »

I'd love to be benchmarked to my private sector equivalent, I'd get a lot more than 2% increase - where do I sign up!

Yeah lets ignore the data that says that Irish Public service/sector are some of the most highly paid in the EZ/EU If not the world. It's all just begrudgery ....

Sleepy

If there are to be increases, what would seem to make sense would be a UK style "Dublin allowance". It seems absurd that a public servant living in a city where the cost of housing is double/triple the cost of what it would be elsewhere in the country earns the same as their rural-based equivalent.

Many PS workers that would be on the pigs back in Mayo/Wexford etc. would probably be struggling on the same pay-grade in Artane or Deansgrange.

(obviously, for some, a decrease of the rural-based PS workers would make more sense but that's hardly going to happen in an election year)

barneystinson

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Yeah lets ignore the data that says that Irish Public service/sector are some of the most highly paid in the EZ/EU If not the world. It's all just begrudgery ....

Where did I say that? PM me and I'll show you exactly what I mean, but I'm not going to identify myself on a public thread.

evolving_doors

scary wrote: »

Do we actually have any like for like wage comparisons for the PS and private sector? If I've missed this can someone point me in the right direction.

2009 Cso employment survey is as close as you'll ever get

scary

Gebgbegb wrote: »

2009 Cso employment survey is as close as you'll ever get

So other than averages it's all just speculative so.

jcon1913

scary wrote: »

if this is the case why all the arguing?, or do people really want the PS workers to be on lower wages than the private sector?

Nobody wants to beat another sector up financially - but to be equal would be okay dont you think. There is no value attributed to the permanency of public service jobs by the way.

jcon1913

Jawgap wrote: »

Not this former public servant - I was netting the same salary as someone with comparable education and experience in private practice. What I wasn't getting was an opportunity to earn bonuses; my health insurance paid for; my professional indemnity insurance paid for; a car; corporate club membership; etc etc

Ok the State shouldn't pay for 'trimmings' but it should pay for indemnity insurance or not insist on tied arrangements for people required to have it.

And out of interest, my employer covering my health and indemnity insurances was the equivalent of a €10k salary bump to me.

Hard cases make bad law. John Fitzgerald was talking averages.

BTW you could close the door behind you in work on a Friday evening and be sure you had a job to go back to on Monday, a luxury not all private sector workers had over the last few years.

jcon1913

Jawgap wrote: »

What's that?

What happens if there is no comparator in the private sector?

Who for example, do you compare an EOD officer in the Army to? Or a senior detective in the Guards? Or an A&E nurse?

senior detective - senior security employee in Securitas / Group 4 et c etc.

Nurse - private sector nurse

jcon1913

barneystinson wrote: »

I'd love to be benchmarked to my private sector equivalent, I'd get a lot more than 2% increase - where do I sign up!

At your local private employer. Its a free country my friend.

You should apply for a job straight away. With your experience you'd be snapped up in minutes.

jcon1913

scary wrote: »

So other than averages it's all just speculative so.

Average are not speculative.

Riskymove

jcon1913 wrote: »

senior detective - senior security employee in Securitas / Group 4 et c etc.

give me a break!

Riskymove

jcon1913 wrote: »

Average are not speculative.

correct....they have, however, been picked up and waved around as meaning a lot more than they do.

jcon1913

Riskymove wrote: »

give me a break!

What - you have better comparatives?

jcon1913

Riskymove wrote: »

correct....they have, however, been picked up and waved around as meaning a lot more than they do.

And your alternative is to muddy the water with your own opinion, without any meaningful analysis, or context.

Public service workers were paid 20% more than comparably qualified private sector workers before the public sector pay cuts.

That's a fact from a respected individual in a respected organisation. End of.

Mr. teddywinkles

What amazes me is that people think the country is back in the black. Time reverse everything lads. Tax cuts for all!
Did all the the billions upon billions of debt just vanish down a black hole that people on here have been bitchin about for the last 8 year. Magic is it?

JillyQ

jcon1913 wrote: »

senior detective - senior security employee in Securitas / Group 4 et c etc.

Nurse - private sector nurse

Sorry you are very wrong to compare a senior detective with a senior employee of a security company there roles are vastly different.

Riskymove

jcon1913 wrote: »

What - you have better comparatives?

if you really think a senior employee in a security company does a comparable job to a senior Garda Detective then I can only assume you have little idea what a detective does.

jcon1913

jcon1913 wrote: »

Public service workers were paid 20% more than comparably qualified private sector workers before the public sector pay cuts.

I don't see the issue (if it is the case, but I think the figures are being massaged to suit an agenda), in a lot of instances they are doing a job that warrants higher pay, of course this will be ignored by the rabble brigade. Also private sector workers in general have much greater opportunities from promotion and wage increases as they gain more experience.

JillyQ wrote: »

Sorry you are very wrong to compare a senior detective with a senior employee of a security company there roles are vastly different.

Its the equivalent of comparing a pilot to a bus driver.

Riskymove

jcon1913 wrote: »

Public service workers were paid 20% more than comparably qualified private sector workers before the public sector pay cuts.

that study had little to do with comparable jobs, it was, as you say about how much people with a certain level of qualification earned

TerrorFirmer

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

Its the equivalent of comparing a pilot to a bus driver.

It just reinforces the point that most people expressing outrage don't really have a clue what they're talking about.

Another good point is when people moan about how we've one of the highest paid public sectors in Europe.

The fact that we also have one of the highest average private sector wages gets conveniently ignored.

jcon1913

JillyQ wrote: »

Sorry you are very wrong to compare a senior detective with a senior employee of a security company there roles are vastly different.

Please expand.

jcon1913

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

I don't see the issue (if it is the case, but I think the figures are being massaged to suit an agenda), in a lot of instances they are doing a job that warrants higher pay, of course this will be ignored by the rabble brigade. Also private sector workers in general have much greater opportunities from promotion and wage increases as they gain more experience.



Its the equivalent of comparing a pilot to a bus driver.

With respect a senior person in Group 4 managing 100s of employees is prob doing similar things. You think every senior guard is Colombo?

twowheelsonly

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That's not an answer to why Ireland has some of the highest paid public sector/service workers in the EU.

And some of the highest paid Private Sector workers as well..

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why does Ireland have some of the highest paid public service/sector workers in the EZ/EU ?

Because they were benchmarked against the Private Sector when the gap became too much.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why was the Troika banging on about PS pay for so long ?

They weren't... Yes, they were on about it but it was our own overlords and populists like Eddie Hobbs that kept banging on about it. Likewise the water charges - the Troika never insisted that we had to charge for water but our own puppets used the Troika as an excuse to impose that.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Hence why public sector pay should be legally bound to cost of living.

So everyone would be paid the same?? How does that work??
If it's relative to increases on current wages then you do realise that a lot of PS workers would be due massive increases - a lot more than 2%.

jcon1913 wrote: »

senior detective - senior security employee in Securitas / Group 4 et c etc.

I think you just lost that argument..


I'd be interested in knowing how much people are worth, in particular in comparison to their own job and how much they would expect to be paid for doing the same job.

How much is a Garda patrolling Temple Bar or Sheriff Street worth?
How much is a nurse in the Mater A & E worth?
How much is the Prison Officer in Mountjoy worth?
How much is a Clerk in the Tax Office worth?
How much is the Chef in the Shelbourne worth?
How much is an IT worker with KPMG worth?
How much is a washing machine repair man worth?

etc, etc....

It's all very well saying someone on 50k is overpaid while you're on 45k doing a completely different and possibly lower (or higher!!) stress job.

jcon1913

twowheelsonly wrote: »

And some of the highest paid Private Sector workers as well..



Because they were benchmarked against the Private Sector when the gap became too much.



They weren't... Yes, they were on about it but it was our own overlords and populists like Eddie Hobbs that kept banging on about it. Likewise the water charges - the Troika never insisted that we had to charge for water but our own puppets used the Troika as an excuse to impose that.



So everyone would be paid the same?? How does that work??
If it's relative to increases on current wages then you do realise that a lot of PS workers would be due massive increases - a lot more than 2%.



I think you just lost that argument..


I'd be interested in knowing how much people are worth, in particular in comparison to their own job and how much they would expect to be paid for doing the same job.

How much is a Garda patrolling Temple Bar or Sheriff Street worth?
How much is a nurse in the Mater A & E worth?
How much is the Prison Officer in Mountjoy worth?
How much is a Clerk in the Tax Office worth?
How much is the Chef in the Shelbourne worth?
How much is an IT worker with KPMG worth?
How much is a washing machine repair man worth?

etc, etc....

It's all very well saying someone on 50k is overpaid while you're on 45k doing a completely different and possibly lower (or higher!!) stress job.

Now pick some comparable jobs.

jcon1913

Riskymove wrote: »

if you really think a senior employee in a security company does a comparable job to a senior Garda Detective then I can only assume you have little idea what a detective does.

Please expand

Jawgap

jcon1913 wrote: »

Please expand

A senior employee in a security firm focuses on protecting the company or client.

A senior detective focuses on protecting society, detecting crime and compiling cases to allow due punishment to be dished out.

When I worked as a regulator my job was to make sure the regulated entities followed the rules so as to protect the public - now it's to minimise the cost of compliance for my clients.

Jawgap

jcon1913 wrote: »

senior detective - senior security employee in Securitas / Group 4 et c etc.

Nurse - private sector nurse

How many EDs are run by private companies? By extension who do you compare an ED nurse or a consultant in Emergency Medicine to?

Who do EOD personnel get compared to?

ATCOs?

Etc

Etc

jmayo

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It just reinforces the point that most people expressing outrage don't really have a clue what they're talking about.

Another good point is when people moan about how we've one of the highest paid public sectors in Europe.

The fact that we also have one of the highest average private sector wages gets conveniently ignored.

It would be interesting to take out the multinationals and see how that figure changes.
I would hazard a guess we have quiet a high precentage of pretty technical jobs in our private sector compared to say some other countries.

Jawgap wrote: »

A senior employee in a security firm focuses on protecting the company or client.

A senior detective focuses on protecting society, detecting crime and compiling cases to allow due punishment to be dished out.

When I worked as a regulator my job was to make sure the regulated entities followed the rules so as to protect the public - now it's to minimise the cost of compliance for my clients.

Someone who admits to being a regulator of some sort in Ireland :eek:
I can't actually think of many of our regulatory authorities that haven't majorily screwed up.
Building, financial, health regulators have all majorily screwed up in this country and indeed cost lives.
About the only one that has pretty good record I can think of is food.