Public sector pay increase

JillyQ

jcon1913 wrote: »

Please expand.

The roles of the gardai & security companies are entirely different at times they are intertwined With the use of CCTV footage etc.
The job of senior managers in the private security industry is to get new business in for there respective employers, unlike dectectives where it is investigate criminal offences. How are the two compariable?

Jawgap

jmayo wrote: »

........



Someone who admits to being a regulator of some sort in Ireland :eek:
I can't actually think of many of our regulatory authorities that haven't majorily screwed up.
Building, financial, health regulators have all majorily screwed up in this country and indeed cost lives.
About the only one that has pretty good record I can think of is food.

Who was a regulator......

.....plus like the CIA (and our own country's public servants who operate in the realm of crime & security).......'our failures our known, our successes aren't'

scary

jcon1913 wrote: »

Average are not speculative.

I never said they were, but that's all that people can base this argument on,unless there is actual like for like comparisons, other than averages everything else is speculation.

twowheelsonly

jcon1913 wrote: »

Now pick some comparable jobs.

That's missing the point...

I don't want it as a likewise comparison. I want to see how much monetary value people would put on various other peoples jobs in comparison to their own. i.e. would you do that job for that money?

As a comparison, if that's your thing, is the IT worker worth more than the Prison Officer who is sitting at home this morning with 50/60 stitches in his face?

Is the Revenue Clerk worth more or less than the guy that came to fix your washing machine yesterday.

Everyone thinks that they should be paid well for what they do but in comparison to other jobs are you over or under paid??

BTW, Public Sector pay rates are out there but very few full time Private sector workers seem to be willing to declare what they actually earn, including benefits/perks or even declare what their jobs are!!

twowheelsonly

jcon1913 wrote: »

With respect a senior person in Group 4 managing 100s of employees is prob doing similar things. You think every senior guard is Colombo?

With respect a senior person in Group 4 managing 100s of employees is probably getting paid as much if not more than a Senior Detective, plus perks.

jcon1913

JillyQ wrote: »

The roles of the gardai & security companies are entirely different at times they are intertwined With the use of CCTV footage etc.
The job of senior managers in the private security industry is to get new business in for there respective employers, unlike dectectives where it is investigate criminal offences. How are the two compariable?

Do you base this on experience in work?

darkpagandeath

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It just reinforces the point that most people expressing outrage don't really have a clue what they're talking about.

Another good point is when people moan about how we've one of the highest paid public sectors in Europe.

The fact that we also have one of the highest average private sector wages gets conveniently ignored.

Yeah and public service wages are higher again than that .... Jesus...

Quin_Dub

It seems to me that all of this has boiled down to whether or not we can introduce Meritocracy in the PS.

Arguments about pay rates , Public vs. Private sector are largely moot.

In the private sector , an individuals salary, once they are established in the role/company has little to do with their qualifications or their tenure.. It's all about performance.

There have been numerous poster here saying that you can't really measure certain PS roles because they are so unique etc.. Frankly I couldn't disagree more..

They may not have comparable Private sector roles, but that doesn't matter.

Salary is driven by demand for the role and the competence (or better) of the person.. If there is no external demand for the role , then that becomes a lesser factor in terms of impact to salary. If you cannot pit a measurement of quality or performance on a role , then it's probably not needed to be brutally honest.

The fundamental issue that most people external to the PS have with salaries and costs in general is a perception of a lack of value on the money spent - Whether that's wasting money on redundant projects or seeming to over pay people for certain types of work..

What's needed to address that is transparency around how and why money is spent..

Being able to say that you pay Nurses X amount because they achieve certain criteria or perhaps more importantly that people get re-assigned or potentially made redundant if it's felt that they would be better utilised elsewhere or maybe that that the function or department is no longer needed..

Blanket pay rises (and pay cuts) make no sense and continue to drive the perception of a lack of accountability and proper financial management in the PS - That has to change.

If there is budget for a 2% increase in the PS pay-roll, then fine... But manage it like the private sector..

Does everyone deserve a 2% pay-rise ? - Absolutely not , some do , some probably deserve more , some perhaps deserve less than nothing...

Some people (the best performers) might get a 10% increase , other might get nothing and everyone else will get various levels in between..

The unions however , will fight this to the end , because.. In a meritocracy , you don't need unions , people get what they deserve , people see their value and the unions can no longer pretend to "fight for everyones rights" when in fact what they are doing is rewarding and promoting mediocrity.

JillyQ

jcon1913 wrote: »

Do you base this on experience in work?

Yes

jcon1913

twowheelsonly wrote: »

With respect a senior person in Group 4 managing 100s of employees is probably getting paid as much if not more than a Senior Detective, plus perks.

Probably do they deserve it?

jank

Public Sector Pay increased by 130% from 2000 to 2007. Now obviously this was unsustainable from both an expectation and budgetary position, it was one of the main reasons of the crash. Now that the economy has improved since the catastrophe of 2008 the Public Sector and their unions are having their hands out.

Public sector pay should be given over to an independent non political body. Of course the high level of PS pay and pensions is one of the reasons why we still have schools made up of prefabs. In general Irish levels of facilities compared to OECD counterparts is muck. Banged up Ford Feista's as police cars being an example. Yet the car cannot vote, the Garda in the car does so when push comes to shove the Gardai will rather increase their pay packet rather then get a better police car or a better uniform. This is the same across the board. Hence why we need to establish an independent Public sector pay body. Not benchmarking Mark II by the way but something that can assess wether or not pay increase are warranted or that money is better directed into facilities and projects. Like IT projects that can help some of the mess in the HSE or social welfare. Billions need to be spent bring up processes and departments up to speed with their OECD counterparts, yet those billions will be frittered away in voting buying exercises.

Iwasfrozen

twowheelsonly wrote: »

So everyone would be paid the same?? How does that work??
If it's relative to increases on current wages then you do realise that a lot of PS workers would be due massive increases - a lot more than 2%.

What in my post implied I was suggesting wages should be tied to inflation from 07?

Pay should be frozen until we have a budget surplus. I shouldn't need to tell you how stupid borrowing money to pay wages is.

After that wages should be tied to inflation with an automatic shut down when in deficit.

This serves two functions, it encourages the government to run a surplus and secondly prevents the government from buying votes.

And no everyone shouldn't be paid the same. That's not what tied to inflation means.

test3test

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why does Ireland have some of the highest paid public service/sector workers in the EZ/EU ?

Because the government are basically publicaly sector, Bertie was in bed with the unions and private sector were foolish enough to allow that situation to develop while tax revenue flowed in from the property bubble.

jank

jank wrote: »

Public Sector Pay increased by 130% from 2000 to 2007. Now obviously this was unsustainable from both an expectation and budgetary position, it was one of the main reasons of the crash.

That is total bull s*it, public sector pay hadn't a single thing to do with the crash.

Christ some people are seriously blinded by their hate of the public sector, must have been turned down for one of the "highly paid" jobs.

darkpagandeath

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

That us total bull s*it, public sector pay hadn't a single thing to do with the crash.

Really Sarah the nurse and Barry the Garda buying houses they should not be able to afford for example 2 cars all that. Pushing up prices in the general economy with artificially high wages.

TerrorFirmer

jank wrote: »

Public Sector Pay increased by 130% from 2000 to 2007. Now obviously this was unsustainable from both an expectation and budgetary position, it was one of the main reasons of the crash.

Right. :rolleyes:

test3test

Sleepy wrote: »

Many PS workers that would be on the pigs back in Mayo/Wexford etc. would probably be struggling on the same pay-grade in Artane or Deansgrange.

Indeed there was an article in the papers last year that pointed out that in nearly all Irish counties, one years average public sector salary would more than comfortably buy an average 2 bedroom apartment. Apartments can be got for €49,000 and less in most counties.

Nowhere else in the world can public servants buy a relatively new apartment for the equivalent of less than one years gross wages. The country is still borrowing tens of billions and yet they want a 2% increase?

darkpagandeath

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Right. :rolleyes:

How many Public servants were property speculators too that lost everything and owe loads ?

TerrorFirmer

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How many Public servants were property speculators too that lost everything and owe loads ?

And how many private sector workers in the same boat?

Stating that public sector wages were the main cause of the crash is ridiculous.

test3test

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Really Sarah the nurse and Barry the Garda buying houses they should not be able to afford for example 2 cars all that. Pushing up prices in the general economy with artificially high wages.

Whatever about buying cars and houses they should not be able to go on hen and stag weekends to Berlin and fancy cities like that as well as other fancy holidays every few months, as well as having a fancy pension to look forward to.

MonkeyTennis

test3test wrote: »

Whatever about buying cars and houses they should not be able to go on hen and stag weekends to Berlin and fancy cities like that as well as other fancy holidays every few months, as well as having a fancy pension to look forward to.

Bemused

Tiger Mcilroy

Genuine question here, has the performance appraisal issue where only a tiny percentage are deemed unsatisfactory been resolved.

People are getting increments based on a completely flawed system, has anything been done to identify the non performers?

Its universally recognised that in any company around 10% would not meet standard but in the irish public and civil servive this number is around 1%..

test3test

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Bemused

You may well be bemused, but I know loads of public sector workers with great lifestyles,....not surprising when one years average public sector salary would more than comfortably buy an average 2 bedroom apartment in nearly every Irish county except Dublin.

jank

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

That us total bull s*it, public sector pay hadn't a single thing to do with the crash.

Christ some people are seriously blinded by their hate of the public sector, must have been turned down for one of the "highly paid" jobs.

It did. You may not like it but them are the facts. The outlays of the government back in 2007 was unsustainable due to the types of taxes we were collecting. If we were more prudent and did not increase pay by such an insane amount in such a short period of time we would have a) taken some steam out of the property market, b) had more scope in case of a crash to correct the economy and finally c) the level of debt would be nowhere near as much. Remember only about 23% of the current debt is due to the bank bailout, the rest is due to spending on things like PS pay.

This was the reason the IMF and the ECB were called in to bail us out. Our finances were broken due to a perfect storm of a property collapse, a bank guarantee we could not uphold and government outgoings for pay and pensions and the like.

In short, yes the PS pay increases from 2000 to 2007 did have a major impact on the crash of 2008 and the bailout of 2011.

darkpagandeath

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

Genuine question here, has the performance appraisal issue where only a tiny percentage are deemed unsatisfactory been resolved.

People are getting increments based on a completely flawed system, has anything been done to identify the non performers?

Its universally recognised that in any company around 10% would not meet standard but in the irish public and civil servive this number is around 1%..

Well when your manager is looking to get his/her raise she is not going to mark people down in the department to make it look like they are not doing a good job.

MonkeyTennis

you think the average public sector wage is what about 175k?

jank

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Right. :rolleyes:

Check the CSO stats, its all there in black and white. Some people would rather deny reality then admit their world view is wrong.

darkpagandeath

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

you think the average public sector wage is what about 175k?

Nope, but did get to 20% over the private sector. So to high. Saying private sector wages were high to justify even higher public sector wages is baffling to me.

The_Valeyard

jank wrote: »

It did. You may not like it but them are the facts. The outlays of the government back in 2007 was unsustainable due to the types of taxes we were collecting. If we were more prudent and did not increase pay by such an insane amount in such a short period of time we would have a) taken some steam out of the property market, b) had more scope in case of a crash to correct the economy and finally c) the level of debt would be nowhere near as much. Remember only about 23% of the current debt is due to the bank bailout, the rest is due to spending on things like PS pay.

This was the reason the IMF and the ECB were called in to bail us out. Our finances were broken due to a perfect storm of a property collapse, a bank guarantee we could not uphold and government outgoings for pay and pensions and the like.

In short, yes the PS pay increases from 2000 to 2007 did have a major impact on the crash of 2008 and the bailout of 2011.

North Korea's Propagandists would be proud of the way you can distort reality.

Iwasfrozen

The_Valeyard wrote: »

North Korea's Propagandists would be proud of the way you can distort reality.

I think NK would be more impressed with our bloated public sector. Maybe SIPTU can invite over some of their economic analysts?

bobbysands81

test3test wrote: »

Whatever about buying cars and houses they should not be able to go on hen and stag weekends to Berlin and fancy cities like that as well as other fancy holidays every few months, as well as having a fancy pension to look forward to.

What fancy pensions? It's a myth.

If I paid into a private pension I'd get a much higher return... unfortunately I'm not allowed, ever wonder why paying into our pension is compulsory? The answer is simple, the Govt get faaaaaar more from the pension levy and our other pension contributions than they pay out to us.

bobbysands81

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I think NK would be more impressed with our bloated public sector. Maybe SIPTU can invite over some of their economic analysts?

Bloated public sector?

Can you back that up with some facts please? Even at the height of our PS numbers we weren't bloated by comparison to international standards and to similar countries.

darkpagandeath

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Bloated public sector?

Can you back that up with some facts please? Even at the height of our PS numbers we weren't bloated by comparison to international standards and to similar countries.

Loads of people in the HSE and its still terrible.

bobbysands81

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

Genuine question here, has the performance appraisal issue where only a tiny percentage are deemed unsatisfactory been resolved.

People are getting increments based on a completely flawed system, has anything been done to identify the non performers?

Its universally recognised that in any company around 10% would not meet standard but in the irish public and civil servive this number is around 1%..

No, it hasn't been properly resolved... it's going to be very difficult to resolve in any meaningful way.

jank would you care to link to the relevant CSO stats showing the increases you refer to? I'd be very surprised if you're referring to the mean pay per employee. But then I have a feeling that you're not because that wouldn't suit your point.

jank

The_Valeyard wrote: »

North Korea's Propagandists would be proud of the way you can distort reality.

Again the truth hurts. I see a lot of smart alec replies but no actual real effort of a rebuttal with facts. I think that speaks volumes.

Tiger Mcilroy

bobbysands81 wrote: »

No, it hasn't been properly resolved... it's going to be very difficult to resolve in any meaningful way.

Why?..its a system where the staff underperforming are identified and appropriate measures are taken.

Surely its in all the staffs interest to get this working.

test3test

test3test wrote: »

Whatever about buying cars and houses they should not be able to go on hen and stag weekends to Berlin and fancy cities like that as well as other fancy holidays every few months, as well as having a fancy pension to look forward to.

Sure why not remove public servants passports, how dare they go abroad for a weekend or for holidays.

Warper

Election buying is great for the public sector

Iwasfrozen

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Bloated public sector?

Can you back that up with some facts please? Even at the height of our PS numbers we weren't bloated by comparison to international standards and to similar countries.

It was by the amount of money being spent.

Riskymove

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

Why?..its a system where the staff underperforming are identified and appropriate measures are taken.

Surely its in all the staffs interest to get this working.

It is in staff's interest

the problem is finding an effective way of measuring performance standards in a lot of work areas that can be applied to everyone

test3test

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Loads of people in the HSE and its still terrible.

No wonder when our hospital consultants are paid double what they are in Germany.

Jawgap

test3test wrote: »

Indeed there was an article in the papers last year that pointed out that in nearly all Irish counties, one years average public sector salary would more than comfortably buy an average 2 bedroom apartment. Apartments can be got for €49,000 and less in most counties.

Nowhere else in the world can public servants buy a relatively new apartment for the equivalent of less than one years gross wages. The country is still borrowing tens of billions and yet they want a 2% increase?

That would be fine if the population was evenly distributed - but it's not and given that public services are dictated by the public, get everyone to move and then you can 'smooth out' the delivery of services.

You want people to live in Leitrim but work in Dublin???

Jawgap

test3test wrote: »

No wonder when our hospital consultants are paid double what they are in Germany.

Fine, if people are advocating German wages why not advocate German standards of medical care?

I worked in Germany for a bit and didn't mind paying my compulsory health insurance because the levels of service were there.

Forcing salaries down, esp in relation to highly mobile professionals like doctors, forces people out.

astrofool

bobbysands81 wrote: »

What fancy pensions? It's a myth.

If I paid into a private pension I'd get a much higher return... unfortunately I'm not allowed, ever wonder why paying into our pension is compulsory? The answer is simple, the Govt get faaaaaar more from the pension levy and our other pension contributions than they pay out to us.

Then why don't you pay into a private pension and give up your right to a public sector pension? Approach your shop steward to allow you to do this.

The PS pension payout levels are far in excess of what is paid in, it's run as a current account that will one day fall flat on it's face, but we'll let the next generation figure that out, as long as we get our pound of flesh.

Jawgap

astrofool wrote: »

Then why don't you pay into a private pension and give up your right to a public sector pension? Approach your shop steward to allow you to do this.

The PS pension payout levels are far in excess of what is paid in, it's run as a current account that will one day fall flat on it's face, but we'll let the next generation figure that out, as long as we get our pound of flesh.

I asked and looked to take my pensions contributions out from the 'public' scheme and there's no mechanism to allow for it.

The reason I wanted to do so was to stuff my private fund which was and is performing better.

test3test

Jawgap wrote: »

You want people to live in Leitrim but work in Dublin???

Nobody suggested that, but at the moment Gerry the Guard in Leitrim and Teresa the teacher in Belmullet and Ciaran the decentralised civil servant in Ballygobackwards are paid nearly double what their counterparts are in London and Dusseldorf and Paris...and they still want 2% more!!!! FFS.


If the government wants to increase peoples take home pay, let them reduce taxes - that will help both the private and public sectors.

osarusan

test3test wrote: »

No wonder when our hospital consultants are paid double what they are in Germany.

You think the HSE is terrible because consultants are paid a lot?

bobbysands81

astrofool wrote: »

Then why don't you pay into a private pension and give up your right to a public sector pension? Approach your shop steward to allow you to do this.

Wouldn't you think that if the Govt wasn't quids in in relation to pensions that they'd give us an opt out?! Now why isn't there an opt out? The answer is simple, the Govt take in far more from our pensions than they will be paying us out.

astrofool wrote: »

The PS pension payout levels are far in excess of what is paid in, it's run as a current account that will one day fall flat on it's face, but we'll let the next generation figure that out, as long as we get our pound of flesh.

I challenge you to back up the assertion that they pay out more than people now pay in.

I'm in my 30's and pay more than 140euro per week into my pension. After 40 years of paying this I will get a pension of approx 17k.*

If I was to pay that per week into a private pension how much would I get? (I'll give you a clue... it'll be far more than 17k per year.)

*The amount is likely to change for the worse before I get to retirement age.

bobbysands81

test3test wrote: »

Nobody suggested that, but at the moment Gerry the Guard in Leitrim and Teresa the teacher in Belmullet and Ciaran the decentralised civil servant in Ballygobackwards are paid nearly double what their counterparts are in London and Dusseldorf and Paris...and they still want 2% more!!!! FFS.

An utterly irrelevant comparison.