The 2015 All Ireland Senior Football Championship

shiibata

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah here now, having to play Cork and Kerry every year to win a provincial final would be too much for every county (apart from the odd few purple patches) except Dublin.

Just because there are more teams on a similar level does not make the overall standard of the Ulster Championship higher than the others.

Also with the back door second chance having competitive games with teams at a similar level is an advantage not a disadvantage.

I did not say the standard is high in Ulster. Yes, I agree playing Cork and Kerry would be too much for the majority of counties but my point is how would Kerry and Cork fare playing Tyrone, Armagh, Derry/Donegal and Monaghan to get to their usual accustomed Provincial Final/last 12 of the All Irelands...

Re the back door, I would say over the years, the majority of Ulster teams have knocked each other out more than teams from other provinces have beaten them before the last 12, could be wrong but not far off, I would say.

Gee Male

Jampip wrote: »

Did you expect Down to reach the 2010 All Ireland final? Donegal came from nowhere in 2011 to make a semi final and then 2012 to win the All Ireland. Have you seen any sides from other provinces do that?

4 Ulster teams have made the All Ireland final in the last decade. Can any other province say that? Leinster - 1. Connacht - 1. Munster -2. It makes for poor reading.

Every Ulster team made the Ulster final in the noughties. Would you ever see that in any other province in a decade? Could you see Clare, Wicklow or Carlow or Leitrim making provincial finals?

Every county in Connacht made the Connacht final in the noughties.

keane2097

Jampip wrote: »

4 Ulster teams have made the All Ireland final in the last decade. Can any other province say that? Leinster - 1. Connacht - 1. Munster -2. It makes for poor reading.

Tyrone, Donegal and Down are all I count. Am I missing someone?

Assuming I'm not, a province with 50% more participants having 50% more teams reach the final seems reasonable, as is the case with Munster.

Leinster and Connacht have been pretty terrible in recent times in terms of competitiveness ok.

celt262

Jampip wrote: »

Did you expect Down to reach the 2010 All Ireland final? Donegal came from nowhere in 2011 to make a semi final and then 2012 to win the All Ireland. Have you seen any sides from other provinces do that?

4 Ulster teams have made the All Ireland final in the last decade. Can any other province say that? Leinster - 1. Connacht - 1. Munster -2. It makes for poor reading.

Every Ulster team made the Ulster final in the noughties. Would you ever see that in any other province in a decade? Could you see Clare, Wicklow or Carlow or Leitrim making provincial finals?

Both won provincial finals in the noughties.

keane2097

No one from Ulster seems to be making the argument that being in Ulster is a benefit which is something that could easily be argued from the stats.

Dublin certainly would have been better off getting a few tough games rather than a procession to the semi-final last year.

Jampip

Gee Male wrote: »

Every county in Connacht made the Connacht final in the noughties.

London didn't. New York didn't.

celt262 wrote: »

Both won provincial finals in the noughties.

In the nineties you mean. 20 years ago now. I thought that was a bit far back to be going.

Tombo2001

Jampip wrote: »

Did you expect Down to reach the 2010 All Ireland final? Donegal came from nowhere in 2011 to make a semi final and then 2012 to win the All Ireland. Have you seen any sides from other provinces do that?

4 Ulster teams have made the All Ireland final in the last decade. Can any other province say that? Leinster - 1. Connacht - 1. Munster -2. It makes for poor reading.

Every Ulster team made the Ulster final in the noughties. Would you ever see that in any other province in a decade? Could you see Clare, Wicklow or Carlow or Leitrim making provincial finals?

Down Donegal Tyrone?

Armagh haven't been there for 12 years. Go back a year more and you have Meath and Galway so that would be 2 from both Leinster and Connacht.

Broadly, yes there is a bit more strength in depth in Ulster. On the other hand, you don't have the big gorilla that swats everyone away each year. A team like Monaghan believes it can win in Ulster, against Tyrone or Donegal.

Do you think the Kildare players are waking up this morning thinking they can beat Dublin?

I'm pretty sure that over the past decade, Laois, Kildare, Tipperary, Limerick and Wexford have had teams that could have competed very strongly and probably won Ulster titles had they been in that province.

K-9

Gee Male wrote: »

Every county in Connacht made the Connacht final in the noughties.

As did Ulster teams, getting to an Ulster final that is.

K-9

keane2097 wrote: »

No one from Ulster seems to be making the argument that being in Ulster is a benefit which is something that could easily be argued from the stats.

Dublin certainly would have been better off getting a few tough games rather than a procession to the semi-final last year.

Doesn't seem to do Kerry much damage in fairness, though maybe the problem with Dublin is a series of meaningless matches.

Kerry and Cork is just a competitive match now to see who gets straight to the quarters.

Jampip

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Down Donegal Tyrone?

Armagh haven't been there for 12 years. Go back a year more and you have Meath and Galway so that would be 2 from both Leinster and Connacht.

Broadly, yes there is a bit more strength in depth in Ulster. On the other hand, you don't have the big gorilla that swats everyone away each year. A team like Monaghan believes it can win in Ulster, against Tyrone or Donegal.

Do you think the Kildare players are waking up this morning thinking they can beat Dublin?

I'm pretty sure that over the past decade, Laois, Kildare, Tipperary, Limerick and Wexford have had teams that could have competed very strongly and probably won Ulster titles had they been in that province.

Armagh was 2003 so I was wrong. You are also wrong. Galway and Meath were 2001.

Laois, Kildare, Tipp, Limerick and Wexford couldn't beat lesser teams in their own provinces yet you think they'd have beaten Tyrone, Armagh or Donegal of the past decade!? Ridiculous statement.

Jampip

keane2097 wrote: »

Tyrone, Donegal and Down are all I count. Am I missing someone?

Assuming I'm not, a province with 50% more participants having 50% more teams reach the final seems reasonable, as is the case with Munster.

Leinster and Connacht have been pretty terrible in recent times in terms of competitiveness ok.

Recent times? Dublin have won one Leinster championship game in the last decade and it doesn't look like improving.

At least in Ulster the balance of power tends to shift due to the competitiveness and teams lifting their level.

keane2097

Jampip wrote: »

Recent times? Dublin have won one Leinster championship game in the last decade and it doesn't look like improving.

At least in Ulster the balance of power tends to shift due to the competitiveness and teams lifting their level.

So we're just defining a time period as "whatever length of time fits in as many counties from Ulster as possible"?

Doesn't seem like a sensible foundation for a solid point IMHO.

Jampip

keane2097 wrote: »

So we're just defining a time period as "whatever length of time fits in as many counties from Ulster as possible"?

Doesn't seem like a sensible foundation for a solid point IMHO.

Not sure where that quote came from? The time periods I used were the last decade and the noughties. Both are defined periods in the last fifteen years since 2000.

I'm not sure why that is confusing you.

Either way, Leinster has been piss poor, bar Dublin, for that entire period.

keane2097

K-9 wrote: »

Doesn't seem to do Kerry much damage in fairness, though maybe the problem with Dublin is a series of meaningless matches.

Kerry and Cork is just a competitive match now to see who gets straight to the quarters.

Kerry had a Cork team to play almost every year in Munster that were the second or third best team in the country for about 15 years.

I would say the fact that they made so many All Ireland finals in that time was helped enormously by having that clash every year.

You could have made the argument for a long time that with two out of the top three teams in the country (if not the top two) Munster was the most competitive province for years.

Depends whether you define having more teams on the same level or having a couple of amazing teams who always have to beat one another makes a province harder to win.

An Ciarraioch

Jampip wrote: »

Armagh was 2003 so I was wrong. You are also wrong. Galway and Meath were 2001.

Laois, Kildare, Tipp, Limerick and Wexford couldn't beat lesser teams in their own provinces yet you think they'd have beaten Tyrone, Armagh or Donegal of the past decade!? Ridiculous statement.

It would perhaps be more accurate to say that generally, two counties dominate Ulster at any time, with others below the elite standard, so Tyrone and Armagh ruled in the noughties, with Donegal and Monaghan setting the standard when the others faded. In all, you're looking at a top five of Donegal, Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and Monaghan with the remainder somewhat off the pace.

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

I really don't think you've thought this through.

Donegal 5 years ago would have been of these teams, and given no hope of an All Ireland. Monaghan looked finished as a team 3 years ago. Tipps target is a AI AT and is achievable.

We can't expect half of Ireland to have serious chances of All Ireland.

keane2097

Jampip wrote: »

Not sure where that quote came from? The time periods I used were the last decade and the noughties. Both are defined periods in the last fifteen years since 2000.

I'm not sure why that is confusing you.

Either way, Leinster has been piss poor, bar Dublin, for that entire period.

Do you want to use a timeframe that includes Armagh, Galway & Meath in your calculations or one that only includes Donegal, Tyrone and Donegal?

From your previous post it came across like you wanted to include Armagh but not Galway and Meath.

I'd say having two from Munster and three from Ulster in the past ten years seems reasonable.

Tombo2001

Jampip wrote: »

Armagh was 2003 so I was wrong. You are also wrong. Galway and Meath were 2001.

Laois, Kildare, Tipp, Limerick and Wexford couldn't beat lesser teams in their own provinces yet you think they'd have beaten Tyrone, Armagh or Donegal of the past decade!? Ridiculous statement.

Janey you are very dismissive.

So you think the Kildare team under McGeeney, or the Wexford team in with Mattie Forde in his pomp couldn't have beaten Armagh yesterday.

Armagh 'of the past decade' enjoyed one year where they were contenders, and they didn't even make the final that year.

Donegal were nowhere until 2011.

only Tyrone have been consistent, and they haven't made an AI final for 7 years. They have been a clear notch below Mayo Kerry and Dublin since 2008.

Take Donegal out of it, and really Ulster football has not provided AI contenders in the past 6 years, and that's not changing any time soon.

Gee Male

K-9 wrote: »

As did Ulster teams, getting to an Ulster final that is.

Neither London nor New York are a county in Connacht.

shiibata

shiibata wrote: »

I did not say the standard is high in Ulster. Yes, I agree playing Cork and Kerry would be too much for the majority of counties but my point is how would Kerry and Cork fare playing Tyrone, Armagh, Derry/Donegal and Monaghan to get to their usual accustomed Provincial Final/last 12 of the All Irelands.

I think it would have very little difference to be honest. Armagh/Tyrone/Donegal knocked out Kerry/Cork regularly Monaghan/Derry would have made little difference.

Over the last 15 years Ulster has rarely if ever had 2 of the top 4 teams in the country, so the standard is about the same as the rest of the country.

shiibata

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Janey you are very dismissive.

So you think the Kildare team under McGeeney, or the Wexford team in with Mattie Forde in his pomp couldn't have beaten Armagh yesterday.

Armagh 'of the past decade' enjoyed one year where they were contenders, and they didn't even make the final that year.

Donegal were nowhere until 2011.

only Tyrone have been consistent, and they haven't made an AI final for 7 years. They have been a clear notch below Mayo Kerry and Dublin since 2008.

Take Donegal out of it, and really Ulster football has not provided AI contenders in the past 6 years, and that's not changing any time soon.

I agree with you, re some of them teams you mentioned earlier that they could have beaten Ulster teams on their day but they wouldn't have beaten 3 or 4 of them in a row to win Ulster as you reckoned.. As you also point out, Donegal were virtually nowhere til 2011 but on their day up to then, could also beat anyone on the right day but could not get that elusive Provincial title

K-9

keane2097 wrote: »

Kerry had a Cork team to play almost every year in Munster that were the second or third best team in the country for about 15 years.

I would say the fact that they made so many All Ireland finals in that time was helped enormously by having that clash every year.

You could have made the argument for a long time that with two out of the top three teams in the country (if not the top two) Munster was the most competitive province for years.

Depends whether you define having more teams on the same level or having a couple of amazing teams who always have to beat one another makes a province harder to win.

Is one game a Championship though?

The test of the strength of the provinces is pretty simple, use the Qualifiers!

Admittedly Ulster is far from the days of having 3 AI Semi Finalists, an all Ulster AI final and 4 Quarter finalists but it has the most teams who've taken advantage of it and got to the last eight.

8 of the 9 have done so since the introduction of the qualifiers with Antrim even reaching an Ulster final.

No other province comes close to that record, it's as near as an open and shut case as can be, except it's football and.........

Jampip

keane2097 wrote: »

Do you want to use a timeframe that includes Armagh, Galway & Meath in your calculations or one that only includes Donegal, Tyrone and Donegal?

From your previous post it came across like you wanted to include Armagh but not Galway and Meath.

I'd say having two from Munster and three from Ulster in the past ten years seems reasonable.

I later admitted I was incorrect to include Armagh. I was thinking of 2005 when their last final was 2003.

It's always the same two from Munster though. It's not like it ever changes.

keane2097

Let's also not forget that Armagh beat Tipp in the league thanks to some crazy refereeing, and had their bottoms slapped quite definitively by the one Ulster team we can reliably say is All Ireland material.

There seems to be a general sentiment amongst the Ulster folks that Armagh would swat away the Meaths, Galways, Kildares, Tipps etc at their ease all of a sudden, which seems a tad excessive.

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it would have very little difference to be honest. Armagh/Tyrone/Donegal knocked out Kerry/Cork regularly Monaghan/Derry would have made little difference.

Over the last 15 years Ulster has rarely if ever had 2 of the top 4 teams in the country, so the standard is about the same as the rest of the country.

They had 2 of the top 3, never mind 4 from 02 - 05.

keane2097

Jampip wrote: »

I later admitted I was incorrect to include Armagh. I was thinking of 2005 when their last final was 2003.

It's always the same two from Munster though. It's not like it ever changes.

That doesn't make Munster less competitive though. Less varied, sure.

K-9 wrote: »

Is one game a Championship though?

The test of the strength of the provinces is pretty simple, use the Qualifiers!

Admittedly Ulster is far from the days of having 3 AI Semi Finalists, an all Ulster AI final and 4 Quarter finalists but it has the most teams who've taken advantage of it and got to the last eight.

8 of the 9 have done so since the introduction of the qualifiers with Antrim even reaching an Ulster final.

No other province comes close to that record, it's as near as an open and shut case as can be, except it's football and.........

But then if I say sure Limerick got to an AIQF it would be brushed off as meaningless. If Tipp do it this year which seems quite possible that would be four from six in Munster in the very recent past.

Will tunes change in that scenario? Honestly I doubt it very, very much.

The fact that all the teams have reached the Ulster final is brilliant from a variety POV, no doubt about it, but it doesn't necessarily say all that much about the quality since there is no seeding. Monaghan have to beat Cavan and Fermanagh to make an Ulster final this year, if there's an argument that Kerry would have orders of magnitude more difficulty with that than they had beating Tipp I'd be happy to hear it.

Seeding is obviously terrible, but without it over the last 15 years Munster would almost certainly have had five if not six out of six teams in the Provincial final.

Again I doubt that would have changed the narrative very much.

blinding

K-9 wrote: »

There are flaws in the McGuinness plan but he's right in making the league integral to it. It's where everybody plays the most games of the season so makes perfect sense.

It has to worth a go and iron out the Flaws.

It would actually be a more valuable All-Ireland to win as it would take a very good team over a longer time.

K-9

keane2097 wrote: »

Let's also not forget that Armagh beat Tipp in the league thanks to some crazy refereeing, and had their bottoms slapped quite definitively by the one Ulster team we can reliably say is All Ireland material.

There seems to be a general sentiment amongst the Ulster folks that Armagh would swat away the Meaths, Galways, Kildares, Tipps etc at their ease all of a sudden, which seems a tad excessive.

In fairness I wouldn't get too carried away with yesterday, that can happen, I'm sure that won't happen next time we play them.

Bit like people put too much into the 1 point defeat last year, the truth is in the middle.

Anybody can point to 1 game and draw correlations from that, sure Wicklow ran Meath close, all of a sudden they must be Division 2 standard!

Dirty Dingus McGee

Jampip wrote: »

Did you expect Down to reach the 2010 All Ireland final? Donegal came from nowhere in 2011 to make a semi final and then 2012 to win the All Ireland. Have you seen any sides from other provinces do that?

4 Ulster teams have made the All Ireland final in the last decade. Can any other province say that? Leinster - 1. Connacht - 1. Munster -2. It makes for poor reading.

Every Ulster team made the Ulster final in the noughties. Would you ever see that in any other province in a decade? Could you see Clare, Wicklow or Carlow or Leitrim making provincial finals?

Mayo,Sligo,Galway and Roscommon won the connacht championship in consecutive years in the late 00's and London got to the final a couple of years after this run.

From 2004 to 2013 Meath,Dublin,Offaly,Kildare,Westmeath,Louth,Wexford and Laois reached the Leinster final.8 out of 11 counties in the space of 10 years got to the Leinster final.

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

They had 2 of the top 3, never mind 4 from 02 - 05.

That's 3 years from 15 where they had 2 from top 4 because the next best Ulster team was not in the top 4 in the country. Galway+ Mayo, Dublin+Meath or Kerry+Cork have all been in the top 3/4 in the country more regularly than any 2 Ulster teams.

K-9

keane2097 wrote: »

That doesn't make Munster less competitive though. Less varied, sure.



But then if I say sure Limerick got to an AIQF it would be brushed off as meaningless. If Tipp do it this year which seems quite possible that would be four from six in Munster in the very recent past.

Will tunes change in that scenario? Honestly I doubt it very, very much.

The fact that all the teams have reached the Ulster final is brilliant from a variety POV, no doubt about it, but it doesn't necessarily say all that much about the quality since there is no seeding. Monaghan have to beat Cavan and Fermanagh to make an Ulster final this year, if there's an argument that Kerry would have orders of magnitude more difficulty with that than they had beating Tipp I'd be happy to hear it.

Seeding is obviously terrible, but without it over the last 15 years Munster would almost certainly have had five if not six out of six teams in the Provincial final.

Again I doubt that would have changed the narrative very much.

If Tipp get to a At I doubt many would try and water it down, they'd be the first Munster team from outside the big 2 to reach a Croker QF, that's a big deal but proves my point. Just stating Munster is weak overall is just that, Munster is weak overall!

Limerick did great stuff in 03-06, but being consistent and using your critical point of Ulster, Cork were pretty crap then so it doesn't matter that much.

Consistency is the standard needed, one that the Ulster Championship delivers on, unlike the others.

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

That's 3 years from 15 where they had 2 from top 4 because the next best Ulster team was not in the top 4 in the country. Galway+ Mayo, Dublin+Meath or Kerry+Cork have all been in the top 3/4 in the country more regularly than any 2 Ulster teams.

Galway & Mayo is stretching it, when was that, recent past or 50 years ago?

ciarriaithuaidh

K-9 wrote: »

If Tipp get to a At I doubt many would try and water it down, they'd be the first Munster team from outside the big 2 to reach a Croker QF, that's a big deal but proves my point. Just stating Munster is weak overall is just that, Munster is weak overall!

Limerick did great stuff in 03-06, but being consistent and using your critical point of Ulster, Cork were pretty crap then so it doesn't matter that much.

Consistency is the standard needed, one that the Ulster Championship delivers on, unlike the others.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall verdict, but...

Cork were not "pretty crap" by 2006. They beat Kerry and Donegal (Ulster finalists..lost by 3 to Armagh) that year and despite the loss of fullback and de facto leader Graham Canty gave Kerry a decent enough contest in the semi final.

Also you forget that Limerick made a 1/4 final in 2011. They are a bad example however as a far superior team in 2003-06,as you mention, blew a huge opportunity to get to Croker.

keane2097

K-9 wrote: »

If Tipp get to a At I doubt many would try and water it down, they'd be the first Munster team from outside the big 2 to reach a Croker QF, that's a big deal but proves my point. Just stating Munster is weak overall is just that, Munster is weak overall!

Limerick did great stuff in 03-06, but being consistent and using your critical point of Ulster, Cork were pretty crap then so it doesn't matter that much.

Consistency is the standard needed, one that the Ulster Championship delivers on, unlike the others.

You're sort of proving my point re:Tipp getting to an AIQF by being completely oblivious to the fact that Limerick were in the AIQF in Croke Park in 2011.

If Tipp get there this year that will be four of the six Munster counties having gotten to the quarter final in five years. Six from Ulster in the same time period, for an exact 50% extra quarter-finalists for the 50% extra counties, and you can guarantee nobody will say Munster is as competitive as Ulster (or even that it's competitive full stop) regardless.

aidan24326

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

After yesterday, can we now dispense with the fiction that Tipperary are an up an coming team who'll be challenging Cork/Kerry for Munster soon enough?

They may challenge in a couple of years. You only have to look at how close Limerick came to winning a Munster title in the mid-noughties to see that it's possible. But the game yesterday showed that there's still a gulf. Kerry won more easily than the 6 point margin suggests. Then again Kerry will brush aside most teams so losing to them is no disgrace, and Tipp were at least competitive (as opposed to Longford, for example, who looked completely out of their depth against the Dubs).

One of these days we need to accept that some sort of two-tier (or even 3-tier) system is necessary. We don't ask junior clubs, with a small pick and small resources, to take on the likes of Corofin and St.Vincents and Nemo Rangers. But at county level that's what is happening and we're ending up with total mismatches. Carlow will never compete with Dublin, Waterford will never compete with Kerry so why are we lumping them all into the same competition every year?

At club level a County Junior or Intermediate title means a lot, it would be wildly celebrated in many a club around the country. In a tiered system at county level there's no reason why you couldn't have that, if it was done properly and people were prepared to leave the past behind. Personally I don't know why players from some counties even bother when all they have to look forward to (after months of hard training) is the inevitable first round defeat followed by an early exit from the qualifiers. No chance of achieving anything other than an odd surprise win once every years, if they're lucky.

keane2097

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Also you forget that Limerick made a 1/4 final in 2011. They are a bad example however as a far superior team in 2003-06,as you mention, blew a huge opportunity to get to Croker.

No more a bad example than pointing to Antrim making an Ulster final means anything.

K-9

True, Fermanagh beat Cork in 03 I think, by 06 they were building a team again.

Which comes back to things being cyclical again. Eugene McGee made the point that Leinster always had only 2 or 3 counties winning it anyway, with the odd exception. It's up to Meath to restore things to the usual. If anything we got a bit spoilt with Westmeath, Laois and Kildare winning titles and Wexford coming close.

salmocab

So laois are playing a qualifier against antrim this weekend. I think Im right in saying that will be their 4th game. including a replay v kildare, is that right? So in theory they could have played 4 games and already be knocked out before teams like Dublin have even played 2 matches. I know the replay skews the stat somewhat but even still for them to possibly be done mid june for me shows what a mess the AI series is.

K-9

keane2097 wrote: »

You're sort of proving my point re:Tipp getting to an AIQF by being completely oblivious to the fact that Limerick were in the AIQF in Croke Park in 2011.

If Tipp get there this year that will be four of the six Munster counties having gotten to the quarter final in five years. Six from Ulster in the same time period, for an exact 50% extra quarter-finalists for the 50% extra counties, and you can guarantee nobody will say Munster is as competitive as Ulster (or even that it's competitive full stop) regardless.

I wasn't oblivious, obviously you'd be more aware of it. Thinking about I'm not 100% on Cavan in a QF, pretty sure, its the general point that matters.

Put this way, all this talk of a weaker championship, it would mostly be a mini Leinster and Munstet Championship with maybe Leitrim and Antrim from the rest.

Clare, Waterford, Carlow, Wicklow, Longford and Offaly would all be in a bottom 10 anyway.

K-9

salmocab wrote: »

So laois are playing a qualifier against antrim this weekend. I think Im right in saying that will be their 4th game. including a replay v kildare, is that right? So in theory they could have played 4 games and already be knocked out before teams like Dublin have even played 2 matches. I know the replay skews the stat somewhat but even still for them to possibly be done mid june for me shows what a mess the AI series is.

A bit absurd all right, but when you've one province with 6 teams and another with 9 and 11......

Which when its a 32 county country it should lend itself to simple structures, we've managed to make it as complicated ad possible!

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

Galway & Mayo is stretching it, when was that, recent past or 50 years ago?

Probably could make a case for 97/98!

Mal-Adjusted

aidan24326 wrote: »

They may challenge in a couple of years.

They won't

aidan24326 wrote: »

You only have to look at how close Limerick came to winning a Munster title in the mid-noughties to see that it's possible.

It used to be. If Kerry and Cork were in the same side of the draw and if whoever came through had a very bad day and whoever the other finalist was had a very good day, then there was a chance.
With seeding, Tipp would now have to beat a team at their own level (or thereabouts), then two of the best teams in the country in a row. it's designed so it's not possible. The last team to win Munster outside of the usual two was Clare in 1992. you have to go back to 1935 to get the next one! people can fool themselves into thinking so and so will be real contenders "in a few years time" but it just doesn't happen.

aidan24326 wrote: »

One of these days we need to accept that some sort of two-tier (or even 3-tier) system is necessary. We don't ask junior clubs, with a small pick and small resources, to take on the likes of Corofin and St.Vincents and Nemo Rangers. But at county level that's what is happening and we're ending up with total mismatches. Carlow will never compete with Dublin, Waterford will never compete with Kerry so why are we lumping them all into the same competition every year?

At club level a County Junior or Intermediate title means a lot, it would be wildly celebrated in many a club around the country. In a tiered system at county level there's no reason why you couldn't have that, if it was done properly and people were prepared to leave the past behind. Personally I don't know why players from some counties even bother when all they have to look forward to (after months of hard training) is the inevitable first round defeat followed by an early exit from the qualifiers. No chance of achieving anything other than an odd surprise win once every years, if they're lucky.

I agree totally.

Boom__Boom

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

It used to be. If Kerry and Cork were in the same side of the draw and if whoever came through had a very bad day and whoever the other finalist was had a very good day, then there was a chance.
With seeding, Tipp would now have to beat a team at their own level (or thereabouts), then two of the best teams in the country in a row. it's designed so it's not possible. The last team to win Munster outside of the usual two was Clare in 1992. you have to go back to 1935 to get the next one! people can fool themselves into thinking so and so will be real contenders "in a few years time" but it just doesn't happen.

The current system in the Munster Championship is that the two teams who get to the Munster final get a bye to the semi-final stage next year. In other words next year Cork and Kerry's first game will be at the semi-final stage.

However it's an open draw and Cork and Kerry can get drawn against one another. There's a 50/50 chance that next year Cork will be playing Kerry in one semi-final, so it's hardly as if the deck is unfairly stacked against them.

If Tipp (or one of other the weaker teams) do win the semi-final it also mean that the following year Tipperary would get put straight into the semi-final.

As a final point - the seeding in the Munster Final championship is decided by a vote so basically it has been whatever the four weaker counties voted for.

zetecescort

aidan24326 wrote: »

They may challenge in a couple of years. You only have to look at how close Limerick came to winning a Munster title in the mid-noughties to see that it's possible. But the game yesterday showed that there's still a gulf. Kerry won more easily than the 6 point margin suggests. Then again Kerry will brush aside most teams so losing to them is no disgrace, and Tipp were at least competitive (as opposed to Longford, for example, who looked completely out of their depth against the Dubs).

One of these days we need to accept that some sort of two-tier (or even 3-tier) system is necessary. We don't ask junior clubs, with a small pick and small resources, to take on the likes of Corofin and St.Vincents and Nemo Rangers. But at county level that's what is happening and we're ending up with total mismatches. Carlow will never compete with Dublin, Waterford will never compete with Kerry so why are we lumping them all into the same competition every year?

At club level a County Junior or Intermediate title means a lot, it would be wildly celebrated in many a club around the country. In a tiered system at county level there's no reason why you couldn't have that, if it was done properly and people were prepared to leave the past behind. Personally I don't know why players from some counties even bother when all they have to look forward to (after months of hard training) is the inevitable first round defeat followed by an early exit from the qualifiers. No chance of achieving anything other than an odd surprise win once every years, if they're lucky.

with all the talk of Champions League type groups and other suggestions I can't understand why they don't just have a 3 or 4 tier championship like the hurling ( Meagher, Rackard, Ring and MacCarthy Cups).

tipparetops

At the moment there is four teams that stand out for sam - mayo, kerry, donegal and dublin.
Monaghan and Cork are outside bets.
The league is more important than the championship for the rest of the counties.
Getting into Division 1 and staying there should be the only priority for the other 26 counties.
That is where the provisional and all Ireland champs will all come from.

Dirty Dingus McGee

The seeding in Munster is a disgrace and it may well contribute to killing of Tipperary's revival as regardless of how good they are having to beat Cork and Kerry in the one year is near impossible.If there was no seeing it would be achievable for them to get to the Munster final every 2 or 3 years and get to the last 12 and make a serious impact on the championship.Being in the most difficult provincial championship to make a breakthrough in will hold them back in the next 5 or 6 years were they in the other 3 they could regularly build up a bit of momentum in provincial championships and push on from that.

zetecescort

its up to the other counties to vote for a change whether its seeding draws or other stuff like getting Dublin to travel. pointless complaining when they are the ones with the power to change things

Boom__Boom

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The seeding in Munster is a disgrace and it may well contribute to killing of Tipperary's revival as regardless of how good they are having to beat Cork and Kerry in the one year is near impossible.If there was no seeing it would be achievable for them to get to the Munster final every 2 or 3 years and get to the last 12 and make a serious impact on the championship.Being in the most difficult provincial championship to make a breakthrough in will hold them back in the next 5 or 6 years were they in the other 3 they could regularly buil d up a bit of momentum in provincial championships and push on from that.

3 posts up - they don't have to beat Cork and Kerry in the same year in order to win Munster.

There is no seeding in the Munster championship unless you count giving the two teams who got through to the final a bye to the semi-final the next year.

Next year the 4 teams of Waterford, Limerick, Clare and Tipperary will be put in a pot and drawn against each other for the first round games.

We'll assume Waterford draw Limerick and Clare play Tipperary.

They the winner of game 1, the winner of game 2, Cork and Kerry will be put in a pot and the draw will be made for the semi-final and anyone can play anyone with no seeding here, which means Cork can draw Kerry and you could have winner of Waterford/Limerick against the winner of Clare/Tipperary.

Boom__Boom wrote: »

The current system in the Munster Championship is that the two teams who get to the Munster final get a bye to the semi-final stage next year. In other words next year Cork and Kerry's first game will be at the semi-final stage.

However it's an open draw and Cork and Kerry can get drawn against one another. There's a 50/50 chance that next year Cork will be playing Kerry in one semi-final, so it's hardly as if the deck is unfairly stacked against them.

If Tipp (or one of other the weaker teams) do win the semi-final it also mean that the following year Tipperary would get put straight into the semi-final.

As a final point - the seeding in the Munster Final championship is decided by a vote so basically it has been whatever the four weaker counties voted for.

Also to expand on the final point -the system in the Munster Football Championship is decided by vote by the 6 Munster counties which means the format is effectively decided by Tipperary, Waterford, Limerick and Clare. You had the insane situation prior to the current situation where the players from the weaker counties threatened to boycott the Munster Championship when they weren't happy with the structure despite the fact it was their county reps that voted for the structure.

Gee Male

keane2097 wrote: »

But then if I say sure Limerick got to an AIQF it would be brushed off as meaningless. If Tipp do it this year which seems quite possible that would be four from six in Munster in the very recent past.

Will tunes change in that scenario? Honestly I doubt it very, very much.

In the last 8 years, 4 out of the 5 Connacht counties have played in an AIQF. The other county has a population of 30,000 so can't really compete unfortunately.

Connacht, FTW.

Jippo

aidan24326 wrote: »

Kerry won more easily than the 6 point margin suggests.

My guess is that you weren't at the game.

Tipp hit a criminal amount of wides in the game.