The 2015 All Ireland Senior Football Championship

JB81

Patww79 wrote: »

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Really??!
I see no reason Galway can not beat a poor Armagh team ( did you not see them against Donegal? )
Also no reason Meath should be fearful of Tyrone, we have not been setting the world alight. I think it was possibly the toughest draw for Tyrone, Meath will have the wounded animal look about them after yesterday
I would expect Derry to beat Wexford though

Boom__Boom

Patww79 wrote: »

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No you're right their record in the qualifiers is abysmal.

The thing is Armagh were woeful against Donegal and struggled hugely against Wicklow - Wicklow missed between 5 and 7 kickable frees according to reports and Armagh scored 2-3 to no score in the last 5 minutes to put a big gloss on the scoreline.

keane2097

For what it's worth, I'd watch the Derry Dublin league game any day of the week ahead of yesterday's Dublin Kildare game, which I literally walked away from at half time.

Fr Tod Umptious

Patww79 wrote: »

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They had a few years there that they were terrible in the qualifiers but in the last 2 years they have got to a QF and Rnd 4.

I think that they realize that wile Mayo are so dominant in Connacht they need to use the qualifiers for their own improvement

thinkstoomuch1

Boom__Boom wrote: »

No you're right their record in the qualifiers is abysmal.

The thing is Armagh were woeful against Donegal and struggled hugely against Wicklow - Wicklow missed between 5 and 7 kickable frees according to reports and Armagh scored 2-3 to no score in the last 5 minutes to put a big gloss on the scoreline.

I have never rated mcgenney as a good manager and tactically despite the media fan fare he's I always said many times before quite poor and look at the Galway under twenty one all Ireland semi final with Kildale and the senior game with down he was poorly exposed tactically


Pat Spillane actually ruthlessly said he was wrong about him and he's now a man talk the talk but is poor in last week paper


Galway are young and weren't that bad v mayo just naivety at key moments
Walsh is a good manager so Galway have a real chance and it's better for the championship that Galway win rather than armagh

thinkstoomuch1

slogging...it wrote: »

I wouldn't call Derry's draw easy either

I'd agree Wexford would have a chance in a close game

Derry were poor to be honest v Donegal in Donegal clearly were just going through the motions and wanted to win with out a fuss as monaghan are waiting and armagh and Tyrone they had peaked for they couldn't afford to be so good again in the minefield of ulster

The poor passing with a kick straight out over the side line the poor wides and when they were two up with ten to go they never wanted or showed a desire to drive on like Dublin or kerry and win hugely and it's under standsble as unlike kerry and Dublin that have not lot huge games Donegal had a tough championship


Donegal are on the go for five years and I'm surprised their looking fresh but that is down to Gallagher who is doing good
Donegal could have won this game by ten points they wanted to but just wanted to keep ball and close it out so derry were saved a huge beating


Cork only hope Sunday is kerry who I suspect will do the same win with out going through the full peak and won't want to show their full hand
Derry are poorer than Saturday night showed

Ceist_Beag

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Derry v Wexford
Tyrone v Meath
Tipperary v Louth
Armagh v Galway

Hardest one to call for me is Derry v Wexford. Wexford have a bit of momentum so could cause a surprise here.
Tyrone should beat Meath comfortably, Tipp to beat Louth and I expect Galway to beat Armagh.

thinkstoomuch1

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

They had a few years there that they were terrible in the qualifiers but in the last 2 years they have got to a QF and Rnd 4.

I think that they realize that wile Mayo are so dominant in Connacht they need to use the qualifiers for their own improvement

It's important to look at who Galway had in charge also in tomas flaherta who has a poor record compounded by laois as Spillane said also good assistant manager only and after him the manager was hardly great


Walsh has yet to prove he can go to the next level but with sligo showed he's good and could offer potential
Walsh is a huge loss but Galway I think are a coming team and the qualifier will suit them

Boom__Boom

One thing on the Armagh Galway game I can see it being an absolute munter of a game to ref - both of the teams have exceptionally poor tackling technique - Armagh seem to think that a legitimate tackle is aimed to the man as opposed to the ball and Galway seem to have a loose, lazy style of tackling that I would describe as "throwing hands"

This bad tackling by both sides has contributed to a very high number of frees conceded by both so far in the championship.

thinkstoomuch1

I'd agree but Galway you could say are building
Armagh we are led to believe have a great great manager by some of the media
Cork are another classic example of awful truly awful defending both in organising and structure and technical defence and one of the greatest myth around is Cork do a blanket defence
In name only as the league and clare and the last three challenge matches conclusively proved and it's not that cork have poor players far from it but they have no proven defence coach

elefant

Patww79 wrote: »

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Reaching a bit, but Galway one of few teams to win an All-Ireland through the qualifiers. A year in which they also beat Armagh.

munsterlegend

bucketybuck wrote: »

There was a 10/15 minute period over half time where Dublin, and in particular the half back line, simply switched off and stopped putting any pressure on the ball. One incident in particular stands out, that of McCarthy simply standing and watching as the ball went around him in almost a full square, he didn't even try to lay a hand on it.

Donegal weren't asking any questions at that stage so it wasn't a case of Dublin being unable to respond. It was only later when Donegal realised what was happening that they then really started to apply the pressure. Dublin couldn't get the pace back when that happened, but that wouldn't have happened at all had Dublin not completely stopped playing.

People really do forget just how dominant Dublin were in that first half, they completely destroyed the vaunted Donegal blanket and I bet Jim McGuinness knew it.

I think you'll find Dublin kicked a number of great scores at the start from distance which you can only keep up for so long. Donegal got the breaks yes but Dublin panicked once Donegal got the goal and were clueless in the second half. dublin can destroy anyone kerry included and may well roll over everyone this year but there is nearly always one game where questions are asked

harpsman

slogging...it wrote: »

Didn't Dublin hammer Monaghan in Clones this year Already??
In all seriousness tho Leinster needs Dublin that's the standard of football you have to aspire to achieve, keep Monaghan etc are any of the anti football teams in Ulster I'd rather a hammering of Dublin than taking the reason teams are trying to play in Leinster out of it
On another note I would ask anyone lauding Donegal against Dublin last year watch the match again Dublin had enough chances to have Donegal on the bus at half time and don't start about Monaghan losing to there B team in the league

Yeah and Cork hammered Kerry down in Killarney in the league last year too!!

Do you really think that a dead rubber league match when both teams are already in the semi is a way to measure teams? Really?

Having said that I think Dublin would be winnin up in Ulster just as easy, obviously playing Monaghan in Clones would even it up a bit but Dublin would beat em 8 times out of ten, probably Donegal too.

Also I wish people would stop saying that because Dublin always had a big population but used to be crap then nobody can discuss their advatages now-its a really stupid argument.

Stoner

munsterlegend wrote:

I think you'll find Dublin kicked a number of great scores at the start from distance which you can only keep up for so long.

Not having a go, but this statement seems to be doing the rounds now. Running and chasing back is something you can only do to a level for so long. But kicking decent points is something good teams can maintain. The idea that teams get tired kicking the ball or what ever the rubbish is that brolly in particular has introduced is BS in my option. Dublin and donegal played out a very low scoring game in 2011. Murphy is an expert at long range scores and he'll score them at any stage. The idea that brolly is trying to paint that donegal had it 100% in the bag from the get go is rubbish. They fully deserved the win last year but they did not say that from the start that "let the Dubs use up their long range scores early on" there was a switch off from the Dubs, Donegal made some switches got momentum the better team won.

But calling everything that happened in that game as part of a 100% master plan as Brolly does is off the mark. Just like he was about Westmeath yesterday. Also both the lads missed the changes at corner back yesterday and how the backs faced Bray and McMahon during certain stages to block their view of the play so threy couldn't anticipated and make as many of the runs that they made in the first half. The more mobile guys in different positions, things that didn't happen in the first half . Or that meath tired.
Brolly is not capable of making some of the statements he makes. He would need super powers. He makes indepth statements months and years after games have been played painting a deeply tactical and controlled picture of how team set up. Some of it is complete rubbish. He'd have 5 all Irelands in a row as a manager if he actually did correctly call these situations. He's as guiltu at talking up teams as he is at breaking them into nothing.

Many teams win games by making tactical changes, it often happens that other other team can take the foot off the pedal as meath did a bit yesterday.

That's football it goes with you and against you. That's what happened with donegal and Dublin last year. Things developed and played out on the pitch that were part of no plan, and the best team won.
I seriously doubt at any stage that donegal planned to sit out Dublins long point kicking phase because no team can keep that up.
Donegal changed things up. And a management that sent a team out a year before against Mayo for an obliteration is not capable of such planning. Management had a huge impact on the decision last year, much of it by the Dublin manager, he's learning fair play to him. McGuinness learned in 2011, fair play to him.
Hats off to donegal but you have to be realistic at the same time. They are a very good team with great supporters but they are vulnerable to things not going their way too. Otherwise they would have won more. That is the only real type off hindsight statement you can make. Not let things pan our and then fit it into a plan.


Yesterday Kildare were terrible. Brolly and Co were actually amazed and taken back by how Dublin played. I've never seen him that "impressed" that will all go out the window if Dublin fall short. Dunlin were good yesterday, but Kildare were no test. As a result you can only say so much about Dublin. The lads went top far last night

The fact if the matter is that Kildare were terribly. They have better players that either can't or won't play for their manager. Something is badly wrong their. They have spent a lot at underage level,yet the senior team is in free fall.

Their halftime plan was up come out and slow things down get someone sent off, get the game finished and go home. There is a lot more football in Kildare than we saw yesterday. People in Kildare know it, there was no talk about that yesterday either. I thought the after match analysis yesterday was poor for both games.

DoctaDee

Excellent post

munsterlegend

Stoner wrote: »

Not having a go, but this statement seems to be doing the rounds now. Running and chasing back is something you can only do to a level for so long. But kicking decent points is something good teams can maintain. The idea that teams get tired kicking the ball or what ever the rubbish is that brolly in particular has introduced is BS in my option. Dublin and donegal played out a very low scoring game in 2011. Murphy is an expert at long range scores and he'll score them at any stage. The idea that brolly is trying to paint that donegal had it 100% in the bag from the get go is rubbish. They fully deserved the win last year but they did not say that from the start that "let the Dubs use up their long range scores early on" there was a switch off from the Dubs, Donegal made some switches got momentum the better team won.

But calling everything that happened in that game as part of a 100% master plan as Brolly does is off the mark. Just like he was about Westmeath yesterday. Also both the lads missed the changes at corner back yesterday and how the backs faced Bray and McMahon during certain stages to block their view of the play so threy couldn't anticipated and make as many of the runs that they made in the first half. The more mobile guys in different positions, things that didn't happen in the first half . Or that meath tired.
Brolly is not capable of making some of the statements he makes. He would need super powers. He makes indepth statements months and years after games have been played painting a deeply tactical and controlled picture of how team set up. Some of it is complete rubbish. He'd have 5 all Irelands in a row as a manager if he actually did correctly call these situations. He's as guiltu at talking up teams as he is at breaking them into nothing.

Many teams win games by making tactical changes, it often happens that other other team can take the foot off the pedal as meath did a bit yesterday.

That's football it goes with you and against you. That's what happened with donegal and Dublin last year. Things developed and played out on the pitch that were part of no plan, and the best team won.
I seriously doubt at any stage that donegal planned to sit out Dublins long point kicking phase because no team can keep that up.
Donegal changed things up. And a management that sent a team out a year before against Mayo for an obliteration is not capable of such planning. Management had a huge impact on the decision last year, much of it by the Dublin manager, he's learning fair play to him. McGuinness learned in 2011, fair play to him.
Hats off to donegal but you have to be realistic at the same time. They are a very good team with great supporters but they are vulnerable to things not going their way too. Otherwise they would have won more. That is the only real type off hindsight statement you can make. Not let things pan our and then fit it into a plan.


Yesterday Kildare were terrible. Brolly and Co were actually amazed and taken back by how Dublin played. I've never seen him that "impressed" that will all go out the window if Dublin fall short. Dunlin were good yesterday, but Kildare were no test. As a result you can only say so much about Dublin. The lads went top far last night

The fact if the matter is that Kildare were terribly. They have better players that either can't or won't play for their manager. Something is badly wrong their. They have spent a lot at underage level,yet the senior team is in free fall.

Their halftime plan was up come out and slow things down get someone sent off, get the game finished and go home. There is a lot more football in Kildare than we saw yesterday. People in Kildare know it, there was no talk about that yesterday either. I thought the after match analysis yesterday was poor for both games.

Donegal's plan surely was not to let Dublin in closer to goal and score the killer goals which they thrive on? any team will try and force a team to kick from distance. dublin kicked some awful wides in the second half from what i recall and could have brought the game back with points but started going for goals.

NabyLadistheman

In fairness to the boys on Newstalk they were very critical of the Kildare management and the way they set-up their team. More tactical analysis than what was offered on RTE that is for sure. Spillane & Brolly waxing lyrical about the Dubs is hardly good info for the viewer to process. Spillane has lost all credibility in my eyes.

bucketybuck

Stoner wrote: »

The idea that brolly is trying to paint that donegal had it 100% in the bag from the get go is rubbish. They fully deserved the win last year but they did not say that from the start that "let the Dubs use up their long range scores early on" there was a switch off from the Dubs, Donegal made some switches got momentum the better team won.

But calling everything that happened in that game as part of a 100% master plan as Brolly does is off the mark.

This is the point I was trying to make.

Did Donegal deserve to win last year? Of course they did, they realised what was happening and had the players to take advantage of the situation. But it was no tactical masterplan, and had Dublin not inexplicably stopped pressing the ball Donegal would not have had the chance to grab that advantage.

If that game was a boxing match, it would have been one boxer pounding the crap out of the other for five rounds, but then in round 6 he stops boxing and starts leaning against the ropes. The other boxer is in bits, doesn't know why the first boxer has stopped hitting him, but doesn't look a gift horse in the mouth and starts punching back, eventually winning the fight.

harpsman

LeoB wrote: »

None of the other counties in Leinster have the competition Dublin clubs have for players. FACT. You take club on south side like Ballyboden, Kilmacud or Cuala and Rugby are the big games with twice as many Rugby clubs as G.A.A. and schools Rugby is also huge. Go to west and north Dublin, Tallaght, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown, Finglas, Ballymun and Cabra and Soccer is a major sport with rugby a growing game and thats before you include any other sports but the competition for players from Rugby and soccer has to be seen to be believed.

Dublin G.A.A. does not have the pick of all the kids but what it has is a very good structure in terms of coaching and development. It doesnt work every year but players will come through if you stick with it.

There were no groans from people in 1990's or early 2000's when Dublin were down the pecking order behind Meath and at other times behind Laois or Westmeath. Meath, Kildare and Laois have not put the work into their structures and they dont have the challenges Dublin or Dublin clubs have to face.

No, its not a fact. North and East Donegal to take one example is soccer country. In Cork gaelic football is very much the poor relation.

Its just as well for their own sake that the big Dublin clubs have a bit of competition from other sports-they can barely cope with the amount of kids they have as it is .200 u12s in Kilmacud-God its a wonder the poor creturs can field a team at all :P

An Ciarraioch

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I'd agree Wexford would have a chance in a close game

Derry were poor to be honest v Donegal in Donegal clearly were just going through the motions and wanted to win with out a fuss as monaghan are waiting and armagh and Tyrone they had peaked for they couldn't afford to be so good again in the minefield of ulster

The poor passing with a kick straight out over the side line the poor wides and when they were two up with ten to go they never wanted or showed a desire to drive on like Dublin or kerry and win hugely and it's under standsble as unlike kerry and Dublin that have not lot huge games Donegal had a tough championship


Donegal are on the go for five years and I'm surprised their looking fresh but that is down to Gallagher who is doing good
Donegal could have won this game by ten points they wanted to but just wanted to keep ball and close it out so derry were saved a huge beating


Cork only hope Sunday is kerry who I suspect will do the same win with out going through the full peak and won't want to show their full hand
Derry are poorer than Saturday night showed

An interesting point on the Munster Final is that the losers will play the Leinster champions if they win their last-12 tie. One might see Kerry possibly beating Dublin in September, but not with off-peak fitness, so for once the provincial title effectively becomes an eliminator.

Ceist_Beag

bucketybuck wrote: »

This is the point I was trying to make.

Did Donegal deserve to win last year? Of course they did, they realised what was happening and had the players to take advantage of the situation. But it was no tactical masterplan, and had Dublin not inexplicably stopped pressing the ball Donegal would not have had the chance to grab that advantage.

If that game was a boxing match, it would have been one boxer pounding the crap out of the other for five rounds, but then in round 6 he stops boxing and starts leaning against the ropes. The other boxer is in bits, doesn't know why the first boxer has stopped hitting him, but doesn't look a gift horse in the mouth and starts punching back, eventually winning the fight.

That's a bit of a simplification of what happened tbf. There was an element of things happening on the pitch but there was certainly also a tactical plan which played a part in it. Donegal knew Dublin would go man for man and took advantage of that to move Dublin players where they wanted them. Obviously the Dublin goal chance missed and the subsequent Donegal goal before half time meant the mental side of both teams came into the equation and there is no doubt that Donegal won in part because mentally they were stronger than Dublin but to say that management tactics played no part in the win is wrong.

harpsman

bucketybuck wrote: »

Its not nonsense, whats nonsense is the revisionism surrounding that game.

Some people now like to pretend Donegal had a genius masterplan that day, that they knew how to handle the dubs and that the gameplan worked perfectly.

And its all rubbish. Dublin had Donegal absolutely beaten out the gate, they were spanking them all around the field and had they taken even just a few more of their chances the game would have been over long before half time. Then for some reason Dublin stopped pressing in their defence and over the next 15 minutes Donegal realised they had far too much time and space and finally started going for crucial scores.

Masterplan my hole, Dublin could and should have put a cricket score on Donegal just the same as Mayo had done previously, instead they switched off and handed Donegal the win. I have no doubt whatsoever that McGuiness and the Donegal team couldn't believe their luck that day, because if Dublin hadn't stopped playing they would have been on the end of a serious hiding.

Wow-somebody sounds bitter about Donegal.

Sure Dublin had 2 goal chances early on but they also kicked 3 or 4 spectacular long range points which on another day might go wide so 9 points to 4 was a reasonably fair reflection of play after 20 minutes-when the bookies had the spread at 15 points.

Also if you think getting a couple of breaks before beating a team who were 6-1 on by six points mean you didnt have a tactical plan which worked then youre even more clueless than your post suggests.

DoctaDee

munsterlegend wrote: »

Donegal's plan surely was not to let Dublin in closer to goal and score the killer goals which they thrive on? any team will try and force a team to kick from distance. dublin kicked some awful wides in the second half from what i recall and could have brought the game back with points but started going for goals.

This is also quite true - it wasn't the fact that they couldn't maintain kicking points from distance - but that they couldn't kick them from straight in front of the posts (a Brogan free comes to mind) -

It was alluded to yesterday but if you put Dublins mindset in context (forget the Leinster championship), they had just come off a 17 point drubbing of the 2nd best team in Ulster - a team that had given Donegal enough problems of their own, Dublin started where they left off and continued with that courage of conviction when the on field dynamic of the game had changed - it was naive.

From chatting to a few lads involved - they'd worked on the whole aspect of breaking down the blanket defence for a good few months prior - the fact of the matter was they showed quite brilliantly against Monaghan how to do it - but in an ironical way they totally underestimated/neglected how best to defend against the blanket defence and were ruthlessly exposed.

I know we're talking about a league game in March - but I saw enough from Donegals movement that night to suggest that they'll pose the same problems this time round should things pan out the way I assume they will.

harpsman

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

They had a few years there that they were terrible in the qualifiers but in the last 2 years they have got to a QF and Rnd 4.

I think that they realize that wile Mayo are so dominant in Connacht they need to use the qualifiers for their own improvement

They only had to beat Tipp and Sligo to get to quarters last year.
In fairness they beat Armagh 2 years ago but it really was the battle of 2 teams at their lowest ebb for about 50 years!

bucketybuck

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

That's a bit of a simplification of what happened tbf. There was an element of things happening on the pitch but there was certainly also a tactical plan which played a part in it. Donegal knew Dublin would go man for man and took advantage of that to move Dublin players where they wanted them. Obviously the Dublin goal chance missed and the subsequent Donegal goal before half time meant the mental side of both teams came into the equation and there is no doubt that Donegal won in part because mentally they were stronger than Dublin but to say that management tactics played no part in the win is wrong.

Donegals tactical plan did not work, they were getting absolutely hockied by Dublin and should easily been out of sight.

I have no problem saying that Donegal were excellent in recognising and reacting to Dublin when they did switch off, and then pushing on at the right time, but it certainly wasn't any masterplan that got them to that point. Another poster talked about Donegal denying Dublin goal chances but again, they didn't, Dublin were waltzing through them at times. That they wasted those chances wasn't due to a plan, just due to the luck that often comes in games.

bucketybuck

harpsman wrote: »

Wow-somebody sounds bitter about Donegal.

Sure Dublin had 2 goal chances early on but they also kicked 3 or 4 spectacular long range points which on another day might go wide so 9 points to 4 was a reasonably fair reflection of play after 20 minutes-when the bookies had the spread at 15 points.

Also if you think getting a couple of breaks before beating a team who were 6-1 on by six points mean you didnt have a tactical plan which worked then youre even more clueless than your post suggests.

Sometimes all you can say is :rolleyes:

gormdubhgorm

From the few posts I have read some of the posters here would put brolly and Spillane out of a job great analysis. As for the Dublin resources thing could all the money from Leinster teams be pooled? Then given out on a sliding scale from the most impoverished to the wealthiest last. It's how the EU does it.

Ceist_Beag

bucketybuck wrote: »

Another poster talked about Donegal denying Dublin goal chances but again, they didn't, Dublin were waltzing through them at times. That they wasted those chances wasn't due to a plan, just due to the luck that often comes in games.

Ah here, who's rewriting history now? Dublin wasted one, just one, good goal chance in the first half. Waltzing through, I don't think so! Absolutely, they kicked some magnificent points from distance but they certainly were not waltzing through and how about you give Donegal some credit for the "inexplicable" reason Dublin stopped pressing - maybe there was something in what Donegal did that caused that!

North of 32

Stoner wrote: »

I seriously doubt at any stage that donegal planned to sit out Dublins long point kicking phase because no team can keep that up.

I just have to disagree. The points Dublin were scoring early in the first half were exactly the type of scoring opportunities Donegal would be "happy" to give Dublin, because it means they're shooting from the 45 and not around the arc, or near the goal. You're never going to stop Dublin creating scoring opportunities, but you can try to limit them to certain types of scoring opportunities ie. lower percentage shots. Similar strategies exist in basketball. If a player is a dreadful shooter, defenders simply back off and make him take the shot. Even if he scores, statistically he is not likely to maintain a high conversion rate. If he's 20% from 3-point range, but deadly driving to the basket, which opportunity are you going to give him? Of course, Dublin certainly could have maintained a high conversion rate from distance. It's a risk to allow them to shoot from distance but it's a better risk than closing them down and leaving space behind for goal opportunities.

Donegal changed things up. And a management that sent a team out a year before against Mayo for an obliteration is not capable of such planning.

Not sure I understand this point. Crucial members of the squad barely trained in 2013 because of injury, including Karl Lacey and Neil Gallagher. The stat is around somewhere but they both missed around 80% of the sessions. I don't think the loss to Mayo was due to errors in strategy. It had more to do with Mayo being excellent and key Donegal players simply not having trained enough.

bucketybuck

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

maybe there was something in what Donegal did that caused that!

Was it the mystical Donegal gameplan that stopped McCarthy and others pressing the ball around the half back line?

Its vague claims like that from Brolly that started this discussion and I'll say it again, Donegal did not manoeuvre themselves into a position where they could win, they just found themselves there and took full advantage. Nothing wrong with that as long as they realise that it wasn't because of any gameplan, it was because Dublin gave it to them.

keane2097

The Dublin - Donegal match I would say is somewhere in the middle of the two positions being taken here.

Dublin could have been miles ahead if they had taken their first half goal chances, but were only as far ahead as they were because they managed an extraordinary return on a load of Hail Mary shots in the first half.

Teams frequently manage to create goal chances against Donegal so I don't think that represents any sort of system failure really.

If say Connolly and Flynn had kicked three or four wides between them out of the long range shots they took in the first half those two goal chances wouldn't be so remarkable as they are remembered.

Kerry, for instance, got two goals against Donegal, had one terrible miss for another goal and one or two further half chances, but kicked a load of wides - I don't think anyone would say Donegal had a systems failure in the final.

Giving up two good goal chances to Dublin (who created something like 12 against Monaghan in the previous game IIRC) is hardly a sign that you're falling apart. It was only the ridiculous points the wing forwards got that made it look like that.

harpsman

Stoner wrote: »

Not having a go, but this statement seems to be doing the rounds now. Running and chasing back is something you can only do to a level for so long. But kicking decent points is something good teams can maintain. The idea that teams get tired kicking the ball or what ever the rubbish is that brolly in particular has introduced is BS in my option. Dublin and donegal played out a very low scoring game in 2011. Murphy is an expert at long range scores and he'll score them at any stage. The idea that brolly is trying to paint that donegal had it 100% in the bag from the get go is rubbish. They fully deserved the win last year but they did not say that from the start that "let the Dubs use up their long range scores early on" there was a switch off from the Dubs, Donegal made some switches got momentum the better team won.

But calling everything that happened in that game as part of a 100% master plan as Brolly does is off the mark. Just like he was about Westmeath yesterday. Also both the lads missed the changes at corner back yesterday and how the backs faced Bray and McMahon during certain stages to block their view of the play so threy couldn't anticipated and make as many of the runs that they made in the first half. The more mobile guys in different positions, things that didn't happen in the first half . Or that meath tired.
Brolly is not capable of making some of the statements he makes. He would need super powers. He makes indepth statements months and years after games have been played painting a deeply tactical and controlled picture of how team set up. Some of it is complete rubbish. He'd have 5 all Irelands in a row as a manager if he actually did correctly call these situations. He's as guiltu at talking up teams as he is at breaking them into nothing.

Many teams win games by making tactical changes, it often happens that other other team can take the foot off the pedal as meath did a bit yesterday.

That's football it goes with you and against you. That's what happened with donegal and Dublin last year. Things developed and played out on the pitch that were part of no plan, and the best team won.
I seriously doubt at any stage that donegal planned to sit out Dublins long point kicking phase because no team can keep that up.
Donegal changed things up. And a management that sent a team out a year before against Mayo for an obliteration is not capable of such planning. Management had a huge impact on the decision last year, much of it by the Dublin manager, he's learning fair play to him. McGuinness learned in 2011, fair play to him.
Hats off to donegal but you have to be realistic at the same time. They are a very good team with great supporters but they are vulnerable to things not going their way too. Otherwise they would have won more. That is the only real type off hindsight statement you can make. Not let things pan our and then fit it into a plan.


Yesterday Kildare were terrible. Brolly and Co were actually amazed and taken back by how Dublin played. I've never seen him that "impressed" that will all go out the window if Dublin fall short. Dunlin were good yesterday, but Kildare were no test. As a result you can only say so much about Dublin. The lads went top far last night

The fact if the matter is that Kildare were terribly. They have better players that either can't or won't play for their manager. Something is badly wrong their. They have spent a lot at underage level,yet the senior team is in free fall.

Their halftime plan was up come out and slow things down get someone sent off, get the game finished and go home. There is a lot more football in Kildare than we saw yesterday. People in Kildare know it, there was no talk about that yesterday either. I thought the after match analysis yesterday was poor for both games.

By and large you re fairly correct there. Particularly about Brolly ****in on about how Donegal plan for everything.
However the point about the long range kicking I think he was making is that shots from that distance are a bit of a lottery and also Dublin did try a few later on in the first half which went badly wrong-giving the Donegal team and supporters a huge lift-one Paul Flynn attempt didnt even reach the 13m line so you cant say good players will kick long range points all day- if they could then why did Dublin stop doing it?

The main reason Dublin lost last year is that they completely dropped their intensity after 20 minutes and let Donegal walk in a few handy scores to get them back in the game followed by defending for the 2nd and 3rd goals that schoolboys would be embarrassed by. But it was still a masterclass by McGuinness and Donegal to take advantage.

Plus the Mayo game in 13 is a bit of a red herring as Donegal were dead on their feet as can happen to teams the year after winning an all ireland when it doesnt happen very often unless your a county that get to play all your games at home.

keane2097

bucketybuck wrote: »

Was it the mystical Donegal gameplan that stopped McCarthy and others pressing the ball around the half back line?

Its vague claims like that from Brolly that started this discussion and I'll say it again, Donegal did not manoeuvre themselves into a position where they could win, they just found themselves there and took full advantage. Nothing wrong with that as long as they realise that it wasn't because of any gameplan, it was because Dublin gave it to them.

I would have said taking advantage of teams over-committing to attack and not minding the house at the back is the gameplan.

You're talking about an incident in which James McCarthy failed to press the ball as it was moved in a square around him, which makes it sound like there were four players bearing down on a single, stranded half back and concluding that a lack of effort on the part of the half-back was the problem.

I don't know the exact incident you're talking about but to say Donegal fell into a situation like that unknowns to themselves sounds wrong.

DoctaDee

The flip side of Dublins profligacy in front of goals was Donegals conversion rate that day. I recall a statto posting Donegals conversion in excess of 80% which was the highest ever return since they started all these stats. Most Dublin supporters are happy to box off that Donegal game for what it was - and this years campaign is looking to address those short comings

Boom__Boom

keane2097 wrote: »

The Dublin - Donegal match I would say is somewhere in the middle of the two positions being taken here.

Dublin could have been miles ahead if they had taken their first half goal chances, but were only as far ahead as they were because they managed an extraordinary return on a load of Hail Mary shots in the first half.

Teams frequently manage to create goal chances against Donegal so I don't think that represents any sort of system failure really.

If say Connolly and Flynn had kicked three or four wides between them out of the long range shots they took in the first half those two goal chances wouldn't be so remarkable as they are remembered.

Kerry, for instance, got two goals against Donegal, had one terrible miss for another goal and one or two further half chances, but kicked a load of wides - I don't think anyone would say Donegal had a systems failure in the final.

Giving up two good goal chances to Dublin (who created something like 12 against Monaghan in the previous game IIRC) is hardly a sign that you're falling apart. It was only the ridiculous points the wing forwards got that made it look like that.

Pretty sure Dont Foul has some stuff on the low number of goal chances Donegal let teams have.

Found this about the final

Kerry had four shots at goal scoring 2-01.Although one of those shots was laid on a plate that is still not an insignificant achievement. The volume of goal shots allowed by Donegal this year was 1, 0, 2, 1 & 5 (vs the Dublin goal machine). In fact the only other teams to produce more than three goal shots since the start of 2012 are the aforementioned Dublin and Mayo in the 2013 quarter final rout.

Also his stats on the Donegal dublin semi (ignore the title of the URL) seeing as everyone seems to be discussing it.

https://dontfoul.wordpress.com/2014/09/03/kerry-v-mayo-replay-2014-championship-2/

gormdubhgorm

As a dub. I will admit Dublin were out thought on the side line last year v Donegal in AI. I was at the game. Dublin could not keep up the long range kicking and all out attacking. Mcgunness was very clever playing midfielders further forward as battering rams to hit ball to. The player who came on and changed the game was toye. When Dublin went behind they panicked b brogan was honest enough to admit it.

Jim Gavin was tactically stuborn . I will never understand how bastick stayed on the bench. A tailor made game for him. In saying all that though Dublin still could have won the game if the goal chances from connolly and b brogan went in.
People seem to forget that Donegal gathered momentum like Westmeath yesterday. While Dublin were rattled like Meath.
Anyone who says the sideline choices tactical choices do not contribute to such momentum is either blind or a lier.
Gavin learnt his lesson and has now tweaked his tactics as shown by the Kildare game yesterday. Defend at the right times then break but not too hung ho. Fewest goals conceced in div 1 and a league title victory again prove it.

bucketybuck

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Anyone who says the sideline choices tactical choices do not contribute to such momentum is either blind or a lier.

Good job nobody is saying that then.

gormdubhgorm

bucketybuck wrote: »

Good job nobody is saying that then.

That is what seems to be implied that Donegal had no game plan , some are saying. it was obvious they did and it wore dublin down.Dublin's gameplan was long range points and it worked for about 20mins.

bucketybuck

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is what seems to be implied Donegal had no game plan some are saying it was obvious they did and it wore dublin down.Dublin's gameplan was long range points and it worked for about 20mins.

Donegals gameplan did not wear Dublin down. Dublin were well able to cope with Donegals initial gameplan and as such that game could easily have been over at halftime. You are taking the final result and happily believing that it must have been Donegals plan all along, just as Brolly did.

Donegals initial gameplan simply did not work. Now, the tactical adjustments once they realised Dublin were standing off them in the 2nd half are a different matter. They worked and were exactly what they needed to do once they assessed the situation.

intellectual dosser

bucketybuck wrote: »

Was it the mystical Donegal gameplan that stopped McCarthy and others pressing the ball around the half back line?

Its vague claims like that from Brolly that started this discussion and I'll say it again, Donegal did not manoeuvre themselves into a position where they could win, they just found themselves there and took full advantage. Nothing wrong with that as long as they realise that it wasn't because of any gameplan, it was because Dublin gave it to them.

This is laughable.

If you're on the boil a bit having to respond to people here then I understand, but if you actually thought this was true then surely Jim Gavin would have been relieved of his duties shortly after?

Jayop

The three 2b qualifiers in the north are all to be played on the eve of the twelfth. make an unusual difference seeing loads of southern cars going up that weekend rather than the usual sight of all the northern regs leaving the place.

dofoul

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Pretty sure Dont Foul has some stuff on the low number of goal chances Donegal let teams have.

Missed the 2013 Laois qualifier and haven't completed the Armagh game from this year yet but the goal attempts Donegal have conceded since the start of 2012 are (oldest first)

2 1 3 1 1 3 1 3 0 1 9 (Mayo QF '13) 1 0 2 1 5 (Dublin '14 SF) 4 (Kerry '14 F) 6 (Tyrone '15) 2

elefant

I think it's crazy to suggest Donegal didn't have a gameplan again Dublin last year that contributed hugely to a great victory. At that level no team wins anything without a gameplan. The point of contention would much more reasonably be with Brolly's theory that Donegal, Dublin and Kerry are ahead of everyone else because they 'don't leave anything to chance'.

Mayo didn't lose all-irelands because they, unlike their opponents, 'left things to chance' (whatever that actually means) but because they came up against better teams. This idea of flawless tactics is complete garbage.

bucketybuck

intellectual dosser wrote: »

If you're on the boil a bit having to respond to people here then I understand, but if you actually thought this was true then surely Jim Gavin would have been relieved of his duties shortly after?

Your logic does not follow. Dublin showed in that game that they easily had the beating of that Donegal side, and had they just continued to play as they had done for the entire year they would have done just that.

So why did they stop playing towards the end of the 1st half? I can suggest reasons and not all of them were Jim Gavins fault. The Dublin players slacking off in a match in which they were yet again cruising to victory does not automatically mean Gavin should have been sacked.

intellectual dosser

bucketybuck wrote: »

Your logic does not follow. Dublin showed in that game that they easily had the beating of that Donegal side, and had they just continued to play as they had done for the entire year they would have done just that.

So why did they stop playing towards the end of the 1st half? I can suggest reasons and not all of them were Jim Gavins fault. The Dublin players slacking off in a match in which they were yet again cruising to victory does not automatically mean Gavin should have been sacked.

It's been 10 months and you're the first Dublin supporter I've seen take this angle.

Donegal were better, 6 points better. You're going to have to make peace with it.

This year, whole new story.

bucketybuck

intellectual dosser wrote: »

It's been 10 months and you're the first Dublin supporter I've seen take this angle.

Donegal were better, 6 points better. You're going to have to make peace with it.

This year, whole new story.

I'm not a Dublin supporter.

gormdubhgorm

bucketybuck wrote: »

Your logic does not follow. Dublin showed in that game that they easily had the beating of that Donegal side, and had they just continued to play as they had done for the entire year they would have done just that.

So why did they stop playing towards the end of the 1st half? I can suggest reasons and not all of them were Jim Gavins fault. The Dublin players slacking off in a match in which they were yet again cruising to victory does not automatically mean Gavin should have been sacked.

You have just shown the flaw in your argument Dublin "had" the beating of Donegal easy. But they did not win.
1) They went too hung ho in attack been exposed to doneagal on the break.
2) when Dublin went behind they panicked

What contributed to this panic and reason Dublin lost ? It was Donegals tatictical nous and "game plan". Dublin had no plan b they did not plan on falling behind. After that they were running like headless chickens making it ideal for Donegals tactics or dare I say it Game plan!

In summary Dublin's lack of adaptability allowed Donegals tactics to flourish. Simple as that therefore Donegals gameplan worked. Unlike the 2011 semi where Donegal could not get the lead.

bucketybuck

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You have just shown the flaw in your argument Dublin "had" the beating of Donegal easy. But they did not win.
1) They went too hung ho in attack been exposed to doneagal on the break.

Your recollection is faulty. When Dublin were on the attack they had no problems handling Donegal. It was only when they stopped pressing and dropped intensity that they started being exposed.

It was not Donegals master plan that caused Dublin to suddenly stop pressing the ball, unless you seriously believe that master plan also included letting Dublin spank them around the field for the first 20 minutes.

ultrapercy

The cult of the manager has taken off big time in GAA. Tactics are over rated they are not non existent, but they are just an element of success. There are many elements including luck which is very important in any knock out competition. Talent is by far the most important element and what Jim McGuinness brought to the Donegal set up was an organisation and discipline to add to that latent talent that all ready existed. People like Brolly like to make themselves appear clever by portraying the game as very complicated and intricate, it is not it is largely very simple. Good players win matches if structures exist for their talent to flourish. Donegal were lucky against Dublin last year because Dublin could have been out of sight. They didn't panic had faith in themselves and their plan and took their chance when it was presented to them, not purely because of a managerial master plan or tactics.

Jayop

ultrapercy wrote: »

The cult of the manager has taken off big time in GAA. Tactics are over rated they are not non existent, but they are just an element of success. There are many elements including luck which is very important in any knock out competition. Talent is by far the most important element and what Jim McGuinness brought to the Donegal set up was an organisation and discipline to add to that latent talent that all ready existed. People like Brolly like to make themselves appear clever by portraying the game as very complicated and intricate, it is not it is largely very simple. Good players win matches if structures exist for their talent to flourish. Donegal were lucky against Dublin last year because Dublin could have been out of sight. They didn't panic had faith in themselves and their plan and took their chance when it was presented to them, not purely because of a managerial master plan or tactics.

Of course you need good players to win games, but a team with better individuals can be beat by a lesser side that's better organised. This happens more and more in the last 20 years than ever before. Simple things like proper kick out tactics can have a huge bearing on the game because possession is everything in modern football.

You still need players to kick the ball over the bar, but if you don't have the ball those players are nullified.