The 2015 All Ireland Senior Football Championship

cj maxx

K-9 wrote: »

I did clear that up after, 55 years is stretching the comparison a bit, particularly as there was no club championship then!

Oh , didnt see that

corny

I generally take issue with the words 'Natural Footballer'. It implies something comes effortlessly which just isn't the case. Funny MDM was mentioned as a natural. Actually by his own admission he isn't "naturally gifted" (his words). However he was prepared to always work harder than the lad next to him and that made him best player in the country one year. Says it all for me.

Bringing it back to Donegal V Dublin. What i see with Donegal is a group of lads who work as hard or even harder that any group in the country. Whats key (thanks to Jim Mc) is their work is effective. Are they more 'natural' than Dublin? Who gives a **** because it doesn't matter. The hard work makes them effective, at every aspect of the game, and thats all that matters.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Just after watching the Westmeath match again and one thing that it highighted for me that in spite of it regularly being suggested that fisted points should be banned , banning fisted points would be an absolutely terrible idea.

Twice in the second half Kieran Martin cut inside the corner back near the end line and had a very tight angle to get a score.It would have been almost impossible to kick a score as the goalie was coming out to meet him so his only option was to fist the ball over the bar.

Without the option for the fisted point Martin's excellent corner forward play wouldn't have been rewarded.

STB.

K-9 wrote: »

That's hilarious, we're under achievers, must make Dublin chronic under achievers and bottlers in that case.

The current Dublin team have won 2 All Irelands in the last 4 years and 3 League Titles in the last 3 years.

Donegal have won 2 All Irelands in their history, the last of which was three years ago. What part of under achievment do you not understand.

Just trying to bring a semblance of reality to the deluded people talking out their backside about "the naturaly intelligient footballers of Donegal" and Dublin having "a lot of younger lads who haven't really had to go round the block".

Yis are gass. Nice try though.

keane2097

danganabu wrote: »

Genuinely shocked at that stat, while he not a very likeable person, he is definitely one of the best players in teh country for the last 5-6 years, goes to show what a bit of a joke the All Stars are when comparing lads achievements.

Five or six years ago he probably wasn't in the top 20 footballers in the country, get a grip.

keane2097

STB. wrote: »

The current Dublin team have won 2 All Irelands in the last 4 years and 3 League Titles in the last 3 years.

I always find it amusing that if we were in a different thread that stat would be written as "four All Irelands in 35 years"

Nidgeweasel

keane2097 wrote: »

I always find it amusing that if we were in a different thread that stat would be written as "four All Irelands in 35 years"

Some underachievement that.

ciarriaithuaidh

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Just after watching the Westmeath match again and one thing that it highighted for me that in spite of it regularly being suggested that fisted points should be banned , banning fisted points would be an absolutely terrible idea.

Twice in the second half Kieran Martin cut inside the corner back near the end line and had a very tight angle to get a score.It would have been almost impossible to kick a score as the goalie was coming out to meet him so his only option was to fist the ball over the bar.

Without the option for the fisted point Martin's excellent corner forward play wouldn't have been rewarded.

Agreed..one rule change made in modern times that was spot on.

STB.

keane2097 wrote: »

I always find it amusing that if we were in a different thread that stat would be written as "four All Irelands in 35 years"

The relevance of the stat is to the current Dublin squad vs the current "naturally intelligient footballers of Donegal". I dont think any player has managed to sustain 35 years on a County Panel.

Please do try an keep up.

keane2097

STB. wrote: »

The relevance of the stat is to the current Dublin squad vs the current "naturally intelligient footballers of Donegal". I dont think any player has managed to sustain 35 years on a County Panel.

Please do try an keep up.

Where would I get an keep up at this hour?

keane2097

For the record I'm deeply sorry for not making it clear that I was making a flippant, tangential remark.

STB.

keane2097 wrote: »

For the record I'm deeply sorry for not making it clear that I was making a flippant, tangential remark.

Not just flippant and tangential, it was also irrelevant, but it broke the monotony at least.

dog_pig

STB. wrote: »

AI Club medals (not provincial) ONTOP of their AI Championship medals.

None of your current players have even 2 All Ireland medals, let alone the handfull of NFL medals that the current Dublin team have.

Yes then I mentioned All Stars. Count them.

Donegal are underachievers for all the rubbish their fans talk. I suppose the reasoning is that if they say it enough it might come true. It might be better to stay in the bubble that the Donegal thread is. Some wake up call coming this year.

Haha you need to relax man.

K-9

STB. wrote: »

The current Dublin team have won 2 All Irelands in the last 4 years and 3 League Titles in the last 3 years.

Donegal have won 2 All Irelands in their history, the last of which was three years ago. What part of under achievment do you not understand.

Just trying to bring a semblance of reality to the deluded people talking out their backside about "the naturaly intelligient footballers of Donegal" and Dublin having "a lot of younger lads who haven't really had to go round the block".

Yis are gass. Nice try though.

Dougal, these are very small, those are far away.

Not much point adding much else tbh. Donegal are clearly over achieving, this group of players has no AI minor or U21 medals for a start, a flew played in a final but that's about it. How anybody could try and even attempt a comparison between us and Dublin as if both are equal is truely awe inspiring.

bucketybuck

K-9 wrote: »

Not much point adding much else tbh. Donegal are clearly over achieving, this group of players has no AI minor or U21 medals for a start, a flew played in a final but that's about it. How anybody could try and even attempt a comparison between us and Dublin as if both are equal is truely awe inspiring.

Yeah! One is a bunch of naturally talented footballers who won the national league before going onto improve and win the All-Ireland.

The other is Dublin.

MattB11

Ridiculous to suggest this Donegal team have under achieved, 3 provincial and a second ever all Ireland title in 4 years? This is the best Donegal there has ever been and the fact we piss off so many people in the process makes it all the better.

ArielAtom

From the last few pages we can now put the split Dublin (Underachievers) in two argument and move it to Donegal (Overachievers):rolleyes:

K-9

bucketybuck wrote: »

Yeah! One is a bunch of naturally talented footballers who won the national league before going onto improve and win the All-Ireland.

The other is Dublin.

Yeah, there were loads of people on here in 2010 who thought Donegal would go on to win an AI, get to a final and win 3 Ulsters in the following 5 years.
These same people couldn't see 2012 coming never mind 2015.

But yeah, let people compare Dublin and Donegal, the soccer boys can compare Manchester United and Aston Villa and wonder why Villa haven't won the same as United!

bucketybuck

K-9 wrote: »

Yeah, there were loads of people on here in 2010 who thought Donegal would go on to win an AI, get to a final and win 3 Ulsters in the following 5 years.
These same people couldn't see 2012 coming never mind 2015?

Sure why not? It was a group of naturally talented footballers, one of the most naturally talented group of players in the country surpassing even the likes of Dublin, and they were recent league champions so why could people not see any success in the future for them?

Farmer Pudsey

It is quite obivious that Donegal and Dublin are the best football teams in the country with Mayo and Cork the next best teams. One of these four are going to colect Sam

DDC1990

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is quite obivious that Donegal and Dublin are the best football teams in the country with Mayo and Cork the next best teams. One of these four are going to colect Sam

Yup, exactly like last year. I can't see any team outside these 4 winning...

ArielAtom

Personally I think it is more like this.

1. Donegal (Nailed on for Sam) #naturalfootballers (only ones in Ireland)

2. Monaghan

3. Derry, Armagh,Tyrone, Down, Fermanagh, Antrim,

4. Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Mayo.

5. Galway, Westmeath

6. Limerick, Meath, Kildare et all;)

corcaigh07

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Just after watching the Westmeath match again and one thing that it highighted for me that in spite of it regularly being suggested that fisted points should be banned , banning fisted points would be an absolutely terrible idea.

Twice in the second half Kieran Martin cut inside the corner back near the end line and had a very tight angle to get a score.It would have been almost impossible to kick a score as the goalie was coming out to meet him so his only option was to fist the ball over the bar.

Without the option for the fisted point Martin's excellent corner forward play wouldn't have been rewarded.

Agreed, however the open palm handpass over the bar should definitely be outlawed.

Fr Tod Umptious

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Just after watching the Westmeath match again and one thing that it highighted for me that in spite of it regularly being suggested that fisted points should be banned , banning fisted points would be an absolutely terrible idea.

Twice in the second half Kieran Martin cut inside the corner back near the end line and had a very tight angle to get a score.It would have been almost impossible to kick a score as the goalie was coming out to meet him so his only option was to fist the ball over the bar.

Without the option for the fisted point Martin's excellent corner forward play wouldn't have been rewarded.

And the Meath guys should have done the very same at the other end as the game entered injury time and they were 1pt down.

Taken the point and either tried to win it in injury time or settle for the replay, with both Graham Reilly and the other black cared player back in the starting team.

Instead they went for goal, lost the ball and conceded at the other end.

A fisted point is a great sign of an intelligent player if you ask me.

willabur

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

A fisted point is a great sign of an intelligent player if you ask me.

Given a wee bit of context it can be. Take your points the goals will come is a saying nearly as old as the game itself. All that said It is way more exciting when a player does go for goal.

Boom__Boom

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Just after watching the Westmeath match again and one thing that it highighted for me that in spite of it regularly being suggested that fisted points should be banned , banning fisted points would be an absolutely terrible idea.

Twice in the second half Kieran Martin cut inside the corner back near the end line and had a very tight angle to get a score.It would have been almost impossible to kick a score as the goalie was coming out to meet him so his only option was to fist the ball over the bar.

Without the option for the fisted point Martin's excellent corner forward play wouldn't have been rewarded.

Maybe make any point kicked outside the 45 a 2 pointer - you see a great point kicked from distance and then you see a fisted point and the reward for both is equal.

Might need to change the goal to 4 points.

willabur

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Maybe make any point kicked outside the 45 a 2 pointer - you see a great point kicked from distance and then you see a fisted point and the reward for both is equal.

Might need to change the goal to 4 points.

I would argue that getting the ball into a position where it can be fisted over the bar is just as worthy of a point as kicking it from out the field.

bucketybuck

willabur wrote: »

I would argue that getting the ball into a position where it can be fisted over the bar is just as worthy of a point as kicking it from out the field.

Exactly. Some lad just putting his foot through the ball from 45 yards because he has no other option gets the same point as a full field move involving 8 players, 4 long kick passes and a lot of interplay which ends with the ball slipped to a forward 10 yards out for the finish.

DoctaDee

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is quite obivious that Donegal and Dublin are the best football teams in the country with Mayo and Cork the next best teams. One of these four are going to colect Sam

DDC1990 wrote: »

Yup, exactly like last year. I can't see any team outside these 4 winning...

I'd love to see an outsider like Kerry play Dublin in the final. It would give them a chamce to win a proper All Ireland after Donegal did the hard work for them last year

Bogsnorkler

So we're agreed that if it is the case that Donegal have the most naturally talented footballers in the country, then they have massively underachieved in the past few years?

Boom__Boom

willabur wrote: »

I would argue that getting the ball into a position where it can be fisted over the bar is just as worthy of a point as kicking it from out the field.

Sometimes it can be as a result of a good kickpass (however if it is such a good pass that close to goal surely the reward is that you can created the potential for a goal chance )- how many times does a fisted pass occur where the forward near goal fails to get off a chance at goal and the move ends up with the fisted point being taken. I'm not arguing that there should be no score for the fisted point, I'm arguing that a point kicked for distance should be worth that bit more.

Also sometimes it can be as a result of a ball just lumped forward or a side handpassing up the pitch. Oftentimes a fisted pass is the sign of a player simply not being able to kick a point.

A great point from distance is a thing of beauty and a joy for ever - should we not be rewarding this skill a bit more ?

bucketybuck

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Sometimes it can be as a result of a good kickpass (however if it is such a good pass that close to goal surely the reward is that you can created the potential for a goal chance )- how many times does a fisted pass occur where the forward near goal fails to get off a chance at goal and the move ends up with the fisted point being taken. I'm not arguing that there should be no score for the fisted point, I'm arguing that a point kicked for distance should be worth that bit more.

Also sometimes it can be as a result of a ball just lumped forward or a side handpassing up the pitch. Oftentimes a fisted pass is the sign of a player simply not being able to kick a point.

A great point from distance is a thing of beauty and a joy for ever - should we not be rewarding this skill a bit more ?

I would say the vast majority of fisted points are from a player bringing the ball in from an acute angle, rather than after a scramble/goal chance in the box.

Ceist_Beag

Boom__Boom wrote: »

A great point from distance is a thing of beauty and a joy for ever - should we not be rewarding this skill a bit more ?

No because it would just encourage lads to take a punt from distance rather than opt for the more skillful option of trying to pick out an inside forward. It would also encourage lads to come further out the pitch thus bunching midfield even more. It takes more effort and work on the training ground to figure out ways of getting the ball into positions closer to goal where the percentage of scoring is higher - I'm all for encouraging this, not discouraging it.

Dyr

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

A fisted point is a great sign of an intelligent player if you ask me.

Yes but is it a sign of a naturally intelligent player? :pac:

willabur

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Sometimes it can be as a result of a good kickpass (however if it is such a good pass that close to goal surely the reward is that you can created the potential for a goal chance )- how many times does a fisted pass occur where the forward near goal fails to get off a chance at goal and the move ends up with the fisted point being taken. I'm not arguing that there should be no score for the fisted point, I'm arguing that a point kicked for distance should be worth that bit more.

Also sometimes it can be as a result of a ball just lumped forward or a side handpassing up the pitch. Oftentimes a fisted pass is the sign of a player simply not being able to kick a point.

A great point from distance is a thing of beauty and a joy for ever - should we not be rewarding this skill a bit more ?

The scenario you describe where a ball is lumped in more often than not results in a ball that is won by a defender or more likely again goes out of play. Also I have seen many long range points that have come from a swinger of a boot been thrown at it.

As someone else said, these points tend to be taken mostly from an angle where the chance of a goal is greatly reduced. Where an anomoly does exist is if a player on the endline inside the box is fouled its given as a penalty when the likelihood of him scoring a goal is minimal, For me if the chance he had on was a point then a free is all that should be given but it would be impossible to enforce that rule. That said I feel alot of penalties given are unfair

K-9

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

And the Meath guys should have done the very same at the other end as the game entered injury time and they were 1pt down.

Taken the point and either tried to win it in injury time or settle for the replay, with both Graham Reilly and the other black cared player back in the starting team.

Instead they went for goal, lost the ball and conceded at the other end.

A fisted point is a great sign of an intelligent player if you ask me.

They were 2 fine points that he got, but IIRC the chance for a goal was on if he'd passed for one of them. Those are the fine lines, if Heslins shot had been saved people would be saying he was greedy and mad to shoot!

Farmer Pudsey

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

No because it would just encourage lads to take a punt from distance rather than opt for the more skillful option of trying to pick out an inside forward. It would also encourage lads to come further out the pitch thus bunching midfield even more. It takes more effort and work on the training ground to figure out ways of getting the ball into positions closer to goal where the percentage of scoring is higher - I'm all for encouraging this, not discouraging it.

At present in the GAA to few players can score from distance. The reason for this is at least two fold. At inter county level few team leave room or time on the ball around the 45 yard line. At training more and more time is spend doing handpass and running drills instead of kicking drills. this leave the situtation where a hand pass is often incoporated into a kicking drill vica versa dose not happen. At underage in most counties with the exception of 2-3 counties most young players spend too much time doing hand passing or soloing drills and not enought time kicking the ball.

However there is exceptions, in the 1012 and 2013 championship mayo scored a lot of long distance points up until the final but tight marking and nerves caught them in both finals. Last year they tried to run with the ball in hand too much.

15 years ago we were nearly on par with the aussies for long distance score now we are way behind them. When you consider they use an oval ball. this is a bad stastic. I do not have any issue with a fisted point neither do I consider long range point taking lucky. I saw it at a club game latley by an old junior team where they kicked any chance they got. They had spotted a weakness in the younger team in that they were dependent on the short kick out. They closed this down were wining 70% of long kickouts and just kicked from distance knowing there was a 70% chance they would win the kick out or if the younger team got the ball under pressure that they had a good chance getting it back. They scored about 30% of these.

If you reward the long distance point more teams will practice them. Not sure if I would tinker with it however. I was more intrested in the suggestion that for any kick out or at the start of halves that the goalie would have to kick to beyond the 45 line. That the only players allowed between the 45's are the mid fielders and that each team had to have 6 out field players behind and beyond the 45 yard line. There players could not encroch into the middle area until either the ball was touched or hit the ground. Not sure again if I would bring it in but it was an interesting idea.

Dr Crippen

Kicking has to be developed from when a youngster first starts playing the game. You will always have naturally gifted scorers from distance but it essentially is hours and hours of practice and muscle memory, as all you folks know.

I would agree with the post above, a lot of time is spent at my club developing hand passing exercises, running drills and strategies. When I first started playing (fado fado) time was always spent at the beginning of training sessions practicing kicking and again at the end and it paid off, for me anyway. I dont see as much of this taking place and in turn there is a reduction of long distance scoring, and for example as you can see from the amount of scores Kildare put wide against Dublin, accuracy.

K-9

I suppose the blanket defence type system haven't helped either, it was easier to get big long range scores 15/20 years ago as less pressure was put on the kicker.

Dr Crippen

I don't know I see plenty of lads kicking from distance, some teams have it nailed on and others, like my own county, Kildare, are fairly abysmal at it. It also helps when you have the players who are very talented anyway, its certainly a diminishing skill/ talent.

dcrosskid

Michael Murphy scored a massive point last weekend, he was nearly 10 yards behind. the 45 & cleared it with a bit to spare. Absolute class.

Dr Crippen

Yeah he is exceptional at it in fairness, the gooch, too many Dublin players to mention, but throughout all the counties they are like hens teeth, or maybe its match day nerves, who knows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iS6V4cduZk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXEONcn_4XM

keane2097

I'm not sure I'm following the argument properly but if ye're saying players were way better at kicking points from 50 yards in the good old days ye're talking a load of ****e IMO.

Jayop

It's the old "skills of the game being lost" argument. It's completely wrong too. I'd say any county panel from the top 3 divisions would probably win 10 in a row in the 60's with the current skill sets and conditioning.

The reason people say players can't foot pass now is because they don't like all the hand passing. Players now only foot pass when it's on whereas in the olden days they just launched it up the field aimlessly.

Same with the shooting. People don't realise that the average scoring in games is going up all the time so shooting must be improving despite defensive set ups.

Between 1960 - 1964 the AI finals had 124 points scored
Between 2010 - 2014 the AI finals had 154 points scored

That's 6 points per game more on average.

K-9

Sure the Down team 60 & 61 ruined the game for the traditionalists, the death knell of Gaelic football with all that breaking ball in midfield stuff.

Dr Crippen

keane2097 wrote: »

I'm not sure I'm following the argument properly but if ye're saying players were way better at kicking points from 50 yards in the good old days ye're talking a load of ****e IMO.

No your not actually, I included a Michael Murphy clip, I'm saying accuracy and time spent on it in training has reduced, imo

Jayop

K-9 wrote: »

Sure the Down team 60 & 61 ruined the game for the traditionalists, the death knell of Gaelic football with all that breaking ball in midfield stuff.

Typical northerners. tsk tsk

keane2097

Dr Crippen wrote: »

No your not actually, I included a Michael Murphy clip, I'm saying accuracy and time spent on it in training has reduced, imo

But you're not saying players are worse at it than before?

Farmer Pudsey

Jayop wrote: »

It's the old "skills of the game being lost" argument. It's completely wrong too. I'd say any county panel from the top 3 divisions would probably win 10 in a row in the 60's with the current skill sets and conditioning.

The reason people say players can't foot pass now is because they don't like all the hand passing. Players now only foot pass when it's on whereas in the olden days they just launched it up the field aimlessly.

Same with the shooting. People don't realise that the average scoring in games is going up all the time so shooting must be improving despite defensive set ups.

Between 1960 - 1964 the AI finals had 124 points scored
Between 2010 - 2014 the AI finals had 154 points scored

That's 6 points per game more on average.

The gap is not as wide as you think I think it was a 60 minute game then as opposed to a 70 minute now. Allowing for that in 60-64 they would have scored 145 points.

When you take fitness and that the they were using a leather ball back then as opposed to a synethic now that will be fairly water resistance and it changes the perpective. Add to that that the consistancy of the the footballs nowdays by O'Neills means that the ball a player practices with at training is an exact replica of the ball that is thrown in every Sunday. Every leather ball was different leather would have slightly different thickness and imperfections. The modern inter county ground has a perfect surface and Croke Park is in a league of it own. 180 points was the total from 70-74 (still 30 minutes halves, I think), 80-84 was only 126, 148 points from 90-94, 139 points scored from 00-04.

There are lies damm lies and stastics. You have to factor in goals scored, the dominace of teams, winning margin. The amount of frees that were scored in games.

In practice if you put an average inter county player outside the 45 meter line with ten balls how many would he score, I gamble that the average intercounty player of the 60's and 70's would score more because that was how he warmed up.

K-9

Good post.

We had 80 minutes final for a few years as well.