The 2015 All Ireland Senior Football Championship

TCDStudent1

threeball wrote: »

My point was they had better form than Armagh by quite a bit and the result couldn't be described as a poor result anymore than if Galway draw Tyrone in the next round and lost. It could go either way. A couple of analysts have described Galway as the best team in division 2 this year with 2nd half concentration costing them almost nailed on wins. They were more than capable of putting Armagh to the sword. Hopefully they'll get past the next round and have some chance of seeing Shane Walsh return.

To be honest, if Galway were the best team in division 2, they wouldn't have lost concentration in those matches where they lost big leads. The way in which they lost matches they should have won proved to me that they were not the best team in division 2!

threeball

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

To be honest, if Galway were the best team in division 2, they wouldn't have lost concentration in those matches where they lost big leads. The way in which they lost matches they should have won proved to me that they were not the best team in division 2!

A bit more depth and leaders like Lundy and Sice would have added alot to that team and I've no doubt they would have been promoted. They were by no means the finished article but the football they played at times was superior to other teams in the division. The poor mouth won't do them any good. They need to have ambition and so should the fans.

ArmaniJeanss

keane2097 wrote: »

It does seem there's a general belief that teams from Ulster are better than teams from everywhere else despite any preponderance of evidence.

You love your stats fats.
Maybe take time to go through championship matches between teams from different provinces over the last year, 5 years, and 10 years. Any province with over 50% win rate is plausibly stronger than any with <50% win rate.

I've genuinely no idea what the results are but would be interested to see.
We can then get someone else to maybe exclude the first round of qualifiers and do it again (as first round is Leinster/Ulster topheavy and may skew the results).

thinkstoomuch1

Delighted Galway won and I'm fan Walsh and said it on Cork thread many times mcgenney poor manager but way over rated

slogging...it

It's pretty ironic calling Leinster teams kings of the what if league when ulster teams claim to fame is, the there sysnisism and will not to play football is ruinning football, Westmeath football should hang there head in shame fr implementing that muck and dropping the football that gt them that far is is nt better to loose by 20 and score 20

glenkeo

Hi am I right in thinking that there is 2 teams left on the A side of qualifiers Kildare and Fermanagh, how will play Westmeath or cork/Kerry.
And on the B side Derry, Tyrone, tipp, Galway will play to 2 teams next week then play the looser of ulster /Connacht
Then 2 teams from the A side will play Dublin or cork/Kerry
Then 2 teams from B side will play ulster/Connacht
Then it is leinster v Connacht and ulster v munster or the team that beats one of the provincial winners

jethro081

slogging...it wrote: »

It's pretty ironic calling Leinster teams kings of the what if league when ulster teams claim to fame is, the there sysnisism and will not to play football is ruinning football, Westmeath football should hang there head in shame fr implementing that muck and dropping the football that gt them that far is is nt better to loose by 20 and score 20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CWIIoSf4nw

Fr Tod Umptious

glenkeo wrote: »

Hi am I right in thinking that there is 2 teams left on the A side of qualifiers Kildare and Fermanagh, how will play Westmeath or cork/Kerry.
And on the B side Derry, Tyrone, tipp, Galway will play to 2 teams next week then play the looser of ulster /Connacht
Then 2 teams from the A side will play Dublin or cork/Kerry
Then 2 teams from B side will play ulster/Connacht
Then it is leinster v Connacht and ulster v munster or the team that beats one of the provincial winners

That's exactly how it is with the caveat that in the quarter final the provincial winner cannot meet the team they beat in the provincial final.

Nidgeweasel

slogging...it wrote: »

It's pretty ironic calling Leinster teams kings of the what if league when ulster teams claim to fame is, the there sysnisism and will not to play football is ruinning football, Westmeath football should hang there head in shame fr implementing that muck and dropping the football that gt them that far is is nt better to loose by 20 and score 20

Eloquent.

Fr Tod Umptious

3 B draw (Home advantage)

Tipp v Tyrone
Galway v Derry

4 A draw (Neutral venue)
Kildare v Cork/Kerry
Fermanagh v Westmeath

Hibbeler

Westmeath and Fermanagh both have a great change of a qf based on that draw

Ceist_Beag

Great draw in 3B. I fancy Tipp might just beat Tyrone, no doubt there will be mention of the U21s to stoke things up a bit! Galway v Derry is a hard one to call - home advantage may help Galway but Derry look like the strongest team in the B qualifiers so I think they might win out here.
I think Kildare have gone as far as they can but Fermanagh v Westmeath is a great draw for both counties, it would be great to see either in a QF.

Fr Tod Umptious

Hibbeler wrote: »

Westmeath and Fermanagh both have a great change of a qf based on that draw

Moral should be good in Fermanagh.
And Westmeath got less destroyed by Dublin than others did so they will be looking on the positives.

intellectual dosser

Westmeath lost by less that Dublin's average Leinster opponents, but they still only scored 6 points. I guess its a matter of perspective, the team psychologist has his work cut out.

Fr Tod Umptious

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Westmeath lost by less that Dublin's average Leinster opponents, but they still only scored 6 points. I guess its a matter of perspective, the team psychologist has his work cut out.

They had a plan and that plan was to park the bus and take their chances on the break.
That was about all they could do.
It worked fine in the first half, although their shooting could have been better.

Unlike other teams they did not get blown away in the opening quarter.

So going into a game v Fermanagh on neutral ground they will be in decent enough shape.

intellectual dosser

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

They had a plan and that plan was to park the bus and take their chances on the break.
That was about all they could do.
It worked fine in the first half, although their shooting could have been better.

Unlike other teams they did not get blown away in the opening quarter.

So going into a game v Fermanagh on neutral ground they will be in decent enough shape.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but it could easily be turned on its head to say that the Westmeath team executed the managements plan and then only scored 6 points and lost by 13.

They can spin positives no doubt, but I wouldn't get carried away. Croke Park as part of a double header would significantly improve their chances IMO

CurryFlavoured

Tipp - Tyrone is interesting. Tempted to back Tipp odds depending.

JB81

Interesting draws all right.
My own county travelling to Tipp will be tough, very tough, but we need tough games to see where we are. I do think we may just have enough but we will have to score more than we did against Meath.
I always thought that if we could get to a quarter final it would have been a decent year. 'If' we beat Tipp then we would need to be drawing Sligo and i think we would get to Croke Park. Otherwise it will be another Ulster battle against Monaghan ( i think Donegal will beat them ), which i dont think we are ready for..
I think Derry Galway will also be close, but Derry to just shade it.
Massive game for Fermanagh and Westmeath to get into a quarter final.
End of the road for Kildare.

threeball

Derry are a horrible draw for Galway. Much better chance of advancing v Tyrone or Tipp but Derry can shut up shop better than most teams.

Fr Tod Umptious

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

You love your stats fats.
Maybe take time to go through championship matches between teams from different provinces over the last year, 5 years, and 10 years. Any province with over 50% win rate is plausibly stronger than any with <50% win rate.

I've genuinely no idea what the results are but would be interested to see.
We can then get someone else to maybe exclude the first round of qualifiers and do it again (as first round is Leinster/Ulster topheavy and may skew the results).

Ok So I did some research and this is what is shows

Win % in inter province Championship games betrween 2001 and yesterday.

OverAll
Ulster 59%
Munster 53%
Leinster 47%
Connacht 37%

2011 to yesterday inclusive
Ulster 56%
Munster 51%
Leinster 46%
Connacht 41%

2006 to 2010 inclusive
Munster 62%
Ulster 56%
Leinster 53%
Connacht 19%

2001 to 2005 inclusive
Ulster 67%
Munster 45%
Connacht 45%
Leinster 39%

Some highlights
2003 - Ulster 87% (14 -2)

And some low lights
2008 and 2010 - Connacht 0% (0-3, 0-6)

seanhynes

will Harte leave if they lose to Tipperary? Hes there so long surely they need to freshen things up

ardmacha

threeball wrote: »

My point was they had better form than Armagh by quite a bit and the result couldn't be described as a poor result anymore than if Galway draw Tyrone in the next round and lost. It could go either way. A couple of analysts have described Galway as the best team in division 2 this year with 2nd half concentration costing them almost nailed on wins. They were more than capable of putting Armagh to the sword. Hopefully they'll get past the next round and have some chance of seeing Shane Walsh return.

Galway and Armagh are about the same level, division 2 material. While Armagh dropped to div 3 it could have been Galway and they came straight back up. You'd expect Armagh to shade yesterday's game with home advantage.

The earlier comments here, and elsewhere, are not to do with Galway. Armagh's performance was less than last year and this is not good regardless of who they play. Galway played decently, but not exceptionally, and won't be sitting on their laurels.

Jayop

Worst possible draw for my side, Tyrone. I'd have really fancied us against Galway or Derry and would have loved it to be in Galway as it's handy for me. Every single article and internet post in the run up to this game will be prefaced by the U21 thing and any in game incident will as always be blown out of all proportion. I hope the game is on Sky rather than RTE anyway but I'll try to make my way down to it.

As for Galway and Derry I'd fancy Galway to get a result at home but both games are going to be too close to call.

willabur

Jayop wrote: »

Worst possible draw for my side, Tyrone. I'd have really fancied us against Galway or Derry and would have loved it to be in Galway as it's handy for me. Every single article and internet post in the run up to this game will be prefaced by the U21 thing and any in game incident will as always be blown out of all proportion. I hope the game is on Sky rather than RTE anyway but I'll try to make my way down to it.

As for Galway and Derry I'd fancy Galway to get a result at home but both games are going to be too close to call.

Hopefully Tipp do the job - we need a new team at the table. They were the best time in that u21 final but seemed to lack belief to carry it through

Wacker The Attacker

Roll on all Ireland QF day

MattB11

CurryFlavoured wrote:

Tipp - Tyrone is interesting. Tempted to back Tipp odds depending.

13/8 with pp

Boom__Boom

seanhynes wrote: »

will Harte leave if they lose to Tipperary? Hes there so long surely they need to freshen things up

His term is up at the end of this season.

I'd say the odds of him getting another term are very remote.

I'd say the Tyrone U21 management team are strong odds to take over.

Boom__Boom

Was looking at the teams left/teams out and where they finished up in the league this year. Every Division 1 team is still in the hunt, while no Division 4 team is left. 3 from Division 2 and 3 from Division 3 left.

Looking at who is left from Division 2 and Division 3 it's clear that for the middling teams who they get drawn against is a huge factor. Get drawn against a Division 4 side and you're smiling, get drawn against a Division 1 side and it's adios.

Cork Yes
Dublin Yes
Monaghan Yes
Donegal Yes
Mayo Yes
Kerry Yes
Tyrone Yes
Derry Yes
Down No
RoscommonNo
Meath No
Galway Yes
Cavan No
Laois No
Westmeath Yes
Kildare Yes
Fermanagh Yes
Armagh No
Tipperary Yes
Sligo Yes
Clare No
Limerick No
Louth No
Wexford No
Longford No
Offaly No
Antrim No
Leitrim No
Carlow No
Waterford No
Wicklow No
London No
New York No

The record of Division 4 teams (and New York) continues to be woeful.

This year Division 4 teams (plus New York) played 20 games in the championship and recorded 17 losses.

However 2 out of the 3 wins were where one Division 4 team beat another Division 4 team.

The sole bright spark was Antrim's win over Division 2's Laois. The fact that Laois narrowly avoided relegation and that their manager is already gone, says a world about how bad a result this was considered in Laois.

The average losing margin in these 18 games was just under 11 points (10.89)

CurryFlavoured

MattB11 wrote: »

13/8 with pp

Might take them on a handicap as part of an accumulator. I wouldn't be one bit surprised to see them win though, I think Hartes reign is coming to an end.

DoctaDee

I think the Mickey Harte situation will mirror that of Sean Boylan to a large extent - that ultimately it will be Harte himself who decides when to go. Harte much like Boylan is intrinsically linked in the social fibre of Tyrone, (both his personal and sporting life), giving him the chop will be an absolute no no and rightly so, whatever feelings people may have about the man he imo has been one of the most relevant sporting figures in the history of GAA.

Dyr

DoctaDee wrote: »

I think the Mickey Harte situation will mirror that of Sean Boylan to a large extent - that ultimately it will be Harte himself who decides when to go. Harte much like Boylan is intrinsically linked in the social fibre of Tyrone.

Harte has voodoo dolls of everyone in tyrone?


:pac:

Nidgeweasel

A comfortable win for Tyrone in store.

seligehgit

MattB11 wrote: »

13/8 with pp

Great value,quite fancy them to pull off a bit of a shock!

Jayop

willabur wrote: »

Hopefully Tipp do the job - we need a new team at the table. They were the best time in that u21 final but seemed to lack belief to carry it through

I'd dispute they were the best team in the U21 final. There was very little in it and if anything Tyrone edged the play as well as the score.

There will be a new team in the quarters from the Fermanagh/Westmeath game and Sligo will be in there too so there's enough to keep it interesting.

Boom__Boom wrote: »

His term is up at the end of this season.

I'd say the odds of him getting another term are very remote.

I'd say the Tyrone U21 management team are strong odds to take over.

I wouldn't be brave enough to bet against him getting another term. I'd probably prefer it if he did move aside as a Tyrone man but I just can't see anyone being brave enough to go against him.

He's a legend in the county but sport is fickle and it's always a case of "what have you done for me lately?"!

seligehgit

Jayop wrote: »

I'd dispute they were the best team in the U21 final. There was very little in it and if anything Tyrone edged the play as well as the score.

There will be a new team in the quarters from the Fermanagh/Westmeath game and Sligo will be in there too so there's enough to keep it interesting.

I wouldn't be brave enough to bet against him getting another term. I'd probably prefer it if he did move aside as a Tyrone man but I just can't see anyone being brave enough to go against him.

He's a legend in the county but sport is fickle and it's always a case of "what have you done for me lately?"!

Can't see any circumstances where there will be a putsch against Micky Harte,I imagine he will be allowed leave at a time of his choosing.

fyfe79

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

A comfortable win for Tyrone in store.

Not with Tipp having home advantage. Tyrone may still edge it but it will be close. Tipp flattered to deceive against Kerry so they'll be looking to atone for that performance. A win against Tyrone would be a watershed moment for a hurling-dominant county that has made big strides in football recently. Should be a really good game. Hopefully we'll win but the eternal pessimism long associated with our football team means I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrone win.

Boom__Boom

On Harte the fact that 6 players walked away from the county squad this year is a big sign that things are not good in the camp. The dependence on older players doesn't exactly strike the right note for a team who won the U21 and will be looking to bring those lads through to senior.

A manager lives and dies by his results and the results in the last few years have been distinctly underwhelming, in both the league and championship. Throw in the fact that there seems to be no indication that Harte has what it takes to get Tyrone among the serious challengers again.

The fact that he has had troubled relations with the county board and his continuing issue with RTE don't do much to help his case. The fact that the sponsors went from being Hunky Dory to being Donnelly Brothers says a world about how Tyrone GAA has slipped from being a top table contender.

I don't think it will be a putsch/forced out situation but I do think Harte will be quietly told that his time is up. I don't think Tyrone GAA will continue to give him another term with a free pass on the results front.

Jayop

Boom__Boom wrote: »

On Harte the fact that 6 players walked away from the county squad this year is a big sign that things are not good in the camp. The dependence on older players doesn't exactly strike the right note for a team who won the U21 and will be looking to bring those lads through to senior.

A manager lives and dies by his results and the results in the last few years have been distinctly underwhelming, in both the league and championship. Throw in the fact that there seems to be no indication that Harte has what it takes to get Tyrone among the serious challengers again.

The fact that he has had troubled relations with the county board and his continuing issue with RTE don't do much to help his case. The fact that the sponsors went from being Hunky Dory to being Donnelly Brothers says a world about how Tyrone GAA has slipped from being a top table contender.

I don't think it will be a putsch/forced out situation but I do think Harte will be quietly told that his time is up. I don't think Tyrone GAA will continue to give him another term with a free pass on the results front.

I don't think the championship results have been as bad as is made out nor has the slip been as severe. Donegal have had the hex over us in Ulster for the last 5 years and it's really choking any progress as we're having to go in at round 1 or 2 of the qualifiers every year.

We won back to back Ulster championships in 09/10


2011 - beat by Donegal in Ulster and Dublin in Quarter Final
2012 - beat by Donegal in Ulster and Kerry in Qualifiers in Tralee
2013 - beat by Donegal in Ulster and Mayo in Semi Finals
2014 - beat by Monaghan in Ulster and Armagh in Qualifiers
2015 - beat by Donegal in Ulster and still in championship

So in the last 5 years we've only lost to one side we should really have beaten in Armagh. Losing to Donegal, Dublin, Kerry and a decent Monaghan side isn't the big slide into mediocrity it was made out to be.

henke

Jayop wrote:

2011 - beat by Donegal in Ulster and Dublin in Quarter Final 2012 - beat by Donegal in Ulster and Kerry in Qualifiers in Tralee 2013 - beat by Donegal in Ulster and Monaghan in Quarter Final 2014 - beat by Monaghan in Ulster and Armagh in Qualifiers 2015 - beat by Donegal in Ulster and still in championship

Think yous beat Monaghan in that game? Where the famous Cavanagh pull down happened and lost in the semi final to Mayo.

Jayop

henke wrote: »

Think yous beat Monaghan in that game? Where the famous Cavanagh pull down happened and lost in the semi final to Mayo.

Sorry, you're 100% right. I was thinking there was a problem with it when I typed it out.

Same point stands though. No shame losing to Mayo.

Boom__Boom

Jayop wrote: »

I don't think the championship results have been as bad as is made out nor has the slip been as severe. Donegal have had the hex over us in Ulster for the last 5 years and it's really choking any progress as we're having to go in at round 1 or 2 of the qualifiers every year.

We won back to back Ulster championships in 09/10


2011 - beat by Donegal in Ulster and Dublin in Quarter Final
2012 - beat by Donegal in Ulster and Kerry in Qualifiers in Tralee
2013 - beat by Donegal in Ulster and Mayo in Semi Finals
2014 - beat by Monaghan in Ulster and Armagh in Qualifiers
2015 - beat by Donegal in Ulster and still in championship

So in the last 5 years we've only lost to one side we should really have beaten in Armagh. Losing to Donegal, Dublin, Kerry and a decent Monaghan side isn't the big slide into mediocrity it was made out to be.

I'm not suggesting that Tyrone are down among the dregs but there does look to be a fair bit of a gap between Tyrone and the top teams. There's little to no evidence that Harte has shown any sort of ability to close this gap.

The qualifiers results in those 5 years have been mediocre, especially when you look at it in terms of challenging for Sam - there's been little to nothing to suggest that Harte is capable of getting the team capable of seriously challenging for Sam in the future. Tyrone have put away a couple of the also-rans by large margins but the last 3 years in particular, Tyrone have had 4 games won by 2 point margins against middling opposition.

This year Tyrone beat Limerick by 9 and Meath by 2
Last year beat Louth by 17 and Kildare by 2
2013 beat Offaly by 22 points and Roscommon by 2 and Kildare by 2
2012 beat Roscommon by 11
2011 beat Longford by 5, Armagh by 6 and Roscommon by 11

Overall there is very little to point at when you look at the results, that you can use to say that Harte is the right man for the job. Throw in the fact that Tyrone will be down in what looks like it will be a tricky enough Division 2 next year [if you want to develop lads who have just won an U21 All-Ireland, you want them to be playing in Division 1 as opposed to in division 2] It was Harte's opinion a few years back that it was virtually impossible[i'm not 100% on the wording] to win Sam if a team wasn't playing in Division 1.

If it were only the results it would be one thing, but when the relationship with the county board is poor and the media is poor and you have lots of lads opting out, it's very hard to see him staying on. When push comes to shove do the GAA folk of Tyrone see Harte turning things around if he is given another 2/3 years or are Tyrone's chances of competing for Sam likely to be improved if there is someone new brought in. At what point do Tyrone GAA step in and say thanks for all you did but those past victories don't mean you have the manager job in perpituity.

Jayop

Look, I'm off the opinion that things need to change in Tyrone and the U21 management team should be given the chance, but I'm just making the point that it's not all doom and gloom. It feels like we've been in transition for 5 years now and that's clearly too long but the fact is, we're not a Dublin, Kerry, or Mayo that can expect to win a provincial every year and get to the AI final every two years. We've only been in 4 AI finals in our history and only one of them pre-dates Harte's time in charge. People have high expectations of Tyrone both inside and outside the county and that's all down to what Harte has done in the past. He's a bit of a victim of his own success.

Even that list of winning results that you've shown up there doesn't make for bad reading for me. We hammered a lot of teams and the sides we only beat by 2 are what I'd call tier 2 teams who generally set up very defensive against us. An All Ireland semi final less than two years ago tells me we're not a millions miles away, especially one we were well in up till Harte went off in the second half after one of the hardest shoulders I can remember. We lost that game by 6 points in the end but we were leading well into the second half iirc.


As for the 6 lads who walked away, TBF they were fringe players but you'd still like to see them busting for a place rather than quitting.

This next month will tell a lot. If we can get past Tipp (difficult) then we'll probably face Sligo or Monaghan in the 4th round. I'd give us a chance against Monaghan and make us strong favourites against Sligo. The next match will be key to deciding if Harte stays. Beat Mayo or Donegal in the quarters and he gets another year. Lose and he's probably gone.

seanhynes

He's outstayed his last in my opinion he should have stepped down last season or maybe walked away 10 years on from 03 after the Mayo loss in the semis 2years ago,whats wrong with him and RTE what's happened there? I wasn't aware of any trouble

Jayop

seanhynes wrote: »

He's outstayed his last in my opinion he should have stepped down last season or maybe walked away 10 years on from 03 after the Mayo loss in the semis 2years ago,whats wrong with him and RTE what's happened there? I wasn't aware of any trouble

The issues with RTE are all stemming from a sketch on the John Murray show shortly after his daughter was murdered lampooning Harte as a moron going to see the Dali Lama singing pretty little girl from Omagh. It was pretty shocking insensitivity from them.

he also took issue with someone in RTE sport being passed up for a job iirc.

MattB11

That's disgusting from RTE, On Harte I think he will go when he himself decides its time 3 AI wins in 5 yrs will allow that , although IMO a change in management team may be exactly what they need.

Stoner

I've great respect for Tyrones style of football. Indeed I credit trying to beat it as a main driver for my teams change of style. The Donegal lads might not admit it but going past Tyrone or bringing that style on again was a defining achievement for them too.

Thing is for Tyrone they are kind of a yard stick now, they have been the team to out muscle now since 2010. Kerry aside, Mayo, Dublin and Donegal all put a special effort in to physically dominate Tyrone, not just to win. Indeed having done so puts you at the table of being one of the top teams, all the above teams have done that and throw Monaghan in there too, that was huge for them to beat Tyrone, doing so seemed to defined their season that year, it looked like an all Ireland win at the time. I saw Dublin beating Tyrone as more significant than beating Kerry in 2011.

In many ways Tyrone are a victim of their own success. They are never taken for granted and there are a number of squads that seem to have an axe to grind with Tyrone, we still identify them with the old squad even thought it's more or less a different team now.

When you think of it the top four/six teams all still consider Tyrone a scalp. When you look at things you have the top teams followed by Tyrone followed by the next layer IMO.

IMO, Outside of Cork, Dublin, Kerry, Donegal, Mayo , Monaghan if a team beats Tyrone it's a shock. If Tyrone were to beat one of those six teams they'd possibly take their place at the table.

I don't think they will build a new team with the current management team.
They may have the basis to do it, and there is a good foundation. If MH left he's still very highly regarded and the under 21 are coming through, the development infrastructure is working.

That's my twisted take on it anyway.

K-9

He has stabilised them as a top 8 team that are regular QF/Semi Finalists. Not bad but given their track record and under age success he needs to progress.

It's damning that Donegal and arguably Monaghan (despite the foot trip) are ahead of them, and points too Harte not adapting that well to the changes in the game over the last few years.

K-9

Stoner, no Donegal person, well maybe a very odd one, has a problem admitting how significant beating Tyrone and out Tyroning them was. We take what seems to be our annual Championship match against them very seriously.

bucketybuck

I think Harte should go, purely because I don't think its a good thing for any manager to stay for too long. But it does seem like people are overestimating the players Tyrone currently have and so underestimating the job Harte is doing.

Tyrone are quite similar to Armagh in that they are still seen as one of the powerhouse teams, but its a perception based on previous successful teams and not on the players they currently have.

The point being, if people think that Harte should go because he doesn't have Tyrone competing, well they really should be careful what they wish for. Is any other manager going to get that squad to an All-Ireland title? I very much doubt it. Tyrone could easily find themselves in a long term slump like Armagh, or be like Kildare who got rid of McGeeney and now find that actually he wasn't doing too bad with the raw material he had available.

I do think Harte should go, a fresh approach is always needed. But if he does go I still wouldn't expect to see Tyrone lifting Sam any time soon.

JB81

Jayop wrote: »

Look, I'm off the opinion that things need to change in Tyrone and the U21 management team should be given the chance, but I'm just making the point that it's not all doom and gloom. It feels like we've been in transition for 5 years now and that's clearly too long but the fact is, we're not a Dublin, Kerry, or Mayo that can expect to win a provincial every year and get to the AI final every two years. We've only been in 4 AI finals in our history and only one of them pre-dates Harte's time in charge. People have high expectations of Tyrone both inside and outside the county and that's all down to what Harte has done in the past. He's a bit of a victim of his own success.

Even that list of winning results that you've shown up there doesn't make for bad reading for me. We hammered a lot of teams and the sides we only beat by 2 are what I'd call tier 2 teams who generally set up very defensive against us. An All Ireland semi final less than two years ago tells me we're not a millions miles away, especially one we were well in up till Harte went off in the second half after one of the hardest shoulders I can remember. We lost that game by 6 points in the end but we were leading well into the second half iirc.


As for the 6 lads who walked away, TBF they were fringe players but you'd still like to see them busting for a place rather than quitting.

This next month will tell a lot. If we can get past Tipp (difficult) then we'll probably face Sligo or Monaghan in the 4th round. I'd give us a chance against Monaghan and make us strong favourites against Sligo. The next match will be key to deciding if Harte stays. Beat Mayo or Donegal in the quarters and he gets another year. Lose and he's probably gone.

Did you forget 1986 or 1995??