getting my dog neutered

rottie 11

He will be 1 year on may the 17th. I will be getting him neutered then , but im worried that his personality will change? Like hes a bit crazy so I wouldnt mind him calming down a small bit but could he completely change?

deandean

Why are you gonna get him neutered? Leave him alone, the poor lad!

cocker5

rottie 11 wrote: »

He will be 1 year on may the 17th. I will be getting him neutered then , but im worried that his personality will change? Like hes a bit crazy so I wouldnt mind him calming down a small bit but could he completely change?

I had my male dog neutered at 8 months and no serious changes at all... like your guy he was mental and it helped relax him a bit over a period of months, but didn't change his personality at all.

ShaShaBear

deandean wrote: »

Why are you gonna get him neutered? Leave him alone, the poor lad!

Because it eliminates a form of cancer I'm sure the OP doesn't want his dog to die from, as well as reducing the chances he will wander after bitches AND remove any responsibility for unwanted puppies?

OP, each dog is different. Our collie boy was neutered at 8 months old, and we saw a drastic (but positive) change in his hyperactivity. He is much calmer, but still has regular loony episodes. He is much more responsive to training and we were able to get a lot of his unwanted behaviour under control after his hormones has normalised after surgery. His energy levels regarding walks and play have not changed at all, and are still very high (like we were hoping). And most of all, when our next door neighbour's bitch goes into heat, he no longer bites and digs at our living room wall so much that his paws and gums bleed

Knine

Personally I would not get him neutered. Any dogs I have had done had a change in behaviour but not for the better. I much prefer the appearance & coat of an entire dog. If he is a giant or large breed there is a higher chance of joint or bone issues. In one of my breeds early neutering has shown to increase their chances of bone cancers. In coated breeds neutering ruins their coat giving them a woolly appearance. I have never had an entire make dying from issues relating to not neutering.

I have entire dogs & bitches living together & they certainly don't chew or dig at anything to get at the girls. They don't mark indoors either.

There are pros & cons to neutering. It is important you know both.

ShaShaBear

Knine wrote: »

Personally I would not get him neutered. Any dogs I have had done had a change in behaviour but not for the better. I much prefer the appearance & coat of an entire dog. If he is a giant or large breed there is a higher chance of joint or bone issues. In one of my breeds early neutering has shown to increase their chances of bone cancers. In coated breeds neutering ruins their coat giving them a woolly appearance. I have never had an entire make dying from issues relating to not neutering.

I have entire dogs & bitches living together & they certainly don't chew or dig at anything to get at the girls. They don't mark indoors either.

There are pros & cons to neutering. It is important you know both.

Opie's coat is just as silky as it was before he was neutered - it certainly has not become woolly. Shadow's coat condition actually improved after neutering.

Knine

You are very lucky so. Often people will say the coat is still the same but when it is compared to an entire dog, it is very different. For example wire coats are harder to strip, some being imposdible & dogs who are normally trimmed have to be shaved.

VonVix

Neutering didn't change my boys' character or coat, but like ShaShaBear said, I did notice my boys became more responsive to training and their recall improved drastically. They seemed to become a bit more aware of me and what I was asking of them, if you will.

Pretzill

Neutering didn't change my dog at all - he has a terrific temperment but as hyper for running at 90 miles an hour as any fit young border collie! He was neutered at 6 months and it was a neat operation which had him up and himself by late evening and didn't have to wear the 'cone of shame.'

He was a rescue so it was part of the rescuing process to have him neutered although I would've anyway, I live in the country and a dog looking for a female in heat would probably jump any of the fences we have in place to secure the garden - never mind the chances of reproducing with another female and unwanted puppies - I would hate to think he would be roaming loose in sheep country! As it is, he doesn't leave the property without me and has no inclination to test our gates!!

DBB

Whilst I don't agree that neutering changes the temperament, I would not neuter a male Rottie until he's at least 18 months old.
Several references have been made already to large breeds being more susceptible to bone cancer if they're male and castrated prior to one year of age. The most susceptible breed, op, is the Rottweiler.
Male Rottweilers neutered prior to one year have a one in four chance of developing bone cancer. That is wayyy too high a risk in my books, and were he my dog, I would be giving him a wide margin of error and leaving him at least another 6 months before doing it.
As for it ruining the coat, it won't really affect short-coated shedding breeds like Rotties, and it doesn't seem to affect collies, but it does affect spaniels and setters. Not sure why, as they have reasonable similar coats!

Springwell

My neutered Springer has a much better coat than my unneutered pair. It's down to the dog, not the op.

Knine

Springwell wrote: »

My neutered Springer has a much better coat than my unneutered pair. It's down to the dog, not the op.

Yes for some dogs. Many others are not so lucky. My spayed Border bitch has lost all her undercoat & now has a fluffy coat which cannot be stripped. As I regularly hand strip lots of different dogs I see a huge difference in coats. It is because they are neutered/spayed. The average pet owner might not mind though but I do. My entire dogs are just as well behaved as our neutered dogs but a fair bit more responsive particularly with the males.

I'm not against spaying/neutering especially with rescues but I do reckon people should know about the drawbacks.

km991148

Neutering is one of those issues - lots of opinion, lots of anecdotal evidence and varying degrees of quality of scientific reporting.

It seems there is such a big push for neutering to control stray populations (which isn't a bad thing!) but I think there is an eagerness to neuter too early (understandable when rescues are involved).

Personally we waited until our guy was beyond the major growth stages - i.e. well after adolescence (or well into it) at about 14-16 months (for a small dog).

For a larger dog I would be tempted to wait until even older - this way the dogs growing is complete - joints well formed etc before messing with the hormones. The downside is he already learned how to be intimate with pillows/cushions etc!!

ShaShaBear

km991148 wrote: »

For a larger dog I would be tempted to wait until even older - this way the dogs growing is complete - joints well formed etc before messing with the hormones. The downside is he already learned how to be intimate with pillows/cushions etc!!

Opie has formed a permanent romantic attachment to his blanket. He started wooing it at around 4 months and the neutering hasn't ruined his relationship with it yet :pac:

jgorres

Hi rottie11,

In general, I am in favour for getting dogs (male and female) neutered, if one does not breed. This saves a lot of stress for the dogs as they are not allowed to fulfil their sexual desires, for me as a handler, as I do not have to take care all the time and for other (female) dogs, as they are the object of desire (and for their handlers as well).

There seems to be a tendency that male dog owners tend to look out for excuses ***NOT*** to neuter their boys. This may be because of castration anxiety they have (in fact, my own mirror neurons generate a strange feeling thinking of castration).

We have 4 dogs (2 males, 2 bitches). The bitches were neutered after their first heat, because I think it is important that the dog's character is fully developed. With extreme large breeds I would wait even longer for that reason as they tend to mature later.

The boys have not been neutered, as they are extremely calm anyway. The older one can be recalled even from a bitch on heat. We decided not to neuter them as most changes in the dogs' characters we have seen were "smoother", "more gentle" dogs.

However, what we did with the boys when the first heat of our girls was due, was a chemical castration using a hormone chip. The one we used was named Suprelorin. It is a chip which was inserted subcutaneously and is available for a 6 or 12 month period.

This might also a good opportunity to "test" how your dog's character will become being neutered "real". But: This is a massive intervention into your dog's hormone balance and - in my opinion - should only be done for good reasons.

Regards,
Jörn

rottie 11

Thanks for the replies I appreciate them all. A lot of mixed opinions but as DBB said about a 1 in 4 chance of bone cancer , thats just too dodgey for me so im going to wait another few months to be on the safe side. Thanks

DBB

jgorres wrote: »

This might also a good opportunity to "test" how your dog's character will become being neutered "real". But: This is a massive intervention into your dog's hormone balance and - in my opinion - should only be done for good reasons.

The available research suggests that chemically castrated dogs show a greater degree of "positive" behaviour changes compared to dogs that were surgically castrated, so whilst using chemical castration to test the waters is not the worst idea, owners might be a little disappointed if they then decide to go the whole hog that the difference in their dog is not as obvious as it was during the chemical castration experiment

rottie 11

DBB wrote: »

The available research suggests that chemically castrated dogs show a greater degree of "positive" behaviour changes compared to dogs that were surgically castrated, so whilst using chemical castration to test the waters is not the worst idea, owners might be a little disappointed if they then decide to go the whole hog that the difference in their dog is not as obvious as it was during the chemical castration experiment

Sorry but I dont really get what u mean :O

DBB

rottie 11 wrote: »

Sorry but I dont really get what u mean :O

Oops, sorry
There was a suggestion that if an owner wants to test the waters and see if castration would have a behavioural effect on their dog, but before they get their dog castrated, they can have him chemically castrated first. Chemical castration is temporary, but obviously surgical castration is permanent.
A common scenario that springs to mind as an example would be where the dog is aggressive to other dogs, and the owner would like to find out if castrating the dog would reduce the aggression. Temporary chemical castration might allow them to see whether permanent castration would work... Because it doesn't always, so it's a bit of a gamble.
However, there's some research that suggests that chemical castration makes a dog less aggressive than surgical castration does.
So, in the above scenario, the owner has the dog chemically castrated, and finds that the aggression reduces. Based on this, the dog is then surgically castrated. But the aggression increases again.
In such a scenario, it's easy to see how the owner would be peed off about it!
I hope that makes it a bit clearer

Rips

rottie 11 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies I appreciate them all. A lot of mixed opinions but as DBB said about a 1 in 4 chance of bone cancer , thats just too dodgey for me so im going to wait another few months to be on the safe side. Thanks

I'm sorry but the statistic that has been presented here over and over again is as good as scaremongering in line with certain members specific views. This is a statistic that has been presented based on very limited specific collections of data. There are several flaws.

I can't be bothered going into detail as I'll likely be shot down in flames by the predominant opinions of this forum, but this is a good read;

http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-health/27555-significant-link-between-early-neutering-osteosarcoma.html

Just one example, and you'll excuse me if I'm mistaken as it was a while ago when I read up on some of this, but in one risk/neutering study, the mean life expectancy for intact animals was lower (by several years) then the mean age at which dogs were commonly effected by the disease being studied. If your dogs lives a longer healthier life as a result of being neutered, then yes, statistics will probably show, that the dogs affected by this commonly predisposed condition were greater in number. That number may be a result of the simple fact that the dog in question did not stray and get run over, or be replaced by an accidental puppy.

They do not take genetic or environmental factors into account at all. Based on the fact that osteosarcoma is so prevalent in Rotties, and in certain countries especially, there most definitely is a genetic element, which means that whether your dog will suffer from the disease or not has little to do with neutering.

The research is not invalid, but much more study is required.

An example;
If I were to carry out a study of connemara ponies in Australia last year, I probably would have found that 1/4 geldings were suffering from hoof disease and the statistics for stallions were much lower.

It would have been completely wrong to draw a conclusion that gelded horses were more likely to develop this condition based on these stats. The causal genes for this condition have since been discovered, and the disparity in statistics based on affected breeding lines and other environmental factors, is massive. Even down to the nature of the type of owner!
(ie; the numbers in Ireland are low compared to other regions, but this may not yet be a reflection on the % of effected animals or a result of a large gene pool, merely that, only the most informed and conscientious owners are testing/submitting data and these owners have expensive stock which have been bred based on health and performance for years. Unlike dogs which are often bred based on aesthetics.)

Dogs are much much more intensively bred then horses.



As many people have said, they are risks and benefits which need to be considered by you and only you OP, do some reading, get some advice from sources you trust and consider how your choices effect you, your dog and your lifestyle.

Based on what you have said so far,
- that you are considering/want to neuter (ie you don't want to breed and you are aware of some of the benefits)
-that you have mitigated some of the risks by allowing him to mature to 1 yr old (something that is certainly no harm in a male dog)
- that you would like if he calmed down a little bit

It is my personal opinion that you should go ahead and get him neutered.

borderlinemeath

You consider a conversation on a forum where they all call themselves Alpha and are predisposed to mutilating their Dobies ears simply for aesthetics "a good read"?

Let me ask you Rips, if you had a large or giant breed pup would you get him neutered at 12 months or would you take any of the scientific evidence into account and wait until he was 18 or even 24 months old to do it? You're great at dismissing others on this subject who give out advice but if you were in the position yourself at perhaps putting your pups health at risk, would you do it?

DBB

Scaremongering? Not at all. Just presenting some evidence on peer-reviewed papers, rather than using discussion forums as a basis for seeking the same information.
The fact is that all vets (that I know at least) will avoid castrating Rottweilers and crosses of them until they're at least a year old, which they do based on the available peer-reviewed evidence. I'm sure that if the available evidence is eventually disproven vets will move on from current best practice, but until then, of course they should apply what the available evidence tells us.
In the OP's case, even if the available evidence is eventually discredited by further research (rather than internet randomers), what harm to leave his dog another few months? Bearing in mind that there's also recent research to indicate that castrating dogs is not necessarily a reliable way to "calm them down". Pragmatism is not the same thing as scaremongering.

spur

My older collie was neutered at 18 months or so. It didn't change his personality at all. He's as mad and daft and full of life and fun as he was beforehand. He has a beautiful coat - it's often commented on.
My other collie was neutered when I got him. He's absolutely bonkers and I can't imagine neutering calmed him one bit! He has a completely different coat to the other fella - it's in fine condition but it's a bit wirier and it just doesn't shine - I don't think it's anything to do with neutering though.
I've never regretted neutering either of mine - well every so often as I see them getting older I think how I'd love a pup from either or both of them - but what I really mean is I'd love to have themselves as a pup again and have all the years with them again!!

jgorres

Hi borderlinemeath,

borderlinemeath wrote: »

You consider a conversation on a forum where they all call themselves Alpha and are predisposed to mutilating their Dobies ears simply for aesthetics "a good read"?

Personally, I am convinced the approach that the dog handler should be the "alpha dog" does not work. The reason is simple and obvious: humans are primates and dogs are canines and both have different social models.

But, I found a much better education model, which can be summarised: "I am god".

God can open the front door for the dog. God can drive the car to places where God and the dog are going to have a lot of fun. God can open the food can for the dog. God can fill up the drinking bowl for the dog with fresh water. ...

Jörn.

borderlinemeath

jgorres wrote: »

Hi borderlinemeath,



Personally, I am convinced the approach that the dog handler should be the "alpha dog" does not work. The reason is simple and obvious: humans are primates and dogs are canines and both have different social models.

But, I found a much better education model, which can be summarised: "I am god".

God can open the front door for the dog. God can drive the car to places where God and the dog are going to have a lot of fun. God can open the food can for the dog. God can fill up the drinking bowl for the dog with fresh water. ...

Jörn.

Slightly off topic, but I agree. People that consider themselves "Alpha" are only setting their dogs up to fail by refusing to acknowledge if their is an actual behavioural problem with their dog. By labelling themselves as "Alpha" or "pack leader" and putting unwanted behaviour down to their dog wanting to be "dominant" and "alpha dog", they are refusing to look at what the actual problem is - be it something as simple as lead pulling, or as bad as resource guarding aggression. The solutions they come to for modifying that unwanted behaviour are usually based on the dominance theory rather than positive reward based training and while they may work short term, will repress the unwanted behaviour rather than modifying it. And it can come back to bite them. Literally.

tk123

12 months would be too young for me OP. Neutering can affect growth plates if done too early and I'm possibly the only on person here who has real life experience (as opposed to studies) of the aftermath(!).

jgorres

Hi,

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but I agree. People that consider themselves "Alpha" are only setting their dogs up to fail by refusing to acknowledge if their is an actual behavioural problem with their dog.

Even more offtopic: So-called "behavioural problems of dogs" are classified as such, because we (the primates) define them to be behavioural problems. In fact, those problems simply do not fit into our social set up, where we live together in densely packed communities with many more primates and canines together and not in caves any more.

From a dog's point of view their behaviour is absolutely fine, e.g. biting somebody from a different pack. However, our law system does not share the dog's' point of view as in modern (?) civilisations this behaviour is seen as inappropriate.

The behavioural problem was already there, before the dog misbehaved. It started in the moment the alpha-primate decided to go for a dog and use it as his penis extension.

Jörn.

jgorres

Hi,

tk123 wrote: »

12 months would be too young for me OP. Neutering can affect growth plates if done too early and I'm possibly the only on person here who has real life experience (as opposed to studies) of the aftermath(!).

I can only support this point of view. The dog should have fully developed physically and large breeds tend to take longer than smaller breeds.

I count Rottweilers to be a large breed ;-)

Jörn.

ShaShaBear

jgorres wrote: »

Hi,



Even more offtopic: So-called "behavioural problems of dogs" are classified as such, because we (the primates) define them to be behavioural problems. In fact, those problems simply do not fit into our social set up, where we live together in densely packed communities with many more primates and canines together and not in caves any more.

From a dog's point of view their behaviour is absolutely fine, e.g. biting somebody from a different pack. However, our law system does not share the dog's' point of view as in modern (?) civilisations this behaviour is seen as inappropriate.

The behavioural problem was already there, before the dog misbehaved. It started in the moment the alpha-primate decided to go for a dog and use it as his penis extension.

Jörn.

But we are talking about domesticated dogs here. They ARE our social setup. Unless others on this forum be having pet wolves that I don't know about :pac:

rottie 11

DBB wrote: »

Oops, sorry
There was a suggestion that if an owner wants to test the waters and see if castration would have a behavioural effect on their dog, but before they get their dog castrated, they can have him chemically castrated first. Chemical castration is temporary, but obviously surgical castration is permanent.
A common scenario that springs to mind as an example would be where the dog is aggressive to other dogs, and the owner would like to find out if castrating the dog would reduce the aggression. Temporary chemical castration might allow them to see whether permanent castration would work... Because it doesn't always, so it's a bit of a gamble.
However, there's some research that suggests that chemical castration makes a dog less aggressive than surgical castration does.
So, in the above scenario, the owner has the dog chemically castrated, and finds that the aggression reduces. Based on this, the dog is then surgically castrated. But the aggression increases again.
In such a scenario, it's easy to see how the owner would be peed off about it!
I hope that makes it a bit clearer

Ya I get you now thanks. Another reason im in a bit of a hurry to get him neutered is that certain dogs we meet out on walks he gets aggressive towards, most dogs hel just get excited and try to pull to them but I presume he gets aggressive towards males ?? Hes not vicious at all , he gets on great with any human he meets and most dogs. But im just afraid that he could bite one of those dogs

jgorres

Hi,

ShaShaBear wrote: »

But we are talking about domesticated dogs here. They ARE our social setup. Unless others on this forum be having pet wolves that I don't know about :pac:

Absolutely, but there is a little bit of a wolve even in a domesticated dog. It is simply in their genes and certain behaviours which were useful when they were not yet domesticated do not fit into our primate social set up today.

As it is not really the free will of the dogs to be in that set up (in the end we, the primates select/buy them) it is our (primate) responsibility to shape or transform the unwanted behaviour in such a way that the dog fits into our social set up.

Dogs cannot read law books.

And, finally, "social setup" is relative. I once I met a dog handler who was training desaster search and rescue dogs for a NGO in Pakistan. There it is not considered to be appropriate to have your dog with you in your car. He required a special permit to have his dog with him in his car.

Jörn.

kylith

I don't see why 'coat may get a bit wooly' is such a big point for people. Surely we have our pets for companionship, not a fashion show? And their coat changing a wee bit is a small price to pay for the health and mental benefits of neutering.

The only reason to delay, imo, is waiting until their full grown so that their growth plates are fused properly.

Knine

kylith wrote: »

I don't see why 'coat may get a bit wooly' is such a big point for people. Surely we have our pets for companionship, not a fashion show? And their coat changing a wee bit is a small price to pay for the health and mental benefits of neutering.

The only reason to delay, imo, is waiting until their full grown so that their growth plates are fused properly.

Its not about a fashion show for me but I just don't like the wooly look. Plus when out in all weathers that coat is not waterproof. The water runs off my entire dogs coats while the spayed bitch is freezing & wet. There is nothing wrong with the health of my entire dogs. I have noticed that they also have much better muscle tone too. The testosterone in the males would help with this.

peasant

rottie 11 wrote: »

... he gets on great with any human he meets and most dogs...

Just on that note ...

Dogs don't necessarily have to get on with every other dog they meet...there are unfriendly, grumpy, misbehaved and downright "asshole" dogs out there as well.
It's up to you to provide cover for your dog from those types, don't leave it to him to defend himself, that will lead to (and re-enforce) aggressive behaviour.

Having your dog neutered might make "asshole" dogs even more so as some of them interact very badly with castrates. (trying to ride them and all that)


IMO the only behaviour that can successfully be influenced by castration is wandering/escaping ...everything else is down to training really.

Rips

borderlinemeath wrote: »

You consider a conversation on a forum where they all call themselves Alpha and are predisposed to mutilating their Dobies ears simply for aesthetics "a good read"?

Let me ask you Rips, if you had a large or giant breed pup would you get him neutered at 12 months or would you take any of the scientific evidence into account and wait until he was 18 or even 24 months old to do it? You're great at dismissing others on this subject who give out advice but if you were in the position yourself at perhaps putting your pups health at risk, would you do it?

Just the points made that are relevant to the discussion. I don't frequent that forum or profess to know anything about its members.

Is an opinion only valid if it comes from an upstanding forum member?

Giant and large are two very different things.

In general, if I had a large male Rottweiler, I would neuter at 12months and certainly before 18months, unless there were other considerations. And there are so many considerations which are down to the specific owner and pet that my personal view is really irrelevant. We are only given a small insight on the web, and really, it would be much better if the OP sought advice from a professional who has all the facts, history and the dog infront of them, vet, trainer, other.

Why can we not present unbiased information, not coloured by our own preferences. If the OP started a thread about how
- he/she wanted to eventually neuter the dog, but wasn't having any specific problems or cause to at the moment, and asked, how long it would be advised to put it off until, my answer would likely be different.

My main issue, which I agree, I have voiced over and over on threads, is a tendency towards a blanket approach on delaying neutering, which I passionately do not believe is in the best interests of the most.

shaymus27

Neutering did not affect my dog's temperament one bit. He was still the most nuts dog anywhere I went.

If your dog is becoming aggressive to some dogs neutering should help to some extent in that respect but it won't completely.

Rotties by law are supposed to be muzzled so that should also help.

Leave neutering until later when a dog is more mature.

All the experts seem to agree that neutering is the correct thing to do. I'm not so sure as I think it affects hormones and physical health and I would be reluctant to do it again to a pet despite all the advice that it should be done. Wandering and aggression which bring their own problems can be aided by neutering so the benefits may well outweigh the risks which the experts seem to think is low anyway.

borderlinemeath

shaymus27 wrote: »

Neutering did not affect my dog's temperament one bit. He was still the most nuts dog anywhere I went.

If your dog is becoming aggressive to some dogs neutering should help to some extent in that respect but it won't completely.

Rotties by law are supposed to be muzzled so that should also help.

Leave neutering until later when a dog is more mature.

All the experts seem to agree that neutering is the correct thing to do. I'm not so sure as I think it affects hormones and physical health and I would be reluctant to do it again to a pet despite all the advice that it should be done. Wandering and aggression which bring their own problems can be aided by neutering so the benefits may well outweigh the risks which the experts seem to think is low anyway.

The only aggression that neutering may help with is inter male aggression where both males are intact. If your dog is aggressive to all dogs it won't help one bit. and testosterone aggression is almost eliminated if your dog is socialised early with other intact males. The problem is with a lot of dogs getting neutered early is the chances for that socialisation becomes less and less.

I have a "1 intact male only" rule when I'm minding dogs and it's rare that I have to turn somebody down because of another dog.

Sobko

Not sure why people are saying all experts agree neutering is best when obviously that is not the case. OP as others have pointed out large breeds are better left in fact until they have reached full maturity. Thankfully my vet is of a similar mind and agrees.