We need to get rid of every club in Dublin, outside of Shamrock Rovers and Bohemians

Omackeral

Resident loudmouth and all round failed manager Roddy Collins has made some noise again in this interview.

I WAS delighted to see a capacity crowd turn up for the Cork City-Dundalk game last Friday night.
All I could hear afterwards was people going on about what an advertisement for League of Ireland football that game was — and there is no doubt that it showed the game here in a
positive light.
But it should be the norm. It’s what we have to strive for week in, week out.
And to make that happen, we would have to upset some people. Sacrifices would have to be made.
Painful and unpopular decisions, requiring great strength to be shown by those in power, would be called for. It would not be easy, but achieving significant progress never is.
First of all, we need to get rid of every club in Dublin outside of Bohemians and Shamrock Rovers.
They are the two strongest teams in the capital and they would only get stronger if they were left on their own to fight for the hearts and minds of Dubliners.

What do you think of his proposal? Surely it's harsh on St Pats, current FAI Cup champions and a decent footballing team. They've a smaller fan base but they've some loyal followers and bring something to the league. They've never been relegated. The people who support them are hardly gonna hitch their wagon to Rovers. If he said it about newcomers Cabinteely, maybe he'd have more of a point or, at a stretch, UCD. Whats your thoughts?

Shanotheslayer

Clicked into thread. No idea why. What a stupid idea.

LeBash

Yeah, every other team that makes their way up the league into the top flight from Dublin should just be disassembled forever more. Makes sense. That way we can have 2 teams from Leitrim at some stage so every resident there can have a squad number on match day

What a load of rocking horse sh1te.

We have to accept that the league will always have massive failings. Population is too small for soccer to compete with Rugby and GAA when the cream is taken to the UK.

inforfun

Dont think that would be a good way to get Irish people out of their EPL replica's and into LOI stadiums.

Also i dont think it is a good idea to sell too many tickets for Cork - Dundalk and then have to turn away season ticket holders.

In other words, i think there are bigger issues than to see if Dublin can do with a few clubs less.

anncoates

We'd all like to see the league grow as much as possible and should work towards that, but the notion that the only qualification of success is to get it to a Leinster Rugby/Premier League level so barstoolers "notice" it is bollocks.

LuckyLloyd

UCD aren't a problem because we have no fans! :pac: `

FWIW, the author is right in so far as centralised management of club location based on interest level and catchment areas would be beneficial in a cold theoretical sense. You could extend franchising to the way clubs run themselves in terms of budget / youth integration / marketing and it could really have a positive impact.

But football is about fanbases and emotion and attachment, etc so this will never fly.

Pawwed Rig

I can see merit in the plan but do we really think a Shelbourne fan will just start supporting Bohemians because Shelbourne are no more?

It's not a bad theory, that there should be 2 big clubs in Dublin (I would think 3 and retain St. Pats). But it's very hard to simply draw a line through all the history and tradition of other clubs. They kinda managed it in rugby mind you, where all the emphasis is now on provinces when no one gave a damn about them in the past. If it improved the league and it enabled a concentration of resources to enable teams progress in Europe (the reason for the rugby changes) it's not the worst idea.

Lovely Bloke

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I can see merit in the plan but do we really think a Shelbourne fan will just start supporting Bohemians because Shelbourne are no more?

Nope.

When we were close to the precipice back in the 00s I contemplated what I was going to do with my Friday nights if Shels went.

No single other Dublin club can be in the running, I just hate them all so much, UCD included, bleedin student fans.

The Louth/Meath clubs are just too different. I couldn't sit in stands every week with people who have that accent. It would annoy me too much and I'd do a murder.

Anything else is just too far away.

I think Bray might be a good fit for me now. Wife is from there, and we may even eventually end up living there, so my son, if he's not a Shels fan by then, will be "encouraged" to head to the Carlisle. He'll be coming to his first Shels match this summer.

I assume that was Roderick making those statements? Irrelevant little man.

Pawwed Rig

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

I assume that was Roderick making those statements? Irrelevant little man.

Didn't say who it was in the OP but I assume if it was Roddy Collins it should be ignored similar to everything else he says

Lovely Bloke

Also, Franchise, soul-less clubs won't work in this league.

Two have tried and failed.

iDave

LOI fans are thin enough on the ground as it is. Cant see how disenfranchising many of the current ones would make sense.

CSF

Roddy Collins in saying stupid but controversial thing shocker.

If Irish clubs were in a healthy state he would never be able to get a job.

Lovely Bloke

Does he have a job now?

LuckyLloyd

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Also, Franchise, soul-less clubs won't work in this league.

Two have tried and failed.

I know that they failed, certainly they can't succeed when they are competing against established clubs.

The question would be if you tore everything down and rolled out a new FAI backed / centrally controlled league with 10 chosen franchise clubs to start would people go to the games?

anncoates

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The question would be if you tore everything down and rolled out a new FAI backed / centrally controlled league with 10 chosen franchise clubs to start would people go to the games?

Would need a fairly huge whack of money to ensure immediate results in Europe, big facilities etc. Most Irish football supporters have shown that they more or less want a fully fledged product on the level of the premier league before they adopt it in numbers.

As well, for all the brouhaha in England abut the premier league, football has a bedrock of old school support that will always see it through hard times and ensure that the top echelons are based on a fairly vibrant league structure. What you're proposing would wipe out the only semblance of that loyalty here and would ensure that the new league would have to deliver more or less all the time to survive.

I honestly couldn't care if the league never got huge although it would be nice. I'd be delighted with quite achievable aims: better grounds, relative financial stability; joined up youth structures for player development from junior to premier league level and so on.

monkey9

Do people deliberately buy a newspaper just to read some nonsense spouted by Roddy Collins? Don't know how he gets those gigs.

As has been said before, if he wants those clubs to die and therefore get rid of fanbases who currently go to LOI games in order to bring bring in people who currently don't go to LOI games, he should become manager. They'll soon die off as per his track record.

Iang87

Roddys points aren't designed for the current supporters of the league. I'd bet if you asked him he's talking about a generation down the line. As mentioned above similar to rugby and how the AIL died despite having better crowds than LoI at its peak.

If you set up a few new clubs and backed it financially maybe by bringing in a decent name similar to MLS with their franchise player then i'm sure crowds would turn up. For how long would be the million pound question though.

Naturally the league needs a revamp and i think excluding roddy would be a good place to start

Lovely Bloke

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I know that they failed, certainly they can't succeed when they are competing against established clubs.

The question would be if you tore everything down and rolled out a new FAI backed / centrally controlled league with 10 chosen franchise clubs to start would people go to the games?

No they wouldn't, and the issue would then be there'd be absolutely nobody going to games.

Current actual Irish football fans wouldn't, in any great numbers, support a franchise (apart from Cork people obv).

So you'd have no "me da supported them, so I do" types, and you'd have no-one willing to go to empty stadia.

It's a nonsense idea.

BOHtox

SantryRed

If the LoI continues as it is, there will be absolutely no improvements any where. Roddy's comments are completely off the bat, as the population of Dublin can definitely sustain more than 2 teams. However, there is absolutely no local feel to any of these teams. The fact that Shels are moving from Tolka Park in the recent future, the best bet for them would be to move to somewhere like Swords. They would instantly be plugging into a population of people of circa. 70k, where having a 1% of this population turn up to games would result in the same amount of home fans we get at games at the moment. All you have to do is look at Rovers move to Tallaght, and how that has bumped up their average big time to when they were wandering aimlessly around Dublin from ground to ground.

I'd love to see Shels move to Swords and create a proper community aspect, purely because it's the best chance the club has to survive and grow. Continuing to play in a falling down Tolka Park or moving to Dalymount Park will eventually see the death of the club, and I honestly couldn't give a **** if it hurts some of the current fans, because the survival of the club is at stake here. Obviously, gaining funding or whatever for out that way could be difficult, but a 5-10k seater stadium out there would be great.

Omackeral

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Didn't say who it was in the OP but I assume if it was Roddy Collins it should be ignored similar to everything else he says

Sorry it was Roddy, amended that now.

Omackeral

Iang87 wrote: »

If you set up a few new clubs and backed it financially maybe by bringing in a decent name similar to MLS with their franchise player then i'm sure crowds would turn up. For how long would be the million pound question though.

At the moment, we have Liam Miller at Cork City and Keith Fahey at Shamrock Rovers, two gifted players with a decent amount of caps to their names, as well as being Premiership names in England and Scotland. City and Rovers actually do get good crowds when compared to other clubs. Might be a coincidence, might be relevant. Would Damien Duff coming in boost attendances for another club? Perhaps at Bray he would. Interesting enough but I don't know if I'd go full on Designated Player to the extent the MLS have[/QUOTE]

LuckyLloyd

SantryRed wrote: »

If the LoI continues as it is, there will be absolutely no improvements any where.

That's it really. Roddy talking ****e isn't anything new, but the policies of failure have been conclusively proven to fail. Sitting hands in the pockets waiting for those interested in football (as seen on Sky Sports) to see the light is akin to waiting for Godot imo.

dfx-

Omackeral wrote: »

What do you think of his proposal? Surely it's harsh on St Pats, current FAI Cup champions and a decent footballing team. They've a smaller fan base but they've some loyal followers and bring something to the league. They've never been relegated. The people who support them are hardly gonna hitch their wagon to Rovers. If he said it about newcomers Cabinteely, maybe he'd have more of a point or, at a stretch, UCD. Whats your thoughts?

I think his proposal is clouded by his natural ill-thought judgement and red/black allegiances. I don't see that much difference between Bohs and Pats to keep one over the other, for example.

gimmick

inforfun wrote: »

Also i dont think it is a good idea to sell too many tickets for Cork - Dundalk and then have to turn away season ticket holders.

To be fair - there was not too many tickets issued. The local Garda Sergeant just had a shít attack that that many football hooligans who were all drunk were in the same place at one time.

Same man stopped one of the locals pubs running promotions pre game.

The man truly believes all "soccer" fans are scuts out to cause trouble.

osarusan

Collins is a clown and his troll-clock struck zero, so he needed oxygen.

Omackeral

dfx- wrote: »

I think his proposal is clouded by his natural ill-thought judgement and red/black allegiances. I don't see that much difference between Bohs and Pats to keep one over the other, for example.

He probably sees it in terms of a Northside vs Southside rivalry. Plus the Bohs vs Rovers derby would be a factor too.

Just looking at SantryRed's proposal to move Shels to Swords, I don't know. Sporting Fingal were to be a Swords team and never really garnered massive numbers, they played good ball and even won the FAI Cup and went to Europe. Had they gotten a stadium and kept successful, maybe they could have got some better numbers. But stablized success would have been paramount. The current Shels would want to hit the ground running if they wanted to sustain any good crowd. Would that alienate their current fans? Would Swords be a Bohs area at present, or maybe Bohs/Shels?

Lovely Bloke

I know one Shels fan from Swords, and no Bohs fans from there.

I don't think any areas outside of Inchicore and Phibsboro (and possibly Tallaght) can be considered "heartlands" of any Dublin club.

Gavin "shels"

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Does he have a job now?

He was with O'Devaney in the LSL for a couple of games afaik.

Guy:Incognito

dfx- wrote: »

I think his proposal is clouded by his natural ill-thought judgement and red/black allegiances. I don't see that much difference between Bohs and Pats to keep one over the other, for example.

Is he thinking along the lines of 1 northside (Bohs) and 1 southside (Rovers). Would make sense from the franchise angle. Would make the county and the support easier to seperate and identify with an area.

North Dublin Phibsboronians and South Dublin Affluentians

SantryRed

Omackeral wrote: »

He probably sees it in terms of a Northside vs Southside rivalry. Plus the Bohs vs Rovers derby would be a factor too.

Just looking at SantryRed's proposal to move Shels to Swords, I don't know. Sporting Fingal were to be a Swords team and never really garnered massive numbers, they played good ball and even won the FAI Cup and went to Europe. Had they gotten a stadium and kept successful, maybe they could have got some better numbers. But stablized success would have been paramount. The current Shels would want to hit the ground running if they wanted to sustain any good crowd. Would that alienate their current fans? Would Swords be a Bohs area at present, or maybe Bohs/Shels?

It's all to do with marketing. Whilst Fingal's support fell apart (mainly due to being in a poor catchment area and the franchise effect), the marketing they did do and promotional nights they had, did see some big crowds (over 1.5-2k if I remember right), with the majority coming from north of Santry. I don't think our fanbase can get much lower atm, and I doubt there are many actually from the southside that do come over. I know there are some, but possibly not a majority I'd say.

Unfortunately, we've come to a point in this league where clubs have to move from their spiritual homes if they're gonna increase in popularity or size. The lack of marketing by the clubs is unbelievable and there is absolutely no innovation whatsoever by the clubs (I'm talking from my experience with Shels). Why they can't approach DCU with a project for promoting their matches with their marketing students for example, is beyond belief. It's a simple phone call to see if there is any interest, and I'd honestly wager there would be. Every student is looking for ways to improve their CV and this would be one.

There is viability in this country to run a league with average attendances across the board of at least 4k, but unfortunately a lot of innovation is needed, and the people at the helms of a lot of clubs are not going to do this.

SantryRed

Gavin shels wrote: »

He was with O'Devaney in the LSL for a couple of games afaik.

Couple of training sessions and left before his first match in charge!

Guy:Incognito

Omackeral wrote: »

Just looking at SantryRed's proposal to move Shels to Swords, I don't know. Sporting Fingal were to be a Swords team and never really garnered massive numbers, they played good ball and even won the FAI Cup and went to Europe. Had they gotten a stadium and kept successful, maybe they could have got some better numbers. But stablized success would have been paramount. The current Shels would want to hit the ground running if they wanted to sustain any good crowd. Would that alienate their current fans? Would Swords be a Bohs area at present, or maybe Bohs/Shels?

There are fairly big differences though between an already established club moving to an area near enough and a brand new club having to start from scratch with no fan base at all.

In the case of a franchise system where all established clubs are effectively disbanded, then having 2 clubs put in place, you should at the very least get a certain amount of fans straight away. Afterall, the choice for existing fans is to give up watching LOI football altogether or go see the one club on their side of the city.

Omackeral

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

In the case of a franchise system where all established clubs are effectively disbanded, then having 2 clubs put in place, you should at the very least get a certain amount of fans straight away. Afterall, the choice for existing fans is to give up watching LOI football altogether or go see the one club on their side of the city.

That's the danger with any proposal of this nature. Only way I could shack up with another club in any capacity would be if mine went bust or whatever and I ended up living elsewhere that had a local team that wasn't a direct rival of my old club. So a Galway Utd or something maybe. But I know for a fact I wouldn't feel 1/10 of the passion for them that I do for my own team and would just be filling a void of live football more than anything. I've been to a few Pat's matches (when Bohs were not playing) as I live over that way that last few years and it was enjoyable...but in a totally different way.

Guy:Incognito

Omackeral wrote: »

That's the danger with any proposal of this nature. Only way I could shack up with another club in any capacity would be if mine went bust or whatever and I ended up living elsewhere that had a local team that wasn't a direct rival of my old club. So a Galway Utd or something maybe. But I know for a fact I wouldn't feel 1/10 of the passion for them that I do for my own team and would just be filling a void of live football more than anything. I've been to a few Pat's matches (when Bohs were not playing) as I live over that way that last few years and it was enjoyable...but in a totally different way.

It would be "their" club for the next generation of fans though. Nothing is going to fix the LOI tomorrow and have it full of top quaiity players and full stadiums. The unfortunate part is that the current crop of fans have to muddle on , go see a new club because thats whats available etc. Then the current crop of kids and the ones that come after are all behind the Northside/southside club.

Forgetting the franchise side, you've got the current set up and have to figure out how to maximise that.

Lovely Bloke

Why would I support a "club" that, in effect, put my current club out of existence?

I don't want to support Northside FC, or Fingal Torpedo, or The Dublin Knights or whatever makey uppy name they come up with.

I want to support Shels.

Now, I'm a guy who loves to watch live football regularly, I'm a part of a fairly small minority of the population. The idea of franchises would make that minority smaller.

I simply don't believe there is some latent support base out there just waiting for some Franchise team to pop up where two other teams currently exist that they have absolutely zero interest in. If there are people out there waiting for live football to arrive, why are they not attending the live football that is on offer right now, and what the hell will Franchises do differently that we can't have the current clubs do right now?

Who is paying to set up the franchises?

Guy:Incognito

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Why would I support a "club" that, in effect, put my current club out of existence?

I don't want to support Northside FC, or Fingal Torpedo, or The Dublin Knights or whatever makey uppy name they come up with.

I want to support Shels.

Would you just stop watching LOI football?

Lovely Bloke

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Would you just stop watching LOI football?

Well, yeah, seeing as the LOI would no longer exist.

Guy:Incognito

EDIT, double post.

Guy:Incognito

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

I simply don't believe there is some latent support base out there just waiting for some Franchise team to pop up where two other teams currently exist that they have absolutely zero interest in. If there are people out there waiting for live football to arrive, why are they not attending the live football that is on offer right now, and what the hell will Franchises do differently that we can't have the current clubs do right now?

I'm assuming the idea is to have 2 properly sustainable clubs.

What are the combined average attendances of Shels, Bohs, Rovers, Pats , Cabinteely (and maybe Bray seeing as its so close) ? Divide that in 2 and hope to have better teams/facilities due to more money being available (same income, a third of the running costs)

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Well, yeah, seeing as the LOI would no longer exist.

It would though, just not in its current form.

If it completely died on its own. with all clubs folding (stadiums sold and gone etc), would you want it revived, or just forget about having a league?

ArmaniJeanss

Even if wanted to go the franchise route, having just two clubs in Dublin would be fairly ludicrous as Dublin (Greater Dublin Area) has about 39% of the population.
So two clubs in Dublin would mean just 3 clubs in the rest of the country if you go the traditional franchise route of divvying up the market equitably.

anncoates

Assuming the franchise fans would also love the idea of Liverpool and Everton combining to form The Mersey Roar so a team from Liverpool could win a league again?

Guy:Incognito

anncoates wrote: »

Assuming the franchise fans would also love the idea of Liverpool and Everton combining to form The Mersey Roar so a team from Liverpool could win a league again?

Discussing alternatives isnt being a "franchise fan".

If Liverpool and Everton were facing financial ruin, playing to empty grounds in league a thats floundering, you might have a case for comparison. This isnt about winning the league, its about having a sustainable one with sustainable clubs.

Godge

SantryRed wrote: »

If the LoI continues as it is, there will be absolutely no improvements any where. Roddy's comments are completely off the bat, as the population of Dublin can definitely sustain more than 2 teams. However, there is absolutely no local feel to any of these teams. The fact that Shels are moving from Tolka Park in the recent future, the best bet for them would be to move to somewhere like Swords. They would instantly be plugging into a population of people of circa. 70k, where having a 1% of this population turn up to games would result in the same amount of home fans we get at games at the moment. All you have to do is look at Rovers move to Tallaght, and how that has bumped up their average big time to when they were wandering aimlessly around Dublin from ground to ground.

I'd love to see Shels move to Swords and create a proper community aspect, purely because it's the best chance the club has to survive and grow. Continuing to play in a falling down Tolka Park or moving to Dalymount Park will eventually see the death of the club, and I honestly couldn't give a **** if it hurts some of the current fans, because the survival of the club is at stake here. Obviously, gaining funding or whatever for out that way could be difficult, but a 5-10k seater stadium out there would be great.

I agree with you on the Rovers move to Tallaght that has hugely benefitted them.

I think you are on to something in that the Dublin clubs have remained in areas of declining population and failed to tap-in to the suburbs where the population now lives. Shels to Swords and Bohs to Blanchardstown would be two to consider. They would need stadiums though. Could a 10,000 seater be built at Abbottstown?

anncoates

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Discussing alternatives isnt being a "franchise fan".

If Liverpool and Everton were facing financial ruin, playing to empty grounds in league a thats floundering, you might have a case for comparison. This isnt about winning the league, its about having a sustainable one with sustainable clubs.

More clubs than not are relatively stable in the Premier here. And the league isn't going to go away.

Many clubs in England are just debt juggling away from 'financial ruin'.

What's really needed is proper investment and management in the league to move forward.

As said already, the issue in these threads is that the problem posited is that the league isn't like the premier league and that the yardstick for a functioning league is having a major league.

As I've pointed out, a better and sustainable league here is possible with correct stewardship and investment. It doesn't have to involve obliterating the existing clubs. It might be still be too modest a league for many Irish fans but it will be no different than to the majority of European leagues outside the marquee leagues.

Of course, that needs to happen but it's actually more likely, and cheaper, than a franchise system here suddenly delivering champions league success and massive crowds.

anncoates

Godge wrote: »

I agree with you on the Rovers move to Tallaght that has hugely benefitted them.

I think you are on to something in that the Dublin clubs have remained in areas of declining population and failed to tap-in to the suburbs where the population now lives. Shels to Swords and Bohs to Blanchardstown would be two to consider. They would need stadiums though. Could a 10,000 seater be built at Abbottstown?

The profiles of the inner city areas are changing and are less traditional communities what with demographic changes, renting, prices etc. People that grew up there are increasingly priced out and relocating out to the suburbs and commuter towns.

The suburbs, like Tallaght, are more like large towns now with with their own identity plus young, stable populations and that's something that clubs can hook into.

dan1895

Would a franchise system like they have in the US or Australia even be allowed under UEFA regulations? If so then why hasn't someone tried it yet as there are other leagues with problems, not just our own.

Pawwed Rig

Roddy will be on Newstalk to rant discuss this topic in a while

This should be on every thread about Roddy, Brian Kerr's analysis of him.

Apologies for linking Balls.ie

http://balls.ie/football/brian-kerr-let-rip-roddy-collins-shambolic-reign-last-night/

major bill

dan1895 wrote: »

Would a franchise system like they have in the US or Australia even be allowed under UEFA regulations? If so then why hasn't someone tried it yet as there are other leagues with problems, not just our own.

Red Bull Salzburg who are a Franchise are currently competing in Austria and Playing in europe, not quite sure the rules on overhauling a whole league with Franchise clubs, I dont think Uefa could allow it. Would have to be brought in gradually and stricter licensing requirements put in place to see existing clubs trickle out.