We need to get rid of every club in Dublin, outside of Shamrock Rovers and Bohemians

sugarman

sugarman wrote: »

Roddy Collins would have a hard time managing a Centra

Imagine working there and having to listen to the time Bohs did the double all day every day.

Mr_Spaceman

Speaking as a bit of an outsider here, surely Shels' support base and average attendances can't be too far off those of Bohs and Shamrock Rovers, for instance?

kksaints

Mr_Spaceman wrote: »

Speaking as a bit of an outsider here, surely Shels' support base and average attendances can't be too far off those of Bohs and Shamrock Rovers, for instance?

Nope Shels have the lowest average attendence of the big 4 Dublin clubs. Shams average attendence is generally the highest since they moved to Tallaght then there isnt much between Bohs and Pats with Bohs slightly higher and Shels a bit but not too much behind the other three.

dan1895

major bill wrote: »

Red Bull Salzburg who are a Franchise are currently competing in Austria and Playing in europe, not quite sure the rules on overhauling a whole league with Franchise clubs, I dont think Uefa could allow it. Would have to be brought in gradually and stricter licensing requirements put in place to see existing clubs trickle out.

Yeh i meant a whole league system rather than an individual team. I doubt Red Bull Salzburg have marquee players and just buy whoever they can afford like the rest of the clubs in Austria.

Green Giant

Deleted User wrote: »

Imagine working there and having to listen to the time Bohs did the double all day every day.

Or how "I kept Carlisle United in the Football League in my time there" and "I was talking to [insert name here] on a Pro Licence course I went to in England"

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Franchises won't work anyway. There might be one too many clubs in Dublin alright but it holds half the population of the country.
Cork City will always be well capable of getting crowds of 5k + quiet easily. It has a catchment area of 200k + to nearest senior club Cobh Ramblers. Cork City can draw from a bigger population than any other Irish club and the only population centres that could surpass it would be a South/North Dublin type team.

I don't even know if I want this to happen or if it's even possible but one way to improve attendances for sure would be to amalgamate the league with the north. You would be increasing the population that could attend league by 30%, which is a massive amount. Big rivalries would develop for Derry, Rovers, Cork, Dundalk with Linfield, Glentoran and other northern teams overnight. You would have to put in place a system where a minimum amount of northern teams would always have to play in the top flight, say 5.

If it was doable it would be one of the few ways of ensuring a rise in attendance averages for the league.

CSF

The argument that Pats and Shels are unsustainable is hilarious. 206 cumulative years and counting.

CSF

I mean relatively speaking, by the same thought process, Manchester and Liverpool would be better able to compete with Bayern, Real and Barca if we whipped away one of the clubs.

Captain Havoc

Omackeral wrote: »

That's the danger with any proposal of this nature. Only way I could shack up with another club in any capacity would be if mine went bust or whatever and I ended up living elsewhere that had a local team that wasn't a direct rival of my old club. So a Galway Utd or something maybe. But I know for a fact I wouldn't feel 1/10 of the passion for them that I do for my own team and would just be filling a void of live football more than anything. I've been to a few Pat's matches (when Bohs were not playing) as I live over that way that last few years and it was enjoyable...but in a totally different way.

A couple of years after Kilkenny City went I started following Rovers, when I got my drivers license. I know other former City fans do go to LOI games in Waterford or Wexford and I know two who go to Bohs. No, following Rovers is not the same as following City. I love getting in the car and going to games.

In terms of culling Dublin clubs, no, it solves some issues but creates others. I think you could potentially create a club capable of getting to the group stages of the champions league but in doing so you will end up with the league being shared between two Dublin clubs or potentially just the club that makes that first champions league. Dublin has approximately 25% of the population, of 20 teams, that would be 5 but we've six in the league so it's a true proportion.

I know people love to harp on about some romantic notion that there's an appetite for LOI in places like Carlow and Tralee but I believe the reality is, there isn't. I do admire clubs like Wexford youths that have been plugging away for the last ten years or so but again their average attendance this season is 347. Longford is the only small town getting 1,000+ average. Only existing junior clubs have a snowballs chance in hell of surviving starting off in the LOI. If you build it, they will not come.

Guy:Incognito

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

There might be one too many clubs in Dublin alright but it holds half the population of the country..

Not even close. 1.2 million in the greater Dublin area against a population of over 4 and a half million.

Omackeral

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I don't even know if I want this to happen or if it's even possible but one way to improve attendances for sure would be to amalgamate the league with the north. You would be increasing the population that could attend league by 30%, which is a massive amount. Big rivalries would develop for Derry, Rovers, Cork, Dundalk with Linfield, Glentoran and other northern teams overnight. You would have to put in place a system where a minimum amount of northern teams would always have to play in the top flight, say 5.

If logistics and permission were hypothetically not an issue, I still wouldn't think an All-Ireland League would be as amazing as some people think. You'd get Rovers vs Linfield alright which let's face it, would attract knuckle draggers (imagine that or Linfield vs Dundalk in Windsor in mid July) being played, but think of Bray Wanderers vs Dungannon Swifts, Longford Town vs Distillery, Ards vs Athlone, they wouldnt capture the imagination whatsoever. The Setanta Cup has had a novelty factor and yet the crowds are not interested. Also, didn't Linfield opt out of it last year?

iDave

Do you really want to share a league with these sorts?

http://balls.ie/football/northern-ireland-fans-group-unhappy-about-aviva-friendly-with-the-uk-c-team/

Guy:Incognito

CSF wrote: »

The argument that Pats and Shels are unsustainable is hilarious. 206 cumulative years and counting.

I'm not saying they are or are not sustainable but history means very little if you're bankrupt today with little or no income. You can't sell 100 year of existence to anyone to fund the club.

monkey9

sugarman wrote: »

Roddy Collins would have a hard time managing a Centra

He'd probably leave the job a day or two before it shut down and then claim no retail franchise ever went out of business on his watch.

CSF

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I'm not saying they are or are not sustainable but history means very little if you're bankrupt today with little or no income. You can't sell 100 year of existence to anyone to fund the club.

If either club goes out of business, they deserve to. No arguments there. Looks unlikely to me though.

Paz-CCFC

SantryRed wrote: »

Unfortunately, we've come to a point in this league where clubs have to move from their spiritual homes if they're gonna increase in popularity or size. The lack of marketing by the clubs is unbelievable and there is absolutely no innovation whatsoever by the clubs (I'm talking from my experience with Shels).

And it's something that could work very effectively if the clubs joined together as a union. Take the successful billboard campaigns that Cork City have run. It's basically the one company - JCDuceaux - that manages a lot of these boards all around the country. City get 5/6 boards to advertise a match for about a week or two. If the 20 clubs joined together and took out 100-120 boards between them, imagine the overall savings you could get.

The Dublin clubs have a particularly strong potential to join together. Rovers ran a very strong campaign prior to moving into Tallaght, with billboards, as well as Luas signs and having an entire Luas carriage decked out in Rovers colours. They ended up selling 2,000 season tickets, I think, out of a capacity of 2,700 at the time. (Though, I'd imagine the smaller capacity might have worked in their favour a bit re STs, as people were afraid of never being able to get a ticket with the low supply.) The six Dubs plus Bray could do something like that with the Dublin Bus/the Luas/the Dart. They all have their routes which serve the City centre plus their catchment area, so you'd have a huge exposure.

The LoI clubs must have a combined turnover of €10M+. Loads of businesses and unions would give an arm and a leg for that kind of money coming through. Together, we'd have huge buying and collective bargaining power.

TINA1984

These are the current Dublin region LOI clubs:

Shamrock Rovers
Bohemians
St. Pats
Shelbourne
Bray Wanderers
UCD
Cabinteely

After extensive research, statistical analysis and focus group testing, I deduce that we need to drastically reduce the number of Dublin clubs to the following:

Shamrock Rovers
Bohemians
St. Pats
Bray Wanderers
UCD
Cabinteely

I think you'll agree that this is best way forward for all concerned.

bit of a bogey

anncoates wrote: »

Assuming the franchise fans would also love the idea of Liverpool and Everton combining to form The Mersey Roar so a team from Liverpool could win a league again?

I think you say that tongue and cheek but people making these sort of comparisons make no sense and are in completely different context giving the premier league is thriving.

The Irish league is not going to improve without radical change.

miroslavklose

bit of a bogey wrote: »

I think you say that tongue and cheek but people making these sort of comparisons make no sense and are in completely different context giving the premier league is thriving.

This is only true if the original suggestion makes sense. Which it doesn't.

And the league is improving right now without radical change. That's not to ssay there aren't radical changes that warrant looking at (the league have historically been quite proactive in messing around with league structure, numbers, distribution of points, etc.) but the idea of risking the very existence of high-level (for Ireland) domestic football just because some sort of change is needed doesn't stack up to scrutiny.

Doesn't help that nobody has ever submitted an idea for radical change that wasn't based on half-baked fantasy.

bit of a bogey

miroslavklose wrote: »

This is only true if the original suggestion makes sense. Which it doesn't.

And the league is improving right now without radical change. That's not to ssay there aren't radical changes that warrant looking at (the league have historically been quite proactive in messing around with league structure, numbers, distribution of points, etc.) but the idea of risking the very existence of high-level (for Ireland) domestic football just because some sort of change is needed doesn't stack up to scrutiny.

Doesn't help that nobody has ever submitted an idea for radical change that wasn't based on half-baked fantasy.

All valid points. If people have accepted and are happy with the standards of Irish football, then all that is fine. But there is not going to be any long term step improvement without some sort of major re-structuring.

the_monkey

have massive investment into the wages, might make better players more tempted to stay, league standard increases ... no reason why IPL can be as good as Scotland.

Pawwed Rig

Is that not what bankrupted all of the clubs the last time?

Paz-CCFC

People advocate radical change because they want to see the effects of their ideas immediately and they want instant success. Practically, I just don't think it's the best way to go. It might cause some interest initially, but if it doesn't go exactly the way that they had in mind, then that interest will fall away.

In reality, the best way to go is to make small, steady changes bit-by-bit. Small things like clubs working together, going for marketing, increasing investment in underage sides etc. across all clubs is the best way. From my own club's point of view (Cork City), we didn't keep drastically changing this and that to become title challengers again. We put time and effort into the youth sides since the fans took over in 2010. The first team had a few poor seasons on the pitch, but the youth teams excelled and then we started to reap the rewards in 2014 when the best young players started breaking into the first team. We advertised the club then with marketing campaigns and we started to get big crowds.

It takes a lot of effort, it's more slowly working and it's not as glamorous. But it works and it brings stability. Long term, I think it's the best way to go.

Zebra3

TINA1984 wrote: »

These are the current Dublin region LOI clubs:

Shamrock Rovers
Bohemians
St. Pats
Shelbourne
Bray Wanderers
UCD
Cabinteely

After extensive research, statistical analysis and focus group testing, I deduce that we need to drastically reduce the number of Dublin clubs to the following:

Shamrock Rovers
Bohemians
St. Pats
Bray Wanderers
UCD
Cabinteely

I think you'll agree that this is best way forward for all concerned.

Given how useless the FAI are, we'll take our chances in rejoining the Irish League.

dan1895

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

People advocate radical change because they want to see the effects of their ideas immediately and they want instant success. Practically, I just don't think it's the best way to go. It might cause some interest initially, but if it doesn't go exactly the way that they had in mind, then that interest will fall away.

In reality, the best way to go is to make small, steady changes bit-by-bit. Small things like clubs working together, going for marketing, increasing investment in underage sides etc. across all clubs is the best way. From my own club's point of view (Cork City), we didn't keep drastically changing this and that to become title challengers again. We put time and effort into the youth sides since the fans took over in 2010. The first team had a few poor seasons on the pitch, but the youth teams excelled and then we started to reap the rewards in 2014 when the best young players started breaking into the first team. We advertised the club then with marketing campaigns and we started to get big crowds.

It takes a lot of effort, it's more slowly working and it's not as glamorous. But it works and it brings stability. Long term, I think it's the best way to go.

I don't think that the majority of casual football fans in Ireland understand how the sport works. They don't know the effort, sacrifice and money that goes into just keeping the show on the road and barely meeting licensing requirements. They just want instant glory.

anncoates

bit of a bogey wrote: »

I think you say that tongue and cheek but people making these sort of comparisons make no sense and are in completely different context giving the premier league is thriving.

The Irish league is not going to improve without radical change.

Change is needed but doesn't have to involve obliterated existing clubs and trying to emulate one of the biggest leagues in the world.

Again, the criteria for a functioning, healthy league and a major league are two different things.

Captain Havoc

anncoates wrote: »

Change is needed but doesn't have to involve obliterated existing clubs and trying to emulate one of the biggest leagues in the world.

Again, the criteria for a functioning, healthy league and a major league are two different things.

Something I don't like is trying to copy "the best" , if you copy innovation you'll always be behind it.

miroslavklose

bit of a bogey wrote: »

All valid points. If people have accepted and are happy with the standards of Irish football, then all that is fine. But there is not going to be any long term step improvement without some sort of major re-structuring.

Well "major" is debatable, but just because something needs to be done, doesn't mean any change is good.

CSF

Besides, the problems clearly lie much deeper than a geographical spread. I mean we're wowing here over Cork getting 6/7000 because in relative terms it is extremely high.

Cork are clearly the most ideally situated football club. Large population base, no real competition. The utopia that Collins has been dreaming of. But it's not that much is it? Clearly there are much bigger issues in the LOI that affect teams with great population bases too (ignoring the fact that the Dublin population spread between 4 is actually grand).

People look too much at the rugby model and seem to just assume it will automatically translate to football. Ignoring the fact that the format of club sport is completely different in the 2 sports, and it's the format itself that makes provincial rugby work. Leinster and Munster went right into the elite. Somehow I don't think Pats and Rovers would suddenly become a force if Shels and Pats ceased to exist. And ultimately that's what the Irish sports fan is interested in.

CSF

bit of a bogey wrote: »

I think you say that tongue and cheek but people making these sort of comparisons make no sense and are in completely different context giving the premier league is thriving.

The Irish league is not going to improve without radical change.

Obviously. But what change and how would it be done and how would it improve things?

I mean it doesn't take Einstein to come on here and claim that football here needs freshening up.

bit of a bogey

CSF wrote: »

People look too much at the rugby model and seem to just assume it will automatically translate to football. Ignoring the fact that the format of club sport is completely different in the 2 sports, and it's the format itself that makes provincial rugby work. Leinster and Munster went right into the elite. Somehow I don't think Pats and Rovers would suddenly become a force if Shels and Pats ceased to exist. And ultimately that's what the Irish sports fan is interested in.

You are right, Pat's and Rovers wouldn't suddenly become a force like Leinster and Munster. Rugby is a much smaller game with a different focus and you cant realistically expect any team from such a small county to competitive in winning major European trophies time and time again. Rugby and GAA are completely different sports but you can still take leanings from any organisation or business.

A realistic ambition should be to create community spirited teams which kids aspire to play for. Its obvious that the top players will go to England but why cant we create a culture where talent is developed here into adulthood. If they stand out playing in League of Ireland, then let the foreign clubs come in and pay the money.