Bus Strike (read warning in post #1)

Stheno

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

Public or private, commuter services have always been a pain and expensive and very unreliable in this country, hence why i drive everywhere.

I live in swords and used think the same
now when I work in Dublin city centre I take swords express

If I am working in Belfast city centre which I do regularly I use aircoach, my oh drops me down to the airport and instead of a stressful drive I grab a coffee and enjoy a nice trip

end of the road

Stheno wrote: »

Or realise that the world is changing and nothing is guaranteed
I took a 30% pay cut to get a job in 2011 and four years later have recouped that and more through upskilling and understanding the demand for skills in my area

or even better, fight for what you have got

Stheno

gbob wrote: »

Read the report I posted above regarding the privatisation of public transport.

Read my real life experiences of using private versus semi state transport services

Stheno

end of the road wrote: »

or even better, fight for what you have got

My contract ended I had to do find a new job and start anew

Like lots of drivers might need to

cdebru

kildarecommuter wrote: »

TBH after the Aer Lingus/ Dublin Airport injunction I'd say the unions have done their homework on this one to make sure they don't get caught out.

This has been in the offing since Donohue made his "unprecedented" intervention, I posted at the time that he was trying to get the industrial relations aspects boxed off, I thought they may have gone for an injunction, its odd to go looking for compensation if you consider the strike to be illegal why didn't they try and stop it rather than wait for it to start and then try and hammer the unions for money. Anyway hopefully you are right, can't see Jack letting the Siptu lads go ahead unless he was fairly sure it would stand up.

gbob

Stheno wrote: »

Aircoach is a direct contradiction of most of this.

Their service from Dublin airport to Belfast is cheaper than be, runs more often, is more accurate than be, staff are more pleasant too

Dunno about pay or subcention but in the couple of years I've been using it it a been the same courteous staff

In the five years I used the 41x I never had a bus driver acknowledge I was a regular

On swords express they'll say hello and know where you are going and don't sit in a cage

I'm actually delighted that the likes of Aircoach and Swords Express have found a gap in the market and providing a quality service, they've forced us to improve and refine what we offer. But that's not the core issue here, its the treatment of existing staff, and protecting what they have. Nobody wants a reduction in their standards, us included.

Stheno

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

How can any other company come along and say they can do "x" routes at a great service for and better cost than DB if they never done it before ?

I can see it happening if the tender was got by a private guy, would quote great to the NTA and they will swallow it up only for the lads to find they haven't a bog on how to run a bus service as opposed to CIE who have been doing it for donkeys now

Is that not exactly what swords express have done?

cdebru

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Jayziz shhhhhh. Dinny might be reading this thread, smacking his lips and writing up his tenders as we speak!

The Dinny Bus might just be coming to a route near you...well he owns practically everything else in this country, so why not try for the transport option!

Siteserve probably have a newly isle of Mann registered sub division that does bus routes, if only he had some connections to see his bid was there till the end.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

LUAS works great. Aircoach was a breath of fresh air when it started, nice buses, pleasant drivers. I get the St. Kevins coach regularly (private) and it's great. What are you talking about?

luas works because of the RPA. or has it transfered to the NTA now? aircoach and others have competition from BE and other operators. if they were the only ones operating the route, who knows whether things would be as they are. nothing stopping operators for applying for commercial licences to operate routes along side dublin bus. with the tendering however, there doesn't seem to be anything that can be brought to the table by the companies.

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

if they were the only ones operating the route, who knows whether things would be as they are

And again you have to be told that the NTA will set the standards that the operators will be required to meet.

Dan_Solo

Stheno wrote: »

My contract ended I had to do find a new job and start anew

Like lots of drivers might need to

So you lost your job and think everyone else should too. Great.

Dan_Solo

Stheno wrote: »

I'm self employed and in 26 years of being employed and having had over 15 jobs I've never needed a union

Self-employed guy doesn't need union... is there a point to this?

end of the road

Stheno wrote: »

Aircoach is a direct contradiction of most of this.
Their service from Dublin airport to Belfast is cheaper than be, runs more often, is more accurate than be, staff are more pleasant too
Dunno about pay or subcention but in the couple of years I've been using it it a been the same courteous staff

aircoach receives no subvention. bus eireann's belfast route i believe is expressway so receives no subsidy. it has competition. the tendered routes are mostly loss making routes that are unlikely to have other operators operating along it

Stheno wrote: »

In the five years I used the 41x I never had a bus driver acknowledge I was a regular

why does that matter though? i've had 1 or 2 who would recognize me, but mostly they don't. i don't care.

Stheno wrote: »

On swords express they'll say hello and know where you are going and don't sit in a cage

your dig about sitting in a cage is actually uncalled for. you are aware why dublin bus drivers require such protection? its great aircoach drivers don't, but if they tendered for some of the dublin bus routes for example and won, they might do so.

end of the road

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The purpose of unions is to cosset workers. Like the unions who object to workers losing their half hour for bank time despite getting paid electronically.

If you don't like your working conditions then do something to improve yourself and get a better job

or even better, get improvements in your current job for all

Stheno

gbob wrote: »

I'm actually delighted that the likes of Aircoach and Swords Express have found a gap in the market and providing a quality service, they've forced us to improve and refine what we offer. But that's not the core issue here, its the treatment of existing staff, and protecting what they have. Nobody wants a reduction in their standards, us included.

My point though is that swords express massively expanded their services unlike db expresso

Stheno

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Self-employed guy doesn't need union... is there a point to this?

I'm self employed less than a year all other years I was a regular employee

pmasterson95

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So you lost your job and think everyone else should too. Great.

Brilliant missing of the point.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

And again you have to be told that the NTA will set the standards that the operators will be required to meet.

meaning the companies have nothing to offer from what i can see. for me there is no point to this tendering. we won't get multiple opperators. we would get everything the NTA want with dublin bus.

Dan_Solo

Stheno wrote: »

I'm self employed less than a year all other years I was a regular employee

You had 15 jobs in 26 years and you never needed a union... sounds like you did to me.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Stheno wrote: »

Is that not exactly what swords express have done?

As you said yourself, at the beginning it was a limited service

It took them time to find their feet and get going aswell as grow more in terms of times and fleet and staff.

Unfortunately when you go into the public routes where all services have to run or else there are fines as there is little or no room for error. So if they get a route and don't run it correctly at the start then they will face fines or even face losing routes if they don't respond quick enough.

It's different when it's their own non pso route where they can do as they wish but with pso obligations.

So to answer that remark, yes they will struggle at the start

Dan_Solo

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Brilliant missing of the point.

Brilliant saying nothing.

gbob

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If you don't like your working conditions then do something to improve yourself and get a better job

And if you do like your working conditions then do something to protect them.

end of the road

Stheno wrote: »

My point though is that swords express massively expanded their services unlike db expresso

maybe dublin bus weren't allowed to expand such an offering

pmasterson95

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Brilliant saying nothing.

Brilliant discussion skills you have. I guess unions are needed for some who cant update or upskill and are terrified of change.

Stheno

end of the road wrote: »

aircoach receives no subvention. bus eireann's belfast route i believe is expressway so receives no subsidy. it has competition. the tendered routes are mostly loss making routes that are unlikely to have other operators operating along it



why does that matter though? i've had 1 or 2 who would recognize me, but mostly they don't. i don't care.



your dig about sitting in a cage is actually uncalled for. you are aware why dublin bus drivers require such protection? its great aircoach drivers don't, but if they tendered for some of the dublin bus routes for example and won, they might do so.

In relation to service it's nice to see a friendly face
in relation to sittin in a cage swords express drivers don't db drivers on the same route to get to my house do and can be quite abusive

I understand they need it on some routes but do believe it is unhelpful on others

Dan_Solo

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Brilliant discussion skills you have. I guess unions are needed for some who cant update or upskill and are terrified of change.

I'm not in any union.
Aw, and you though you had an angle there. Nope.

Stheno

end of the road wrote: »

maybe dublin bus weren't allowed to expand such an offering

Maybe Dublin bus didn't take multiple feedback as I was told at the time as being useful and a competitor took advantage?

pmasterson95

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I'm not in any union.
Aw, and you though you had an angle there. Nope.

No I was just saying in general that some people mightnt be able to do anything else so if they loose this its dole. Some people can upskill and be good at other things. Maybe certain drivers cant so rabidly want protection.



Thread aint about you bbz xoxox

end of the road

Stheno wrote: »

In relation to service it's nice to see a friendly face
in relation to sittin in a cage swords express drivers don't db drivers on the same route to get to my house do and can be quite abusive

I understand they need it on some routes but do believe it is unhelpful on others

well, the dublin bus drivers do need it whether they need it or not. for the simple reason, its much easier to have a common fleet of busses incase a bus which would usually do one of the routes that need such protection needs to do one of the routes that you believe don't need the protection.

Stheno

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You had 15 jobs in 26 years and you never needed a union... sounds like you did to me.

Every time I moved added a few grand to my salary tbh

I'm now in a position where I charge for hours worked, the lots of free time and for the most part choose what work I want to do?

end of the road

Stheno wrote: »

Maybe Dublin bus didn't take multiple feedback as I was told at the time as being useful and a competitor took advantage?

or maybe they weren't allowed to expand the express routes.

Dan_Solo

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Thread aint about you bbz xoxox

Several minutes after...

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Brilliant discussion skills you have.

LOL.

Stheno

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

As you said yourself, at the beginning it was a limited service

It took them time to find their feet and get going aswell as grow more in terms of times and fleet and staff.

Unfortunately when you go into the public routes where all services have to run or else there are fines as there is little or no room for error. So if they get a route and don't run it correctly at the start then they will face fines or even face losing routes if they don't respond quick enough.

It's different when it's their own non pso route where they can do as they wish but with pso obligations.

So to answer that remark, yes they will struggle at the start

The 41x has been running for years, they asked for suggestions on improving it, didn't bother

Swords express improved

A real example of private operator adapting and public not

pmasterson95

Stheno wrote: »

Every time I moved added a few grand to my salary tbh

I'm now in a position where I charge for hours worked, the lots of free time and for the most part choose what work I want to do?

Ah yeah but if you were in a union youd have had one job with a wage less than what you get now after you progression. Sure who wants to earn extra k's when ya can stay still not progressing.

cdebru

Stheno wrote: »

Aircoach is a direct contradiction of most of this.

Their service from Dublin airport to Belfast is cheaper than be, runs more often, is more accurate than be, staff are more pleasant too

Dunno about pay or subcention but in the couple of years I've been using it it a been the same courteous staff

In the five years I used the 41x I never had a bus driver acknowledge I was a regular

On swords express they'll say hello and know where you are going and don't sit in a cage

And did you ever stop to think why they sit in a cage ? Do you think they like it or have you ever had someone try to stab you with a syringe ? Or try and beat you over the head with an iron bar ?


I will let you in on a little secret, the model the NTA are introducing will if anything make all those things you complain of worse, you see the companies will be paid on a km driven basis so if you get on the bus or don't makes no difference they get paid the same amount anyway, innovation, there won't be any because that is not what they are paid for, all of that is the NTA ( who are the dreaded public servants)
They will bid on a service level the NTA wants, that's it pay dont pay, go dont go, they will have to meet service level targets just as DB does, but you won't really be their customer, unlike DB who depend on customer fares to keep going.

gbob

Stheno wrote: »

My point though is that swords express massively expanded their services unlike db expresso

I know nothing about Swords Express and very little about DB, I do know that we are stifled by the governments desire for privatisation and have been since Seamus Brennan was transport minister, they are blinkered to the real evidence from many international studies on it and are determined to force the transport sector into a minimum wage service. I'd encourage all to educate themselves to the true cost to the public of this action and realise the travelling public is so obviously not their priority.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

Why do you keep trying to spin this line? The competition occurs at the tendering stage. If DB feels it can offer a service that meets the NTA specification for cleanliness, punctuality etc., and can do so at the lowest cost, they will win the contract.

And if the NTA are not happy with the service provided, they can withdraw the contract. Where's the downside for commuters?

so its not about competition then, but who can do it for the cheepist. grand, glad we've got that sorted then. what if later on the NTA decide that some of the specifications aren't needed as they want to cut more costs? none of that is competition to me.

Gatling

Any how 40million to cover just 10% of routes in wages .
Does anybody else think it's fairly inflated cost for just 10% of the routes .
Surely the unions have to take some of the blame for the high Wage bill .
We're not even getting a quality service a lot of the time .
if airlines and so on can have found a way to reduce costs and over heads with new contracts surely the same can apply to db services .
10 % could loose there jobs and might very well have to seek employment with a private operator surely it's a good thing having a 40 million + savings is better for the good of the other 90% .
Or do the union's keep demanding zero cuts ,zero lay offs .
We want more .
Then in a few years the company implodes due to unrealistic wage demands financial benefits

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

Come off of it - it's running a bus service, not launching missions to Mars (although incidentally a private company is leading NASA on this one).

running a bus service, specially one with a lot of loss making routes, costs money.

cdebru

Stheno wrote: »

Every time I moved added a few grand to my salary tbh

I'm now in a position where I charge for hours worked, the lots of free time and for the most part choose what work I want to do?

Greedy and selfish, I believe looking for extra money is called .

end of the road

Stheno wrote: »

The 41x has been running for years, they asked for suggestions on improving it, didn't bother

Swords express improved

A real example of private operator adapting and public not

the private operator has the freedom to do as it wishes. the public operator probably would have implemented the changes but maybe didn't get approval from the department, or maybe the NTA was up and running when you made your suggestions. i can't say, but don't just take it for granted that dublin bus had a say in the matter, they may not have

pmasterson95

cdebru wrote: »

Greedy and selfish, I believe looking for extra money is called .

Theres a difference when your actually improving yourself and finding jobs that yield the requisite pay increase however not bettering yourself, being terrified of competition and still demanding increases is ridiculous.


Nice try turning phrases against me.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Stheno wrote: »

The 41x has been running for years, they asked for suggestions on improving it, didn't bother

Swords express improved

A real example of private operator adapting and public not

because dublin bus have to answer to the NTA,

the same NTA that for ages wouldn't allow them to use the port tunnel on the express to swords as opposed to swords express who can do as they wish because they have nobody to answer to.

So the issue there is with the NTA , not dublin bus.

frankoreagan

Probably been answered already, but why didn't the drivers operate their routes as normal but just decline to take fares off passengers? would hurt DB/NTA, but not the passengers who depend on the service and who have got nothing to do with the dispute.

cdebru

Gatling wrote: »

Any how 40million to cover just 10% of routes in wages .
Does anybody else think it's fairly inflated cost for just 10% of the routes .
Surely the unions have to take some of the blame for the high Wage bill .
We're not even getting a quality service a lot of the time .
if airlines and so can have found a way to reduce costs and over heads with new contracts surely the same can apply to db services .
10 % could loose there jobs and might very well have to seek employment with a private operator surely it's a good thing having a 40 million + savings is better for the good of the other 90% .
Or do the union's keep demanding zero cuts ,zero lay offs .
We want more .
Then in a few years the company implodes due to unrealistic wage demands financial benefits

€ 40 m is the combined cost for both companies which would include redundancies, wages etc etc as well as other costs, when you start spreading it amongst 4 or 500 people €40m wouldn't go very far.
Keep twisting though

Stheno

Gatling wrote: »

Any how 40million to cover just 10% of routes in wages .
Does anybody else think it's fairly inflated cost for just 10% of the routes .
Surely the unions have to take some of the blame for the high Wage bill .
We're not even getting a quality service a lot of the time .
if airlines and so on can have found a way to reduce costs and over heads with new contracts surely the same can apply to db services .
10 % could loose there jobs and might very well have to seek employment with a private operator surely it's a good thing having a 40 million + savings is better for the good of the other 90% .
Or do the union's keep demanding zero cuts ,zero lay offs .
We want more .
Then in a few years the company implodes due to unrealistic wage demands financial benefits

I was wonderwondering about that figure too
ten per cent of drivers at two thousand drivers is two hundred

Forty million implies payouts of that amount

cdebru

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Theres a difference when your actually improving yourself and finding jobs that yield the requisite pay increase however not bettering yourself, being terrified of competition and still demanding increases is ridiculous.


Nice try turning phrases against me.

But no one in DB is looking for a pay increase right now so how are they greedy again ?

Gatling

cdebru wrote: »

€ 40 m is the combined cost for both companies which would include redundancies, wages etc etc as well as other costs, when you start spreading it amongst 4 or 500 people €40m wouldn't go very far.
Keep twisting though

Not twisting anything I've been asking questions on certain issue's.

cdebru

Stheno wrote: »

I was wonderwondering about that figure too
ten per cent of drivers at two thousand drivers is two hundred

Forty million implies payouts of that amount

3300 people in DB 1700 in BE so 5000 people, 10% is 500 people the figure is a combined figure for both companies .

Delta2113

frankoreagan wrote: »

Probably been answered already, but why didn't the drivers operate their routes as normal but just decline to take fares off passengers? would hurt DB/NTA, but not the passengers who depend on the service and who have got nothing to do with the dispute.

- legal difficulties for the unions so they could not do this.