Bus Strike (read warning in post #1)

Gatling

cdebru wrote: »

3300 people in DB 1700 in BE so 5000 people, 10% is 500 people the figure is a combined figure for both companies .

I'm sure i heard earlier it would cost db 40 million not cie or combined db and be

end of the road

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Theres a difference when your actually improving yourself and finding jobs that yield the requisite pay increase however not bettering yourself, being terrified of competition and still demanding increases is ridiculous.


Nice try turning phrases against me.

but there is no competition. its who can do it the cheepist.

end of the road

frankoreagan wrote: »

Probably been answered already, but why didn't the drivers operate their routes as normal but just decline to take fares off passengers? would hurt DB/NTA, but not the passengers who depend on the service and who have got nothing to do with the dispute.

that method is illegal unfortunately

Gatling

end of the road wrote: »

but there is no competition. its who can do it the cheepist.

Isn't that how competition works who can supply a product or service cheaper and giving consumers more options to choose the service they want

Cookie_Monster

cdebru wrote: »

No it is a transfer of undertakings, like when a company changes cleaning contractors or security, etc or if a company sells part of its business, the new employer is legally obliged to take on any staff that want to stay on the terms and conditions they previously had, it doesn't include pension rights, and has been blatantly ignored in a lot of cases with seemingly no penalty. But most decent employers observe it.

Why any company would be interested in bidding for a contract under those restrictions is beyond me. You'd never, ever hire someone without going through and interview and performance appraisal process, why should this be circumvented in such circumstances?
It's terrible legislation designed to protect the worst employees while punishing those that outperform.

Dub13

Stheno wrote: »

A real example of private operator adapting and public not

Was it not a case and I could be wrong I don't live in Swords but a good friend does and he was telling me something about the Swords Express trying for a long time to stop the 41x using the tunnel....? This was a few years ago so not sure of the full info.

Edit: I just seen my point has been made above.

dfx-

Stheno wrote: »

Aircoach also operate multiple routes

Several years ago Dublin bus had a community interaction event in pavilions in swords and st the time I asked why their swords xpresso services were so limited four for me in the morning and three in the evening. He said he'd check and get bavk to me and never did

At the time swords express ran a fairly limited service too

They introduced more busses, expanded their routes to vary routes and cover more of swords, and added a route to merrion square and also introduced a late night service at weekends

I used both recently, the 41x was barely full in the morning yet three swords express busses run in the same 10 minutes and are full, five years later db still have the same rubbish timetable

Which of those services do you think is going to do better?

Edit on the whole swords express staff are far nicer to deal with also

Swords express is only concerned with Swords (aside, I haven't seen a Swords Express Bus along the 41B, 43 or 102 route that DB serves in Swords) and then only concerned with their own selected routes in Swords.

They don't go from Swords to Lucan or Tallaght to Clare Hall or Finglas to Liffey Valley or Ballinteer to Santry or Walkinstown to Charlestown and associated delays with those long routes through the city centre.

The demands and volume of customers on DB services and staff and maintenance massively send Swords Express out of their depth.

squonk

Fire the lot of them and hire people who want to work. Coming from the private sector there's no concept of a job for life. You've to keep evaluating the job you've got to decide whether it still matches where you're going and if it still caters for the skills you'll need for your next move. If it doesn't, you need to move of your own accord or stay, but ensure you're looking after your training to put yourself in the position for a good move when the time is right. If work doesn't provide that training, then take it in hand yourself.

Contrast this with a bunch of unionized lifers holding the traveling public to ransom because the environment is changing and they don't want to evolve. Anyone not driving tomorrow is a disgrace and deserves to be let go.

punisher5112

squonk wrote: »

Fire the lot of them and hire people who want to work. Coming from the private sector there's no concept of a job for life. You've to keep evaluating the job you've got to decide whether it still matches where you're going and if it still caters for the skills you'll need for your next move. If it doesn't, you need to move of your own accord or stay, but ensure you're looking after your training to put yourself in the position for a good move when the time is right. If work doesn't provide that training, then take it in hand yourself.

Contrast this with a bunch of unionized lifers holding the traveling public to ransom because the environment is changing and they don't want to evolve. Anyone not driving tomorrow is a disgrace and deserves to be let go.

Great idea....

oh wait that has been brought up for years getting a tad bit old.

Sure all the guys on the dole would do the job for half eh no they would not because they would lose all their benefits and actually have to go out and work.

We have been hearing this type of pure un educated tripe for years.

I work hard and worked hard to get where I am but to some that seems it is not enough and instead of life getting that little bit better some want us to rot away with no quality of life at all.


Best of luck in your career but we are fighting to save ours.

end of the road

Gatling wrote: »

Isn't that how competition works who can supply a product or service cheaper and giving consumers more options to choose the service they want

usually yes . with this however, the public don't get a choice. its the operator who wins and thats it. you will like it or lump it

end of the road

squonk wrote: »

Fire the lot of them

on what grounds. you can't simply fire someone because someone on boards says so, or just because.

squonk wrote: »

hire people who want to work.

dublin bus are currently trying to do that. they are struggling to get people to take up the jobs being advertized

squonk wrote: »

a bunch of unionized lifers holding the traveling public to ransom because the environment is changing and they don't want to evolve.

they are not holding anyone to ransom. bus routes being tendered out just because is hardly the "environment changing"

squonk wrote: »

Anyone not driving tomorrow is a disgrace and deserves to be let go.

again for what and on what grounds. considering dublin bus are finding it hard to get drivers how the hell are we going to find people to replace all the drivers if they are let go just because someone on boards says so?

KomradeBishop

Stheno wrote: »

At the same time the national transport authority are tasked with ensuring we have the best transport services at the best vale

If db and be caanot win these routes via tender then clearly they are not the best option

As I said on another thread the drivers seem to have decided they will not win them and tupe will not be honoured and so decided it's justifiable to cause chaos for over a million passengers for seven days

Smacks of a childish collective tantrum

Very few people are convinced, that the tendering is anything more than privatizaton-by-stealth, as there are a multitude of ways to abuse the tendering process by political means (as other posters explained well - e.g. through corruption), to make it effectively meaningless - slowly allowing the rollout of privatized routes.

All the tendering process does, is put in place a deliberately 'gameable/exploitable' system, for slowly introducing privatization, while creating plausible deniability on behalf of government, through the tendering program.

People need to be a little less naive about this, and start reading up on how bus service tendering has gone down elsewhere, and see the bigger picture here - that this is a wider political move by government towards privatization, and not merely an isolated industrial dispute.

punisher5112

Because didn't you hear they are planning on recruiting chimps.

They will also be required to wear a cap like back in the day with on the buses.

Think people actually believe that's the way drivers actually carry on.

Back in the day some yes now there is no fun whatsoever or any craic or enjoyment.

cdebru

squonk wrote: »

Fire the lot of them and hire people who want to work. Coming from the private sector there's no concept of a job for life. You've to keep evaluating the job you've got to decide whether it still matches where you're going and if it still caters for the skills you'll need for your next move. If it doesn't, you need to move of your own accord or stay, but ensure you're looking after your training to put yourself in the position for a good move when the time is right. If work doesn't provide that training, then take it in hand yourself.

Contrast this with a bunch of unionized lifers holding the traveling public to ransom because the environment is changing and they don't want to evolve. Anyone not driving tomorrow is a disgrace and deserves to be let go.

Yawn coming from the private sector yawn give me a break, trust me you dont want bus drivers who evaluate the job to see if it fits with their current skill set or whether they need to upskill, you want experienced professional drivers, you dont want a high turnover of staff the longer they stay driving the safer they get, so you want to keep them as long as you can, high staff turnover and inexperienced drivers are a recipe for accidents.

Stop the bull**** please not every job is a stop gap to the next move, there are people in the private and public sector who spend 40+ years in the one job, if you want to live your life chasing your tail always looking for the next move off you go but we dont all have to join you.

cdebru

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why any company would be interested in bidding for a contract under those restrictions is beyond me. You'd never, ever hire someone without going through and interview and performance appraisal process, why should this be circumvented in such circumstances?
It's terrible legislation designed to protect the worst employees while punishing those that outperform.

No it is actually designed to protect workers so that they dont start at zero every time there is an contractor change, imagine you are a cleaner and after 3 years you get a pay rise, maybe a few extra days holidays a year then 2 years later your current employer loses the contract and the new one scraps the pay rise you worked so hard to get and cancels your couple of days holidays. And you start all over again.

Worse again is if every time the contract is renewed your wages were reduced so that a different company could win the tender.

You have already been through an interview you already have the job, why would you have to reapply for a job you already have ?

pmasterson95

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It's terrible legislation designed to protect the worst employees while punishing those that outperform.

I suppose thats why drivers are so terrified of change. They dont want to be shown up so desperatly want things to stay the same.

jank

Dublin bus Union members afraid that tendering will result in lost routes for the public, solution, strike so that all the public will be put out.

Any chance DB can invest in driverless buses?

plodder

So, the bus lanes aren't open to other traffic then? Or are they? How do you find out officially? No hint from https://www.nationaltransport.ie/ Latest news from April 24.

[edit]At least the private sector has some information

http://www.theaa.ie/AA/AA-Roadwatch.aspx bus lanes still closed to cars.

antoinolachtnai

end of the road wrote: »

the private operator has the freedom to do as it wishes. the public operator probably would have implemented the changes but maybe didn't get approval from the department, or maybe the NTA was up and running when you made your suggestions. i can't say, but don't just take it for granted that dublin bus had a say in the matter, they may not have

What actually happened was that Dublin Bus operated illegally and took steps to put Swords Express off the road. The Department of Transport took a similar view. There was a court case.

dre wrote:

The demands and volume of customers on DB services and staff and maintenance massively send Swords Express out of their depth.

Swords Express is a pretty big operation Roughly speaking, it is 1.5 percent of Dublin's urban bus fleet. I can't see how you can just go and say the operators are out of their depth at a time when these guys are growing their business and constantly upgrading their equipment, whilst Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann lurch from crisis to crisis.

It is ridiculous to criticise Swords Express for not running more routes. Swords Express would love to operate more routes. There are no opportunities.

Everyone is assuming that the Swords Express route is somehow special, and a massively profitable route. It isn't. Routes like the 4 and 46A are far more profitable, because the daytime passenger volumes are so high (and of course, because the frequency at which they are operated is kept so low).

KD345

Why are the NTA being so quiet in all this?

This morning on the news I have heard from drivers, DB and BE management, LRC and the two unions, but why aren't the NTA explaining their side.

You would think this dispute was down to the company, when in fact they simply answer to the NTA.

The NTA have introduced route tendering. Why aren't they explaining to their passengers their side of things?

greenman09

Cycled this morning firhouse to town in just over half hr. Something I've wanted to do for ages and the strike gave me this chance. Only thing is I'm an hr early.

jamesbere

Happy Bus Strike day everybody!

dublindiehard

The NTA have issued briefings to the media serveral times in the last few weeks.

It's hardly their fault if the media choose not to print them.

_Kaiser_

end of the road wrote: »

so its not about competition then, but who can do it for the cheepist. grand, glad we've got that sorted then. what if later on the NTA decide that some of the specifications aren't needed as they want to cut more costs? none of that is competition to me.

I have to agree with hmmm on this one.. this idea you keep trying to push that competition is only valid if we have multiple operators running along the same routes is bizarre.
You've made it very clear that you feel that competition is fine as long as DB aren't forced to change or actually compete in any way, but that's just pure waste and would achieve nothing.

Leaving aside the fact that you'd then have loads of half-empty buses clogging the streets, what is the point in paying 2 (or more) operators to do the same trip?

It absolutely makes sense to tender at a route level - and there is nothing stopping DB from applying btw! - and while yes, overall cost is indeed an important factor, you'd presume that things like industry experience in providing similar services elsewhere, SLA adherence and so on would factor too.

MOH

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Unfortunately when you go into the public routes where all services have to run or else there are fines as there is little or no room for error. So if they get a route and don't run it correctly at the start then they will face fines or even face losing routes if they don't respond quick enough.

That'd be great. Because DB have a pretty awful track record in that regard on a lot of routes. No wonder they're going on strike: if they were actually held accountable for their performance they'd be losing routes hand over fist.

MOH

Delta2113 wrote: »

- legal difficulties for the unions so they could not do this.

Sound like they're facing legal difficulties now anyway.

greenman09 wrote: »

Cycled this morning firhouse to town in just over half hr. Something I've wanted to do for ages and the strike gave me this chance. Only thing is I'm an hr early.

Can't help thinking that's going to be a fairly common outcome of the strikes. People forced into finding an alternative means of getting to work and finding it's far superior and more reliable than the daily bus commute, leading to permanently lost customers

Marhay70

greenman09 wrote: »

Cycled this morning firhouse to town in just over half hr. Something I've wanted to do for ages and the strike gave me this chance. Only thing is I'm an hr early.

Downhill all the way, going home in the pi**ing rain will be another story.:eek:

Dyr

The problem they have is that people are going to figure out alternate modes of transport to dublin over the course of the next 7 strike days and they'll lose customers.

I walked the 4 miles into work today and it didn't take much longer than the bus journey would ( says it all) and I didn't have the hassle of dealing with dublin bus. Other than the slight problem of our climate they've now lost a customer.

I don't want to see privatization but I'd prefer it to a monopoly that shat on commuters for a generation and laughed about it.

Captain Chaos

Bambi wrote: »

The problem they have is that people are going to figure out alternate modes of transport to dublin over the course of the next 7 strike days and they'll lose customers.

I don't want to see privatization but I'd prefer it to a monopoly that shat on commuters for a generation and laughed about it.

That's what happened Irish Rail when the Malahide Estery Bridge collapsed 5 years ago. Many people went to the private bus service and found it to be faster and cheaper than the Commuter Rail tickets. They are still hurting from this.

ebbsy

MOH wrote: »

Sound like they're facing legal difficulties now anyway.



Can't help thinking that's going to be a fairly common outcome of the strikes. People forced into finding an alternative means of getting to work and finding it's far superior and more reliable than the daily bus commute, leading to permanently lost customers

True.

Dyr

Could help but notice f**k all bodies on the pickets, guess they preferred an extended bank holiday to solidarity

cdebru

MOH wrote: »

That'd be great. Because DB have a pretty awful track record in that regard on a lot of routes. No wonder they're going on strike: if they were actually held accountable for their performance they'd be losing routes hand over fist.

Actually they are held accountable, they meet and exceed every service level set by the NTA, every journey that does not operate or is curtailed or operates late has to be reported to the NTA.

BoatMad

traffic very light this morning, maybe we'd be better off with no buses. anything would be better then the current bus system.

It will be interesting to see how the new private operators fare

Stheno

BoatMad wrote: »

traffic very light this morning, maybe we'd be better off with no buses. anything would be better then the current bus system.

It will be interesting to see how the new private operators fare

Was just thinking the same about the traffic

kildarecommuter

Bambi wrote: »

Could help but notice f**k all bodies on the pickets, guess they preferred an extended bank holiday to solidarity

I'd imagine they have a rota for picketing

Gatling

Bambi wrote: »

Could help but notice f**k all bodies on the pickets, guess they preferred an extended bank holiday to solidarity

They left for the sunny south east apparently

Peppa Pig

cdebru wrote: »

they meet and exceed every service level set by the NTA,

According to the NTA they don't "meet and exceed every service level".

I can't be arsed looking through all reports but for the latest available data the Saturday peak service did not hit target for the last full year (2013) (97.9% against a target of 98%).
It is only 95.4% for the last three months of data and only 97% for the first six months last year.

NTA 2013
NTA 2014

I love this gem from the performance criteria

NTA wrote:

The Authority shall pay a Punctuality Performance Payment in respect of each Reporting Period, equivalent to 5% of the Maximum Period Payment, adjusted for Punctuality Performance Deductions as set out in paragraphs 19.5 to 19.9 of this Schedule 19. 19.1.1 The Authority shall pay a Service Quality Performance Payment in respect of each Quarter, equivalent to 5% of the Maximum Quarterly Payment, adjusted for Service Quality Performance Deductions as set out in paragraphs 19.10 to19.21 of this Schedule 19.

Translation = do your job properly and we give you a 5% bonus. Fail to hit your target and we don't give you as much of a bonus.

This publicly available information is great for checking claims.

pmasterson95

Bambi wrote: »

Could help but notice f**k all bodies on the pickets, guess they preferred an extended bank holiday to solidarity

Why is that not suprising!

cdebru

Peppa Pig wrote: »

According to the NTA they don't "meet and exceed every service level".

I can't be arsed looking through all reports but for the latest available data the Saturday peak service did not hit target for the last full year (2013) (97.9% against a target of 98%).
It is only 95.4% for the last three months of data and only 97% for the first six months last year.

NTA 2013
NTA 2014

I love this gem from the performance criteria

Translation = do your job properly and we give you a 5% bonus. Fail to hit your target and we don't give you as much of a bonus.

This publicly available information is great for checking claims.

They missed one target of saturday peak vehicle requirement by 0.1% wow definitely time to get the tenders out.

It actually is great though because all you hear is how terrible it all is but the statistics don't back it up.

Peppa Pig

cdebru wrote: »

They missed one target of saturday peak vehicle requirement by 0.1% wow definitely time to get the tenders out.

Why are you only focussing on one number I posted? They missed another target by 2.6%, which means almost 1 route in 20 misses a full service on a Saturday. And that's me looking for five minutes at the NTA website.

cdebru wrote: »

It actually is great though because all you hear is how terrible it all is but the statistics don't back it up.

It also shows you claim was wrong.

cdebru

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Why are you only focussing on one number I posted? They missed another target by 2.6%, which means almost 1 route in 20 misses a full service on a Saturday. And that's me looking for five minutes at the NTA website.

It also shows you claim was wrong.

The target is over the 12 months, variables can mean targets can be missed over a quarter but regained over the year.

Captain Chaos

kildarecommuter wrote: »

I'd imagine they have a rota for picketing

Yeah just for peak hours.

No pickets for hours on end and then 3 show up at once. Strike like they work.:D

Peppa Pig

cdebru wrote: »

The target is over the 12 months, variables can mean targets can be missed over a quarter but regained over the year.

It has been missed the target for the last three months, last six months and last 12 months of data. Averaging out over a year and a half DB have not hit that target.

Maybe you should read the reports ....

end of the road

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What actually happened was that Dublin Bus operated illegally and took steps to put Swords Express off the road. The Department of Transport took a similar view. There was a court case.



Swords Express is a pretty big operation Roughly speaking, it is 1.5 percent of Dublin's urban bus fleet. I can't see how you can just go and say the operators are out of their depth at a time when these guys are growing their business and constantly upgrading their equipment, whilst Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann lurch from crisis to crisis.

It is ridiculous to criticise Swords Express for not running more routes. Swords Express would love to operate more routes. There are no opportunities.

Everyone is assuming that the Swords Express route is somehow special, and a massively profitable route. It isn't. Routes like the 4 and 46A are far more profitable, because the daytime passenger volumes are so high (and of course, because the frequency at which they are operated is kept so low).

i don't believe Swords Express don't have opportunities to apply for commercial licences

cdebru

Peppa Pig wrote: »

It has been missed the target for the last three months, last six months and last 12 months of data. Averaging out over a year and a half DB have not hit that target.

Maybe you should read the reports ....

Maybe you might have another look over them yourself

1st quarter 2014 the saturday peak period requirement was 98.6
2nd quarter 2014 was 95.4 so over the first 2 quarters it was 97% the remaining 2 quarters of 2014 are not published yet so and nothing is published for 2015.


in 2013 they exceeded the target in the first and last quarter but dipped below in the 2nd and 3rd meaning for the year they missed the target by 0.1%.

end of the road

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I have to agree with hmmm on this one.. this idea you keep trying to push that competition is only valid if we have multiple operators running along the same routes is bizarre.
You've made it very clear that you feel that competition is fine as long as DB aren't forced to change or actually compete in any way, but that's just pure waste and would achieve nothing.

Leaving aside the fact that you'd then have loads of half-empty buses clogging the streets, what is the point in paying 2 (or more) operators to do the same trip?

It absolutely makes sense to tender at a route level - and there is nothing stopping DB from applying btw! - and while yes, overall cost is indeed an important factor, you'd presume that things like industry experience in providing similar services elsewhere, SLA adherence and so on would factor too.

the NTA is deciding everything. dublin bus aren't "competing" for anything as there is nothing to "compete" for. the companies won't have anything to offer. if the NTA had no specifications and the operators had to decide everything, you might have a point. but they aren't. it makes no sense to tender at all as there is nothing to be offered as the NTA have decided everything. that to me is not competition. on the routes where multiple operators are viable, there is true competition and its good, but on the PSO routes and other routes where multiple operators aren't viable then a publically owned company is the order of the day as far as i'm concerned. if the NTA force operators to decide the specifications then we may talk differently.

end of the road

Bambi wrote: »

The problem they have is that people are going to figure out alternate modes of transport to dublin over the course of the next 7 strike days and they'll lose customers.

I walked the 4 miles into work today and it didn't take much longer than the bus journey would ( says it all) and I didn't have the hassle of dealing with dublin bus. Other than the slight problem of our climate they've now lost a customer.

I don't want to see privatization but I'd prefer it to a monopoly that shat on commuters for a generation and laughed about it.

i don't see any laughing. and don't think privatization wouldn't lead to "commuters being shat on" as there is no guarantee of it. you don't want to see privatization, then support bus eireann and dublin bus even if you don't agree with their strike.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

That's what happened Irish Rail when the Malahide Estery Bridge collapsed 5 years ago. Many people went to the private bus service and found it to be faster and cheaper than the Commuter Rail tickets. They are still hurting from this.

i think those services are growing again though. but yes all the infrastructure should have been sorted and extended out where possible to allow more capacity and faster running when the money was there

end of the road

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Why are you only focussing on one number I posted? They missed another target by 2.6%, which means almost 1 route in 20 misses a full service on a Saturday. And that's me looking for five minutes at the NTA website.

It also shows you claim was wrong.

that could have been down to traffic or a breakdown. it doesn't show his claim is wrong at all

MrMorooka

With friends like 'end of the road', the unions and workers don't need enemies.

Please stop posting dude, in every thread you just really really hurt the side you are on.