New suckler scheme on per hectare basis!!

skoger

smokey-fitz wrote: »

....
Dont get me wrong, improving is the best and only way forward, but to push improvement to fast and the risk of loosing payment and incur penalty in the process if anything goes wrong is going to be a big blow to anyone.

I think this could be the biggest problem with the scheme as it stands. We're talking about getting 4 or 5 stars in one generation.

limo_100

Basically it's a big kick up the arse to anyone using stock from the dairy herd black limousine Angus and black whiteheads. Iv bought in nearly 20 black whites heifers to rear and sell on and they all have different sires and none of them cross 2stars. And blues from d dairy they don't go above 2either. It's only every second week there sayin in d paper that the black limo form British Fresian performs as the best suckler. And there's Notting wrong the the Angus or Herefords from the dairy you at least gurenteed weight for age.

Limestone Cowboy

limo_100 wrote: »

Basically it's a big kick up the arse to anyone using stock from the dairy herd black limousine Angus and black whiteheads. Iv bought in nearly 20 black whites heifers to rear and sell on and they all have different sires and none of them cross 2stars. And blues from d dairy they don't go above 2either. It's only every second week there sayin in d paper that the black limo form British Fresian performs as the best suckler. And there's Notting wrong the the Angus or Herefords from the dairy you at least gurenteed weight for age.

Ya it sounds like a load of cods wallop to me. Have some very milky red lims here the calf roughly the same time every year that are only 2 star maternal and terminal.

tanko

Nettleman wrote: »

asked and answered.- 1 have nearly 50% of my females 4 star and above so not too tough. Theres too much small print, hidden costs involved here. Also a major information transfer involved from farmer to quango in cork-not interested in making quangos more relevant and making us dependent on them.

I'm all in favour of genetic improvement in the suckler herd but this scheme puts ICBF in a very powerful position.
The make up of the ICBF board doesn't inspire me with confidence, 17 members in total. 5 Progressive Genetics/Munster Ai, 4 IFA, 2 IHFA, 2 DAFM, 1 Dovea Ai, 2 ICMSA and 1 from Herdbooks.
Not much independant expertise there.
The share holdings are dominated by PG and Munster Ai also.

Bullocks

limo_100 wrote: »

Basically it's a big kick up the arse to anyone using stock from the dairy herd black limousine Angus and black whiteheads. Iv bought in nearly 20 black whites heifers to rear and sell on and they all have different sires and none of them cross 2stars. And blues from d dairy they don't go above 2either. It's only every second week there sayin in d paper that the black limo form British Fresian performs as the best suckler. And there's Notting wrong the the Angus or Herefords from the dairy you at least gurenteed weight for age.

Yup I can't see our black suckler going into the scheme . The money would be nice but they can **** off if they think I'll change to a 5 star herd of muscley , lacking in milk continentals and pretend that it's a great herd then . I thought the factories were saying that they didn't want these big carcase cattle either ?

limo_100

blue5000 wrote: »

This is why we have 5 star maternal bulls dropping to 3 stars very quickly. Later on more stats come out and the truth gets revealed as reliability % increases. It's not perfect, it should only be used as a guide. As genotyping increases the messers are being found out. Bad information knocks people back two or three generations when choosing a bull.

I forgot to reply to you earlier but the heifer was not bred by a bad bull she was by RIO a long time proven bull and the calf was a ADX bull calf

Bodacious

is it only payable on no. of calved cows you had in2014?!

dohc turbo2

That was said at a btap meeting I was at yesterday , he said a lot of the terms and not set yet , I only had heifers last year as only starting off so must find out where I stand

LivInt20

Bodacious wrote: »

is it only payable on no. of calved cows you had in2014?!

No, but to keep suckler cow numbers up you must test 60% of your cow numbers held in 2014.

Grueller

So a twenty cow man must test 12 cows @30 each and give icbf €60 as well. That adds up to €420. He will only get a payment of €1670 iirc so gains €1250 for all the extra cross compliance risk. Say this guy expands to 40 cows, does he now need to test 24 or still only 12?

We have around 80 cows here so need to test 48. €1440 of a genomic test bill. Crikey. It is more worth our while as we wold get about €6500 out of the scheme leaving €5000 after costs. The small suckler farmer is being shafted here. First 20 cows imo should have a larger premium on their payment sliding back further after that. Say €150 for 1st 20 and €50 for remainders with about 40% tested. We at 80 cows would still get €6000, a small drop but 20 cow man would get €3000, a large rise. My figures may need revision to ensure the budget can cope but the small suckler man needs this support.

LivInt20

Grueller wrote: »

So a twenty cow man must test 12 cows @30 each and give icbf €60 as well. That adds up to €420. He will only get a payment of €1670 iirc so gains €1250 for all the extra cross compliance risk. Say this guy expands to 40 cows, does he now need to test 24 or still only 12?

We have around 80 cows here so need to test 48. €1440 of a genomic test bill. Crikey. It is more worth our while as we wold get about €6500 out of the scheme leaving €5000 after costs. The small suckler farmer is being shafted here. First 20 cows imo should have a larger premium on their payment sliding back further after that. Say €150 for 1st 20 and €50 for remainders with about 40% tested. We at 80 cows would still get €6000, a small drop but 20 cow man would get €3000, a large rise. My figures may need revision to ensure the budget can cope but the small suckler man needs this support.

Fair play.

A larger suckler farmer trying to look after the smaller one.

tanko

One of the conditions of the scheme is that all calves must be tested for BVD within 20 days of birth.
Is that already the rule at the moment?

Count Mondego

tanko wrote: »

One of the conditions of the scheme is that all calves must be tested for BVD within 20 days of birth.
Is that already the rule at the moment?

You have to tag them within 21 days, not sure about time limit on sending the sample.

tanko

Count Mondego wrote: »

You have to tag them within 21 days, not sure about time limit on sending the sample.

Exactly, a farmer could tag a calf on day 20 and that's in time but if he posts the sample off then they're going to be outside the 20 day limit for BVD testing which is a condition of this new scheme apparently.
This doesn't make any sense.

Mac Taylor

tanko wrote: »

Exactly, a farmer could tag a calf on day 20 and that's in time but if he posts the sample off then they're going to be outside the 20 day limit for BVD testing which is a condition of this new scheme apparently.
This doesn't make any sense.

Tanko, I'm surprised at you, I had you down as one of the intelligent ones, when does sense or common sense come in to when dealing with the Dept of Ag or any new schemes etc etc:D

Sure, if sense came into it half of us woudn't be at it.

BTW - I agree with you was thinking the same thing reading the journal last night

votuvant

Are all new schemes being set up to be deliberately difficult with loads of terms and conditions?

GLAS, this one, the new SPS schemes all seem to be laden down with needless red tape that seem to be set up that way to keep farmers under the thumb. Dept. of Ag thinking seems to be step out of line and we will penalise you every way we can. Jobs for the boys imo.

I agree with the principal of this scheme but there are so many issues that need to be resolved as has already been mentioned.

Apart from all that one of my biggest bug bears with ICBF is cow ratings. What data do they need to improve them. I have a CH cow on her 6th lactation (calved at 24mths) that produces a class calf, always over 350kgs at around 9 mths with a CI of 364 and she has an index of 22. WTF

Nettleman

votuvant wrote: »

Are all new schemes being set up to be deliberately difficult with loads of terms and conditions?

GLAS, this one, the new SPS schemes all seem to be laden down with needless red tape that seem to be set up that way to keep farmers under the thumb. Dept. of Ag thinking seems to be step out of line and we will penalise you every way we can. Jobs for the boys imo.

I agree with the principal of this scheme but there are so many issues that need to be resolved as has already been mentioned.

Apart from all that one of my biggest bug bears with ICBF is cow ratings. What data do they need to improve them. I have a CH cow on her 6th lactation (calved at 24mths) that produces a class calf, always over 350kgs at around 9 mths with a CI of 364 and she has an index of 22.
WTF

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/details-of-new-suckler-scheme-welcomed-but-concerns-remain-180232/

Its all about information extraction imo. If you did a list of all your farm information you would be handing over as a matter of routine under the CAP schemes, you would get some shock. e.g. They want profit monitors done as part of the new knowledge transfer scheme and I have no problem telling them what im making as soon as the factories tell us what they're making, but for now, they can take swing for it.

Ms. Chanandler Bong

Doing a little research on this at the moment and found this buried somewhere

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/exclusive-details-of-new-suckler-support-scheme-revealed-179761/

From the article:
There will be seven key requirements for the scheme all centred on improving herd output. The breakdown is as follows:

1) Recording calving details: Farmers must carry out a calving ease survey on every cow calving on the farm and record it through animal events along with the tag number or AI code of the sire.

This requirement will account for 10% of the total payment.

2) Annual Farm Survey: From 2015, applicants will be required to complete a herd survey in respect of all cows, calves and stock bulls on his/her holding. Each year farmers will have to detail calf quality, docility, size and vigour along with details on scours and pneumonia. The milking ability of cows, docility and culling reasons will also have to be recorded annually along with the docility and functionality of stock bulls. From 2016, the survey will be extended to include more general farm practices around grassland management and herd health. The terms and conditions state that in order to ensure the validity of some of the data recorded calves must be maintained on the holding for at least five months.

This requirement will account for 25% of the total payment.

3) Genotyping: Applicants will be required to take a tissue tag sample from animals selected for genotyping by ICBF. Tissue samples must be taken and submitted for all of these animals. The number of animals genotyped each year will be at least equivalent to 60% of the number of calved suckler cows on the holding in 2014. This will prevent farmers from dramatically reducing cow numbers over the lifetime of the scheme. For example if an applicant calved down 15 eligible cows in 2014 he/she must maintain at least 9 eligible cows each year of the scheme.

This requirement will account for 20% of the total payment.

4) High genetic merit animals: For applicants using a stock bull, at least one bull on the farm must have been genotyped four or five star on either the terminal or replacement index (on within or across breed basis) at time of purchase. Farmers will have until the end of June 2019 to comply with this regulation. For the end of June 2016, 80% of AI used on participating holdings must be from four or five star bulls on either the terminal or replacement index.

This requirement will account for 10% of the total payment.

5) Female replacements: Scheme applicants are required to ensure that a percentage of their heifers/eligible suckler cows are genotyped females that are: four or five stars on the replacement index (either across or within breed) at the time of purchase or at the time of genotyping. Where a non-genotyped heifer is purchased this animal must be genotyped and subsequently confirmed four or five star on the replacement index. The conditions also state that the heifers are at least 16 months old and born in 2013 or later. By the end of October 2018, farmers must ensure that at least 20% of heifers/eligible cows comply with these regulations. The figure must increase to 50% by the end of October 2020.

This requirement will account for 20% of the total payment.

6) Complete a carbon navigator: All applicants in the scheme must complete a carbon navigator by the end of October 2016 and in each subsequent year of the scheme. In year one, the carbon navigator must be completed with the support of an approved advisor, the cost of which will be covered by the Department. Following the completion in year one applicants must submit data annually around areas such as grazing length, fertilizer use and slurry spreading.

This requirement will account for 10% of the total payment.

7) Farmer training: applicants will be required to attend specific training courses related to the scheme. Training must be completed by the end of October 2016. All applicants will be paid €166 to cover the costs associated with participation in the programme. This will be paid by the training provider directly to the scheme applicant upon completion of the course.


Also saw somewhere that DAFM will post out application forms to every suckler farmer in the coming days and weeks...

Figerty

It sounds as though this scheme has been setup to provide financial to the Pure breed societies.

Grueller

Figerty wrote: »

It sounds as though this scheme has been setup to provide financial to the Pure breed societies.

Not sure why you think that figerty. A lot of continental stock bulls will already be 4-5 star across breeds fo terminal which will leave them fit for the scheme. IMO the A.I companies are the ones set to gain. Lads breeding for 5 star replacement heifers will be using ai where it was never used before.

skoger

catreyn wrote: »

...

This scheme might not be as bad as I first thought.
We already do 1 and 2 for the Beef Data Program. Suppose it depends on what extras they want from next year
3 is testing at 30e/hd - we'll still be getting at least 50e.
4 we try to put all our cows to 4+ star bulls
5 not sure about this one
6 shouldn't be too hard if we're given an easy to follow form on what they want and given it at the start of the year
7 a day sitting in a classroom staring out the window


I might be over simplifying it and there's some small print somewhere screwing us over

Figerty

Grueller wrote: »

Not sure why you think that figerty. A lot of continental stock bulls will already be 4-5 star across breeds fo terminal which will leave them fit for the scheme. IMO the A.I companies are the ones set to gain. Lads breeding for 5 star replacement heifers will be using ai where it was never used before.

The initial scheme was to improve animal welfare and recording, this scheme seems to have moved too far.

4 and 5 star puts a lot of pressure on stock bull quality. No real problem with raising standards, but this is going to cause a lot of stress on heifers and cows from average herds with higher standard bulls needed. The aim, of course, is going raise beef standards which is a noble idea, but is the bar being set too high. I have had to compromise on easy calving AI bulls this year Vs quality due to work commitment preventing me being sure of being able to be in attendance at each calving.

There will be penalties for those that drop out or fail to meet the requirements if I have read the reports properly. This means that there is a huge onus on paper work and records; again arguable that it's merited for payment. However this puts a huge burden back on the farmer, and while I may be capable of handling this I can tell that probably 90% of me neighbours are too old to handle this stuff or not interested. My neighbours fell foul of the paper work in the first scheme; most dropped out.

The rating required are minimums,, for a herd to remain above these level there has to be a factor of safety. Should an animal die or perhaps some other misfortune happen is it possible that the thresholds will fail to be met? For small farmer these thresholds can be that small in a small herd. Over a six year period this is could be very difficult.

The last thing that galls me is the requirement to use 'approved planners' if I have the ability, motivation and time to prepare my own document in accordance to the guidelines why the hell should I have to pay a planner? It says that this will be covered in year 1.. but what happens after this?

This has the look of another GLAS scheme, over burdened by paper work and under-subscribed if predictions are correct.
This scheme has the look of being written for the pure breeders, their margins of safety on a scheme like this are already being met.. Michael O'Leary will do well from it..

I think the official documents will need to be scrutinised carefully; I hope we on boards can do that here and share opinions

Grueller

Have been thinking about this for a couple of days.
1. A large number of suckler farmers are exiting for dairy, drystock, rearing replacements or whatever
2. Many suckler men are facing large cuts in sfp
3. The country is picking up atm and government budgets will increase.

With these three things in mind I believe that any suckler man would be better inside this scheme as I think the payment will increase in the lifetime of the scheme. Anybody else agree?

Grueller

Have been thinking about this for a couple of days.
1. A large number of suckler farmers are exiting for dairy, drystock, rearing replacements or whatever
2. Many suckler men are facing large cuts in sfp
3. The country is picking up atm and government budgets will increase.

With these three things in mind I believe that any suckler man would be better inside this scheme as I think the payment will increase in the lifetime of the scheme. Anybody else agree?

Grueller

All well made points Figerty. Just think it is written more for the AI companies than anyone else. My last post also gives my opinion on why we should be in it.

Farmer

Bullocks wrote: »

Yup I can't see our black suckler going into the scheme . The money would be nice but they can **** off if they think I'll change to a 5 star herd of muscley , lacking in milk continentals and pretend that it's a great herd then . I thought the factories were saying that they didn't want these big carcase cattle either ?

Yeah, here's where they said it http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/questionable-exceptional-beef-grades-necessary-80-export-markets/

Angus and Hereford beef is walking off the shelves of the German supermarkets

Climate is getting wetter, there seems to be a new disease crisis every year so other factors like disease resistance and hardiness are also important, it takes alot of grain and fertilizer to fatten big cattle and stars don't always dictate the bottom dollar. This, and the unquestioned dairy expansion, seems to be Simon's "Bertie Bowl". Larry might not want to play there

blue5000

WTF do we need a planner for this?

I know a few lads being guinea pigs for gene Ireland. They are not very happy. A lot of middling cows now after years of using test ai bulls that never made the grade.
I think the hidden agenda here is to force us to use more ai in suckler herds, at present I think it's down to around 20% not sure on this though. AFAIK there is a lot more ai used in suckler herds west of the shannon. Stock bulls are simpler further east where herds are probably larger. The more cows a bull serves the more cost effective he is. A lot of ai bulls wouldn't have enough stars either.

I don't think we have a choice though, margins are so tight and sfp money is going to decline over the next few years.

Ms. Chanandler Bong

https://webapp.icbf.com/active-bull-list/beef-maternal
ICBF Replacement List

https://webapp.icbf.com/active-bull-list/beef-terminal
ICBF Terminal List

Website that allows you to enter search criteria within various parameters, such as stars, calving difficulty, breed, AI company, etc. It's set up to be ideally viewed on a phone more than a computer but it's not horrible to look at on the comp lol

On a note of caution though, I checked out the website for the crowd we'd use for AI here and there appears to be some differences between the list of bulls they have and the list on the ICBF page.

manjou

Looking at the active bull list only 118 bills have 4 stars or more over all breeds.Divide that into all the sucklers and you get a very large number. Think this is being used to make farmers use the star system to breed cattle.It took years to get the ebi up and running.Another case of taking a good idea and overcomplicte it. If you need a planner to do this dont know where you will get them there very busy doing other schemes

Sheep breeder

have just read this full post,and here is what i think.
a joke
first all the money wasted in derrypatrick herd on big fancy cows, the research is saying the black lim/fr cow is the best.
second every vet in ireland must be rubbing his hands with all the work he is going to get from calving these 24 month five star heifers and all the zip jobs from the 5 star bulls,
third the planners more jam for filling forms,
fourth the AI stations for all the money to be made from selling poor bulls.
fifth the pedigree man for producing more pampered bulls with 5 stars.

and the main looser ICBF when it all falls flat in a big heap of what the cow produces from behind. the figures are all wrong and whos to blame for this the research crowds and the Ai station selling poor bulls from the same choosen few breeders and the pedigree breeder selling such pampered stock with false figures,

the old suckler scheme done great work getting calves dehorned and meal feeding opened so many fellows eyes as how to improve the animal for sale,
and what did the fool of a minister do when he got in, cut the money

this new scheme is designed for so many outside the farm gate and not the farmer who will be the looser from day one.

Miname

Am I the only person who reckons this is a good set up. We as suckler farmers in general are so behind I both using and recording correct info that it will take years and years for any further advancement. This is just the kick up the arse it needed.

Grueller

Sheep breeder wrote: »

have just read this full post,and here is what i think.
a joke
first all the money wasted in derrypatrick herd on big fancy cows, the research is saying the black lim/fr cow is the best.
second every vet in ireland must be rubbing his hands with all the work he is going to get from calving these 24 month five star heifers and all the zip jobs from the 5 star bulls,
third the planners more jam for filling forms,
fourth the AI stations for all the money to be made from selling poor bulls.
fifth the pedigree man for producing more pampered bulls with 5 stars.

and the main looser ICBF when it all falls flat in a big heap of what the cow produces from behind. the figures are all wrong and whos to blame for this the research crowds and the Ai station selling poor bulls from the same choosen few breeders and the pedigree breeder selling such pampered stock with false figures,

the old suckler scheme done great work getting calves dehorned and meal feeding opened so many fellows eyes as how to improve the animal for sale,
and what did the fool of a minister do when he got in, cut the money

this new scheme is designed for so many outside the farm gate and not the farmer who will be the looser from day one.

I can't agree about the vet with the sections. We run about 80 sucklers and use 5 star bulls on the terminal index and haven't had a section in three years.
I for one will be joining the scheme because in this suckling game you need every extra euro you can get. The paperwork will be a little onerous until we get used to it but all these surveys are tick the box options and very user friendly imo. I agree as I have already stated that the ai companies will be the big winners but in our case we stand to gain up to €5000 from this scheme. That breaks down as €100 a week. Let it be two hours extra per week over the year that is €50 per hour. They will be the best paid two hours work I will do on the farm every week anyhow.

Charliebull

Miname wrote: »

Am I the only person who reckons this is a good set up. We as suckler farmers in general are so behind I both using and recording correct info that it will take years and years for any further advancement. This is just the kick up the arse it needed.

I tend to agree with you, my biggest gra with it, is the fact that those setting the stars are being run by the two biggest AI companies, they are not going to be setting my stock bulls stars to high,

In general it something that needs to be done to improve the suckler herd, maybe next year we might even get a list of the animals that have to be tested before they are let out

Western Pomise

Have not seen last weeks Journal but from reading posts on here this 95 euro scheme will not be too beneficial for a lot of suckler herds west of the Shannon which avg 10 cows or less.As one poster said what was wrong with the suckler welfare scheme which definitely tidied up a lot of fellas set ups re dehorning,proper weaning etc.People in Dept don't seem to realise that there are thousand of farmers who don't have 20 cows+

LivInt20

Miname wrote: »

Am I the only person who reckons this is a good set up. We as suckler farmers in general are so behind I both using and recording correct info that it will take years and years for any further advancement. This is just the kick up the arse it needed.

I think it is a great scheme and not difficult to complete all tasks.

Here on boards the loudest people seem to be the negative ones who like to blame everyone from AI companies to pedigree breeders for low margin in suckler farming.

However when a scheme comes along to improve breeding, quality and profit in suckler farming those complaining can't see the benefits of this scheme.

blue5000

Just quoting catreyn
6) Complete a carbon navigator: All applicants in the scheme must complete a carbon navigator by the end of October 2016 and in each subsequent year of the scheme. In year one, the carbon navigator must be completed with the support of an approved advisor, the cost of which will be covered by the Department. Following the completion in year one applicants must submit data annually around areas such as grazing length, fertilizer use and slurry spreading.

This requirement will account for 10% of the total payment.



Could this be done by the bordbia inspector? AFAIK they already do it, more effin duplication.

I wonder would it be worth using all 5 star maternal bulls on the whole herd for a few years? I reckon there will be a demand for these when the 'slow learners' cop on that they are being left behind in a few years. In my experience taking cattle to slaughter, there is very little difference (max €100) between cattle from a terminal sire and maternal sire. If the special sales for replacement 5 star heifers take off this €100 gap will be closed if there is a premium for them. I know this won't suit the ppl producing weanlings for export.

There isn't going to be enough lim x fr heifers to come from the dairy herd in future, all the dairymen around here are buying angus bulls for using on heifers first and then mopping up at the end of the breeding season.

tanko

LivInt20 wrote: »

I think it is a great scheme and not difficult to complete all tasks.

Here on boards the loudest people seem to be the negative ones who like to blame everyone from AI companies to pedigree breeders for low margin in suckler farming.

However when a scheme comes along to improve breeding, quality and profit in suckler farming those complaining can't see the benefits of this scheme.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if I remember correctly you run a business as an agricultural consultant. If so I can see why you think this scheme is so great. It's going to generate plenty of paperwork for consultants and dept officials anyway. The scheme hasn't even started, yet you've decided it's going to be a success already.

bogman_bass

blue5000 wrote: »

the cost of which will be covered by the Department.

My reading of that line is that the cost wont come out of the farmers pocket

Figerty

LivInt20 wrote: »

I think it is a great scheme and not difficult to complete all tasks.

Here on boards the loudest people seem to be the negative ones who like to blame everyone from AI companies to pedigree breeders for low margin in suckler farming.

However when a scheme comes along to improve breeding, quality and profit in suckler farming those complaining can't see the benefits of this scheme.

Time will tell if it's a great scheme.. It is however a scheme terms and conditions attached.
Once I see the word 'advisor' attached I get concerned.. consultants or advisors only bring costs and most of the time very little added value.
IF the scheme brings improvement in quality it will be on small scale; I don't think it's going to get the level of penetration required.
There are vested interests in this,, such as the AI companies, Pedigree Breeder and of course consultants/Advisors but lets wait and see the requirements first before passing judgement.
I'll probably be joining as I have AI on 12 cow, all of which are AI back bred for beef with 3 generations so it's probably easy to comply.

Sheep breeder

we run nearly all pure lim and char cows and breed to Ai as much as we can and are just afraid of the way icbf work out the stars for animals, and if a 5 star bull is used to serve the cows and when the calf arrives he is then only a 3 star will the first evaluation be used or the second as this is going to be a 6 year contract and if you do not comply will all the money have to be handed back that you have recieved,
the active bull list has the lim bull sympa on it from powerfull AI at 175 euros a straw cant see to many men using him to bull cross bred cows.

we try to produce what sells well as weanlings and do them well and breed our own replacements or buy good stock in to suit our system.

Miname

blue5000 wrote: »

Just quoting catreyn
6) Complete a carbon navigator: All applicants in the scheme must complete a carbon navigator by the end of October 2016 and in each subsequent year of the scheme. In year one, the carbon navigator must be completed with the support of an approved advisor, the cost of which will be covered by the Department. Following the completion in year one applicants must submit data annually around areas such as grazing length, fertilizer use and slurry spreading.

This requirement will account for 10% of the total payment.



Could this be done by the bordbia inspector? AFAIK they already do it, more effin duplication.

I wonder would it be worth using all 5 star maternal bulls on the whole herd for a few years? I reckon there will be a demand for these when the 'slow learners' cop on that they are being left behind in a few years. In my experience taking cattle to slaughter, there is very little difference (max €100) between cattle from a terminal sire and maternal sire. If the special sales for replacement 5 star heifers take off this €100 gap will be closed if there is a premium for them. I know this won't suit the ppl producing weanlings for export.

There isn't going to be enough lim x fr heifers to come from the dairy herd in future, all the dairymen around here are buying angus bulls for using on heifers first and then mopping up at the end of the breeding season.

There are Bulls out there with high stars in both maternal and terminal. I've a limo at home with 4.5 stars in both.

50HX

as released on agriland.ie today

6 requirements of the new Beef Data Genomics Programme
Share Tweet Email
Ciaran Moran May 5, 2015 0 Comment
The Department of Agriculture have recently released the requirements of the new Beef Data and Genomics Programme.

Requirement 1 – Calving details
Register all new born calves within 27 days of birth, provide sire number and complete survey relating to calving ease.

Requirement 2 – Surveys
Complete a range of surveys relating to the calves, cows and bulls in the applicant’s herd.

Requirement 3 – Genotyping
Genotype all of the animals specified by the ICBF. Each year, the number to be genotyped will be equivalent to 60% of the number of reference animals on an applicant’s holding in 2014.

Requirement 4 – Replacement strategy
Stock bull – Under the Beef Data and Genomics Programme at least one stock bull on the holding on June 30 2019 must be a bull that has been genotyped 4 or 5 star on either the Terminal or Replacement index and this, or a similar 4 or 5 star bull, must be retained on the holding until 30 June 2020.

Applicants are strongly advised to introduce 4 or 5 star bulls at the next replacement date to avoid compliance difficulties.

AI –When using AI, at least 80% of the AI used must be from 4 or 5 star bulls on the Terminal or Replacement index. This applies from 30th June 2016.

Leased bulls – Where it is the practice of the applicant to lease a bull, he/she must notify the Department by 30 June 2016 of his/her intention to do so during the course of the scheme. Specific conditions apply – see T&C’s.

Female beef replacements – Applicants will be required to ensure that a percentage of his/her heifers/eligible Suckler cows are genotyped females that are:

(i) 4 or 5 stars on the replacement index (see T&C’s for specific conditions).
(ii) at least 16 months old and (iii) born in 2013 or later.

The number of beef heifers/eligible suckler cows meeting these requirements on each holding on 31st October 2018 must be equivalent to 20% of the number of the applicant’s reference animals (established based on 2014 stocking levels) and on 31st October 2020 must be equivalent to 50% of the applicant’s reference animals.

Requirement 5 – Carbon Navigator
Applicants must complete a carbon navigator with an approved advisor before 31 October 2016 and provide data for it to be annually updated. This is a tool which estimates the potential green house gas reductions and financial savings that could be made on each farm.

Requirement 6 – Training
Applicants must attend a training course relating to this scheme before 31 October 2016.
Payment

Payment under the Beef Data and Genomics Programme will be made at the rate of €142.50 for each of the first 6.66 hectares of eligible forage area and €120 on the remaining eligible forage area.

The eligible hectares on which an applicant is entitled to claim will be equal to the number of calved cows on his/her holding in 2014 (known as reference animals) divided by a standard stocking rate of 1.5.

This is subject to a limit which is set by the eligible forage land declared by the applicant on his/her 2014 SPS application.

ellewood

Standard stocking rate of 1.5 !!
Max payment Why?

Farmer

ellewood wrote: »

Standard stocking rate of 1.5 !!
Max payment Why?

I think they needed to confuse the WTO, something about not being allowed pay per animal, so they multiplied the rate per head by 1.5, hence 120 per hA, then declared it an area based payment and finally stocked the hAs at 1.5 to get back to cows.!!!

It'd be a bit like converting kilometers to miles per hour to convince the guard you weren't travelling in km/h when he caught you speeding

Bodacious

Farmer wrote: »

I think they needed to confuse the WTO, something about not being allowed pay per animal, so they multiplied the rate per head by 1.5, hence 120 per hA, then declared it an area based payment and finally stocked the hAs at 1.5 to get back to cows.!!!

It'd be a bit like converting kilometers to miles per hour to convince the guard you weren't travelling in km/h when he caught you speeding

Talk about making it awkward FFS

Had less calved cows in 2014 too as was letting up heifers for 2015 ;-(

Grueller

Bodacious wrote: »

Talk about making it awkward FFS

Had less calved cows in 2014 too as was letting up heifers for 2015 ;-(

Thats actually better for you as you are obliged to keep less stock should anything happen, may have to test less and nothing to stop you expanding to 1.5 times your hectares in cows.
Edited to say you also may need less 4&5 star females as these are calculated on your reference year also from my reading of the details.

Limestone Cowboy

Bodacious wrote: »

Talk about making it awkward FFS

Had less calved cows in 2014 too as was letting up heifers for 2015 ;-(

Likewise on the cows. Can't make head nor tail of this scheme to be honest.

blue5000

Anyone know where I stand, I've been annihilated by TB since 2014, is there force mejure or whatever it;s called?

Mad4simmental

I'm 50% calved cows and 50% maiden heifers in 2014. Can I still get payed on the maidens but will only have to genotype a % of the calved cows?

Farmer

Grueller wrote: »

Thats actually better for you as you are obliged to keep less stock should anything happen, may have to test less and nothing to stop you expanding to 1.5 times your hectares in cows.
Edited to say you also may need less 4&5 star females as these are calculated on your reference year also from my reading of the details.

From 50HX's post quoting Agriland

"The eligible hectares on which an applicant is entitled to claim will be equal to the number of calved cows on his/her holding in 2014 (known as reference animals) divided by a standard stocking rate of 1.5.
"

So it looks like we're effectively maxed out at our 2014 rate