New suckler scheme on per hectare basis!!

Charliebull

ellewood wrote: »

Yea you would never find them again let alone get them back in, after leaving them out - that's the trouble with having 1000's of acres.
😆

Tis a bastard alright, let them out on a Monday and their in galway by Wednesday

LivInt20

Charliebull wrote: »

I've never had to house an animal in September yet ,
I'd doubt you did too, anytime from mid November to May would suit, I know it's only a six month window

Tags are being issued in September.

ellewood

LivInt20 wrote: »

Tags are being issued in September.

Thanks

Charliebull has no excuse now he has plenty of notice and he can start rounding them up now so

Charliebull

LivInt20 wrote: »

Tags are being issued in September.

Any word on turn around required,

Charliebull

ellewood wrote: »

Thanks

Charliebull has no excuse now he has plenty of notice and he can start rounding them up now so

They be in kilkenny by sept, you might tag mine would you

Bullocks

Charliebull wrote: »

They be in kilkenny by sept, you might tag mine would you

If I see any with your brand on them I'll lob a tag into them aswell .

ellewood

Charliebull wrote: »

They be in kilkenny by sept, you might tag mine would you

No bother at all, u can send on the cards as well so I know which to do I promise I won't load em all up and sell em on u - not that ya need the money anyways sher it's only a hobby for ya anyways....

Charliebull

ellewood wrote: »

No bother at all, u can send on the cards as well so I know which to do I promise I won't load em all up and sell em on u - not that ya need the money anyways sher it's only a hobby for ya anyways....

Christ is it not enough their your stealing my SFP, now you want my cattle too,

Bigbird1

I calved 10 cows in 2014,so is this the maximum number of cows ill get paid on over the next 6 years.even if i increase numbers at any stage

50HX

Bigbird1 wrote: »

I calved 10 cows in 2014,so is this the maximum number of cows ill get paid on over the next 6 years.even if i increase numbers at any stage

10 cows / 1.5 LU = 6.66 eligible HA

You'll get paid 6.66 x 142.50p/ha =949 yoyos

you get 120 p/ha on the remaining eligible HA which in your case is 0

based on eligible HA of the qualifying year (2014)

Bigbird1

50HX wrote: »

10 cows / 1.5 LU = 6.66 eligible HA

You'll get paid 6.66 x 142.50p/ha =949 yoyos

you get 120 p/ha on the remaining eligible HA which in your case is 0

based on eligible HA of the qualifying year (2014)

Thanks

Even tho we have 25 hectares

50HX

Even tho we have 25 hectares[/QUOTE]


Yep - that's my understanding of it anyway

it's a fairer calculation that way i think - spread the money around as many herds as possible thus gathering a larger sample size of the suckler population

the more i look at it the more i see the logic behind it (took a while i'll admit)

like all schemes not for everybody though

Figerty

Looks like the AI men will be laughing all the way to the Sperm back!:):D

Farrell

Figerty wrote: »

Looks like the AI men will be laughing all the way to the Sperm back!:):D

Allot of bulls aren't 4-5 star, which could mean allot of straws being unwanted

Limestone Cowboy

If you use a 5 star bull on a 2 star cow how many stars would her progeny have?

Kovu

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

If you use a 5 star bull on a 2 star cow how many stars would her progeny have?

Enough to go on Winning Streak.

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

If you use a 5 star bull on a 2 star cow how many stars would her progeny have?

I was talking to a teagasc beef man about similar question. He reckons 3.5 to 4 stars the progeny would be.

LivInt20

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

If you use a 5 star bull on a 2 star cow how many stars would her progeny have?

Take the €urostar values of the bull and cow, add together and divide by two.

This will give you the first €urostar valuation at date of birth.

If after the next evaluation the calf is in the top 40% of the national €urostar figures the the calf will be a four or five star. If in the top 60% the calf will be a three star.

The calf's €urostar values will move throughout it's life based on its own performance figures, the performance of his/her herd mates and all related progeny in the database.

After each evaluation, stars will be allocated based on what it's €urostar value is compared to the national herd.

KatyMac

I've just looked up the daddies of my 6 replacement/new heifers for this year and see that only 2 of them are 4 Star. This farming by numbers is a pain in the bum! What is a body supposed to do now?

Miname

LivInt20 wrote: »

Take the €urostar values of the bull and cow, add together and divide by two.

This will give you the first €urostar valuation at date of birth.

If after the next evaluation the calf is in the top 40% of the national €urostar figures the the calf will be a four or five star. If in the top 60% the calf will be a three star.

The calf's €urostar values will move throughout it's life based on its own performance figures, the performance of his/her herd mates and all related progeny in the database.

After each evaluation, stars will be allocated based on what it's €urostar value is compared to the national herd.

Are you sure on that or where did you get about the cow and bull and divide by two. I've 4.5 star heifers that came off cows with no star ratings and a five star bull.

LivInt20

Miname wrote: »

Are you sure on that or where did you get about the cow and bull and divide by two. I've 4.5 star heifers that came off cows with no star ratings and a five star bull.

Yes sure. That is the average. I always have worked out the €urostar value of a calf based on the above before it is published online.

(You can work back the way to get a €urostar value for the dam).

All animals will have a certain amount of information recorded in order to give a €urostar value. Items such as calving ease or weight or carcass conformation are likely to be recorded on various relations to your heifers to give them 4.5 stars.

It is not just the dam and sire details but a whole lot of information from various sources on thousands of animals.

LivInt20

KatyMac wrote: »

I've just looked up the daddies of my 6 replacement/new heifers for this year and see that only 2 of them are 4 Star. This farming by numbers is a pain in the bum! What is a body supposed to do now?

Be sure to use five star bulls on these heifers to improve your overall numbers.

Grueller

LivInt20 wrote: »

Take the €urostar values of the bull and cow, add together and divide by two.

This will give you the first €urostar valuation at date of birth.

If after the next evaluation the calf is in the top 40% of the national €urostar figures the the calf will be a four or five star. If in the top 60% the calf will be a three star.

The calf's €urostar values will move throughout it's life based on its own performance figures, the performance of his/her herd mates and all related progeny in the database.

After each evaluation, stars will be allocated based on what it's €urostar value is compared to the national herd.

Is this data based on the progeny from the cow? If so what about the calves that are exported? Do they count or are they out of the system?

LivInt20

Grueller wrote: »

Is this data based on the progeny from the cow? If so what about the calves that are exported? Do they count or are they out of the system?

Data comes from Irish factories, mart weights, farmer weights, scoring data, calving ease, docility recorded, etc.

If slaughtered in a foreign factory I don't think that is sent to the ICBF database, but I believe they are working on getting this information into the system.

Remember it is not just progeny from the dam that count towards a cows value. All relations in the database and records on these will count.

http://issuu.com/herdplus/docs/euro-star_system_explained

tomieen jones

LivInt20 wrote: »

Data comes from Irish factories, mart weights, farmer weights, scoring data, calving ease, docility recorded, etc.

If slaughtered in a foreign factory I don't think that is sent to the ICBF database, but I believe they are working on getting this information into the system.

Remember it is not just progeny from the dam that count towards a cows value. All relations in the database and records on these will count.

http://issuu.com/herdplus/docs/euro-star_system_explained

docility recording from owners of cattle !!!! Sure my cattle are very quite

tomieen jones

This whole system will encourage lads to give false information! Sure all mine are natural calving no difficulty atal ! Calving jacks will be a thing of the past

LivInt20

tomieen jones wrote: »

This whole system will encourage lads to give false information! Sure all mine are natural calving no difficulty atal ! Calving jacks will be a thing of the past

Well that's wonderful for you.

However if all your cows are recorded as needing no assistance then that data will be discounted and not used. The same applies for docility. The same also applies to unrealistic weight gains recorded.

So your data will have no influence on the overall scores, as it is either discounted altogether or has little influence in the databases thousands of records.

Rubbish in equals rubbish out, so if people want accurate €urostar figures they need to record accurate data.

Figerty

You seem to be well versed on the application of the data and level of the interpretation. Statistically speaking there is a margin of error in any date; at best it may be 5% but with cattle I would expect it to be way more.

At present it's the lack of transparency or where to find the mathematical model that drives the rating system that we are supposed to be working towards that is of concern. I'd like to see how the weightings apply and the different statistical modals

The idea that if cattle have been easy calved and reported as so can be discounted is nuts. I have 8 cows calved, all to AI, without any assistance from me. If information is being discounted then there has to be a credible system behind it.

Unrealistic weight gains can be verified by weighing....If there is a influence on cattle rating by telling the ICBF that they are hard calving or not docile then it's likely that there will be wide-scale rating them at a lesser value than is real. I doubt the ICBF system is sophisticated enough to judge that the value judgement is right or wrong. Given the discussion here about star ratings changing radically over time there appears to be a poor mathematical model

Most of us don't give one damn about the star system. Cattle buyers look at quality in front their eyes. That's probably going to change a bit by this scheme but by how much is the question. I'd still like to see how the rating statistics are compiled and verified before signing up for this scheme.

LivInt20

Figerty wrote: »

You seem to be well versed on the application of the data and level of the interpretation. Statistically speaking there is a margin of error in any date; at best it may be 5% but with cattle I would expect it to be way more.

At present it's the lack of transparency or where to find the mathematical model that drives the rating system that we are supposed to be working towards that is of concern. I'd like to see how the weightings apply and the different statistical modals

The idea that if cattle have been easy calved and reported as so can be discounted is nuts. I have 8 cows calved, all to AI, without any assistance from me. If information is being discounted then there has to be a credible system behind it.

Unrealistic weight gains can be verified by weighing....If there is a influence on cattle rating by telling the ICBF that they are hard calving or not docile then it's likely that there will be wide-scale rating them at a lesser value than is real. I doubt the ICBF system is sophisticated enough to judge that the value judgement is right or wrong. Given the discussion here about star ratings changing radically over time there appears to be a poor mathematical model

Most of us don't give one damn about the star system. Cattle buyers look at quality in front their eyes. That's probably going to change a bit by this scheme but by how much is the question. I'd still like to see how the rating statistics are compiled and verified before signing up for this scheme.

If you go back through the publications on ICBF.com you will follow the development of the ratings and weightings over time. This system and database is the most sophisticated in the world, no other country has this.

The dairy industry in Ireland is years ahead of beef with their EBI and genomics.

Genomics in beef will speed up the data analysis without having to wait for progeny results.

LivInt20

Figerty wrote: »

You seem to be well versed on the application of the data and level of the interpretation. Statistically speaking there is a margin of error in any date; at best it may be 5% but with cattle I would expect it to be way more.

At present it's the lack of transparency or where to find the mathematical model that drives the rating system that we are supposed to be working towards that is of concern. I'd like to see how the weightings apply and the different statistical modals

The idea that if cattle have been easy calved and reported as so can be discounted is nuts. I have 8 cows calved, all to AI, without any assistance from me. If information is being discounted then there has to be a credible system behind it.

Unrealistic weight gains can be verified by weighing....If there is a influence on cattle rating by telling the ICBF that they are hard calving or not docile then it's likely that there will be wide-scale rating them at a lesser value than is real. I doubt the ICBF system is sophisticated enough to judge that the value judgement is right or wrong. Given the discussion here about star ratings changing radically over time there appears to be a poor mathematical model

Most of us don't give one damn about the star system. Cattle buyers look at quality in front their eyes. That's probably going to change a bit by this scheme but by how much is the question. I'd still like to see how the rating statistics are compiled and verified before signing up for this scheme.

I'm not saying all easy calvings are discounted, but there has to be variation in data recording from farmers for it to be taken as true. Data comes from many sources including mart weighings.

In terms of unrealistic weight, there are parameters within which a weight for age has to be, so as to be included. eg 600kgs at 5 months??

tomieen jones

LivInt20 wrote: »

Well that's wonderful for you.

However if all your cows are recorded as needing no assistance then that data will be discounted and not used. The same applies for docility. The same also applies to unrealistic weight gains recorded.

So your data will have no influence on the overall scores, as it is either discounted altogether or has little influence in the databases thousands of records.

Rubbish in equals rubbish out, so if people want accurate €urostar figures they need to record accurate data.

Data will be discounted? On what grounds can I ask? Because my stock bull is not an easy Calver? who can prove this? Your talking moonshine!! This system in my opinion will be bad for ai stats and guys will be getting straws pulling calves and not recording Incase it affects their star rating thus the next guy will get caught with the same straws

LivInt20

tomieen jones wrote: »

Data will be discounted? On what grounds can I ask? Because my stock bull is not an easy Calver? who can prove this? Your talking moonshine!! This system in my opinion will be bad for ai stats and guys will be getting straws pulling calves and not recording Incase it affects their star rating thus the next guy will get caught with the same straws

Well thats your opinion.

I'm presume you are not entering the Beef Data and Genomics Programme so.

tomieen jones

LivInt20 wrote: »

Well thats your opinion.

I'm presume you are not entering the Beef Data and Genomics Programme so.

I won't be but my beef with the system is it encourages false statistics about bulls! Myself I prefer to judge a good bull on his legs hind and sack ! its all very well selecting straws for easy calving but if you have a few very difficult Calvings will it be recorded at the Risk of losing a star ¡! might be the star that costs you you're payment!!!! Of coarse i'm being very pessimistic as I know most if not all would be very honest forwarding data and stats

Bullocks

tomieen jones wrote: »

I won't be but my beef with the system is it encourages false statistics about bulls! Myself I prefer to judge a good bull on his legs hind and sack ! its all very well selecting straws for easy calving but if you have a few very difficult Calvings will it be recorded at the Risk of losing a star ¡! might be the star that costs you you're payment!!!! Of coarse i'm being very pessimistic as I know most if not all would be very honest forwarding data and stats

I won't be joining this scheme either , our stars wouldn't be brilliant as is and it's too much of a risk to have to hand back money if you don't meet the target at the end .
How do they tell how many kgs of milk the cows have ?

LivInt20

Bullocks wrote: »

I won't be joining this scheme either , our stars wouldn't be brilliant as is and it's too much of a risk to have to hand back money if you don't meet the target at the end .
How do they tell how many kgs of milk the cows have ?

By the weight of the calf compared to his/her herdmates.

Bullocks

LivInt20 wrote: »

By the weight of the calf compared to his/her herdmates.

How accurate would that be , do they make allowances within the breeds ?

LivInt20

New Q and A document on Dept website.

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/farmerschemespayments/beefgenomicsschemebeefdataprogramme/beefdataandgenomicsprogrammebdgp2015-2020/

Nettleman

LivInt20 wrote: »

New Q and A document on Dept website.

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/farmerschemespayments/beefgenomicsschemebeefdataprogramme/beefdataandgenomicsprogrammebdgp2015-2020/

Wheres the clear layout of COSTS (or do farmers costs not matter) which lads will incur..or is that a sucker punch to be delivered when the fishes are on the hook, and tied in for 6 years. If the cost side was given as much focus as the "so called" income side, that would give a fairer representation of this scheme to farmers.

I see that in this scheme, and others, department have now decided to pay farmers monies to agri consultants, for them to pass onto farmer...Why has this extra level of breauracy being created, and hows going to monitor it and regulate it?? Consultant goes burst, consultant does a runner, farmer gets short paid, delayed payments, now we have a situation where consultant can blame dept, and vise versa so farmers don't get paid. Surely this is an area of "Client accounts" regulation and should be covered, insured and audited by the same standards as solicitors, and I don't see anything about this in any of the documents either. More layers, more delays, more risks, more nonsence

tanko

If a farmer had 30 cows calved in 2014 he will need to have 18 eligible females over 16 months old available without repetition for genotyping every year for six years.
This will be easily done for the first year and maybe the second but where is the farmer going to get the animals for genotyping after that?
If this farmer operates a closed herd and sells five culls every year and replaces them with five heifers and sells the rest of the calves I can't see how this will work.
I hope I've got this wrong.

LivInt20

tanko wrote: »

If a farmer had 30 cows calved in 2014 he will need to have 18 eligible females over 16 months old available without repetition for genotyping every year for six years.
This will be easily done for the first year and maybe the second but where is the farmer going to get the animals for genotyping after that?
If this farmer operates a closed herd and sells five culls every year and replaces them with five heifers and sells the rest of the calves I can't see how this will work.
I hope I've got this wrong.

The calves will be tested.

Charliebull

LivInt20 wrote: »

The calves will be tested.

Bear with me as I have not had the time to read the T&C fully yet,

From reading posts above, are we saying that we have to test 60% of the number of cows calved in 2014 every year and in the 60% quota, we have to provide a new animal to test every year. when the cow numbers have run out they will then test the calves to make up the deficit, am I correct so far

If so have we dates confirmed when we will be able to sell bearing in mind tags arrive in September,can we sell after tagging, do we need to wait for results or confirmation of receipt of samples, what about weanlings going to September sales, will we be held

LivInt20

Charliebull wrote: »

Bear with me as I have not had the time to read the T&C fully yet,

From reading posts above, are we saying that we have to test 60% of the number of cows calved in 2014 every year and in the 60% quota, we have to provide a new animal to test every year. when the cow numbers have run out they will then test the calves to make up the deficit, am I correct so far

If so have we dates confirmed when we will be able to sell bearing in mind tags arrive in September,can we sell after tagging, do we need to wait for results or confirmation of receipt of samples, what about weanlings going to September sales, will we be held

ICBF will select the animals to be tested each year.

It will be 60% of cows calved in 2014.

Cows and stock bulls are likely to be first selected then on to heifers and calves.

You must retain calves for 5 months to get paid on that calf. Therefore if all cows, heifers and bulls are tested in the herd the calves can be tested before they are five months old.

ICBF will have five months to get a test from a calf and you will have to calve 60% of your cow numbers from 2014.

jay gatsby

Thanks for all the info Livint20, I know a lot of lads are not overly happy with the terms but it is great to be able to get answers to a lot of questions here.

I think we'll give it a go here anyway. I think there's pro's and con's but overall I think it is a move in the right direction.

Nettleman

I do admire this farm organisation for saying what needs to be said in relation to this scheme. (reference to farmer costs in this one)

http://icsaireland.ie/news/press-releases/863-conditions-of-beef-genomics-contract-unacceptable

kelslat

LivInt20 wrote: »

Well that's wonderful for you.

However if all your cows are recorded as needing no assistance then that data will be discounted and not used. The same applies for docility. The same also applies to unrealistic weight gains recorded.

So your data will have no influence on the overall scores, as it is either discounted altogether or has little influence in the databases thousands of records.

Rubbish in equals rubbish out, so if people want accurate €urostar figures they need to record accurate data.

All of my cows and heifers calved unassisted to a salers bull this year. If I tell the truth and put down this information will my data be discounted? That wouldn't be very fair.

LivInt20

kelslat wrote: »

All of my cows and heifers calved unassisted to a salers bull this year. If I tell the truth and put down this information will my data be discounted? That wouldn't be very fair.

No all you data won't be discounted.

kelslat

LivInt20 wrote: »

No all you data won't be discounted.

But they could discount the calving data when I put down that all cows calved unassisted.

tomieen jones

kelslat wrote: »

But they could discount the calving data when I put down that all cows calved unassisted.

no data can be discounted without very reasonable proof! Think he was trying to defend a system that is very flawed

smokey-fitz

This isnt a scheme its a contract for farmers to stay at suckling. You sign up your bound to it. 3 or 4 years down the line and the arse falls out of sucklers once again, you dont have many options. If you get out of sucklers, you have to pay back what you got. That could add up pretty quick for some lads. You wont be able to reduce stock either. Its a load of crap being honest.

Also if anyone got the terms and conditions and the application in the post today, have a look at the back were all the pelenties are. And any pelenties with this scheme can affect bps or the other way round.

Count Mondego

kelslat wrote: »

But they could discount the calving data when I put down that all cows calved unassisted.

Jesus, why would they. I haven't used a jack in 2 years so all of the calves get recorded as unassisted.