New suckler scheme on per hectare basis!!

kelslat

Count Mondego wrote: »

Jesus, why would they. I haven't used a jack in 2 years so all of the calves get recorded as unassisted.

It has been said in some of the earlier posts that if you submit that all your cows calved unassisted this figure might not appear to be truthful and your data may well be discounted.

Charliebull

Count Mondego wrote: »

Jesus, why would they. I haven't used a jack in 2 years so all of the calves get recorded as unassisted.

I think He was making reference to point 181 where data has to be varied or may be treated as bull ( and not 5 star)

LivInt20

Charliebull wrote: »

I think He was making reference to point 181 where data has to be varied or may be treated as bull ( and not 5 star)

Yes, it was a response to one post.

If somebody has no assisted calvings then there is no problem as long as data is entered as accurately as possible.

ICBF have a Data Quality Index for pedigree herds, which I expect to be expanded to commercial herds.

Nettleman

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/news/icsa-six-year-genomic-contract-is-too-limiting-330105.html

KatyMac

Just wondering about misadventure! The only cow to have trouble here for many years decided to try the impossible and calve uphill against a ditch. The calf's head was bent to such an angle that he suffocated. It wasn't the fault of either the bull used or the cow (unless you count stupidity!). The fault was mine as I wasn't with her enough, but how is that to be counted on a 'calving survey' that may effect star ratings in the future?

tomieen jones

KatyMac wrote: »

Just wondering about misadventure! The only cow to have trouble here for many years decided to try the impossible and calve uphill against a ditch. The calf's head was bent to such an angle that he suffocated. It wasn't the fault of either the bull used or the cow (unless you count stupidity!). The fault was mine as I wasn't with her enough, but how is that to be counted on a 'calving survey' that may effect star ratings in the future?

this is why I believe the system is so flawed and will encourage false data being provided which in turn will be actually worse for the whole suckler breed of Ireland
People will be afraid to submit true information about calving in fear they will be reduced in stars and affect payment

Toplink

Sorry lads, a pure greenhorn question here.

Where can I check the start rating of my fathers bull or cows?

tanko

Toplink wrote: »

Sorry lads, a pure greenhorn question here.

Where can I check the start rating of my fathers bull or cows?

You can put the Bulls tag number into the bull search on the icbf site.
If you want to check the cows out you'll have to give ICBF €60 for that privilege.

ganmo

KatyMac wrote: »

Just wondering about misadventure! The only cow to have trouble here for many years decided to try the impossible and calve uphill against a ditch. The calf's head was bent to such an angle that he suffocated. It wasn't the fault of either the bull used or the cow (unless you count stupidity!). The fault was mine as I wasn't with her enough, but how is that to be counted on a 'calving survey' that may effect star ratings in the future?

What you record is called the phenotype
Phenotype is made from genetics and the environment(your farm)

If related animals have consistent phenotype across different farms = genetics

If no consistent results = environment and no impact on star rating

KatyMac

Ok Ganmo, that makes sense, but I betcha a lot of people, like me, didn't know that and the argument about 'tidying' up the answers on a survey will still hold.

Bleating Lamb

One thing that has struck me about the 6 year buy in to this scheme....the Larry Goodmans of this world will have a very good idea how many cattle will be in the country in years to come....is that good for the farmers margin?????

ganmo

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

One thing that has struck me about the 6 year buy in to this scheme....the Larry Goodmans of this world will have a very good idea how many cattle will be in the country in years to come....is that good for the farmers margin?????

info is already out there

http://www.bordbia.ie/industry/events/SpeakerPresentations/2015/MeatProspects2015/Outlook%20for%20Beef%20-%20Joe%20Burke,%20Bord%20Bia.pdf

Farmer

I'm thinking they have a fair idea as it is.

Edit: beaten to it by ganmo with solid proof above

Anyways they'll be so delighted with all these cheap dairy carcases with light 'supermarket tray' sized steaks coming on stream that they'll think up some penalty to slap on all these 5 star animals

votuvant

Farmer wrote: »

Anyways they'll be so delighted with all these cheap dairy carcases with light 'supermarket tray' sized steaks coming on stream that they'll think up some penalty to slap on all these 5 star animals

I cant post a url but on Agriland they have a story that cattle numbers are set to be very high in two years time. Back to the same old problems me thinks.

Two years into the scheme people might have a serious problem and still have to stay in it for 4 more years. I cant see how this scheme is going to be worth subscribing to with the current terms. Any few quid you get will be very quickly wiped out when the prices fall again.

Bleating Lamb

ganmo wrote: »

info is already out there

http://www.bordbia.ie/industry/events/SpeakerPresentations/2015/MeatProspects2015/Outlook%20for%20Beef%20-%20Joe%20Burke,%20Bord%20Bia.pdf

While they have a fair idea for 2015,this will give them too much info till 2020.

Nettleman

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/new-suckler-scheme-to-address-absolute-chasm-between-top-and-bottom-herds-coveney/

Ms. Chanandler Bong

So how would one go about getting the cow and heifer star ratings for their herd from ICBF without signing up to HerdPlus or any other herd management program? I've read earlier on the thread that it costs €60 but not how to go about it.

dohc turbo2

catreyn wrote: »

So how would one go about getting the cow and heifer star ratings for their herd from ICBF without signing up to HerdPlus or any other herd management program? I've read earlier on the thread that it costs €60 but not how to go about it.

just google icbf , I joined couple of weeks ago and was just 20 for on offer http://www.icbf.com/

tanko

dohc turbo2 wrote: »

just google icbf , I joined couple of weeks ago and was just 20 for on offer http://www.icbf.com/

It has been €20 for the first year and €60 per year after that if you sign up to a direct debit for payment.

Nettleman

A lot of negative reaction to this in todays rag. A major rollback is only logical way forward, but with T&C already issued, and tight deadline, its unlikely. This scheme could (and should) fall flat on its face

Bullocks

Nettleman wrote: »

A lot of negative reaction to this in todays rag. A major rollback is only logical way forward, but with T&C already issued, and tight deadline, its unlikely. This scheme could (and should) fall flat on its face

Are you saying people should boycott it ?
I was talking to advisor yesterday and told him I probably won't bother but he was saying I would be mad not to as it isn't as bad as people think . So I'm i

Nettleman

Bullocks wrote: »

Are you saying people should boycott it ?
I was talking to advisor yesterday and told him I probably won't bother but he was saying I would be mad not to as it isn't as bad as people think . So I'm i

Every man should make his own call, but I wouldn't support it in current format, imo.. Ive already posted often on this thread with some of my views but I also think this scheme is bad for Irish beef farmers as a unit, in the long run, particularly handing over vast quantities of detailed information about their farms, how they run them to organisations not controlled by beef farmers, and there are far too many risks & costs to warrant it attractive. Don't forget, there are other sectors in irish agriculture who thrive on keeping their information to themselves, but the suckler man has to hand over the colour of his jocks to get a few miserable quid (net of costs+time+penalties).
As I said before, I have 50% of my females at 4* and above, so that's not my issue. In fact, If I looked at it selfishly, I could probably gain as I wont need to retain my 4 and 5 star bulls or heifers (keep and breed me 2 & 3 stars) and sell them to the panicking fools who join the scheme and cant achieve the targets:D:D. $$$$$$$$$

votuvant

Nettleman wrote: »

Every man should make his own call, but I wouldn't support it in current format, imo.

I'm with you on this and 80% of my replacements are 4* up atm but I think the conditions of this scheme are not worth it.

Imagine in year 6 something goes wrong and you don't meet the conditions you will have to pay back 5 years worth so in my case that would be over €12000. They can and will take it from your BPS without you having any choice in the matter. Absolutely nuts. If I want to make changes to my farm setup in 3 or 4 years I don't want to be limited by this. Anyone contemplating switching to dairying or other farm enterprise couldn't go for this in its current form.

dohc turbo2

tanko wrote: »

It has been €20 for the first year and €60 per year after that if you sign up to a direct debit for payment.

Good man didn't know that ,

Nettleman

votuvant wrote: »

I'm with you on this and 80% of my replacements are 4* up atm but I think the conditions of this scheme are not worth it.

Imagine in year 6 something goes wrong and you don't meet the conditions you will have to pay back 5 years worth so in my case that would be over €12000. They can and will take it from your BPS without you having any choice in the matter. Absolutely nuts. If I want to make changes to my farm setup in 3 or 4 years I don't want to be limited by this. Anyone contemplating switching to dairying or other farm enterprise couldn't go for this in its current form.

and its unlikely they will give you back the money you paid to have 60% of your herd DNA tested each year (using last year rate of €30 per beast). turns 12k into a much bigger number, and Im not sure if your factoring in potential cross compliance hit you might have to take on your SFP/BPS as well

annubis

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/new-suckler-scheme-to-address-absolute-chasm-between-top-and-bottom-herds-coveney/

ganmo

What happens if you get depopulated by tb during the 6 years?

LivInt20

ganmo wrote: »

What happens if you get depopulated by tb during the 6 years?

force majeure

LivInt20

Bullocks wrote: »

Are you saying people should boycott it ?
I was talking to advisor yesterday and told him I probably won't bother but he was saying I would be mad not to as it isn't as bad as people think . So I'm i

Alot of lads saying they won't join it, but wait and see they will be in.

The money over the six years will ensure they join, even if they are telling all that will listen now that they will not.

ICBF answer alot of questions in this document.

http://www.icbf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/BDGP-Q-A.pdf

Bullocks

LivInt20 wrote: »

Alot of lads saying they won't join it, but wait and see they will be in.

The money over the six years will ensure they join, even if they are telling all that will listen now that they will not.

ICBF answer alot of questions in this document.

http://www.icbf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/BDGP-Q-A.pdf

You're probably right even if they don't like it , it's hard to ignore the money out of the scheme .
I was definitely not going to enter but I'm going to apply before the deadline and have a look at what I'll need to do with our black cows and chat to the advisor then before going any further

blue5000

If anybody thinks they should have got a green application form in the post, and didn't, you'd need to contact the dept, deadline is 29th May.

Bullocks

blue5000 wrote: »

If anybody thinks they should have got a green application form in the post, and didn't, you'd need to contact the dept, deadline is 29th May.

Or it can be done on ag food aswell if you don't want to wait for the letter

Farmer

Bullocks wrote: »

...... I'm going to apply before the deadline and have a look at what I'll need to do with our black cows and chat to the advisor then before going any further

Can you opt out at that point?

Bullocks

Farmer wrote: »

Can you opt out at that point?

That's what the advisor said to do and he would go through it with me in better detail when he is finished up with the GLAS plans on the 22nd.
Don't take my word as gospel though . I suppose I can opt out until they have paid me any money , until then I won't worry too much

Mac Taylor

Had a look at the scheme over and will probably join, however I do expect that there will be changes to the criteria(one must live in hope) my main concerns are though:

1. Six year claw back( as a politician the minister should know a lot can change in week never mind a year)
2. The star ratings are at best unrealiable. I currently meet the minimum requirements, but here is the issue, my 3 best cows are 2.5 stars yet rear 1k weanlings (minimum meal - chxsm) and my worst 2 cows marked for culling are 5 stars
3. My bull a rocky son is only a 3 star bull yet when mated with a good cow is capable and of producing a 1k weanling, also he is easy calved and quite, I had no plans to cull him.

jd06

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Had a look at the scheme over and will probably join, however I do expect that there will be changes to the criteria(one must live in hope) my main concerns are though:

1. Six year claw back( as a politician the minister should know a lot can change in week never mind a year)
2. The star ratings are at best unrealiable. I currently meet the minimum requirements, but here is the issue, my 3 best cows are 2.5 stars yet rear 1k weanlings (minimum meal - chxsm) and my worst 2 cows marked for culling are 5 stars
3. My bull a rocky son is only a 3 star bull yet when mated with a good cow is capable and of producing a 1k weanling, also he is easy calved and quite, I had no plans to cull him.

What are the min requirements

jd06

jd06 wrote: »

What are the min requirements

Sorry just seen them on a previous post

votuvant

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Had a look at the scheme over and will probably join, however I do expect that there will be changes to the criteria(one must live in hope) my main concerns are though:

1. Six year claw back( as a politician the minister should know a lot can change in week never mind a year)
2. The star ratings are at best unrealiable. I currently meet the minimum requirements, but here is the issue, my 3 best cows are 2.5 stars yet rear 1k weanlings (minimum meal - chxsm) and my worst 2 cows marked for culling are 5 stars
3. My bull a rocky son is only a 3 star bull yet when mated with a good cow is capable and of producing a 1k weanling, also he is easy calved and quite, I had no plans to cull him.

In the same boat as regard cows. some of my best ones that produce the goods year after year are low ratings while two I had earmarked for culling this year are 5*. I may keep them now even though they are not performing.

There is a letter in this weeks journal I could have wrote. Anything with cf52 breeding is really badly rated. I have three cows bred from him that easily produce a top weanling year after year and have a CI of under a year. If that's not a proven cow I don't know what is but they will never go up in the ratings because of the sire

Wooly Admirer

There's too many short sighted suckler farmers in this country obsessed with talking about their 1 cow that produced a unbelievable calf - and oh my God she's only a one star. Many of them forget the other cows in their herds...

The suckler industry is in a sad state because of this short sighted crap. Luckily there are people in important positions that can make decisions to try and improve the long term outlook for the Irish suckler industry.

There'll be great cows that are 1 Star, there'll be ****e cows that are 5 Star. However! ON AVERAGE across IRELAND 5 Star will be more profitable than 1 Star. This is the focus of the scheme.

How could anyone possibly design a national scheme to cater for everyones opinions on there 'favourite cow'. A scheme has to look at the potential benefit across every cow in the country.

Those who don't join are foolish. Reminds me of the guys advising not to apply for the FWM & TAMS grants - 'you'll do it cheaper without the grant'. They ended up doing SFA and the those of us who applied for the grants ended up with top class facilities and not only got the grant on equipment, but got paid for our labour also!

My advice, tune out the naysayers and apply to whatever you can get.....

High bike

Wooly Admirer wrote: »

There's too many short sighted suckler farmers in this country obsessed with talking about their 1 cow that produced a unbelievable calf - and oh my God she's only a one star. Many of them forget the other cows in their herds...

The suckler industry is in a sad state because of this short sighted crap. Luckily there are people in important positions that can make decisions to try and improve the long term outlook for the Irish suckler industry.

There'll be great cows that are 1 Star, there'll be ****e cows that are 5 Star. However! ON AVERAGE across IRELAND 5 Star will be more profitable than 1 Star. This is the focus of the scheme.

How could anyone possibly design a national scheme to cater for everyones opinions on there 'favourite cow'. A scheme has to look at the potential benefit across every cow in the country.

Those who don't join are foolish. Reminds me of the guys advising not to apply for the FWM & TAMS grants - 'you'll do it cheaper without the grant'. They ended up doing SFA and the those of us who applied for the grants ended up with top class facilities and not only got the grant on equipment, but got paid for our labour also!

My advice, tune out the naysayers and apply to whatever you can get.....

I hear what your saying Wooly but at the end of the day who knows a mans cows better than himself,so are we to cull cows that we know are performing and keep the ones that are not just because icbf have the star ratings aresways.How is this going to improve the suckler herd?

Farrell

Is allot of the bulls ratings come from ancestry & progeny, but any progeny exported as livestock is lost to the system.
This is probably the same for cows.

So 2 weanling bulls born in the spring on the same day are brought to the mart in October, calf 1 sells for €1000 off cow A & bull X & is exported, while calf 2 off cow D & bull Y sells for €750, but is slaughtered at 16 months in Ireland.
ICBF will have figures for calf 1 up until sale, but calf 2 for all his life, hopefully they'll soon get info on exported stock too.
It's not the best system, but it's the system we have, there will be some losses (short term only) with long term gains (hopefully)

tomieen jones

Wooly Admirer wrote: »

There's too many short sighted suckler farmers in this country obsessed with talking about their 1 cow that produced a unbelievable calf - and oh my God she's only a one star. Many of them forget the other cows in their herds...

The suckler industry is in a sad state because of this short sighted crap. Luckily there are people in important positions that can make decisions to try and improve the long term outlook for the Irish suckler industry.

There'll be great cows that are 1 Star, there'll be ****e cows that are 5 Star. However! ON AVERAGE across IRELAND 5 Star will be more profitable than 1 Star. This is the focus of the scheme.

How could anyone possibly design a national scheme to cater for everyones opinions on there 'favourite cow'. A scheme has to look at the potential benefit across every cow in the country.

Those who don't join are foolish. Reminds me of the guys advising not to apply for the FWM & TAMS grants - 'you'll do it cheaper without the grant'. They ended up doing SFA and the those of us who applied for the grants ended up with top class facilities and not only got the grant on equipment, but got paid for our labour also!

My advice, tune out the naysayers and apply to whatever you can get.....

Great example of 5 star bull

LivInt20

Wooly Admirer wrote: »

There's too many short sighted suckler farmers in this country obsessed with talking about their 1 cow that produced a unbelievable calf - and oh my God she's only a one star. Many of them forget the other cows in their herds...

The suckler industry is in a sad state because of this short sighted crap. Luckily there are people in important positions that can make decisions to try and improve the long term outlook for the Irish suckler industry.

There'll be great cows that are 1 Star, there'll be ****e cows that are 5 Star. However! ON AVERAGE across IRELAND 5 Star will be more profitable than 1 Star. This is the focus of the scheme.

How could anyone possibly design a national scheme to cater for everyones opinions on there 'favourite cow'. A scheme has to look at the potential benefit across every cow in the country.

Those who don't join are foolish. Reminds me of the guys advising not to apply for the FWM & TAMS grants - 'you'll do it cheaper without the grant'. They ended up doing SFA and the those of us who applied for the grants ended up with top class facilities and not only got the grant on equipment, but got paid for our labour also!

My advice, tune out the naysayers and apply to whatever you can get.....

Well said.

I'm starting to think it would be better if half the farmers giving out about the scheme stayed out.

If only 17,000 farmers entered the scheme, then the money paid on each cow could be doubled in the future.

Nettleman

LivInt20 wrote: »

Well said.

I'm starting to think it would be better if half the farmers giving out about the scheme stayed out.

If only 17,000 farmers entered the scheme, then the money paid on each cow could be doubled in the future.

You should have gone to this meeting and repeated that to them-see how youd get on

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/frustration-at-suckler-scheme-meeting-181195/

LivInt20

Nettleman wrote: »

You should have gone to this meeting and repeated that to them-see how youd get on

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/frustration-at-suckler-scheme-meeting-181195/

I was there.

IFA men and politicians making political statements and not understanding the scheme at all.

Nettleman

LivInt20 wrote: »

I was there.

IFA men and politicians making political statements and not understanding the scheme at all.

So why didn't you bore them with the tripe you've been posting here for the last fortnight about this waste of EU money

LivInt20

Nettleman wrote: »

So why didn't you bore them with the tripe you've been posting here for the last fortnight about this waste of EU money

Couldn't be arsed. Sat back laughing at it all.

You still not applying?

votuvant

Wooly Admirer wrote: »

The suckler industry is in a sad state because of this short sighted crap. Luckily there are people in important positions that can make decisions to try and improve the long term outlook for the Irish suckler industry......

I don't disagree with you but my point is that this scheme is excluding a lot of cows that are excluded because of incomplete data and incomplete data is bad data.

Wooly Admirer wrote: »

My advice, tune out the naysayers and apply to whatever you can get.....

I don't think that I'm a naysayer and if farmers cant point out what they see as problems with a scheme without being labelled naysayers than maybe the next scheme that should be put in place is to contract Lely to see if they can design a robotic suckler farmer who has no opinion and does what it's told.

RobinBanks

I havent read the requirements for this scheme but when they talk about 4 or 5 star cows. Is this on for maternal rating? Say for example some of my cows are 4 start for maternal and 1 star for terminal does she qualify? and what about the cows that is 1 star for maternal and 4 for terminal?

annubis

RobinBanks wrote: »

I havent read the requirements for this scheme but when they talk about 4 or 5 star cows. Is this on for maternal rating? Say for example some of my cows are 4 start for maternal and 1 star for terminal does she qualify? and what about the cows that is 1 star for maternal and 4 for terminal?

4 or 5 star in either maternal or terminal is fine as far as i know