New suckler scheme on per hectare basis!!

LivInt20

annubis wrote: »

4 or 5 star in either maternal or terminal is fine as far as i know

For cows or heifers it is 4 or 5 star on Maternal only, either within or across breeds.

For Bulls it can be either Maternal or Terminal.

ganmo

LivInt20 wrote: »

For cows or heifers it is 4 or 5 star on Maternal only, either within or across breeds.

For Bulls it can be either Maternal or Terminal.

Now that's stupid! How can a breeder breed 4/5 star bulls if he's only allowed keep maternal type animals

Bellview

ganmo wrote: »

Now that's stupid! How can a breeder breed 4/5 star bulls if he's only allowed keep maternal type animals

agreed... I never understand how ICBF & Teagasc come up with some of the crazy logic, would be good if they spent some time with farmers to understand and see what really happens rather than playing with a spreadsheet that kicks out different star values every 3 to 6 months I agree with logic but as usual the application is chronic badly thought out... typical of civil servants

Limestone Cowboy

ganmo wrote: »

Now that's stupid! How can a breeder breed 4/5 star bulls if he's only allowed keep maternal type animals

There are plenty of bulls rated 4-5 stars on both. My stock bull is 4.5 star terminal and 4 star maternal.

Bodacious

I keep 5 cows for an elderly neighbour .. Had him in scheme this year but will not continue in 2015 as training day will be a non runner .. All other measures we could do together but I'd say he'd draw the line at going into a classroom for E400 at his age

mayota

Info meeting tonight in Tuam at 8.30. Ard Ri hotel.

Kovu

Bodacious wrote: »

I keep 5 cows for an elderly neighbour .. Had him in scheme this year but will not continue in 2015 as training day will be a non runner .. All other measures we could do together but I'd say he'd draw the line at going into a classroom for E400 at his age

The costs can be recouped on it though can't they? I was sure I read that somewhere....

I'm undecided on how I feel about it. It's a great way to raise the quality of suckler cattle across the board but I feel like they're trying to do too much too soon with the timeframe provided.
There's also plenty of farmers out there producing cracking calves off cows that may only be one/two stars but have been bred selectively by farmers to have the traits needed to suit their own style of farming. These farmers are going to be very stuck for replacements if their cows won't breed the 4/5 starred ones needed and will have to jeopardise a closed herd if they buy in.

Also we always used bulls suitable and proven to breed export style calves, be interesting to see how the 4/5 star bulls compare.....won't be much use to us if we're getting the grant money but losing on the calves!

Farrell

Bodacious wrote: »

I keep 5 cows for an elderly neighbour .. Had him in scheme this year but will not continue in 2015 as training day will be a non runner .. All other measures we could do together but I'd say he'd draw the line at going into a classroom for E400 at his age

Could you go on his behalf, like a good neighbour

High bike

Kovu wrote: »

The costs can be recouped on it though can't they? I was sure I read that somewhere....

I'm undecided on how I feel about it. It's a great way to raise the quality of suckler cattle across the board but I feel like they're trying to do too much too soon with the timeframe provided.
There's also plenty of farmers out there producing cracking calves off cows that may only be one/two stars but have been bred selectively by farmers to have the traits needed to suit their own style of farming. These farmers are going to be very stuck for replacements if their cows won't breed the 4/5 starred ones needed and will have to jeopardise a closed herd if they buy in.

Also we always used bulls suitable and proven to breed export style calves, be interesting to see how the 4/5 star bulls compare.....won't be much use to us if we're getting the grant money but losing on the calves!

true and correct

Bodacious

Farrell wrote: »

Could you go on his behalf, like a good neighbour

he not bothered about the money but I just feel its a waste not to be in these things.


I could bring my ole lad and make him sign the sheet

Miname

This scheme while good in its own right is starting to be very one sided. I was talking to a breeder who puts everything they have into buying the best of the best cows he can afford. Most of these were bought from British and French herds, the issue is now nearly all their progeny have stupidly low star ratings because they are from imports. If all the breeders push for 4-5 star animals they will have to use what's here and what's proven, it could leave our national herd with a very limited gene pool with no incentive for anyone to go abroad to purchase new lines.

Farrell

Miname wrote: »

This scheme while good in its own right is starting to be very one sided. I was talking to a breeder who puts everything they have into buying the best of the best cows he can afford. Most of these were bought from British and French herds, the issue is now nearly all their progeny have stupidly low star ratings because they are from imports. If all the breeders push for 4-5 star animals they will have to use what's here and what's proven, it could leave our national herd with a very limited gene pool with no incentive for anyone to go abroad to purchase new lines.

That bit puzzles me, top pedigree bulls from france are not recognised here until they're no longer available.
You'd be thinking it'd be the opposite

Miname

Farrell wrote: »

That bit puzzles me, top pedigree bulls from france are not recognised here until they're no longer available.
You'd be thinking it'd be the opposite

Not sure about the Bulls but he's imported nearly all his cows and they have no figures. This lad keeps serious stock.

tanko

Miname wrote: »

Not sure about the Bulls but he's imported nearly all his cows and they have no figures. This lad keeps serious stock.

I really wonder do ICBF have a clue what they're at. As an example Bulls such as Milbrook Dartagnan (MBP), Millbrook Tanko (TKO) and Navarin (NVI) are three super well proven bulls in my opinion but according to Icbf none of them are even four star Bulls on either the terminal or maternal indexes.
I'm sure there are other examples also.
The methods they use to calculate their figures need to change and soon.
If this scheme goes ahead as it is at the moment the country will be full of narrow arsed cows that won't be fit to calve a worthwhile calf.

Farrell

tanko wrote: »

I really wonder do ICBF have a clue what they're at. As an example Bulls such as Milbrook Dartagnan (MBP), Millbrook Tanko (TKO) and Navarin (NVI) are three super well proven bulls in my opinion but according to Icbf none of them are even four star Bulls on either the terminal or maternal indexes.
I'm sure there are other examples also.
The methods they use to calculate their figures need to change and soon.
If this scheme goes ahead as it is at the moment the country will be full of narrow arsed cows that won't be fit to calve a worthwhile calf.

Agree with you.
But is it not a percentage of the cows must be 4-5 star, but 1 of your bulls/AI must be.
looking at PG they're pushing Gurka as the next big thing, but he's ineligible

tanko

Farrell wrote: »

Agree with you.
But is it not a percentage of the cows must be 4-5 star, but 1 of your bulls/AI must be.
looking at PG they're pushing Gurka as the next big thing, but he's ineligible

If you use Ai, 80% of the straws you use must be from 4/5 star bulls on the maternal or terminal index.
By 2020 50% of a farmers cows and heifers must be 4/5 star on the maternal index.
Hopefully between the IFA and the breed societies some of them will get changes made to the way these figures are calculated.

votuvant

tanko wrote: »

If you use Ai, 80% of the straws you use must be from 4/5 star bulls on the maternal or terminal index.
By 2020 50% of a farmers cows and heifers must be 4/5 star on the maternal index.
Hopefully between the IFA and the breed societies some of them will get changes made to the way these figures are calculated.

Is it 50% of all your cows or just the reference cows?

sheeper

Anyone know the make up of the board of icbf

Kovu

sheeper wrote: »

Anyone know the make up of the board of icbf

This?

tanko

votuvant wrote: »

Is it 50% of all your cows or just the reference cows?

I think its 50% of the number of cows you have in 2014 must be 4/5 star cows and heifers over 16 months old by 2020.

Kovu

tanko wrote: »

I think its 50% of the number of cows you have in 2014 must be 4/5 star cows and heifers over 16 months old by 2020.

The 80% of 4/5 star bulls is a bit of a sickener. My ERE calves And as it's technically not far off topic, anybody seen calves off Tardif D'Hontoir? Only lad apart from VMP I might consider using.

sheeper

As in who's on it an who they represent

Kovu

sheeper wrote: »

As in who's on it an who they represent

This is from the link I'd posted.
There are more members & shareholders too, mostly Breed Societies & Milk Recording Members (co-ops)

Board of Directors

Chairman
Mr John O’Sullivan, Farmer, (IHFA)

Vice-Chairman
Mr Michael Doran, Farmer, (IFA)

Members

Dr Dave Beehan, Chief Livestock Inspector, (DAFM)
Mr Patrick Kelly (Progressive Genetics)
Dr Pat Mulvehill, Chief Executive (Munster AI)
Dr Ger Ryan, General Manager (Dovea Genetics)
Mr Tim Fitzgerald, Farmer, (ICMSA)
Mr Vincent Gorman, Farmer, (Progressive Genetics)
Mr Tom Wilson, Farmer, (ICMSA)
Mr Kevin Kinsella, Director of Livestock (IFA)
Mr Henry Burns, Farmer, (IFA)
Mr Richard Whelan, Farmer, (IHFA)
Mr Martin Ryan, Farmer, (Beef Herdbooks)
Mr James Lynch, Farmer, (Munster AI)
Mr Paddy Ryan, Farmer, (Munster AI)
Mr Kevin Keirsey, Farmer, (IFA)
Company Secretary

Mr John Carty, Inspector, (DAFM)

sheeper

That's some list of lads
AI stations selling seman making up 6/14 seats

Kovu

sheeper wrote: »

That's some list of lads
AI stations selling seman making up 6/14 seats

There's more but I didn't paste them all. More here - http://www.icbf.com/?page_id=338

sheeper

That's an even more depressing list lol

Farrell

tanko wrote: »

I think its 50% of the number of cows you have in 2014 must be 4/5 star cows and heifers over 16 months old by 2020.

This is do-able
If a farmer had 10 cows in 2014 he has to make sure 5/6 in 2020 qualify, if s/he keeps culling the worst & replaced with 4/5 they're on the money.
Even to buy/have a bull by 2020 that is 4/5 star is enough.
It's allot trickier with AI, unless Gene Ireland

annubis

Kovu wrote: »

The 80% of 4/5 star bulls is a bit of a sickener. My ERE calves And as it's technically not far off topic, anybody seen calves off Tardif D'Hontoir? Only lad apart from VMP I might consider using.

bought 2 lovely pb non registered ere heifers there a few months ago, they are off good cows and should make nice cows themselves, feck all stars though

annubis

Farrell wrote: »

This is do-able
If a farmer had 10 cows in 2014 he has to make sure 5/6 in 2020 qualify, if s/he keeps culling the worst & replaced with 4/5 they're on the money.
Even to buy/have a bull by 2020 that is 4/5 star is enough.
It's allot trickier with AI, unless Gene Ireland

just to get this straight, half your cow numbers have to be 4 or 5 star on maternal currently when you enter the scheme or is it that half of them have to be 4 or 5 star by a certain stage of the scheme?

LivInt20

tanko wrote: »

I really wonder do ICBF have a clue what they're at. As an example Bulls such as Milbrook Dartagnan (MBP), Millbrook Tanko (TKO) and Navarin (NVI) are three super well proven bulls in my opinion but according to Icbf none of them are even four star Bulls on either the terminal or maternal indexes.
I'm sure there are other examples also.
The methods they use to calculate their figures need to change and soon.
If this scheme goes ahead as it is at the moment the country will be full of narrow arsed cows that won't be fit to calve a worthwhile calf.

The reason some of these bulls don't qualify is because they have bad maternal traits. The Milk and Fertility in the national suckler herd is going down while terminal traits are going up. This is why we have a national calving interval of over 400 days.

For example TKO is -8 kgs for milk. A great bull to breed show cattle but as a maternal sire not good enough.

Again MBP is -9.5 kgs for milk.

The reliability is high on these two bulls which means there is alot of data recorded.

The data leading to the milk figure would come directly from weanling weights, be these from mart recorded weights or farmer recorded weights.

The whole idea of the scheme is to use more maternal bulls and improve the milk and fertility in the national suckler herd.

LivInt20

Kovu wrote: »

The 80% of 4/5 star bulls is a bit of a sickener. My ERE calves And as it's technically not far off topic, anybody seen calves off Tardif D'Hontoir? Only lad apart from VMP I might consider using.

ERE has a calving difficulty of 17.8% which is why he has only 1/2 a star.

It's bulls like this that are not suitable to the suckler farmer and leading to extended calving intervals and reduced calves per cow per year.

LivInt20

Do the genetic indexes work?

Here is some back up figures.

http://www.icbf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/IST_validation_25022015.pdf

LivInt20

annubis wrote: »

just to get this straight, half your cow numbers have to be 4 or 5 star on maternal currently when you enter the scheme or is it that half of them have to be 4 or 5 star by a certain stage of the scheme?

Half your 2014 number of cows calved have to be 4/5 star by 2020.

This can include heifers over 16 mths and cows.

annubis

LivInt20 wrote: »

ERE has a calving difficulty of 17.8% which is why he has only 1/2 a star.

It's bulls like this that are not suitable to the suckler farmer and leading to extended calving intervals and reduced calves per cow per year.

was the problem with this bull that initially when he nearly 5 star for everything he was used on alot of heifers causing calving issues which pushed his figures the other way ? just from my own experience had 3 or 4 calves by him and didnt pull any

LivInt20

annubis wrote: »

was the problem with this bull that initially when he nearly 5 star for everything he was used on alot of heifers causing calving issues which pushed his figures the other way ? just from my own experience had 3 or 4 calves by him and didnt pull any

There's 2920 calving difficulty records on this bull and 98% reliability so I wouldn't expect that heifers are throwing the figures.

Kovu

annubis wrote: »

was the problem with this bull that initially when he nearly 5 star for everything he was used on alot of heifers causing calving issues which pushed his figures the other way ? just from my own experience had 3 or 4 calves by him and didnt pull any

He was from an easy calving line and the men in the know said to go by his back breeding and was marketed as an easy calving bull the first year.

Cue lots of sections and problems and his figures rocketed. I don't think they should be half as bad, but he should not have been promoted as easy calving with no figures behind him. He's clearly a mature cow only bull. We've used him numerous times and only section we had was on a cow that had been sectioned previously because, surprise surprise, we had been told he was easy calving :rolleyes:

votuvant

LivInt20 wrote: »

Half your 2014 number of cows calved have to be 4/5 star by 2020.

This can include heifers over 16 mths and cows.

You know this might not be as bad as I first thought after all. As long as you are able to keep half of the ones you know are producing the goods you can work on improving things index wise on the rest.

I'd like a bit more flexibility on improving existing cows figures though. I know everyone has a grá for their own cows but when you have the proof of a cow performing year after year that should count for something.

tim04750

A question that I can't find any clarification on, maybe I'm not reading T's & C's right
I can see the requirement for stock bull stars are valid for the duration of the scheme if he has stars at the time of entry to the scheme, but......
are the star ratings for replacement heifers at the time of joining the herd valid for the duration of the scheme ?
or will they fall outside the requirements of the scheme if their ratings decline prior to requirement deadlines within the scheme ? - due to falling stars of either their sire or dam.
I see a problem if your replacement heifers are shedding stars and thereby fall outside scheme requirements as the scheme progresses

sheeper

But the prob is that the cows receiving the high material traits are 9 times out of 10 not feeding their own calves !
So when we all chase a maternal rating that is incorrect we are just falling further down the rabbit hole

tomieen jones

How are maternal traits measured? Weight of offspring at slaughter? not many have weighing scales that I know for recording weight gains before weaning so these records that they have are probably a result of the ration feed for fattening! I'm not confident of these statistics improving the national suckler herd ! calving ease also is far from accurate at the moment and this scheme will further encourage false data being submitted as we will fear recording difficult births will cost the bull a star and a payment! I hope the system is reviewed! to me its set up to benefit AI stations at the moment and as mentioned new blood lines from other countries are not recognised which is totally ludicrous as the aim of this system was to improve the over all genetics of suckler herds in Ireland

ganmo

tomieen jones wrote: »

How are maternal traits measured? Weight of offspring at slaughter? not many have weighing scales that I know for recording weight gains before weaning so these records that they have are probably a result of the ration feed for fattening! I'm not confident of these statistics improving the national suckler herd ! calving ease also is far from accurate at the moment and this scheme will further encourage false data being submitted as we will fear recording difficult births will cost the bull a star and a payment! I hope the system is reviewed! to me its set up to benefit AI stations at the moment and as mentioned new blood lines from other countries are not recognised which is totally ludicrous as the aim of this system was to improve the over all genetics of suckler herds in Ireland

I don't know the ins and outs of what goes into each trait, but the aim of having a breeding organisation like icbf is to gather lots of data, some accurate but lots not, but due to the massive volume of measurements they become accurate(statictcs mumbojumbo)

tomieen jones

ganmo wrote: »

I don't know the ins and outs of what goes into each trait, but the aim of having a breeding organisation like icbf is to gather lots of data, some accurate but lots not, but due to the massive volume of measurements they become accurate(statictcs mumbojumbo)

but only if the massive volume of measurements are accurate in the first instance! Very little of the maternal stats like milkiness are accurate as few of the stats are from weaning weights without creep feed!

Limestone Cowboy

I have some older bought in cows with no sire recorded and all have 5 or 6 calves details on my last suckler cow report. These cows have no stars at all and I have no way off getting the sire number to put in for them. Will icbf be rectifying this does anyone know. I thought the info on their progeny at this stage would be enough to give the some sort of a star rating.

Nettleman

More negative reaction in tuam last night too I hear....this thing has been sprung on people, delayed release date and short application closure in the hope to rally as many farmers down the chute for a 6 year toasting.....some seems to be coping on...have taken another look at AI catalogues and they are not ready for this demand either with one and two star bulls straws which they will continue to flog instead of withdrawing them

Nettleman

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

I have some older bought in cows with no sire recorded and all have 5 or 6 calves details on my last suckler cow report. These cows have no stars at all and I have no way off getting the sire number to put in for them. Will icbf be rectifying this does anyone know. I thought the info on their progeny at this stage would be enough to give the some sort of a star rating.

+1. I have a mix of both, one with no sire who is 4.5 star apparently, and others with no sire and no ratings at all.

tomieen jones

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

I have some older bought in cows with no sire recorded and all have 5 or 6 calves details on my last suckler cow report. These cows have no stars at all and I have no way off getting the sire number to put in for them. Will icbf be rectifying this does anyone know. I thought the info on their progeny at this stages would be enough to give the some sort of a star rating.

they will advise you cull these and buy in 4/5 star AI replacements ! My best on paper is a purebred Angus cow has very little milk! She has 4.5 maternal ! She is being culled this year and some of the crossbreda are milkiest and 1 star! My own opinion on this scheme is what id get on payments from the scheme I'd lose at the factory and at the end of the scheme be left with a paper perfect herd and many years work getting back to where I want to be

Limestone Cowboy

tomieen jones wrote: »

they will advise you cull these and buy in 4/5 star AI replacements ! My best on paper is a purebred Angus cow has very little milk! She has 4.5 maternal ! She is being culled this year and some of the crossbreda are milkiest and 1 star! My own opinion on this scheme is what id get on payments from the scheme I'd lose at the factory

I have enough 4 or 5 star one for 2020 as it is so it doesn't really matter but it does show that maybe the scheme is a bit premature in ways.

skoger

Farrell wrote: »

Agree with you.
But is it not a percentage of the cows must be 4-5 star, but 1 of your bulls/AI must be.
looking at PG they're pushing Gurka as the next big thing, but he's ineligible

If you look at their catalogue's breeding advice ( https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14706668/PGBeef2015.pdf ) the SIM replacement bull is the 1 star ZBF. Farmers need to be getting better advice from the AI companies for this scheme

ganmo

tomieen jones wrote: »

but only if the massive volume of measurements are accurate in the first instance! Very little of the maternal stats like milkiness are accurate as few of the stats are from weaning weights without creep feed!

They are going to get the most accurate info with all the geno typing that's gonna happen.

But as far as your argument about some farmers feeding meal...some calves get sick it all gets accounted for in the environment section of the phenotype so will not be considered part of the genetics of the animal and their relations

Kovu

Got Herdplus this evening, interesting that one of our top cows has a Missing Sire and consistently breeds very average calves. She's also the only cow with HO breeding behind her.

Others we knew well were going to be high stars, incl one marked for replacement about five seconds after she was born this year.
I'd forgotten that calving ability paid a part, the cow we had that was sectioned twice is chronic compared to a sister of hers :pac: That's what I get for being so honest!

I've been put forward by Dad to explain it all to a few older neighbours. Awesome, that's sure to be fun.