New suckler scheme on per hectare basis!!

TITANIUM.

Not great on the old technology here. Will that herd plus thing tell me the star ratings of the cow's /heifers and if so how do I get it? Is it like an app or do you log onto a website or what?

Kovu

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Not great on the old technology here. Will that herd plus thing tell me the star ratings of the cow's /heifers and if so how do I get it? Is it like an app or do you log onto a website or what?

You have to pay €60, either by card (if you have your password from when the Beef Genomics Scheme started) or by direct Debit. You can download the form here and post it off to ICBF, Highfield House, Bandon, Co.Cork.

It will show you the stars of ALL animals in your herd, male/female, cows & calves.

TITANIUM.

Kovu wrote: »

You have to pay €60, either by card (if you have your password from when the Beef Genomics Scheme started) or by direct Debit. You can download the form here and post it off to ICBF, Highfield House, Bandon, Co.Cork.

It will show you the stars of ALL animals in your herd, male/female, cows & calves.

Fair play to you. Sounds well worth it for €60. Twill be interesting to see how they rate the cow's.

High bike

Or you can wait and the Dept will send em to you supposedly?

votuvant

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Fair play to you. Sounds well worth it for €60. Twill be interesting to see how they rate the cow's.

There was an offer of €20 in year one when I signed up. It might still be available

votuvant

ganmo wrote: »

They are going to get the most accurate info with all the geno typing that's gonna happen.

But as far as your argument about some farmers feeding meal...some calves get sick it all gets accounted for in the environment section of the phenotype so will not be considered part of the genetics of the animal and their relations

Does anyone's genomic tested cows from last year show up as being tested in the geno coloumn on icbf?

None of the ones I tested show up on it.

High bike

votuvant wrote: »

There was an offer of €20 in year one when I signed up. It might still be available

that offer is gone now,it's 60e to join

tomieen jones

High bike wrote: »

that offer is gone now,it's 60e to join

surprise surprise as its kinda necessary to join for this scheme is it not?

LivInt20

tomieen jones wrote: »

surprise surprise as its kinda necessary to join for this scheme is it not?

Surprise surprise it is not!

Kovu

tomieen jones wrote: »

surprise surprise as its kinda necessary to join for this scheme is it not?

Dept are going to send out cow stars are they not?

annubis

Kovu wrote: »

Dept are going to send out cow stars are they not?

they will but with dead line for applying at end of month you might already be signed up when you realise none of your cows fit the criteria

LivInt20

annubis wrote: »

they will but with dead line for applying at end of month you might already be signed up when you realise none of your cows fit the criteria

Quote from ICBF

"Q5. It will not be possible for me to meet the replacement index requirements of 20% 4 and 5 star replacement females by 2018 and 50% by 2020.

This is incorrect. Analysis undertaken by ICBF of the 2014 program (based on 35k herds involved in the 2014 program) has indicated that, some 30% of herds are already compliant with the 2020 replacement female requirement and 52% are compliant with the 2018 requirement."

Kovu

LivInt20 wrote: »

Quote from ICBF

"Q5. It will not be possible for me to meet the replacement index requirements of 20% 4 and 5 star replacement females by 2018 and 50% by 2020.

This is incorrect. Analysis undertaken by ICBF of the 2014 program (based on 35k herds involved in the 2014 program) has indicated that, some 30% of herds are already compliant with the 2020 replacement female requirement and 52% are compliant with the 2018 requirement."

Are we told if that 52% is including the 30% i.e. not separate herd figures?

annubis

LivInt20 wrote: »

Quote from ICBF

"Q5. It will not be possible for me to meet the replacement index requirements of 20% 4 and 5 star replacement females by 2018 and 50% by 2020.

This is incorrect. Analysis undertaken by ICBF of the 2014 program (based on 35k herds involved in the 2014 program) has indicated that, some 30% of herds are already compliant with the 2020 replacement female requirement and 52% are compliant with the 2018 requirement."

they might be compliant but its only their young stock thats making them so, if an eligible female has to be born from 2013 onwards wont that rule out all the older cows, it would literally be first calvers and weanlings or thats what it looks like

Programme applicants are required to ensure that a percentage of their heifers/eligible suckler cows
(rounded to the nearest animal) are genotyped females that are:
(i) 4 or 5 stars on the replacement index (on a within breed or on a cross breed basis) at the time of
purchase (for heifers brought into the herd) or at the time of genotyping (for those replacements bred
within the herd). Where a non-genotyped replacement heifer is purchased, this animal must be
subsequently genotyped and confirmed 4 or 5 stars on the replacement index (on a within or an
across breed basis) before being deemed eligible for the Programme.
(ii) at least 16 months old and;
(iii) born in 2013 or later.
The number of heifers/eligible suckler cows meeting these requirements on each holding on 31
st
October
2018 must be equivalent to 20% of the number of the applicant’s reference animals (advised to
applicants upon acceptance into the Programme), and on 31
st
October 2020 must be equivalent to 50% of
the number of the applicant’s reference animals

Bellview

Kovu wrote: »

Are we told if that 52% is including the 30% i.e. not separate herd figures?

all ICBF numbers carry a caveat though. the reliability is too low, then when the stars move they will state that the reliability is now higher mumbo jumbo

I checked on my ped angus last night and currently on paper I meet % but when I look at the cows detail, the scheme falls apart. There are cows with 2 & 3 stars that are breeding some of the best calves in the yard while I have 4 cows that are 4+ stars who are breeding rubbish & being culled (along with their daughters)... If I play forward the cows ages & replacements I can hit the 4/5 stars in the timeframe but I will rubbish cattle by 2020.

looking at what I have seen so far the costs & headaches out weight any benefit and I will stay out... least I can continue to breed ped cattle that are selling and focus on dairy folks rather than ICBF

whelan2

not joining here either, think they will have to revisit the scheme

Bellview

whelan2 wrote: »

not joining here either, think they will have to revisit the scheme

would be interesting if only approx 10,000 apply what will happen. my father in law applied without reading the penalties throughly and he is working on withdrawing now... will be interesting how many more will apply on the headline payment and only realise the detail when they are in the middle of what currenly appears to be a mess created by Teagasc & ICBF. My fear is that in 4 or 5 years time we will see the 'maps' tyoe penalties hitting beef farmers.... I still struggle to understand why coveney & DOA allowed penalise farmers who used DOA maps... must be only business where retrospective penalties can be applied

I would like to see ICSA, IFA & Breed soc's recommend a complete boycott and then allow common sense get into the scheme... the gov have done a U turn on water so they could surely do it for a few beef cattle

wiggy123

From what I can see, your better in than out--as the scheme will be changed if no's are low..and like most new schemes there will be teething problems, so all them conditions/time frames will not be fully functional...

Bellview

wiggy123 wrote: »

From what I can see, your better in than out--as the scheme will be changed if no's are low..and like most new schemes there will be teething problems, so all them conditions/time frames will not be fully functional...

Fair point but if no's are high then there is no reason to change. After what the dept did to farmers over incorrect maps that were supplied by dept then I would expect that the dept will penalise to justify their roles.

LivInt20

More info from ICBF

http://www.icbf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/ICBF_BDGP_200515.pdf

Bellview

LivInt20 wrote: »

More info from ICBF

http://www.icbf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/ICBF_BDGP_200515.pdf

thanks. Looking at it though its another load of waffle from ICBF. Taking slides 8 & 9 on the graph it makes the assumption that the high star heifer is the best. Pity they did not spend time speaking to actual farmers

Today my herd meets the criteria set out but when I review my herd with real facts of what each cow breeds & what her offspring sells for the scheme falls apart.
if I followed what ICBF recommend I would be keeping the cows that this year bred pb bulls that made up the lower average prices and selling the mothers & future sisters of the cows that bred the better cattle... some of these cows happen to be 2 & 3 star from the ICBF random number generator

as my granny always used to say I never saw paper refuse ink... ICBF still believe in this saying

sorry one good point is every cow should have a calf every year... but not sure how the stars fixes this

Nettleman

Bellview wrote: »

thanks. Looking at it though its another load of waffle from ICBF. Taking slides 8 & 9 on the graph it makes the assumption that the high star heifer is the best. Pity they did not spend time speaking to actual farmers

Today my herd meets the criteria set out but when I review my herd with real facts of what each cow breeds & what her offspring sells for the scheme falls apart.
if I followed what ICBF recommend I would be keeping the cows that this year bred pb bulls that made up the lower average prices and selling the mothers & future sisters of the cows that bred the better cattle... some of these cows happen to be 2 & 3 star from the ICBF random number generator

as my granny always used to say I never saw paper refuse ink... ICBF still believe in this saying

sorry one good point is every cow should have a calf every year... but not sure how the stars fixes this

If this ICBF propaganda takes hold, in a few years, it will force a drop in the market price for your top female progeny as buyers who are currently paying good prices wont buy these cattle from your 1 star cows any more so the cows will be depopulated, exports grade calves will disappear and ICBF will have the power to dictate the (supply & demand) market for beef cattle at the stroke of a pen. Fellas wont want to export weanings either cos the killing stats wont be factored in and cow Eurostar value could fall, and she may have to be culled.

In relation to EU being blamed for 6 years duration of this scheme, I have to keep reminding myself that it was the Minister who presided over the CAP negotiations during Irelands EU presidency which put all this new cap together-does he think we all forget he was in front of the cameras congratulating himself on brokering the new CAP deal. No point blaming Europe now

http://www.eu2013.ie/news/news-items/20130626post-agricapagreement-pr/

GoodMan55985

On the Beef Geonomics scheme, my father has the herd number but would not be on for attending training course. Can I attend on his behalf for this? Also say if heardnumber transferred to me in years to come during the six years would there be any hassle. Also had 10 cows calved last year to be in the scheme do we need 10 cows calved each of the 6 years?

GoodMan55985

GoodMan55985 wrote: »

On the Beef Geonomics scheme, my father has the herd number but would not be on for attending training course. Can I attend on his behalf for this? Also say if heardnumber transferred to me in years to come during the six years would there be any hassle. Also had 10 cows calved last year to be in the scheme do we need 10 cows calved each of the 6 years?

would anyone know on this as deadline is next friday. Just want to be sure on my queries before applying. Thanks

tanko

GoodMan55985 wrote: »

On the Beef Geonomics scheme, my father has the herd number but would not be on for attending training course. Can I attend on his behalf for this? Also say if heardnumber transferred to me in years to come during the six years would there be any hassle. Also had 10 cows calved last year to be in the scheme do we need 10 cows calved each of the 6 years?

No problem transferring the herd number as long as you continue with the scheme yourself.
Basically you will need at least 6 cows calved every year.
I don't know if you can attend the training course instead of him.

Sheep breeder

this scheme proves we have a very poor minister for ag and his advisor and the sec general are not from farming back ground with such a poorly constructed scheme with the terms and conditions.
also you can now see why wickam cleared out,
the suckler cow has being the life blood of the small farmer on poorer quality
land and Ai was a big part of the system in the past, but now after this minister who cut the money for the first suckler scheme that improved the way the weanling was presented for sale which was a big improvement,

what this minister does not seem to understand is most suckler men are always trying to improve their stock quality and take great pride in getting weanlings sold for export which has helped the country in hard times,

as for icbf and the Ai station they want to take over the breeding of every suckler cow and not the owner of the cow with the pie in sky star system,

thank god enda gave our minister the defence job and showed what he thinks of the suckler/ small farmer in the west and all over ireland.

and where are the Ifa now, no word from there reps on here about how they are going to mount pickets on ag house etc. are stupid me they only care about the dairy man and fck the suckler man, not one word from the new president.

danjoe

Would I be correct in saying that with a supposedly reduction of 20% of the suckler herd over the last 2 years and the implementation of this scheme,going forward with the rules that you have to have 50% of your herd 4 & 5 star in 4.5 years time, will this make young cows and replacements ridiculously expensive for a measly 60-65 euro after costs
Even though stock that are exported are not accounted for on icbf data and nothing about the farmer that produces animals for terminal traits /carcass wgts.
My opinion be it right or wrong, this scheme could destroy the suckler business in Irl with a poorly thought out scheme,you will not progress in agriculture when you put the fear factor into schemeswith endless penalties rather than drawing up one that incentives breeding quality on all traits

tanko

The role of the IFA in this scheme is interesting. Simon coveney issued a
press release last Monday saying that the board of ICBF gave its "unanimous endorsement to the scheme".
The IFA livestock chairman Henry Burns along with three other members of the IFA sit on the board of ICBF.
Yet the IFA is running around the country organising meetings critisizing the scheme after apparently giving the scheme it's backing.
According to page 17 of the journal here are some of Henry Burns quotes,
"The 60% genomic sampling is excessive"
"The scheme is frightening people"
"Money should not be clawed back if a person decides to get out of suclkling in two or three years time"

Andy Gray

Nettleman wrote:

If this ICBF propaganda takes hold, in a few years, it will force a drop in the market price for your top female progeny as buyers who are currently paying good prices wont buy these cattle from your 1 star cows any more so the cows will be depopulated, exports grade calves will disappear and ICBF will have the power to dictate the (supply & demand) market for beef cattle at the stroke of a pen. Fellas wont want to export weanings either cos the killing stats wont be factored in and cow Eurostar value could fall, and she may have to be culled.

Nettleman wrote:

In relation to EU being blamed for 6 years duration of this scheme, I have to keep reminding myself that it was the Minister who presided over the CAP negotiations during Irelands EU presidency which put all this new cap together-does he think we all forget he was in front of the cameras congratulating himself on brokering the new CAP deal. No point blaming Europe now

I'm starting to get a sneaking suspicion that A. You're a rather stupid individual and B. You've got some serious vested interest in knocking this scheme and ICBF.

greysides

Andy Gray wrote: »

I'm starting to get a sneaking suspicion that A. You're a rather stupid individual and B. You've got some serious vested interest in knocking this scheme and ICBF.

[mod] Argue the point by all means, but, keep personal comments out it[/mod]

bogman_bass

whelan2 wrote: »

not joining here either, think they will have to revisit the scheme

What do people want when they say revisit it? I get a sneaking suspicion that people expect money for nothing. That ain't gonna happen.

Count Mondego

bogman_bass wrote: »

What do people want when they say revisit it? I get a sneaking suspicion that people expect money for nothing. That ain't gonna happen.

That's fair enough, but the replacement of a high percentage of your stock with ICBF 4 star cows will be a massive expensive for the majority of entrants, far outweighing the few hundred quid most will be getting each year. This would be fine if 4 star cows were consistently producing the best stock, not in my case. We have teagasc telling us for the last 10 years that the best suckler cow is from a dairy cross and now doing a complete 180 on it.

I understand that the end goal is to improve the reliability associated with ICBF star rating, but plenty of lads will be out of pocket over the next few years trying to achieve that for them.

PatrickJoseph

I put this on suckler scheme thread too: I see ICSA is holding a couple of meetings about the scheme in Munster this week - 7.30pm tonight at Sixmilebridge Mart and 8pm tomorrow night in Viking Hotel in Waterford. Saw on their website that they met Dept officials on Fri so might have some more up to date info maybe

http://icsaireland.ie/news/upcoming-events/875-meeting-at-sixmilebridge-mart-on-monday-night-re-bdgp

Farmer

Donegal also

"Donegal ICSA will host a meeting open to all farmers on Tuesday next, May 26th, at 8.30pm in Friel's, Raphoe"

john mayo 10

I know its required to have 4 and 5 star replacements but do you need to use a 4 or 5 star A1bull if planning on selling weanlings in the back end of the year.

Bellview

bogman_bass wrote: »

What do people want when they say revisit it? I get a sneaking suspicion that people expect money for nothing. That ain't gonna happen.

rumour going round that 3.5 stars will now get in.. part I don't get is the 4 star bull at time of purchase. This goes against stock bulls off stock bulls. I can confirm that my fella was bought as 3 star and is now 4 as his sire was moved into ai after time on the land... on day of purchase is too strict as does not should allow for movement in stars over time especially for a bull that is doing well

annubis

Bellview wrote: »

rumour going round that 3.5 stars will now get in.. part I don't get is the 4 star bull at time of purchase. This goes against stock bulls off stock bulls. I can confirm that my fella was bought as 3 star and is now 4 as his sire was moved into ai after time on the land... on day of purchase is too strict as does not should allow for movement in stars over time especially for a bull that is doing well

i think i would be fairly surprised if they changed any of the requirements unless numbers applying are very low

farawaygrass

Bellview wrote: »

rumour going round that 3.5 stars will now get in.. part I don't get is the 4 star bull at time of purchase. This goes against stock bulls off stock bulls. I can confirm that my fella was bought as 3 star and is now 4 as his sire was moved into ai after time on the land... on day of purchase is too strict as does not should allow for movement in stars over time especially for a bull that is doing well

Exactly my concerns too. I made a good few phone calls today and finally onto a lovely lady in icbf and she said that 3.5 star bulls will be ok as they will be rounded up. Also that they will send you out some sort of a letter after you join telling you what you have and what you have to get to reach the t&c's of the scheme.

Farmer

farawaygrass wrote: »

....... Also that they will send you out some sort of a letter after you join telling you what you have and what you have to get to reach the t&c's of the scheme.

It would be nice to have ready access to that information and more time for information meetings and research before signing up to this 6 year irrevocable contract, rather than throwing it all out when we were up to our eyes trying to tease out the vagrancies of the equally complicated Glas scheme. The farming organizations are doing their best but are just getting round to meetings themselves this week

coolshannagh28

farawaygrass wrote: »

Exactly my concerns too. I made a good few phone calls today and finally onto a lovely lady in icbf and she said that 3.5 star bulls will be ok as they will be rounded up. Also that they will send you out some sort of a letter after you join telling you what you have and what you have to get to reach the t&c's of the scheme.

+1 I am sure I spoke to that lady and her helpful knowledgeable nature is to be commended!

50HX

Irish Farmers Journal / Beef / NewsNo penalties for early withdrawal from suckler scheme

The Department of Agriculture advises all farmers to apply, see what it means for their herd and then make their final decision.
With Friday’s closing date for the Beef Genomics and Data Programme (BGDP) fast approaching, the Department of Agriculture is encouraging farmers who are unsure about participation to apply, see what the requirements of the programme are and then make their final decision.

Speaking at last Friday’s ICBF beef and dairy industry meeting, John Carty, Department of Agriculture, told attendees there will be no penalties applied to farmers who apply and then decide that the scheme is not for them. This view was echoed by Brendan Gleeson Department of Agriculture in last Thursday night’s Around the Editor's Table online broadcast.

John said that once applicants who do not wish to proceed with the scheme withdraw before this year’s payment is made (target of October-December), there will be no financial penalties applied.

Replying to a query on the requirement for applicants to cover tagging and genotyping costs, if undertaken before an applicant decides to withdraw from the programme, the ICBF’s Andrew Cromie said that it is very unlikely that farmers will be expected to cover these costs.

“We anticipate that farmers unsure about proceeding will make up their mind when they receive their initial statement from the Department outlining the requirements for their herd. If there are some farmers who genotype and then decide to withdraw, we expect this to be a small number and will more than likely cover these costs”.

Cromie said that a final decision on tagging costs incurred by applicants leaving the programme will be made in the coming weeks and that this will be clarified to farmers when sending out tags for animals selected for genotyping in 2015.

dh1985

If running a stock bull he must be born in 2013 at the earliest also. Not going to apply for this scheme now as its the final straw in a badly thought out scheme. Cant see much out of it, if anything after everything is taken into account No point changing a five star bull to another just for the grant and risk the possibility of unproven progeny. Think I will stick with whats working for me as is
I wonder do ai bulls have to be born after 2013!

farawaygrass

dh1985 wrote: »

If running a stock bull he must be born in 2013 at the earliest also.

Where you get that info? Don't think that's right

jd06

50HX wrote: »

Irish Farmers Journal / Beef / NewsNo penalties for early withdrawal from suckler scheme

The Department of Agriculture advises all farmers to apply, see what it means for their herd and then make their final decision.
With Friday’s closing date for the Beef Genomics and Data Programme (BGDP) fast approaching, the Department of Agriculture is encouraging farmers who are unsure about participation to apply, see what the requirements of the programme are and then make their final decision.

Speaking at last Friday’s ICBF beef and dairy industry meeting, John Carty, Department of Agriculture, told attendees there will be no penalties applied to farmers who apply and then decide that the scheme is not for them. This view was echoed by Brendan Gleeson Department of Agriculture in last Thursday night’s Around the Editor's Table online broadcast.

John said that once applicants who do not wish to proceed with the scheme withdraw before this year’s payment is made (target of October-December), there will be no financial penalties applied.

Replying to a query on the requirement for applicants to cover tagging and genotyping costs, if undertaken before an applicant decides to withdraw from the programme, the ICBF’s Andrew Cromie said that it is very unlikely that farmers will be expected to cover these costs.

“We anticipate that farmers unsure about proceeding will make up their mind when they receive their initial statement from the Department outlining the requirements for their herd. If there are some farmers who genotype and then decide to withdraw, we expect this to be a small number and will more than likely cover these costs”.

Cromie said that a final decision on tagging costs incurred by applicants leaving the programme will be made in the coming weeks and that this will be clarified to farmers when sending out tags for animals selected for genotyping in 2015.

So does this mean if you sign up for 1year you still can't get out in year 3 4or5

dh1985

farawaygrass wrote: »

Where you get that info? Don't think that's right

Teagasc advisor.

50HX

jd06 wrote: »

So does this mean if you sign up for 1year you still can't get out in year 3 4or5

my understanding after being at the group Teagasc discussion today is that you can opt out in year 1 before the payment is made
after year 1 payment is made you are locked in

Bigbird1

I heard from a neighbour there this evening that if there are drystock on the farm 60% of those too have to be genotyped. Anyone hear anything on this ?

Miname

I heard today the reason for the six year lockdown is they reckon too many lads would pull out when the requirements to have set percent of 5 stars would have to be met.

50HX

Bigbird1 wrote: »

I heard from a neighbour there this evening that if there are drystock on the farm 60% of those too have to be genotyped. Anyone hear anything on this ?

Yeah t'would make sense - they will run out of genotyping the animals from the ref year fairly quick so they will be testing the calves (male&female) fairly quickly.

all in all it might be no bad thing as long as they don't go too far to the left on it and we loose all the milky type suck that was advocated for so long.

don't see this happening as that quickly though as it's a siz year plan and only 20% need to meet the requirements by 11/18

Bigbird1

50HX wrote: »

Yeah t'would make sense - they will run out of genotyping the animals from the ref year fairly quick so they will be testing the calves (male&female) fairly quickly.

all in all it might be no bad thing as long as they don't go too far to the left on it and we loose all the milky type suck that was advocated for so long.

don't see this happening as that quickly though as it's a siz year plan and only 20% need to meet the requirements by 11/18

I thought it would be 60% of each new crop of calves each year,maybe a few cows.

Neighbour reckons. Eg. If we buy in 20 stores each year then 12 of these will now have to be genotyped all costing money taken from the suckler payment.