Dealing with tradesmen

Jellybaby1

Mod, Good question Jellybaby, but I think it deserves its own thread so I am creating a new one


Not just ladies only but am resurrecting this old thread as I need someone please to talk to me about the subject of 'women dealing with tradesmen'. I usually have to deal with these situations as himself is rarely here when they come. My last adventure into the world of getting work done on the house frightened me. I have always taken the best advice, i.e. get a few prices, don't pay until work is done, etc., mainly due to being let down so many times before. The last job I got done I had agreed a price. The guy kept finding problems making the cost rise more than once until what started out to be around €800-€900 was costing €1400 and he started recommending a job which would cost €4000 so I realised we had to part company and soon. I agreed a final cost but although he had originally agreed to take a bank draft from me, when it came to pay him he wanted cash only. I said no but he kept insisting as he had to 'pay the men their wages'. I argued for a while but got nowhere. His body language became a little frightening to me and eventually I said ok but not until the job was finished. I could see his workmen were not very clean workers and the place was in a terrible state and they didn't clean up after themselves. The boss kept on at me and began to invade my personal space which made me step back from him a couple of times. to stop him spitting into my face when he spoke. Eventually they finished and I paid him off. Now I need another job done and I have to start it all over again. Any words of wisdom that I don't already know?

looksee

I can sympathise with this Jellybaby, been there, done that. And its easy enough for people to say 'you should have said this/done that' etc but at the time it can be very difficult.

I am a very practical person who can recognise what needs to be done and if it is being well done, but this just seems to have an even more negative effect on the kind of workmen who listen to what you want, do what they want, then charge whatever they want.

Now I have got to the stage where I have found a guy who works as a project manager/builder - though he does very little of the building himself, he gets tradesmen he knows on the job - he sorts everything, in the long run is no more expensive and I reckon has saved me money, and doesn't mind taking on smaller jobs. Heaven! He is local, pleasant, reliable and we know his mum!

I know it is the wimp's way out, but have you a young fella with a bit of attitude who could at least hang around and look protective while you are sorting your man? It is totally true that too many of these fellas have no respect for women. The more you stand up for yourself the more aggressive they get. Life is getting too short for that kind of agro.

I can offer you all the theories about getting things written down, getting references etc, but you know yourself how little that can be worth. Its the smaller jobs that are the most difficult. It is crazy that you have consumer protection for almost every aspect of everything you buy, but work on your biggest and most valuable asset, your house, is totally at the mercy of chancers.

Jellybaby1

I definitely have a young fella with lots of attitude but he'd be at work so wouldn't be around. This has happened so often that I tend to put jobs off for months or years because I just can't face it again.

Another guy years ago did a job, I had said I would want a receipt which he said 'of course, no problem', but when the time came for the receipt he tore off a scrap of paper from his notebook and scribbled on it, and I mean scribbled and he literally threw it on the kitchen table. It was illegible. Saints preserve me from these...............people! (I really wanted to use a different word there!).

Wayyyy back in the 80's I got a guy to paint the house. The job was almost finished and it was near a bank holiday weekend. He was heading off with his pals for the weekend and he needed some of the money to cover the work he had already done. I said ok and I part-paid him retaining enough to get the job finished. He left his brushes, overalls, a pair of work trousers and his ladder in my shed, which made me feel a little secure, but he disappeared and didn't return to finish the job. A month later a friend arrived to say my painter was painting a house near her. I strode over to her estate and had it out with him on the footpath. He tried to 'shush' me and I said his customer should know what she is dealing with. He apologised giving all sorts of excuses but I still had an unfinished job, and yes he left me with a half painted gable end, the top half, which we couldn't reach, and yes, his ladder was too short to reach.

On one occasion I got a couple of men to clean my gutters. They were bringing down buckets which they said were 'full of muck'. I asked to see it but they wouldn't let me see inside the buckets. Suddenly I smelled alcohol and I realised these guys were drunk. I had to pay them to get rid of them.

In 40 years I can say I only had one guy who dealt professionally with me and that was when we had a new bathroom suite installed. He was an absolute doll and I recommended him to friends who also got him to work for them.

There is no point in my getting a project manager as all my jobs are too small.

There has to be more decent guys out there but I seem to attract a lot of crap ones!

looksee

Honestly, Jellybaby, its not just you. I can tell variations on those stories. I do think things have improved a bit, but there is a lot of rubbish work - and rubbish workmen out there. I don't know what the solution is. I tend to gather jobs till I have a few and it is worth getting my organiser on the job - literally he is sorting out a single bedroom redecoration at the moment, granted it is more than a coat of paint job, but still, not a major exercise.

LynnGrace

I tend to end up dealing with these things too as my husband travels a fair bit for work. So far so good, I haven't had a bad experience.

The only suggestion I have is to seek recommendations from trusted neighbours, friends or family. Someone else might seem to be offering a service at a cheaper price, than the person recommended to you, but it's worth a lot to have someone you know saying that they are happy with work done.

All the best, it's a bit of a minefield, but there are good guys out there.

Jellybaby1

Thanks Lynn. I doubt life will get better for me in this respect. I don't have any hopes that the next guy will treat me any better. Anyway I have my list of people ready to get three quotes. I don't always go with the cheapest, the attitude of the guy himself is a big part of it but that hasn't worked for me in the past either. I could tell more horror stories, and even stories from friends in the same situation but its just depressing.

dixiefly

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Thanks Lynn. I doubt life will get better for me in this respect. I don't have any hopes that the next guy will treat me any better. Anyway I have my list of people ready to get three quotes. I don't always go with the cheapest, the attitude of the guy himself is a big part of it but that hasn't worked for me in the past either. I could tell more horror stories, and even stories from friends in the same situation but its just depressing.

As a matter of interest where do you live and do you get recommendations for tradesmen before hiring them?

I live in Co. Meath and would never get a tradesman without getting a recommendation.

If you do not vet a potential tradesman fully and hire dodgy characters like this who knows what else they would get up to in your house.

And, sorry for the criticism, but the non involvements of husbands due to travel is a bit of a cop out. In previous jobs i did a huge amount of travel but would have researched, decided on and dealt with tradesmen like this at least in the first instance / initial contact & agreement.

martinn123

For those of you not familiar, the Home Revovation Incentive, details on Revenue.ie, has weeded out a lot of the Cash Only chancers

Tradesmen have to be Tax compliant, and issue reciepts for you to claim back the VAT

Job's have to total 4500.00 and 500.00 gets claimed back

Details here

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/reliefs/hri/making-a-claim.html

looksee

This might be of assistance Jellybaby https://www.ageaction.ie/care-and-repair/about-care-and-repair

BrensBenz

See, yiz shudda married lads with their own shed and tools and stuff.

Good information from martin123 above but I used a "device" some time ago when I hired some men to pave my driveways. It was a big job - too big for me - because BrensBenz Manor is inclined to flood and I wanted one driveway to have a "soakpit" under it to divert the flood waters away from the house.

Anyway, I accidentally on purpose let slip that I would be taking photographs of the progress, "for curiosity sake!" I showed them my album of photos of the house being built - all taken from the same spot so, if you flicked the photos, the house "grew" before your very eyes.

"I'll take the driveway shots from here and here", I said, as I watched the furrows deepening on their brows.

Now, they did a great job and I have no reason to believe that they wouldn't have done a great job without this tactic. Some time later, one of them called in and asked if he could have copies of the photos for his fliers and I was delighted to assist.

Jellybaby1

dixiefly wrote: »

As a matter of interest where do you live and do you get recommendations for tradesmen before hiring them?

I live in Co. Meath and would never get a tradesman without getting a recommendation.

If you do not vet a potential tradesman fully and hire dodgy characters like this who knows what else they would get up to in your house.

And, sorry for the criticism, but the non involvements of husbands due to travel is a bit of a cop out. In previous jobs i did a huge amount of travel but would have researched, decided on and dealt with tradesmen like this at least in the first instance / initial contact & agreement.

(a) Not sure where I live has anything to do with the problem.

(b) Yes, I have had recommendations on some occasions by friends and also by previous customers of the tradesman. My friends and I all agree that just because a job is done properly for one customer doesn't mean the next customer will receive the same service, as I can confirm. Thankfully I don't have very big jobs any more but about ten years ago I had the attic floored, the guy's quotation stipulated he could show his previous work as a reference, which we took him up on.....this took him six weeks to organise. We still had a problem after he left, the story would take too long to tell here. Yes, his previous work looked great. Who knows if previous customers are his friends and relatives anyway?

(c) I do not hire dodgy characters on purpose. They just turn out to be dodgy afterwards. Just like politicians they promise the sun, moon and stars, but don't deliver.

(d) 'Cop out' by whom?

Red Hare

In my experience most Tradesmen ( including members of my own family) have a built-in rogue element. It just comes with them!
My sympathies JellyB.

Incidentally - i have never come across a tradeswoman but I would definitely try out.

looksee

There is a housepainter of the female persuasion near here. Have never employed her though - not anything deliberate, just not happened.

Jellybaby1

Red Hare wrote: »

In my experience most Tradesmen ( including members of my own family) have a built-in rogue element. It just comes with them!.....

Funny you should say that. At Christmas I was relating my tales of woe to a cousin who works in the construction industry in the UK. He told me about some of the tactics he uses with his customers, and honestly he frightened the hell out of me, and I would even say his methods are downright illegal. I used to be extremely fond of him when I was a child, but this side of his character I never saw before and has changed my attitude towards him. I've never come across any ladies doing construction or DIY yet.

BrensBenz wrote: »

See, yiz shudda married lads with their own shed and tools and stuff........

Anyway, I accidentally on purpose let slip that I would be taking photographs of the progress, "for curiosity sake!" I showed them my album of photos of the house being built - all taken from the same spot so, if you flicked the photos, the house "grew" before your very eyes......

I did marry a lad with his own tools. Sadly they were left to rust!

I did use a camera on the guys working for my spitty friend. They were none too pleased either. Didn't stop 'Spitty' from using his threatening behaviour though.

Jellybaby1

Another irate lady customer on Boards. The carnage goes on...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057428367

I don't mean to draw this out but just want it known what is happening out there not only to me but to many others like me.

muffler

I like to think I know a wee bit about this topic and hopefully I can give a couple of pointers that may help people.

First up I'll throw the cards on the table here and state that Im an architectural technician and self employed for longer than I care to remember. The bulk of my work over the years has been the design/preparations of plans/supervision of construction of houses and extensions to houses etc. I wont bore you all to tears with quoting examples of problems and rip offs that occurred as I'll be here all night. But just a couple of examples where people were being ripped off were things like a contractor looking for an extra payment for the oil storage tank as he claimed it wasn't part of the heating system and the same contractor who wanted €500+ extra for "moving" the position of a room door in a new build that was agreed to before commencing works.

In the unlikely event that you dont have professionals employed and are doing your own thing then you need to bluff those in the same vain as they would bluff you. When ordering your readymix concrete for example you tell the supplier that at the bequest of your engineer you need a cube sample delivered even though you may not have retained an engineer. The supplier doesnt know that you dont have an engineer on the job and wont take a chance and thus you will be guaranteed the proper concrete mix. The same thing can be done when ordering other materials. You simply tell the supplier that you have a real tight bastard of an architect or engineer who is going to inspect the delivered products and he's famous for sending sub standard products back again.

I'm dealing in this post with projects/works on the low to medium end of the scale. One of the biggest scourges I have encountered are extras. A lot of contractors and tradesmen make huge sums of money from "extras" and in fairness extras do arise quite a lot and sometimes at the bequest of the client but not exclusively so. During renovation works especially in older buildings its rare to see the project completed for the agreed budget as things can and do crop up in these situations. But with new work there is no excuse for anyone having to pay anything extra to a contractor or tradesman if they did not request changes or amendments to what was initially agreed.

If your works are likely to exceed 10, 12 or 15 grand and up to 100k then I strongly suggest you get your engaged professional to prepare contract documents but never, ever agree to sign the contractors version of a contract. Get a QS (quantity surveyor) on board and depending on the type and scope of works involved a QS could cost you approx €500 - €700 for works costing up to say around €50,000 value. A QS will make out a full list of materials to be used so all construction workers/contractors submitting a quotation will be singing from the same hymn sheet so to speak. A QS could potentially save you thousands.

Likewise (and again depending on the value/cost of the works) it is highly recommended that you retain the services of an architect/engineer.technician/building surveyor to make periodic inspections of the works. Again this can avoid potential conflict further down the line by ensuring the works are up to scratch and have been carried out in compliance with plans, planning permission and building regulations where applicable.

Nail everything down in advance by way of a contract which will include a retention clause. Engage people who will look after matters on your behalf. Protect yourself and protect your investment.

Its late, Im tired but the above is only a very very brief synopsis of what you should be doing and its not the be all to end all for client protection.

I'll fire up a more appropriate post tomorrow on how to deal with smaller "around the house" type works.

Jellybaby1

muffler wrote: »

.......Likewise (and again depending on the value/cost of the works) it is highly recommended that you retain the services of an architect/engineer.technician/building surveyor to make periodic inspections of the works. Again this can avoid potential conflict further down the line by ensuring the works are up to scratch and have been carried out in compliance with plans, planning permission and building regulations where applicable....

Thanks for putting this helpful information here muffler. I knew I wasn't being paranoid! It does happen. Anyway, regarding hiring professionals. I posted somewhere else on Boards about an architect I once had for a small building job and I was complaining that he hadn't even come to see the job after it had been built. I was slated on the thread because some people said as I hadn't requested an inspection I shouldn't have expected it. Now I just assumed that that was part and parcel of an architect's job and didn't know that an inspection had to be specially requested. When I asked the architect if he was coming to see the job he said 'no, its not necessary'. He didn't say I can come but it will cost extra. Muffler, can you confirm who is right here so others will know?

looksee

This whole subject makes me very cross, the most valuable, important and expensive material possession you have is usually your house, and its the one thing that has the least protection when it needs attention.

I agree with Muffler, as I said in the thread earlier, if you can find someone to supervise the job for you it is money well spent, and can save you money in the long run. I am lucky in that I have someone honest and with integrity.

Sadly it can be as difficult finding someone like that as finding an honest tradesman. I too have had a ridiculous architect who planned a job for us (a good few years ago) and all the way through I was saying, 'but that looks expensive, *this* is our budget'. In the end he gave us an estimate of costs but when we went to try and find a builder they all quoted around three times the amount he had estimated (or were not interested in quoting), so we could not use his plans. Fortunately I had booked him on a step by step basis, so I paid for the initial plans, but refused to pay for the second set as they were not 'fit for purpose' - ie I couldn't use them as the job would have been much higher than our budget. I had figured that the costing was much too low and had been willing to add on maybe 30% or so, but an architect's estimate of €27k and quotes of over €80k was too much to consider.

But going back to the original point, if you just need a job done that costs under €2000 say, you are absolutely taking a chance with your money. You may need a minor roof repair. How can you know what is going on on the roof? The number of times I have said to tradesmen, tv arial repairers etc - 'you may not go on the roof without roof ladders, I don't want anyone walking on the tiles'. 'Oh yes, no problem missus, we have the ladders'. Then they are hiking around the roof, no sign of any ladders, and you don't know till the next heavy rain whether they cracked a tile or not.

As you get older it becomes more and more stressful trying to sort all this out and sadly it is an aspect of getting older that you simply are not able to think fast enough to keep ahead of the chancers that look like decent people, but who are out to fleece you, and I don't think that that is an exaggeration.

Is there a solution? Proper registration of builders would help. It might put prices up a bit in the short term, but would be an insurance in the longer term. Some countries do have a registration system. I am sure tradesmen can offer as many stories of dodgy customers - I too have been self employed and know how much time and effort it can take to get money out of people when you have finished a job. Again some sort of security of payment would help, landlords and tenants now have that facility (or maybe that is just in the UK?), how about something similar for homeowners?

I know the new tax relief system is helping overall towards improving quality, but if you are elderly and living on a lower income you may well be paying for this work out of savings, you may not have enough income to be able to avail of tax relief, so you are caught both ways.

Jellybaby1

We had numerous guys over the decades repairing the roof and cleaning the gutters and replacing pvc fascias, soffits, whatever, I can't remember the technical terms for all the work. I have never ever seen a ladder actually on the roof and I didn't know about roof ladders. They put their ladder up against the front wall, and clambered onto the roof from the ladder, then they walked right over the roof to the back of the roof. This is why these guys can take advantage, because they know that we are totally ignorant of these important details. We are like fools in a fog, and we've been taken for a ride time and time again and I am totally sick of it now. There is the Guild of Master Craftsmen all right, and I did get some of the guys from their list, but I was told by someone that that doesn't guarantee anything either, as anyone can pay a sub, have their work inspected by the Guild, and then just do whatever they fancy. Who in this God-forsaken country (which I still love despite everything) will stand up for the ordinary citizens being robbed left, right and centre?

muffler

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Thanks for putting this helpful information here muffler. I knew I wasn't being paranoid! It does happen. Anyway, regarding hiring professionals. I posted somewhere else on Boards about an architect I once had for a small building job and I was complaining that he hadn't even come to see the job after it had been built. I was slated on the thread because some people said as I hadn't requested an inspection I shouldn't have expected it. Now I just assumed that that was part and parcel of an architect's job and didn't know that an inspection had to be specially requested. When I asked the architect if he was coming to see the job he said 'no, its not necessary'. He didn't say I can come but it will cost extra. Muffler, can you confirm who is right here so others will know?

Its not really a case of anyone being right or wrong in these situations so it would be a bit unfair of me to judge anyone. What I would say however, and based on the circumstances you have described, it appears that you simply didnt fully understand the various roles that an architect has. It happens to lots of people in these situations especially if it's their first time or first time to do so since building regulations were introduced back in 92.

2 quick points I would make is that first of all you shouldn't have been slated in any thread as you did nothing wrong. Secondly it wouldn't have been unreasonable to have expected or hoped that the architect (he doesn't have to btw) would have briefed you regarding inspections and certification of the works. Its most certainly a separate job/role for an architect but personally I would never let a client walk out the door without pointing out the benefits of the certification and suggesting that they have someone on site whether that be me or someone else.

Jellybaby1

Exactly muffler, just what I thought. However, it was the only job I ever needed an architect for and had to get planning permission for it although it was a small job compared to, say an extension or conversion but all the same I expected the architect to be on my side as I was paying him. Like all my projects, water under the bridge now though still aggravating. Thanks again.

BrensBenz

Just a thought:

Could the "Irish" be at a crossroads regarding the customer / supplier relationship, where all previous "rules" are blurred (friend of a friend, etc.) and new rules are just guesswork?

I much prefer doing business in Germany or Holland than in Ireland - nothing is assumed there, it's written, exchanged, discussed, understood, agreed. The time spent on this is proportional to the cost of the project. How often does this happen in Ireland? Maybe ONE party does, or tries. Maybe one party insists on using technical jargon, knowing that the other party doesn't understand. Maybe one party gives vague requirements, allowing the other party to make false but convenient assumptions, etc. Unless both parties are clear on what is agreed, disappointment will result.

Of course we deserve a fair job for a fair rate - it's the law - but we're not good at "law" in Ireland, usually assuming what "should have" happened rather than first verifying, documenting and then insisting on compliance.

For instance, how often have we walked out of a shop, carrying our faulty goods, because the assistant says "it isn't our policy to do such-and-such" and we believe it? "Emm, consumer law? Applies in ALL EC countries? This shop can't opt out of EC law. Show me where it says you can."

Or "would you like to buy an extended warranty with this product?" "Ehhh, NO! If it breaks down, I'll be back here like a bad smell and you won't talk or dawdle me out of my legal rights."

I can (or could) handle most jobs around the house but, in 34 years, I've had just one bad job done. Phone calls to the contractor resulted in dates to return to fix the problems. These dates came and went. Then, I phoned again and, in a chatty tone, I asked for his postal address and whether there is usually someone home. Once received, I thanked him and told him to expect a registered solicitor's letter to that address. The job was put right within a few days!

However, I'm not proud of this tactic - it should not have been necessary. He said HE would do the work but allowed unskilled lads to do it instead. Mrs. BrensBenz informed me that a "bunch of young lads were here" but I failed to speak at the contractor about it. Their shortcuts were invisible, until we had an easterly gale!

Anyway, no criticism of any poster intended. I guess I'm just careful with money - the more money involved, the more careful I become, starting well before boots go onto the ground!

And, except for the above case, I've been satisfied.

looksee

Brensbenz, you would be amazed how much easier it is to be careful with money when you are male! Most of the messing that goes on is more to do with 'how much can we get away with' than lack of skill. It is assumed by the cowboy types that females are a better bet for running rings round than males. They don't even try it most of the time with men.

I have been told some outrageous tales by guys thinking they could talk their way out of a rubbish job, possibly the best was the one who said when challenged that they had only put one coat of paint on some new wooden fascias because you could mix together the undercoat and gloss and that saves doing two coats...and the one that assured me that there was no way the door was going to hang straight, it would always swing open, because the wall was not straight. I pointed out that firstly he had just installed a new frame to deal with that specific issue, and that if he moved one of the hinges slightly forward the door would hang straight. It did.

Its almost like a game they play. They may be able to do it correctly, but it is 'easier' to do it wrong.

Casey78

A lot of tradesmen all getting tarred with the one brush here it seems.
We're not all bad you know.

looksee

Casey, we are well aware that there are some excellent, reliable tradesmen out there. As I type there is an electrician that I trust 100% and have employed numerous times working in the house. I have other people coming in this week, and I know they will do a good job - I do have the buffer of a project manager between me and them in terms of quality, but I am confident that if I were dealing with them myself I would have no problems.

Sadly it is a reflection of previous experience that I am now willing to pay for someone to manage the job for me, even though I know what needs to be done and can recognise a good job when I see it.

As a tradesman would you not be happy to have the cowboys filtered out of your line of work by registration and some sort of system that ensured you would get your money and the customers could be sure they would get a good job done?

Casey78

looksee wrote: »

Casey, we are well aware that there are some excellent, reliable tradesmen out there. As I type there is an electrician that I trust 100% and have employed numerous times working in the house. I have other people coming in this week, and I know they will do a good job - I do have the buffer of a project manager between me and them in terms of quality, but I am confident that if I were dealing with them myself I would have no problems.

Sadly it is a reflection of previous experience that I am now willing to pay for someone to manage the job for me, even though I know what needs to be done and can recognise a good job when I see it.

As a tradesman would you not be happy to have the cowboys filtered out of your line of work by registration and some sort of system that ensured you would get your money and the customers could be sure they would get a good job done?

Of course I would. I take great pride in offering a reliable service so would have no problem with a system like that.

I was told by a very wise man once (My Dad) that the best form of advertising is word of mouth. I have two small kids to raise so I ain't about to start doing shoddy work and get a bad name.

I understand there are rouge tradesmen out there but like everything else you only hear the bad stories so it seems to someone reading a thread like this that we are all bad!

looksee

Casey78 wrote: »

Of course I would. I take great pride in offering a reliable service so would have no problem with a system like that.

I was told by a very wise man once (My Dad) that the best form of advertising is word of mouth. I have two small kids to raise so I ain't about to start doing shoddy work and get a bad name.

I understand there are rouge tradesmen out there but like everything else you only hear the bad stories so it seems to someone reading a thread like this that we are all bad!

It is quite understandable that that is the way it reads Casey, this is a forum for older people. We have all gone through the mill - especially in the 1970s and 80s of being ripped off every time we tried to get a job done. Sometimes in just minor details of the job, sometimes the whole job. Now it is just depressing and disheartening that not only is it a disadvantage being female and trying to get an honest job done, but being an older person means you have a great big 'sucker' sign on your head.

Of course there are honest tradesmen out there, its the dishonest ones unfortunately - and the problem of not being able to identify (ahead of the job) which is which - that cause the issues, and that is what this thread is about. It is really up to the honest ones to push for registration and get the cowboys out of the picture.

You have the consolation that, as an honest tradesman, you will still have the good reputation, and therefore the work, when the dodgy ones have put themselves out of work, but in the meantime the customers have paid out money to the dishonest ones, and there is always a new crop coming up.

BrensBenz

looksee wrote: »

Brensbenz, you would be amazed how much easier it is to be careful with money when you are male!

My "male" buddy was told not to worry about the puddle of brake fluid under his brand new car. "They all do that - just top it up from this free bottle!" Buddy was obviously not mechanically minded and the dealer was in Hampshire so it's not only Irish females being conned.

But yes, I've heard disgraceful stories of mainly female victims being spun yarns rather than simply putting the problem right. I still think that a clear understanding of the requirements and schedule, by BOTH parties, BEFORE work begins, is essential. This may need the participation of a knowledgeable friend or even a project manager. Holding the final installment until all snags are addressed can also help, but only if documented before works begins.

You may find that the prospect of working to an "agreed and documented schedule" scares off some contractors, especially those with lower quotes. But what harm? You've only lost some time.

The professionals will welcome such an approach. It allows them to plan accurately and to get the job right first time. For instance, all those years ago, we went to eight different builders and showed them our house plans. Seven of them gave us quotes on-the-spot. The eighth asked me to call back in two weeks when he would have a fully costed "list" of materials, labour costs and payment schedules. Before this, I had never heard of this man but I just liked his attitude to detail and clarity.

True to his word, the hand-written list was ready when I returned. Some changes were needed (different skirting; I would source windows and doors, etc.) and the list was altered to suit. The quote wasn't the cheapest but we shook hands there and then. To this day, I thank my lucky stars that I met and worked with him. We even invited him and his lovely wife (secretary) to our wedding!

Sheep Lover

Mod <snip> you know Sheep Lover you are not nearly as funny as you think you are. Please don't bother us in this forum again.

Jellybaby1

[QUOTE=Jellybaby1;95309000......In 40 years I can say I only had one guy who dealt professionally with me and that was when we had a new bathroom suite installed. He was an absolute doll and I recommended him to friends who also got him to work for them.[/QUOTE]

Casey, can I draw your attention to my post #3 above. I always give credit where it is due, it just hasn't been evident very often in my lifetime. If you read through the above you will see what I have experienced. That can't be changed by you telling me you wouldn't have treated me badly. I am not tarnishing all tradesmen with the same brush, only the ones that deserve it. When you read all our experiences here, in particular the ladies' stories you surely must acknowledge where we are coming from. I could have told you about the heating system in our first house that was not sufficient for the size of the house, the drains in our present house which just couldn't be cleared, the serving hatch which was only covered in plasterboard when I specifically requested 'bricking up', and on and on and on. As I said before I've only given just a few examples here. I'm getting older now and I need the home to be comfortable and secure before I get too much older. As Looksee said, why aren't the good guys rooting out the bad guys? It effects you too.

muffler

Just revisiting this to post a few points / tips / suggestions for those smaller jobs that need to done around the home every now and then.

Make out your list of what needs doing and get detailed quotations (not estimates now) from at least 3 different tradesmen and possibly up to 5 max. depending on size and scope of works.

Generally speaking you should always try to engage a tradesman based on recommendations especially from people you know personally. Im always slightly weary about the tradesman sending a person off to a job he has done in the past as there's a chance that the person (s) involved are friends or relations of his. So tread carefully on this point.

If you feel its necessary (its recommended though) check his insurance details and see what guarantee he's giving on his work.

Check the actual pricing with regards to the materials end of things and see if you can buy these yourself for less than whats contained in the quotation and if so employ him on a labour only basis.

Be clear on what you want and be firm but fair. You dont want to scare the poor fella away altogether but you do have to make it clear... and this is very important... that YOU are the "employer" and its your money thats funding the project.

Avoid any upfront payments where possible and agree to a payment schedule for the overall job. Its probably near impossible to get him to agree a retention amount on completion but for works costing in the region of 4 or 5 k or more I would certainly be insisting on a certain amount being withheld for a short period of time.

If you are knowledgeable and /or confident enough then check the works on a regular basis. If not then get someone else to do it whether that be a friend or family member with good experience or employ a local architectural technician to keep an eye on things. That would only be necessary in certain situations though.

As said earlier in the thread take photographs and keep a record of the date and time the pics were taken. You also need to keep a record of all hours clocked up and a record of phone calls, emails, face to face meetings etc. together with receipts for all money paid to the tradesman and or suppliers. Basically log everything. It may seem like its a waste of time but should the proverbial hit the fan you have all you need to pursue the matter.

In the unlikely event that problems do arise try to get them resolved in an amicable fashion but by the same token dont allow yourself to be bullied in any way. If the man is coming to your door or into your house to argue about non payment of money or any issue surrounding the work he has done then make sure you have a couple of other people present.

The brain is starting to slow at this stage so I can leave it that for now. But the above points will help someone somewhere.

Jellybaby1

Great stuff Muff! Hmmmmm. Ladies, are you thinking what I'm thinking? Yep, Project Manager. If I could cope with all that myself I doubt I would have had any problems at all.

JuliusCaesar

The problem for me is being only able to afford small jobs each time. But I do have a great builder who will organise workers for me. The roof of the extension started leaking after 5 or so years and he got roofers to fix it. I paid him the full amount.

The next heavy rain, it leaked again, terribly. I phoned him, and he got another couple of guys out who repaired it and he didn't charge me at all this time. I really appreciate him, and have used him a few times. I don't care if he charges a few bob on top, it's really worthwhile.

But it's like cars - I remember a survey back in the 80s by the AA where they sent, seperately, a man and a woman round to garages to get the same problem fixed. The woman was almost invariably quoted a much higher price. Even nowadays I find mechanics are surprised and taken aback when I discuss car problems with them - courtesy of a car maintenence course done in the early 80s!

The itemised list is useful - but you may need some background knowledge to put it together

dixiefly

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

(a) Not sure where I live has anything to do with the problem.

(b) Yes, I have had recommendations on some occasions by friends and also by previous customers of the tradesman. My friends and I all agree that just because a job is done properly for one customer doesn't mean the next customer will receive the same service, as I can confirm. Thankfully I don't have very big jobs any more but about ten years ago I had the attic floored, the guy's quotation stipulated he could show his previous work as a reference, which we took him up on.....this took him six weeks to organise. We still had a problem after he left, the story would take too long to tell here. Yes, his previous work looked great. Who knows if previous customers are his friends and relatives anyway?

(c) I do not hire dodgy characters on purpose. They just turn out to be dodgy afterwards. Just like politicians they promise the sun, moon and stars, but don't deliver.

(d) 'Cop out' by whom?

a. The reason I asked where you live is I suspect that in the cities it is more likely that you would not know or have personal recommendations for people to do jobs. I live in county meath and in the vast majority of jobs that we have got done from original build to maintenance would be done with people that we would have had personal recommendations for.
Two incidents where things went a bit pear shaped was once when my wife arranged garden work with a guy we didn't know and there was a damage done and another case where we arranged to do work in the house and we gave part of the job to a guy we had seen an ad for. He let us down at the last minute which was a pain at the time bit no significant loss.
My point being, try and ensure that you know you have personal recommendation from someone that knows what they are talking about.

b. When getting recommendations try and identify someone locally that knows what they are talking about and knows tradesmen in the area. Whem I get recommendations, I dont get them generally from friends, I get them from a couple of people that are "in the know". You may have a neighbour or two that you do not know particularly well but could be of good assistance regarding advice.

d. By cop out I meant "him at home" as these type of things should be tackled by both of you. I used to be out of the country a lot on business but I used to resist making decisions on work on the house until I was sure of the people we would be working with. At the same time I appreciate that this is the "Oulwans & Oulfellas" forum so I do not know your own situation and note in my own family one of my female relatives who, by necessity, has had to take on the role of arranging all of this type of work so the word cop-out was probably inappropriate.

Jellybaby1

dixiefly wrote: »

a. The reason I asked where you live is I suspect that in the cities it is more likely that you would not know or have personal recommendations for people to do jobs. I live in county meath and in the vast majority of jobs that we have got done from original build to maintenance would be done with people that we would have had personal recommendations for.
Two incidents where things went a bit pear shaped was once when my wife arranged garden work with a guy we didn't know and there was a damage done and another case where we arranged to do work in the house and we gave part of the job to a guy we had seen an ad for. He let us down at the last minute which was a pain at the time bit no significant loss.
My point being, try and ensure that you know you have personal recommendation from someone that knows what they are talking about.

b. When getting recommendations try and identify someone locally that knows what they are talking about and knows tradesmen in the area. Whem I get recommendations, I dont get them generally from friends, I get them from a couple of people that are "in the know". You may have a neighbour or two that you do not know particularly well but could be of good assistance regarding advice.

d. By cop out I meant "him at home" as these type of things should be tackled by both of you. I used to be out of the country a lot on business but I used to resist making decisions on work on the house until I was sure of the people we would be working with. At the same time I appreciate that this is the "Oulwans & Oulfellas" forum so I do not know your own situation and note in my own family one of my female relatives who, by necessity, has had to take on the role of arranging all of this type of work so the word cop-out was probably inappropriate.

Regarding personal recommendations. The ones we got before didn't work out. Regarding location, well, I doubt location guarantees whether or not you wind up with a cowboy. Regarding himself, well, that's the way its been for 40 years so I'm not expecting any changes soon! But forget about himself, I could be single, widowed, its all the same really when you are female. Also, have you noticed how many tradesmen don't put a full address in their adverts? That speaks volumes.

dixiefly

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Regarding personal recommendations. The ones we got before didn't work out. Regarding location, well, I doubt location guarantees whether or not you wind up with a cowboy. Regarding himself, well, that's the way its been for 40 years so I'm not expecting any changes soon! But forget about himself, I could be single, widowed, its all the same really when you are female. Also, have you noticed how many tradesmen don't put a full address in their adverts? That speaks volumes.

of course location doesnt guarantee anything but, imho, getting recommendations regarding possible tradesmen from people in the know and those tradesmen being local to the area reduces the probability of getting a dodgy individual. of course you cannot change where you live but I was enquiring as your experiences would be a lot worse than ours.

lots of people you can use to get suggestions. Neighbours, neices/ nephews who may know people that can give advice. Try and get that advice from people that know about these things. It is easier in the country as a dodgy tradesman will be known around the place by word of mouth. If you have a neighbour that you only know "to see" and got a similar job done then why not approach them and ask for recommendations, experiences etc.

Thats my 2 cents worth, not always possible to avoiid these characters but it is certainly possible to reduce the probabilities.

Jellybaby1

Thanks dixie. Always willing to reduce the probability of disappointment again in the future and I do of course take your advice on board. I will have to see what adventures lie in store for me over the summer period.

madmaggie

I have every sympathy with ladies being ripped off merely because we are female. I am single, have my own house, and make it quite clear that I won't take any crap. I do make a point of saying I own and use a shotgun, and introduce them to the lunatic dog. That apart, I have had only one bad experience with a tradesman, a painter who slobbered paint all over the place. He will never be back, and I bad mouthed him to everyone I know. Anyone else I employed, plumbers, electricians, roofers, were all grand lads, all delighted to have a cup of tea and some home baking. Put your foot down from the word go, it pays in the long run.

cobham

Jellybaby....

" Also, have you noticed how many tradesmen don't put a full address in their adverts? That speaks volumes."

Oh so true, and of course only mobile numbers ....

red sean

Is this thread all about demonising tradespeople?
I've been a tradesman for 40+ years and never ripped off anyone, man or woman. Just like 99.9% of tradespeople.
I've also never advertised in any way other than a bit of local sponsorship when asked. I always charged a fair price to cover myself and make a good living for me and my family. After all, it took 5 years apprenticeship and 4 years working for contractors to gain experience (all on sh*t money) before I could start my own business. Similar to a doctor or lawyer.
I'm retired now, but would need to be charging €45 per hour minimum now to cover all overheads and make a profit.
If you're going to pay peanuts then employ a monkey!

And as for this:

I do make a point of saying I own and use a shotgun, and introduce them to the lunatic dog.

I would be straight to the Garda station to report threatening behaviour.
Nobody should be treated like a criminal if asked to quote for a job.

It's very simple, ask for references, names of previous customers in the area and call them and ask to visit.
Outline what you want done.
Get a quote. (there may be unseen problems that will cost more but that should be outlined by the contractor as a possibility)
All contractors, electricians and builders in particular, must be fully qualified, insured, tax compliant etc. to carry out all but the simplest of jobs.
If there is no trust between the parties from the outset then silly problems are guaranteed to happen.

looksee

No. red sean, we are not trying to demonise tradesmen, and this point was raised earlier in the thread. Obviously there are good, honest tradesmen around, finding them is the issue.

One rubbish jobs I had done was based on references. The tradesman says -I did this job at this house, so you ring them and they say, yes he did, did a good job - how do you know whether this is genuine or one of his mates. There is a limit you can ask a random stranger about their house when they are courteous enough to answer the phone to you.

Another one was a very good job done very well, but still the tradesman could not resist pulling a little 'fast one' claiming that something was not included in his quote, and right enough, depending on how the quote was read it was true, but in retrospect not very clear. Easy to say that after the event, but it would have been more honest to phrase the quote slightly differently so there was no ambiguity. He also used an out of date piece of equipment, that failed almost immediately. Stupid things that let him down just because he could not resist the temptation to cut a corner here and there. His work was otherwise excellent. He has since gone bust I believe.

Keep doing (as you evidently did) a good job and you will make a good living and be respected. Take advantage of people (and this is a forum for older people, who seem to attract chancers) and you will be held up as one of the rogue tradesmen. Its the same in all walks of life, the few bad teachers/ doctors/ supppliers attract much more discussion than the good ones, and taint them all.

It is an area that requires more regulation, but of course this adds paperwork and takes time and is a disadvantage to people who are willing to do the job honestly without regulation.

Jellybaby1

Red Sean, no, this is not about demonising tradespeople at all. As I have explained here twice before, all I did was to state my own experiences, as others have also done. You are obviously not one of the chaps who worked here in my house. I wish you were, especially because of the price of €45 you mentioned which was such a surprise to me as some years back our heating failed a couple of days before Christmas. I called out a plumber and he was telling me about his young apprentice who had just emigrated, and he advised the lad to charge his customers properly "after all, I won't get out of bed for less than €90 an hour."

red sean

€90 per hour is a rip off. I had to retire due to ill health nearly 2 years ago and people were back to charging realistic prices at that stage. During the so called boom years the prices charged were mad, but people got away with it. However, the ones who overcharged also seemed to overspend/overborrow and are now out of business. What goes around etc. etc...........