Cat breeders prices differences(ragdoll)

Schecter01

On checking out two reputable ragdoll breeders, both with good history and reviews, yet one has kittens for €950 and the other for €600, the more expensive one keeps their kittens until 16 weeks and provides neutering, but is that really an extra €350? Or is the €600 one too cheap to be true??

Rips

To me the prices seem one and the same, considering the €950 price will cover neutering and full vacs (at that age) and costs of keep. You will have to weigh them up on individual merits, are the parents health tested etc, what sort of environment are they being reared in.

I will say though, that the breeders who are keeping to neuter, are doing so, only for their own benefit. If would be better in general to wait until they are at least 6 months old. (They may very well be perfectly conscientious breeders, and owners, or even better then the cheaper breeder, but breeding is a business, and they are neutering early is a business decision) You may find this is the case of course with many reputable breeders.

Rommie

Rips wrote: »

To me the prices seem one and the same, considering the €950 price will cover neutering and full vacs (at that age) and costs of keep. You will have to weigh them up on individual merits, are the parents health tested etc, what sort of environment are they being reared in.

I will say though, that the breeders who are keeping to neuter, are doing so, only for their own benefit. If would be better in general to wait until they are at least 6 months old. (They may very well be perfectly conscientious breeders, and owners, or even better then the cheaper breeder, but breeding is a business, and they are neutering early is a business decision) You may find this is the case of course with many reputable breeders.

How are the breeders only keeping for their own benefit? Seeing as kittens are getting pregnant from 4 months onwards? All reputable rescues and breeders will neuter from as early as possible, which is approx ten weeks once the kittens are over 500grams weight. If I was breeding I would only sell to someone happy to buy a neutered, fully vaccinated and fully socialised kitten, if they dont want the kitten neutered, there would be alarm bells going off for me.

Rips

Rommie wrote: »

How are the breeders only keeping for their own benefit? Seeing as kittens are getting pregnant from 4 months onwards? All reputable rescues and breeders will neuter from as early as possible, which is approx ten weeks once the kittens are over 500grams weight. If I was breeding I would only sell to someone happy to buy a neutered, fully vaccinated and fully socialised kitten, if they dont want the kitten neutered, there would be alarm bells going off for me.

They are doing it primarily, to stop their animals being used as breeding animals, which would effect their business, and their own stocks reputation.

Sure, most of them will proclaim that its for population control/prevent unwanted litters/health, the same as they use the wording 'adopt' right beside their €€€ pricetag. You don't think that's hypocritical? What qualifies a breeder to breed, and not a buyer?

Would a cat not be better socialised in the environment in which its going to live? Rescues neuter early when they can, because they can, they have no vested interest other then conscientious reasons, and still, they don't routinely neuter at 4 months, certainly not males.

I think you will find that most breeders of certain breeds (ragdolls, other longhairs and devons) who neuter before homing or stipulate neutering in a 'kitty contract' will also stipulate indoor only homes, so unwanted pregnancies are not a risk.

If you were breeding, you would trust an owner to buy your kittens, but not to neuter them at the appropriate time?

Rommie

Rips wrote: »

They are doing it primarily, to stop their animals being used as breeding animals, which would effect their business, and their own stocks reputation.

Sure, most of them will proclaim that its for population control/prevent unwanted litters/health, the same as they use the wording 'adopt' right beside their €€€ pricetag. You don't think that's hypocritical? What qualifies a breeder to breed, and not a buyer?

Would a cat not be better socialised in the environment in which its going to live? Rescues neuter early when they can, because they can, they have no vested interest other then conscientious reasons, and still, they don't routinely neuter at 4 months, certainly not males.

I think you will find that most breeders of certain breeds (ragdolls, other longhairs and devons) who neuter before homing or stipulate neutering in a 'kitty contract' will also stipulate indoor only homes, so unwanted pregnancies are not a risk.

If you were breeding, you would trust an owner to buy your kittens, but not to neuter them at the appropriate time?

I would think in this day and age that both breeders and rescues are afraid of the same thing, people coming across as completely genuine but suddenly changing their mind when it comes to neutering, realising they can make money and breeding the animal nonetheless. Which is why the nonactive register for cats does not work as well as was originally hoped and many unregistered 'pedigree' kittens are now for sale all over donedeal and other buy and sell sites. I have a half persian kitten, one of a third litter of halfpersian kittens handed over to me because the owner didn't bother getting her cat spayed, despite her being 'an inside cat' , she manages to escape every time she comes into season :rolleyes:
Anyone I know who breeds purebred kittens, puts in all the work, vaccinates, neuters, genetically tests the parents, feeds the best of the best and makes routine trips to the vets to ensure the best of health for their kittens, the same way responsible dog breeders do. I have met many people who have both bought and adopted and have at some point gone 'erah, one litter won't kill them' which unfortunately seems to be a frame of mind irish people have regardless if it is a bought or rescued pet >:( Not everyone is out to breed for a profit, some people do it to promote and sustain their breed and try to breed out genetic issues, the same way dog breeders do. I neuter/spay every single kitten/cat that comes my way as soon as possible, and certainly before rehoming. Many times I have met people that I have turned away that have gone off and gotten a cat/kitten somewhere else and been told that it's had a litter already, what should they do now. There are enough cats in this country without adding more unwanted litters, purebred or otherwise

Schecter01

Funny you should mention people selling non reg kittens on done deal, there is ragdoll kittens up right now for €400 and she stipulates non reg but both parents are active, i text and asked why they were not reg she replied, 'because to register them i have to open a cattery and i have personal problems at the moment and i dont have the time to do all the paperwork and i just want good homes for them'. Why have active parents then?

Themadhouse

The difference could be pet v show quality. It could be better lines in the pedigree. It will be due to neutering, hopefully microchipping and the extra cost of keeping a kitten for the few extra weeks.
Personally I do feel 600-700 is a reasonable price for neutered, chipped, vaxed etc.

Tbh with regard the early neutering.
it is much easier on a kitten at 12 weeks old to be neutered. They bounce back much quicker.
I don't see how it can benefit the breeder. A breeder who neuter is not thinking of their business been taken away. They are concerned about the health of the kitten, they dont want to see unwanted accidents.
Seems like breeders cant win, if they neuter it's to stop potential sales, if they don't they encourage unwanted litters. Don't get it.

Themadhouse

Schecter01 wrote: »

Funny you should mention people selling non reg kittens on done deal, there is ragdoll kittens up right now for €400 and she stipulates non reg but both parents are active, i text and asked why they were not reg she replied, 'because to register them i have to open a cattery and i have personal problems at the moment and i dont have the time to do all the paperwork and i just want good homes for them'. Why have active parents then?

Ugh. They can register the kittens with the gccfi if both parents are registered. It just means they are allocated a prefix. They just aren't bothered.

boomerang

Rips wrote: »

I will say though, that the breeders who are keeping to neuter, are doing so, only for their own benefit. If would be better in general to wait until they are at least 6 months old...You may find this is the case of course with many reputable breeders.

Would have to disagree with you there, Rips. It weeds out the enquiries from people who are thinking they'd like to have a litter from the cat when it's old enough. And the good breeders also don't want to add to the cat overpopulation problem. Personally, I think the breeder with the more expensive price tag is the more reputable one. For one thing, holding on to the kittens until 16 weeks ensures they are fully socialised with other cats and they are physically better able to endure the rough and tumble of a new home with other pets or with kids.

The best age to neuter a kitten is before five months of age. No reason to wait. It's an old chestnut from when anaesthetics were not as safe as they are now. 15% of first litters are born to kittens less than six months old! :eek: They are not physically or behaviourally mature enough to rear kittens at that age.

boomerang

Rips wrote: »

They are doing it primarily, to stop their animals being used as breeding animals, which would effect their business, and their own stocks reputation.

Would a cat not be better socialised in the environment in which its going to live? Rescues neuter early when they can, because they can, they have no vested interest other then conscientious reasons, and still, they don't routinely neuter at 4 months, certainly not males.

I think you will find that most breeders of certain breeds (ragdolls, other longhairs and devons) who neuter before homing or stipulate neutering in a 'kitty contract' will also stipulate indoor only homes, so unwanted pregnancies are not a risk.

Rips I'm not being rude, but do you personally know any cat breeders, personally? For the good breeders, it's more an expensive hobby than a brisk business - even though, yes, they do make some money when a kitten is sold. The breeders I know are all very conscious and supportive of cat rescue.

From working in cat rescue myself, I know for sure that whatever stipulations you impose in the adoption contract, once that kitten goes to its new home, all bets are off. People sometime change their minds about keeping a kitten indoors-only, because they don't realise the effort involved. And kittens dash through doors. So I don't agree there's no risk of an unforeseen pregnancy.

A kitten rehomed at sixteen weeks has had the the full effects of socialisation with its siblings, so that it will more willingly accept a new cat into the home, in the future. Not to mention they have had the much-needed company and playtime of other kittens. It's heartbreaking to see eight or nine week old kittens going to a home on their own. They have also had the chance to learn from mum - something we deny them, when they are adopted out younger.

Both the rescues in my county neuter both males and females at twelve weeks or when they reach 1kg, so long as they are perfectly healthy. They are only put up for adoption once they've been neutered.

the beer revolu

Breeders avoid adding to the overpopulation of cats by breeding cats???

Am I the only one here having a problem getting their head around this concept?

boomerang

Rommie wrote: »

I would think in this day and age that both breeders and rescues are afraid of the same thing, people coming across as completely genuine but suddenly changing their mind when it comes to neutering

I used to work with a rescue which, at the time, was rehoming young kittens un-neutered, with an agreement signed by the owner to have the kitten spayed/neutered by a certain date, to be paid for by the rescue as the cost of neutering was included in the adoption fee. Well, when you followed up with the new owners, some had long-fingered the spay/neuter, and in one case, they had decided it was better for the cat not to be neutered at all! Most you had to chase over several weeks to ensure they made the vet appointment. Pet owners just wouldn't view spay/neuter with the same urgency that rescues do. Now that rescue holds on to the kittens until they are old enough to spay/neuter before rehoming. It also means they are fully vaccinated before leaving the rescue, which is great.

boomerang

the beer revolu wrote: »

Breeders avoid adding to the overpopulation of cats by breeding cats???

Am I the only one here having a problem getting their head around this concept?

When was the last time you saw a purebred cat in rescue? I've been in cat rescue ten years, and have never once had a pedigree come through my hands! There isn't an over-population of pedigree cats, and they are a small minority of the cat population in Ireland. The pet pedigree cats owned by various friends of mine are all neutered. And I got to know those people because of their involvement in cat rescue... So typically the pedigree cat owners are very conscientious and responsible.

Schecter01

If the breeder want to neuter the kitten And release at 16 weeks instead of 12, i take that as being a very responsible breeder, protecting the needs of the breed, the breeder and the owner, takes the hassle out of me organising the neutering, and the teething problems of litter training, social development, the breeder is spending and extra 3-4 weeks looking after the kitten when they could let them go easily at 12weeks, that shows sincere responibility to the breed in my eyes

the beer revolu

boomerang wrote: »

When was the last time you saw a purebred cat in rescue? I've been in cat rescue ten years, and have never once had a pedigree come through my hands! There isn't an over-population of pedigree cats, and they are a small minority of the cat population in Ireland. The pet pedigree cats owned by various friends of mine are all neutered. And I got to know those people because of their involvement in cat rescue... So typically the pedigree cat owners are very conscientious and responsible.

Every pedigree cat "adopted" (for money) is another cat not rescued.
Cats are cats and we either have overpopulation or we don't. Breeding cats adds to this population.

BTW I have two neutered cats.

Nody

boomerang wrote: »

When was the last time you saw a purebred cat in rescue? I've been in cat rescue ten years, and have never once had a pedigree come through my hands! There isn't an over-population of pedigree cats, and they are a small minority of the cat population in Ireland. The pet pedigree cats owned by various friends of mine are all neutered. And I got to know those people because of their involvement in cat rescue... So typically the pedigree cat owners are very conscientious and responsible.

The rescue I worked for have had three persians (adults, all picked up in the same area within a day) and two maine coons (adult and 6ish month old, same time and coloring so thinking father & son) that I know of in the last five years but Id agree it's very rare (since most people would simply sell them for a low cost compared to letting them go).

the beer revolu wrote: »

Every pedigree cat "adopted" (for money) is another cat not rescued.
Cats are cats and we either have overpopulation or we don't. Breeding cats adds to this population.

BTW I have two neutered cats.

I work in a rescue; I have two foster cats and I've been a foster family for a few years now. I'll tell you straight up that I'll be buying a maine coon down the line because I want that specific breed because of it's personality and seeing how rare they are in a rescue I fully expect I'll be buying one (after a lot of research of the breeder options) and it's not going to replace another rescue cat. It's MC or no cat; not MC or rescue (and I'll still have rescues even with the MC but I simply want to have a male MC)...

Schecter01

Im sorry but that is a ridiculous statement, i created this this post to enquire about pure bred cats directed at responsible cat breeders and pedigree cat owners, if people want to banter on about the morality and high horse attitudeof neutering and pure bred vs rescuing, please create your own post.

Schecter01

That was directed at the beer

boomerang

Well that's the thing, my various friends already have rescue cats, but they are such cat nuts, it happened they each later developed an interest in a certain breed specifically and added a pedigree cat to a home already filled with rescue moggies. One for instance had always wanted to have a Scottish Fold and another always loved the Devon Rex. It's the same with dogs - if someone has their heart set on a certain breed that they won't find in rescue, I have no problem with them purchasing from a responsible breeder. Especially if they want the relevant health tests done. It doesn't deny a dog in rescue because that doesn't fulfil what they were looking for.

boomerang

Nody wrote: »

The rescue I worked for have had three persians (adults, all picked up in the same area within a day) and two maine coons (adult and 6ish month old, same time and coloring so thinking father & son) that I know of in the last five years but Id agree it's very rare (since most people would simply sell them for a low cost compared to letting them go).

Wow Nody, that's incredible! Ten years down the line here (and literally thousands of cats later) and nary a pedigree! A friend of mine in Dublin did rescue an un-neutered, FIV+ pedigree cat from the streets though, who was in a truly awful state.

the beer revolu

Schecter01 wrote: »

Im sorry but that is a ridiculous statement, i created this this post to enquire about pure bred cats directed at responsible cat breeders and pedigree cat owners, if people want to banter on about the morality and high horse attitudeof neutering and pure bred vs rescuing, please create your own post.

My apologies, OP. I didn't intend to have a go at you for choosing to purchase a pedigree cat - it was the way the thread wentand I guess I forgot what the original post was about.

What I was reacting to this notion that, somehow, people who breed cats can be helping to avoid the overpopulation of cats in this country. The irony of that just struck me. I'll leave it there and not go further off topic.

DBB

Schecter01 wrote: »

Im sorry but that is a ridiculous statement, i created this this post to enquire about pure bred cats directed at responsible cat breeders and pedigree cat owners, if people want to banter on about the morality and high horse attitudeof neutering and pure bred vs rescuing, please create your own post.

Please report posts rather than taking matters into your ownhands. Back seat moderating is in contravention of the site-wide rules.
Also, to others incl The Beer Revolu... although it has been somewhat resolved (thank you for doing so amicably), this thread is not to be highjacked by talk of rescue. The op wants to buy a purebred cat, so please stick to the topic.
Thanks,
DBB

Themadhouse

Make sure the breeder has recent hcm scans for dam and sire. This could also account for the higher price.

Schecter01

Thank you moderator apologies.

Yes they both do hcm and pkd negative, what i found was the more expensive breeder was much more
Informative with questions, much more friendly to talk to, and her and her husband are vet surgeons themselves, they neuter their kittens, 3x vaccines, 6week insurance etc. while the cheaper one while was a bit more one word answers. Not as friendly and breeds multiple breeds

Schecter01

Not that this is an issue, but i got a better feeling off the € 950 breeder, and the cost of neutering, care, etc over the extra 3 weeks she keeps the kitten does balance it out a bit more, plus i liked the markings on her kittens and the parents more than the other. 4 gen pedigree also.

Schecter01

The only thing is physically handing over €950, even though we would spend that and more over time regardless, but the breed fits what we are looking for for our kids, we and autistic son, and the calming wffect and laid backness of ragdolls would really help him

Rips

Sounds good.
It does raise one of the issues I was concerned about though, a kitten raised in (assuming) a near perfect environment, moved into a home with children.

I have a purebred rescue, the most sociable and robust indoor cat you could come across. Loves attention, loves to play, he wants nothing more then to be carried around all day like a baby, loves rough play and has the best bite inhibition I've ever encountered. Can't stand children. Wasn't so bad to start with, noisy 5yr old put paid to that and now even the noise of children makes him tense. Its the only time he's ever shown any kind of aggression.

I won't harp on about rescue, as that wasn't one of my points to start with, but if cost is an issue and the factors attributing to those costs are not high on your list of priorities, such as, getting a cat that is great for your son, then maybe rescue would be a better option.

Magenta

Schecter01 wrote: »

Thank you moderator apologies.

Yes they both do hcm and pkd negative, what i found was the more expensive breeder was much more
Informative with questions, much more friendly to talk to, and her and her husband are vet surgeons themselves, they neuter their kittens, 3x vaccines, 6week insurance etc. while the cheaper one while was a bit more one word answers. Not as friendly and breeds multiple breeds

Schecter01 wrote: »

Not that this is an issue, but i got a better feeling off the € 950 breeder, and the cost of neutering, care, etc over the extra 3 weeks she keeps the kitten does balance it out a bit more, plus i liked the markings on her kittens and the parents more than the other. 4 gen pedigree also.

I think you know your answer to this

350 seems a lot now but if kitty lives 10 years you're talking 35 euro a year. A cat is a longterm buy and it's worth it to make sure you get one that's been well looked after and well bred.
"Price is what you pay, value is what you get".
There are thousands of people who buy a 200 euro puppy or kitten instead of a 500 euro one and end up spending 1000s in vets bills. It's a false economy

Magenta

Out of curiosity I just Googled Ragdoll breeders...

Not sure if it's the same breeder and I won't name names.
One has 2 x Ragdoll litters for sale for a lot less than 950 euro each. Won't name exact price...
The first have the markings, long hair etc.
The second litter are NOT Ragdolls!!! They are shorthaired kittens, Ragdolls are long haired. You can literally see the difference in coat between the two litters- the tails show it all. Be careful OP.

Schecter01

Inagree magenta, back before we had our second child we bought a pure bred german shepherd, i had dogs as a child and always wanted one, we researched and searched and ended up paying €600 for a pup from a line of champion show dogs, no dysplasia issues, never once a sign of aggression, the most warm hearted dog i have ever owned, my point is you get what you pay for in the long run, hence why we are willing to pay now rather thanpay more later in heartache

Schecter01

Yes magenta they were the cheaper ones i was weary of, and the breeder wasnt as friendly, €600. She is breeding a long time and im not going to doubt her cats ancestry, but we have gone with a different breeder

Schecter01

Yes rip very good points, but the kittens are raised around children so we think we should be ok, fjngers crossed anyway! And the wife is set on a Ragdoll too!

Themadhouse

There is a cat show on in ballinteer this Sunday if you are nearby. You will probably see some ragdoll and get to speak to owner/breeders.

bilbot79

How did the OP get on? I'm looking for a ragdoll myself and trying to get my head around the high price/low price, registered/unregistered thing.