2015 All-Ireland Senior Hurling Championship Discussion Thread

equivariant

I think people are focusing far too much on the 'mistake' that Galway made with Callanan. Its like they forget that the Galway defence held the rest of the entire Tipp team to 7 points! This was the Tipp forward line being held up as the most potent forward line in hurling. Do you think that would have happened if he had switched it all up to stop one player?

Galway's target yesterday wasn't to stop Seamie Callanan - it was to win the match. They achieved that and they were never going to hammer Tipperary, so winning by one point is a pretty damn good result. And if TJ Reid scores 4 goals in the final and Galway win by a point, I will be just as happy.

thinkstoomuch1

zombieHanalei wrote: »

Yeah that's true, the Callanan thing was poor on Cunningham's part, could have (and very nearly did) cost them a game in which they were by far the better team. I think you said elsewhere that he was forewarned in the qualifier game against Tipp last year when Callanan pretty much did exactly the same thing.

Absolutely 3-8 last year so once bittetwice shy didn't happen this time when it should have

Galway knew what they were facing but had no plan to deal with it
Kk have not one forward but all six so huge challenge ahead

equivariant

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Absolutely 3-8 last year so once bittetwice shy didn't happen this time when it should have

Galway knew what they were facing but had no plan to deal with it
Kk have not one forward but all six so huge challenge ahead

Can I point out this is nonsense - they won the game, so in fact the one thing that we actually do know is that they were able to deal with Callanan scoring 3-9

PS No one was accusing Tipp of being a one forward team before the game, so the same applies to your comment about KK

robbiezero

equivariant wrote: »

Can I point out this is nonsense - they won the game, so in fact the one thing that we actually do know is that they were able to deal with Callanan scoring 3-9

PS No one was accusing Tipp of being a one forward team before the game, so the same applies to your comment about KK

Just because they won the game doesn't mean they did everything right.
Had they lost that game, the knives would have been out for the management team in a big way over losing a game they were comfortably the better team in.

cson

Seamie's 2nd goal was quite lucky in him getting the bounce of the ball - he didn't catch it, it dropped kindly for him off Mannion's shoulder.

equivariant

robbiezero wrote: »

Just because they won the game doesn't mean they did everything right.
Had they lost that game, the knives would have been out for the management team in a big way over losing a game they were comfortably the better team in.

Of course they didn't do everything right - no team does. If they had done everything right they would have won by 20 points or something which is clearly never going to happen. In fact that is exactly my point. I am sure that Cunningham knew exactly what was going on with Callinan - do people really think he didn't notice or something? He decided that he wasn't going to sacrifice his gameplan to stop one player and in the end he was right to do so. Suppose he had dropped a sweeper back to help out the fullback in the first half or had moved Mannion off Callanan earlier. Would Galway still have dominated midfield? How many extra points would the other Tipp players have got as a result. Would it have stopped Callanan anyway.

I like the fact that Cunningham had the belief and confidence to stick with his gameplan while the game was still close. If Tipp were leading by 6 or 7 points in the first half then by all means switch it up, but that never happened. There was no stage when it looked like the game was going away from Galway, so why should he abandon his gameplan?

The growler

cson wrote: »

Seamie's 2nd goal was quite lucky in him getting the bounce of the ball - he didn't catch it, it dropped kindly for him off Mannion's shoulder.

If you think that goal was "lucky" you clearly don't understand hurling. Yes it may have dropped for him off Mannion's shoulder but what he did then was anything but lucky. As the old saying goes you make your own luck.

thinkstoomuch1

equivariant wrote: »

Can I point out this is nonsense - they won the game, so in fact the one thing that we actually do know is that they were able to deal with Callanan scoring 3-9

PS No one was accusing Tipp of being a one forward team before the game, so the same applies to your comment about KK

Don't take complete gibberish with respect

Just cause you win doesn't mean all hunkory dory cool a boola nonsense
You would some defence coach is all I say if you think Galway dealt effectively with Callan with respect

Galway conceded 3-8 last year and lost the game to Callan
They nearly suffered the same fate conceding 3-9

Do that to kk and it's game over as imagine what if allowed tj Reid will do or power to them
This is elite elite sport at the top level In fairness

Point with tipp is have forwards but only one played good yesterday apart from outstanding maher foraging


Kk have six forwards with huge likely hood minimum three play well on all ireland final day

tomwaterford

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Don't take complete gibberish with respect

Just cause you win doesn't mean all hunkory dory cool a boola nonsense
You would some defence coach is all I say if you think Galway dealt effectively with Callan with respect

Galway conceded 3-8 last year and lost the game to Callan
They nearly suffered the same fate conceding 3-9

Do that to kk and it's game over as imagine what if allowed tj Reid will do or power to them
This is elite elite sport at the top level In fairness

Point with tipp is have forwards but only one played good yesterday apart from outstanding maher foraging


Kk have six forwards with huge likely hood minimum three play well on all ireland final day

Kk haven't six good forwards...'3 are at best above average (maybe reid v.good)...ask anyone from kk that...three different kk people said as much to me today in work
And certainly None of the quality of callinan

dirkmeister

tomwaterford wrote: »

Kk haven't six good forwards...'3 are at best above average (maybe reid v.good)...ask anyone from kk that...three different kk people said as much to me today in work
And certainly None of the quality of callinan

How do you rate Richie Hogan?

tomwaterford

dirkmeister wrote: »

How do you rate Richie Hogan?

As an outstanding midfielder....not a forward as such (Scoring rates aside)....to call him just a forward massively under values his role to kk imho
Can't see anyone taking hurler of the year off him tbh

randd1

tomwaterford wrote: »

As an outstanding midfielder....not a forward as such (Scoring rates aside)....to call him just a forward massively under values his role to kk imho
Can't see anyone taking hurler of the year off him tbh

He's only played one year at midfield, and as soon as Fennelly was fit he went up front again. He's a forward.

As is Reid, the form forward in the country.
Power when fit is the biggest goal threat in hurling from the HF line.
Larkin and Colin Fennelly are two of the toughest, niggly and hard working forwards in the country who will bury a goal chance if given a clear one.
Aylward has gotten 3/4 points of the two best defences Kilkenny have faced this year.

And even if the Kilkenny forwards are not getting the scores, unlike the Tipp forwards, you can be sure they will harass, harry and hit the Galway players every chance they get. Kilkenny will most definitely have six forwards on display in the AI final, either in scores, dirty ball or work ethic.

Mountainlad

Agree on the Kilkenny forwards with one exception, Colin Fennelly is a very poor finisher.

brookville

I have great time for colin he is a great honest worker,was brilliant in the 2nd half of the replay last year but he hasn't kicked on from last if anything I think his striking has gone backwards but himself and larkin will be expecting to up their performances from the last day

zetecescort

Walter Walsh not exactly working the scoreboard lately either.

brookville

Walter does some great things and a great ball winner but again drove some stinkers in the last two matches and failed to score against wexford but his doing some things right it's the end product that let's him down,I wouldn't be surprised to c richie power start instead of him if his anyway right

cson

The growler wrote: »

If you think that goal was "lucky" you clearly don't understand hurling. Yes it may have dropped for him off Mannion's shoulder but what he did then was anything but lucky. As the old saying goes you make your own luck.

That's luck. That ball could have gone anywhere off Mannion's shoulder.

citykat

tomwaterford wrote: »

Kk haven't six good forwards...'3 are at best above average (maybe reid v.good)...ask anyone from kk that...three different kk people said as much to me today in work
And certainly None of the quality of callinan

Some of those average forwards will win far more AIs than Seamie in their career.

blackwave

Dont forget Ger Aylward either who has been very good this year for KK as well.

dirkmeister

As an aside, when Tipp were awarded that 65 near the end, it looks like Lar Corbett showed great sportsmanship in admitting that the ball had touched his hurl last.

Whatever he decides to do he owes Tipp nothing.

buggy beag

cson wrote:

That's luck. That ball could have gone anywhere off Mannion's shoulder.

He had the alertness and sharpness to pick that ball off his shoulder though.luck would be if he was looking around for the ball and it just dropped into his hand without knowing it,big difference between reading the ball and luck imo

cson

I don't know how you can read the ball dropping for you off someones shoulder... But he was alert enough to catch it and composed enough to finish it. Notwithstanding it was quite lucky, in my opinion, that the ball dropped for him like it did.

oconnol1

citykat wrote: »

Some of those average forwards will win far more AIs than Seamie in their career.

What about Richie Power!!!!, he may be out with injury but he is very much on par with SC. He may be back for the Al Final.

thinkstoomuch1

randd1 wrote: »

He's only played one year at midfield, and as soon as Fennelly was fit he went up front again. He's a forward.

As is Reid, the form forward in the country.
Power when fit is the biggest goal threat in hurling from the HF line.
Larkin and Colin Fennelly are two of the toughest, niggly and hard working forwards in the country who will bury a goal chance if given a clear one.
Aylward has gotten 3/4 points of the two best defences Kilkenny have faced this year.

And even if the Kilkenny forwards are not getting the scores, unlike the Tipp forwards, you can be sure they will harass, harry and hit the Galway players every chance they get. Kilkenny will most definitely have six forwards on display in the AI final, either in scores, dirty ball or work ethic.

Outstanding post one i fully agree with and backed up with real logic

ru437z9t8fidq2

dirkmeister wrote: »

As an aside, when Tipp were awarded that 65 near the end, it looks like Lar Corbett showed great sportsmanship in admitting that the ball had touched his hurl last.

Whatever he decides to do he owes Tipp nothing.

I wonder did that happen? It looked like the umpire was sticking to his guns and saying 65 so I was wondering how the ref decided in the end, astonishing by Lar if so.

robbiezero

Harvey Nutty Scanner wrote: »

I wonder did that happen? It looked like the umpire was sticking to his guns and saying 65 so I was wondering how the ref decided in the end, astonishing by Lar if so.

I thought Lar was calling for a 65 and had his hurley up in the air to indicate that he thought it was a 65.

ru437z9t8fidq2

robbiezero wrote: »

I thought Lar was calling for a 65 and had his hurley up in the air to indicate that he thought it was a 65.

Would love to know how it was decided

robbiezero

Harvey Nutty Scanner wrote: »

Would love to know how it was decided

From where I was sitting it was obviously wide off Lar and I'd say Barry Kelly thought the same.

donnem33

robbiezero wrote: »

I thought Lar was calling for a 65 and had his hurley up in the air to indicate that he thought it was a 65.

Thats how I read the situation too - dont know how people are drawing conclusions suggesting Lar was indicating the ball hit off his hurl last!!

ru437z9t8fidq2

donnem33 wrote: »

Thats how I read the situation too - dont know how people are drawing conclusions suggesting Lar was indicating the ball hit off his hurl last!!

Tbh I would imagine Callanan in goal going absolutely ape**** aswell as all the Galway fans that could see it clear as day had an effect on the decision whether it should have or not. Or as said above maybe the ref just saw it as it was not exactly a tough one to spot.

Anyway, it was the correct decision in the end, not really important.

MfMan

robbiezero wrote: »

From where I was sitting it was obviously wide off Lar and I'd say Barry Kelly thought the same.

Thought it went out directly without touching either on the endline.

Realt Dearg Sec

MfMan wrote: »

Thought it went out directly without touching either on the endline.

It clearly touched Lars hurl, very clear in the replay.

aidan24326

equivariant wrote: »

I think people are focusing far too much on the 'mistake' that Galway made with Callanan. Its like they forget that the Galway defence held the rest of the entire Tipp team to 7 points! This was the Tipp forward line being held up as the most potent forward line in hurling. Do you think that would have happened if he had switched it all up to stop one player?

Well we don't know now what would have happened. But what you're trying to say is that the end justifies the means, and that's all well and good when you win but we could easily have lost that game. And we'd have lost it due to a complete failure to stop one player.

I know what you mean about not abandoning the gameplan and all of that, but when one player is basically tearing you a new arsehole you simply have to respond to that. The defence in general played superbly but leaving Mannion isolated one on one with Callanan almost cost us a game in which Galway were easily the better team.

robbiezero

aidan24326 wrote: »

Well we don't know now what would have happened. But what you're trying to say is that the end justifies the means, and that's all well and good when you win but we could easily have lost that game. And we'd have lost it due to a complete failure to stop one player.

I know what you mean about not abandoning the gameplan and all of that, but when one player is basically tearing you a new arsehole you simply have to respond to that. The defence in general played superbly but leaving Mannion isolated one on one with Callanan almost cost us a game in which Galway were easily the better team.

Thought it was madness myself. You wouldn't have had to change the gameplan to try something different. Surely could have switched Coen or Hanbury on to him earlier. I can't understand how you can leave one of the most dangerous forwards in the country run amok and not make a switch because your other backs are doing ok on Niall O Meara or Shane Bourke or Forde etc. Had the penalty been buried or Lar's shot, Tipp almost certainly would have won the game and we would have been talking about a game lost on the line.

Mountainlad

Poor management in that respect. Galway are a really well coached team I think but tactically a bit frail and if anyone will exploit that it's Cody.

Moreover on the goal concession side of things m, ignoring Callinan Tipp still had a heap of chance from Bonner, Bubbles, Lar and the penalty. They did well in competing with Tipp for primary possession I thought and worked it well out of defense when they had it but they were being killed straight down the middle of defense far too many times. Given One of Tipps biggest weaknesses is competing in the air in the half forward line which conversely is one of Kilkenny biggest strengths I think that spells trouble.

FairPlay to them though, I'd have to admit they have far exceeded my expectations for them at the start of the year. They've a great style about their play too.

aidan24326

robbiezero wrote: »

Thought it was madness myself. You wouldn't have had to change the gameplan to try something different. Surely could have switched Coen or Hanbury on to him earlier. I can't understand how you can leave one of the most dangerous forwards in the country run amok and not make a switch because your other backs are doing ok on Niall O Meara or Shane Bourke or Forde etc. Had the penalty been buried or Lar's shot, Tipp almost certainly would have won the game and we would have been talking about a game lost on the line.

Exactly. And that's why it's wrong to say now that everything is fine and dandy just because we scraped over the line in the end.

And I'm not for criticizing the management team too much as they got a lot of things right and they have this team playing with passion and belief and ravenous hunger.

But the issue remains as to why they allowed Callanan run amok for 60 minutes before they saw fit to try and do something about it. I just hope Padraig Mannion's confidence hasn't been hurt too much by this. He has been our best defender all year but yesterday he was absolutely hung out to dry.

letsseehere14

A brilliant game. I tipped tipp but was wrong. The only shock I could see happened.
It saved the season in all honesty and hopefully will show other teams that this is how two teams should approach the championship.
Galway were better. Wanted it far more. We're way more up for it. Tipp forwards lacked any impact.
Callinan now has to be considered one of the best. No doubt.
I think the 5 weeks off hurt tipp again. Seems only kk can cope with the break. Looking back a few years Munster winners have now lost semi finals in 07, 08, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15. That's pretty obvious evidence. Dublin lost sf in 13 too. Seems only kk can handle the long time off. Seriously who'd win munster? It's now an obvious disadvantage. Tipp had 2 games played to Galways 5.
Back to the game. Never seen so much fist pumping. Tireless work rate. Galway definitely the better on the day. Tipp need to practice penalties!
I'll still tip kk to win it out. I hope to god I'm wrong but can see Galway repeat that effort? If they fall flat they will forever be known as the most hot and cold team in history. And it will most certainly be a huge disappointment. It will be a tough repeat but surely they have the motivation? And surely it's better they didn't beat kk first time out? You'd rarely beat them twice in a year.

PTH2009

Galway All Ireland Senoir Hurling Champions 2015, All Ireland Intermediate Hurling Champions 2015, All Ireland Minor Hurling Champions 2015 and All Ireland under 21 Hurling Champions 2015. Its possible.

donnem33

PTH2009 wrote: »

Galway All Ireland Senoir Hurling Champions 2015, All Ireland Intermediate Hurling Champions 2015, All Ireland Minor Hurling Champions 2015 and All Ireland under 21 Hurling Champions 2015. Its possible.

1 down 3 to go! :P

oconnol1

PTH2009 wrote: »

Galway All Ireland Senoir Hurling Champions 2015, All Ireland Intermediate Hurling Champions 2015, All Ireland Minor Hurling Champions 2015 and All Ireland under 21 Hurling Champions 2015. Its possible.

This must be a carlsberg add😀

equivariant

aidan24326 wrote: »

Well we don't know now what would have happened. But what you're trying to say is that the end justifies the means, and that's all well and good when you win but we could easily have lost that game. And we'd have lost it due to a complete failure to stop one player.

I know what you mean about not abandoning the gameplan and all of that, but when one player is basically tearing you a new arsehole you simply have to respond to that. The defence in general played superbly but leaving Mannion isolated one on one with Callanan almost cost us a game in which Galway were easily the better team.

Thats not what I am trying to say at all.

My point is that Cunningham knew that focusing on one bad point while all over the field Galway were winning other battles is a bad strategy. And one player was not tearing them a new one. That one player was just about keeping Tipp in the game - which is a very different situation.

As regards not knowing what would have happened, I disagree actually. There is clear evidence. The first ball in after Mannion was moved resulted in Callanan catching cleanly and turning his man to get clean through on goal - so pretty much the same as before.

So what you are suggesting is that Cunningham should have kept changing his defence around until he found someone who could mark Callanan? That almost certainly would have resulted in defeat. I think that wisely he decided to continue with his gameplan and stayed focused on the big picture. That is a good strategy in a tight game I think. Definitely Tipp could have won the game, but thankfully Cunningham was more focused on winning, rather than worrying about how the headlines would look bad if he lost

spiralism

equivariant wrote: »

Thats not what I am trying to say at all.

My point is that Cunningham knew that focusing on one bad point while all over the field Galway were winning other battles is a bad strategy. And one player was not tearing them a new one. That one player was just about keeping Tipp in the game - which is a very different situation.

As regards not knowing what would have happened, I disagree actually. There is clear evidence. The first ball in after Mannion was moved resulted in Callanan catching cleanly and turning his man to get clean through on goal - so pretty much the same as before.

So what you are suggesting is that Cunningham should have kept changing his defence around until he found someone who could mark Callanan? That almost certainly would have resulted in defeat. I think that wisely he decided to continue with his gameplan and stayed focused on the big picture. That is a good strategy in a tight game I think. Definitely Tipp could have won the game, but thankfully Cunningham was more focused on winning, rather than worrying about how the headlines would look bad if he lost

There wasn't really any stopping Callanan on Sunday looking back. Just nothing worked. They'd been told to bat and hook away any high balls dropped in on the full back line. First minute this happens, Mannion swats in and snaps his hurl in half. After that he tried to catch the ball coming in, Callanan beats him to it and scores again. Then same thing happens again. After that they switch to Hanbury, same again and he gives away a penalty.

They could have put Coen on him but they already switched to Hanbury and the rest of their defensive structure was solid, it was Callanan and Callanan alone getting the scores. They could have switched the whole defensive structure but Callanan was already on fire and would have kept the scoreboard ticking, assumedly with O'Dwyer or one of the other boys racking up scores as well. They were damned if they did, damned if they didn't

robbiezero

spiralism wrote: »

There wasn't really any stopping Callanan on Sunday looking back. Just nothing worked. They'd been told to bat and hook away any high balls dropped in on the full back line. First minute this happens, Mannion swats in and snaps his hurl in half. After that he tried to catch the ball coming in, Callanan beats him to it and scores again. Then same thing happens again. After that they switch to Hanbury, same again and he gives away a penalty.

They could have put Coen on him but they already switched to Hanbury and the rest of their defensive structure was solid, it was Callanan and Callanan alone getting the scores. They could have switched the whole defensive structure but Callanan was already on fire and would have kept the scoreboard ticking, assumedly with O'Dwyer or one of the other boys racking up scores as well. They were damned if they did, damned if they didn't

I don't know if they would have been damned for trying things out in that situation. Whats for certain that had they lost that game Sunday and they very very nearly did, there would have been some serious damning of their inaction.
Take a look at the damning the Tipp management are getting for their inaction in not resolving what were much less obvious issues.

donnem33

robbiezero wrote: »

I don't know if they would have been damned for trying things out in that situation. Whats for certain that had they lost that game Sunday and they very very nearly did, there would have been some serious damning of their inaction.
Take a look at the damning the Tipp management are getting for their inaction in not resolving what were much less obvious issues.

To be fair to Mannion he did alot of good things in the game too!

All good managers dont get it right either it must be remembered evern brian cody left brian hogan on in last years all ireland and didnt make a change. for the replay he replaced hogan with joyce and joyce goes on to win man of the match. its such small margins!!

robbiezero

donnem33 wrote: »

To be fair to Mannion he did alot of good things in the game too!

All good managers dont get it right either it must be remembered evern brian cody left brian hogan on in last years all ireland and didnt make a change. for the replay he replaced hogan with joyce and joyce goes on to win man of the match. its such small margins!!

Hogan was struggling as were most of the KK backs, but wasn't being taken for 3-4, there is no comparison between that and the spit roasting Mannion was getting.
One thing the last few years has thought us is that you can't just throw anyone in full back.
See Paudie Maher v Galway last year, Paul Murphy KK, Dublins problems without Peter Kelly etc.
Full back is a specialist position e.g. What Mannion did for the first goal was lunacy for a full back, but would be ok at corner or wing back.

Lollipop95

Not long to go now! C'mon Galway, bring Liam home!!