If the Nazis had won WW2...

indioblack

noway12345 wrote: »

Well it took a long time for them to change and some would say they haven't changed much, they're just doing things in other areas than before. If the Nazis were still around then maybe they would have changed also but we'll never know and it's a good thing that we wont.

What makes you suggest that they haven't changed much?

The Magnificent Falcowboys

There's a movie of that book fatherland

noway12345

indioblack wrote: »

What makes you suggest that they haven't changed much?

My earlier examples of Iraq and Afghanistan, some of the stuff they did there with America was disgusting. The lack of tv footage etc has meant a lot of it wasn't exposed.

indioblack

noway12345 wrote: »

My earlier examples of Iraq and Afghanistan, some of the stuff they did there with America was disgusting. The lack of tv footage etc has meant a lot of it wasn't exposed.

Is there a particular reason why you single out the British?

c_man

If the Nazis had won WW2...

Science and tech would be way ahead. So much so that Nazi dominated Earth would be embroiled in a war with the Space Jews.

Egginacup

c_man wrote: »

Science and tech would be way ahead. So much so that Nazi dominated Earth would be embroiled in a war with the Space Jews.

Yeah, but if they kept having book bonfires they never would have learned that F = ma.

CiDeRmAn

The race between the Allies and Germany served as an engine of technological advancement, as did the cold war that followed.
I don't think the Nazis would have made a better go at it if they had won.
On the contrary they might well have turned their attentions inward abd restricted science and free thought.
Japan too benefited in the aftermath of the war, though it is doubtful they needed two cities reduced to radioactive rubble to do it. And the second half of the 20th century became technological titans, as well as economic successes.

Cold War Kid

LadyAthame wrote: »

We would have been gassed my friend.

We would?

jimgoose

"Now that's not quite true," said Kellerman gently. "In Germany we call a spade a spade, and the political police are called political police. Here you call your political police the Special Branch, because you English are not so direct in these matters."

DoYouEvenLift

Don't really care to think about anything other than the technology side of things. I wonder would the world be even more advanced by now had they won? They had already developed prototypes of jets and jet engines. After WW2, as you said, Russians and Americans 'recruited' some of the German scientists so it'd be interesting if it was possible to have a completely genuine analysis of whether they would've been better off sticking with the Nazis had the Nazis won or if they were better off with who they actually went with. But the thing is, it was the war itself that put the Germans into overdrive with regards to engineering new technology. What would've happened if they conquered every country they wanted to? Would the efforts to engineer crazy new ideas really slow down or stop altogether?


I think the Nazis definitely would've been a lot more willing to try very questionable experiments and methods which we, nowadays, would consider barbaric and inhumane. But would these experiments have lead to greater jumps in advancement? Maybe!

Tune in same time next week to find out.

househero

I have never even stopped to think what Europe would be like without the brain drain post war.

Maybe Europe would have landed on the moon.


BUT the millions of Jewish dead during the war could have included somebody with a cure for cancer.

noway12345

indioblack wrote: »

Is there a particular reason why you single out the British?

We speak English, they still rule part of our country. Who else would I have picked to show what would have happened had the Nazis won?

indioblack

noway12345 wrote: »

We speak English, they still rule part of our country. Who else would I have picked to show what would have happened had the Nazis won?

Try Stalin's Russia - it makes a better comparison.

noway12345

indioblack wrote: »

Try Stalin's Russia - it makes a better comparison.

How? What has Russia ever done to us? Do we speak Russian? If the Nazis had won we probably would be speaking German. Right now we're speaking English, it's not our native language in case you didn't know.

indioblack

noway12345 wrote: »

How? What has Russia ever done to us? Do we speak Russian? If the Nazis had won we probably would be speaking German. Right now we're speaking English, it's not our native language in case you didn't know.

I thought one totalitarian state would make a useful example of what might happen.
That's what you wanted, wasn't it? A nation to use as an example.
But that's not what this has been about, has it?

noway12345

indioblack wrote: »

I thought one totalitarian state would make a useful example of what might happen.
That's what you wanted, wasn't it? A nation to use as an example.
But that's not what this has been about, has it?

I used Britain as an example as they had power over us and abused that power in many disgusting ways. That's probably what would have happened if the Nazis had won also.
It's the best example we have, if you don't like it it's not my problem.

IrishTrajan

LadyAthame wrote: »

We would have been gassed my friend.

Hitler was an admirer of the British Empire. Had the Germans won, he wanted to keep the British Empire intact. Likely Ireland would've been a British or German satellite State. Or the US would've shipped us weapons and soldiers in a bid to counter a unipolar Europe, and act as a staging ground for their intervention.

Many of Hitler's commanders (Rommel, Guderian, notably) opposed the genocidal ambitions of Hitler, and desired militarist conflict. What is likely is that after the Germans won the war and settled into relative peace, more moderate elements of the regime would've pushed Hitler and the SS out.

The main difference being we'd trade English for German as the lingua franca.

indioblack

noway12345 wrote: »

I used Britain as an example as they had power over us and abused that power in many disgusting ways. That's probably what would have happened if the Nazis had won also.
It's the best example we have, if you don't like it it's not my problem.

I suspect the Nazis would make the British look like boy scouts.
I would agree, though, that Britain did have power over Ireland and did abuse that power.
Comparing British imperialism with the Third Reich will only take you so far.

noway12345

indioblack wrote: »

I suspect the Nazis would make the British look like boy scouts.
I would agree, though, that Britain did have power over Ireland and did abuse that power.
Comparing British imperialism with the Third Reich will only take you so far.

Well they'd have a tough target to reach! Cutting our population by more than half would have been difficult.

indioblack

noway12345 wrote: »

Well they'd have a tough target to reach! Cutting our population by more than half would have been difficult.

You think so? Two years after the Wansee conference they were closing some camps in eastern Europe - not many people left to "process".

noway12345

indioblack wrote: »

You think so? Two years after the Wansee conference they were closing some camps in eastern Europe - not many people left to "process".

A bit like here in the 1840's and before so.

Fratton Fred

noway12345 wrote: »

A bit like here in the 1840's and before so.

No, it was nothing like Ireland in the 1840s, it is ridiculous to even start to compare the two.

UCDVet

I'm gonna guess, 'World peace'

noway12345

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, it was nothing like Ireland in the 1840s, it is ridiculous to even start to compare the two.

Different methods, same outcome.

indioblack

noway12345 wrote: »

A bit like here in the 1840's and before so.

How many commissions did the Nazis set up to enquire into the disappearance of so many people?
The series of Irish famines and the British governance of Ireland in those years is nothing to be proud of.
But, if your wanting to compare Britain with the Nazis - you may find some who disagree.

Ronin247

We would have had a United States of Europe where Germany made all the rules and France were standing behind them sychophantically kissing ass.
England would be the one dissenting country refusing to take part in the majority of the new programs such as monetary union.
German industry would be strong and any of the smaller nations that tried to compete would be forced to allow German European rules dictate that we musnt compete with Germany or France for large Multinationals business.
Any mistakes made by our European Masters such as investing in property bubbles by German and French Banks would be blamed on the smaller nations and the smaller nations would be bullied into paying the debts of the German and French Banks.
We would have a German European puppet government who would be competing with France to see who could suck up the most to Germany

Wow, things would be so much different.

noway12345

indioblack wrote: »

How many commissions did the Nazis set up to enquire into the disappearance of so many people?
The series of Irish famines and the British governance of Ireland in those years is nothing to be proud of.
But, if your wanting to compare Britain with the Nazis - you may find some who disagree.

Ireland is only one country that suffered at the hands of the British. I think you'll find enough stuff from the many countries they terrorised to show that the Nazis were the choir boys in comparison.

indioblack

noway12345 wrote: »

Ireland is only one country that suffered at the hands of the British. I think you'll find enough stuff from the many countries they terrorised to show that the Nazis were the choir boys in comparison.

Yep, them Nazis were just a grand bunch of lads - hard to compose a sensible reply to such a post.

noway12345

indioblack wrote: »

Yep, them Nazis were just a grand bunch of lads - hard to compose a sensible reply to such a post.

I never said that. You just made it up. The Nazis were psychopathic killers who would have destroyed many countries if they had won - just like the British did.

indioblack

noway12345 wrote: »

I never said that. You just made it up. The Nazis were psychopathic killers who would have destroyed many countries if they had won - just like the British did.

I never said that you did.
Come on, you must know that European colonialism was just that - European.
You want to pick out one former imperial power?
OK, you have.
I've never claimed it was right - it was the way things were.
Once again, comparing the British, past and present, as you have done, to the "psychopathic killers", (your words), of the Third Reich simply won't wash.
The Third Reich wouldn't change, couldn't change. It's behaviour was so savage, in so short a time, that it's extinction was the only outcome that would be acceptable.

noway12345

indioblack wrote: »

I never said that you did.
Come on, you must know that European colonialism was just that - European.
You want to pick out one former imperial power?
OK, you have.
I've never claimed it was right - it was the way things were.
Once again, comparing the British, past and present, as you have done, to the "psychopathic killers", (your words), of the Third Reich simply won't wash.
The Third Reich wouldn't change, couldn't change. It's behaviour was so savage, in so short a time, that it's extinction was the only outcome that would be acceptable.

They could have changed, we don't know. I think it's a fair comparison, just look at what happened in Bengal at the same time as the Nazis were committing their atrocities. Like I said earlier, people would be making excuses for the Nazis now if they had won, just like you are with the British.

indioblack

noway12345 wrote: »

They could have changed, we don't know. I think it's a fair comparison, just look at what happened in Bengal at the same time as the Nazis were committing their atrocities. Like I said earlier, people would be making excuses for the Nazis now if they had won, just like you are with the British.

So you allow the possibility of the Nazi regime to change - but not the British?

noway12345

indioblack wrote: »

So you allow the possibility of the Nazi regime to change - but not the British?

What are you on about? We know what the British regime did, we can only guess what the Nazi regime would have done.

Redshift

Read this a couple of years back which deals with this subject in the context of an alternative outcome where Britain lost and became a satellite state of Nazi Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_%28Sansom_novel%29

Recommend it.

indioblack

noway12345 wrote: »

What are you on about? We know what the British regime did, we can only guess what the Nazi regime would have done.

You've already mentioned Iraq and Afghanistan - so I'm assuming you think they haven't changed.

noway12345

indioblack wrote: »

You've already mentioned Iraq and Afghanistan - so I'm assuming you think they haven't changed.

No, they haven't changed but they could in the future. We don't know if the Nazis would have or not.

alaimacerc

Redshift wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_%28Sansom_novel%29

Oh, I heard about this one. Mainly notable for having a real snit at the Scots Nats in it. (The writer gave a ton of money to Project Fear, unsurprisingly.)

On the topic of crime writers doing "Hitler Wins!" Alt-History, I read SS-GB (referred to earlier in this thread) a long time ago. Wonder if it'd hold up on a reread.

It's a fertile area for fiction, generally. Whole swathes of SF collections on the topic, by some of the more usual suspects.

indioblack

noway12345 wrote: »

No, they haven't changed but they could in the future. We don't know if the Nazis would have or not.

No - and I should think not!
On the other hand, let's not be beastly to the Germans.
In this alternate history, the Nazis triumph. The old guard die off, the nice guys, waiting in the wings, take over.
What must they do?
Wait a few centuries for the bad memories to recede.
Give back all the territories they occupied.
Say sorry - many times.
Then people might start to say nice things about them.
They would have a better chance of redemption than the British - who still cling to their bits of empire.
Ah, but nobody would be fooled by what the Nazis were - anymore than you are convinced by Britain's rehabilitation today.
My monies on the Nazis.

the_syco

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

But would these experiments have lead to greater jumps in advancement? Maybe!

Their inhumane experiments have resulted in great jumps in advancement...!

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Or the US would've shipped us weapons and soldiers in a bid to counter a unipolar Europe, and act as a staging ground for their intervention.

If the US had won, it'd be stupid to let America alone. It being a landmass away from Germany, dropping off some nukes on it wouldn't seem amiss.

Redshift wrote: »

Read this a couple of years back which deals with this subject in the context of an alternative outcome where Britain lost and became a satellite state of Nazi Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_%28Sansom_novel%29

Recommend it.

There's a series coming in the next couple of months, from Netflix, about such a version of events, I think? Amazon did a pilot of "The Man in the High Castle", with Ridley Scott directing? IMDB says it'll be out in 2016.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=namF3emHYes

indioblack wrote: »

In this alternate history, the Nazis triumph. The old guard die off, the nice guys, waiting in the wings, take over.
What must they do?

I wouldn't call Angela Merkel nice, tbh :pac:

Into The Blue

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

...what would the last 70 years have been like in Europe and here as well?

I think we would be nastier but more efficient and better workers - more machine than man really - German in other words.

I reckon some of the harsher elements of the nazi regime would have fallen over time in favour of more liberal politics much like the way the power of the catholic church in Ireland has drifted a way over time.

Imagine if Europe under a nazi regime had use of all those German scientists the US and Russia took for their space programs...

Wouldn't have mattered. By now they would have wiped us out for not being pure Arian.

El Inho

Could you consider Hitler's vision to have somewhat come true with the single currency and a unified Europe.

Some old school literature on a similar topic

https://archive.org/details/battleofdorking00chesrich

Manach

My reading was that there was element of wilful blindness on the majority of the intellectual classes of Germany during that time. Should the Nazis had won, based on my reading of numerous German memoirs of the time and general history in general, that generation of leaders would have been hailed as role models for at least two-three generations before some measure of sanity would have prevailed and a more normal return to German norms re-ascerted itself: albeit in the more Prussian model than the virulent nationalist mode.
On the plus side, "White male privileged" would at least have some measure of fact :rolleyes:

noway12345

indioblack wrote: »

No - and I should think not!
On the other hand, let's not be beastly to the Germans.
In this alternate history, the Nazis triumph. The old guard die off, the nice guys, waiting in the wings, take over.
What must they do?
Wait a few centuries for the bad memories to recede.
Give back all the territories they occupied.
Say sorry - many times.
Then people might start to say nice things about them.
They would have a better chance of redemption than the British - who still cling to their bits of empire.
Ah, but nobody would be fooled by what the Nazis were - anymore than you are convinced by Britain's rehabilitation today.
My monies on the Nazis.

Well we can only guess what the Nazis would have done, we have ample proof that the British continued in their ways up to this day.

I swindled the NSA

El Inho wrote: »

Could you consider Hitler's vision to have somewhat come true with the single currency and a unified Europe.

Hardly given that virtually of the countries occupied by the Nazi's retained their own currencies.

the_syco wrote: »

Their inhumane experiments have resulted in great jumps in advancement...!

Can you name some ?
Most of their experiments were based on pseudoscience and quackery ~ Garbage in = Garbage out

Into The Blue wrote: »

Wouldn't have mattered. By now they would have wiped us out for not being pure Arian.

If they didn't start on each other first ?

What is an Aryan ?
He is as handsome as Goebbles
As streamlined as Goering
As blonde haired and blue eyed as Hitler

bolopapa

I guess i wont be having so many jewish friends as i am now.

dd972

It really sticks in the Brits gullets that Uncle Sam earmarked Germany as the new powerhouse of post WW2 Europe whilst they had to go to Washington and beg for a loan that was only granted grudgingly and at the last minute. :pac:

FloatingVoter

dd972 wrote: »

It really sticks in the Brits gullets that Uncle Sam earmarked Germany as the new powerhouse of post WW2 Europe whilst they had to go to Washington and beg for a loan that was only granted grudgingly and at the last minute. :pac:

Germany was chosen by the British amongst others to provide a bulwark against Stalin in the east. Stalin funnily enough floated the idea of turning Germany into farmland and reducing it's poulation to that of slave labour. A popular idea until someone suggested to Roosevelt / Truman and Churchill that what Stalin actually wanted was a large parking lot / fuel depot for tanks.

Capt'n Midnight

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Germany was chosen by the British amongst others to provide a bulwark against Stalin in the east. Stalin funnily enough floated the idea of turning Germany into farmland and reducing it's poulation to that of slave labour. A popular idea until someone suggested to Roosevelt / Truman and Churchill that what Stalin actually wanted was a large parking lot / fuel depot for tanks.

Actually that was a US plan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

The plan's program, the memorandum concluded, "is looking forward to converting Germany into a country primarily agricultural and pastoral in its character.

Only thing was that Germany wouldn't have been self sufficient in food.

"There is the illusion that the New Germany left after the annexations can be reduced to a 'pastoral state'. It cannot be done unless we exterminate or move 25,000,000 people out of it."

FloatingVoter

^ You're right....Morgenthau vs. Marshall. However, it would have succeeded in working in Uncle Joe's interests. Which would have been to have the Berlin Wall somewhere west of Kerry or failing that...Calais.

feargale

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We wouldn't have been gassed. Our grannys and granddads might have been.

The country would be inhabited by gas men.