FTP question.

niceonetom

Amprodude wrote: »

Did my first A3 race today. It was 95km. I was dropped at 86km but I enjoyed the thrill of racing in an A2/A3 race. Nearly hung on but didn't have the legs after 86km. I went in with the aim of hanging on for as long as I can and did my best. I hope I can finish in the bunch on next race.

Here is my data:

Distance 95.1km
Avg speed 38.0km/h
Max speed: 58.2km/h
Avg power 223 watts.
Normalised power 294 watts.
Max power 1041 watts.
Power Intensity Factor 1.060
Power Training Stress Score 277.8
Avg cadence 98rpm
Max cadence 154rpm
Avg Heart rate 173bpm
Max Heart rate 196bpm

Advice appreciated.

Thanks

Trying to analyse a race on those numbers alone is like trying to understand a story by reading all the words it contains but in alphabetical order - it might be possible to guess at general themes, but not much more.

Ok. Put those numbers to one side for a moment and ask yourself some important questions:

How did you get dropped? What led up to that happening? What mistakes did you make in that race? Did you close gaps that weren't yours to close? Were you poorly positioned in the bunch, using more energy than necessary? Were you gassed every time the road went up? Or were you letting wheels go and having to stay on the power while others could coast down hill? Did you fuel correctly? Are you having trouble recovering after a tough section? etc. etc.

What did you learn today?

These are the kind of questions you need to ask yourself if you want to get better at racing. The numbers come second. The answers may be in there if you provided a full trace of the day's racing and not just totals and averages, but you must be able learn intuitively from the experience of racing itself.

Amprodude

My heart rate always goes up for races but it was higher today than any race in A4. I was probably not used to the intensity of A3/A2 racing.

OK I made some mistakes. I didn't eat enough. Used my gels but didn't use some of the bars I brought.

I went too hard up some of the hills and was only barely hanging on lap after lap on one hill and was caught eventually with a few km to the finish line on this hill. I sheltered myself inside the bunch for the whole race but made few unnecessary hard efforts at times.

I lack long distance mileage also. I wasn't confident with myself today because it was a new level for me but now I think I have the ability to compete with the bunch right to the finish if I got that far in my first A3 race. It's a big step up from A4.

I will improve for next race. Just a bit of inexperience on my behalf.

Amprodude

Amprodude wrote: »

My heart rate always goes up for races but it was higher today than any race in A4. I was probably not used to the intensity of A3/A2 racing.

OK I made some mistakes. I didn't eat enough. Used my gels but didn't use some of the bars I brought.

I went too hard up some of the hills and was only barely hanging on lap after lap on one hill and was caught eventually with a few km to the finish line on this hill. I sheltered myself inside the bunch for the whole race but made few unnecessary hard efforts at times.

I lack long distance mileage also. I wasn't confident with myself today because it was a new level for me but now I think I have the ability to compete with the bunch right to the finish if I got that far in my first A3 race. It's a big step up from A4.

I will improve for next race. Just a bit of inexperience on my behalf.

Can I ask as a racer who wants to get better and improve what should I do to prepare for my next A3 race in two weeks? Besides just go and do it and taking everything I did wrong into account today and not analysing figures, What type of training should I focus on? I was ok with the speed of the race and pace for nearly most of the race today. I'm not asking to provide me with a training plan or anything just what I could focus on training wise. Surely someone on here was in a similar position to me at one time.

JK.BMC

Amprodude wrote: »

Can I ask as a racer who wants to get better and improve what should I do to prepare for my next A3 race in two weeks? Besides just go and do it and taking everything I did wrong into account today and not analysing figures, What type of training should I focus on? I was ok with the speed of the race and pace for nearly most of the race today. I'm not asking to provide me with a training plan or anything just what I could focus on training wise. Surely someone on here was in a similar position to me at one time.

Attack at the start - see what happens. Hopefully a few others will go with you. Maybe a few top juniors will be there.
Honestly, try it. You never know what might happen. If you are caught, try again. And again.
The worst that will happen is that you will get dropped. But at least you tried to race. And look at the power meter when you are finished. Then you can do some analysis.

Amprodude

JK.BMC wrote: »

Attack at the start - see what happens. Hopefully a few others will go with you. Maybe a few top juniors will be there.
Honestly, try it. You never know what might happen. If you are caught, try again. And again.
The worst that will happen is that you will get dropped. But at least you tried to race. And look at the power meter when you are finished. Then you can do some analysis.

At the moment I would like to finish with the bunch and then once I'm capable of that I will try something like that. Would yesterday's race bring me on?

BennyMul

Amprodude wrote: »

At the moment I would like to finish with the bunch and then once I'm capable of that I will try something like that.

you are not going to be able to train for extra distance in 2 weeks this is a long(ish) term focus, for energy conservation is important.

If you are "ok" with the pace for most of the race, then you need to simply need to learn how to ride in the bunch and conserve energy, while you work on the distance aspect of the training,

Always try to ride in the top 20, while actually staying off the front,
this allows you to drift back on drags (keeps the power down) then once over the crest slowly make your way back up, trying to minimize going into the red.

Also its a 90k race, do you need to eat?

manwithaplan

Good carbo intake the night before, good breakfast with some carbs and protein about 3 hours before race (eggs, brown bread, porridge, coffee, fruit, whatever), something small and proteiny about an hour beforehand and a couple of gels for during (maybe with caffeine) should be enough for 90k.

Amprodude

BennyMul wrote: »

you are not going to be able to train for extra distance in 2 weeks this is a long(ish) term focus, for energy conservation is important.

If you are "ok" with the pace for most of the race, then you need to simply need to learn how to ride in the bunch and conserve energy, while you work on the distance aspect of the training,

Always try to ride in the top 20, while actually staying off the front,
this allows you to drift back on drags (keeps the power down) then once over the crest slowly make your way back up, trying to minimize going into the red.

Also its a 90k race, do you need to eat?

Ok I was staying at the tail of the group but tried to go up for the climbs. Climbing is my best point but it was a climb that caught me in the end. I tried to shelter myself behind wheels at all times but went too hard on the climbs. That may have been one of the reasons why I failed at the end. I don't mind descending in the wind because I'm not pedaling but each time I pedaled I tried to shelter myself behind wheels. I wasn't confident in my ability to hold on yesterday but to get that close to hanging on and failing that close really is a killer. Didn't eat alot during the race either. Took 4 gels that was it during the race.

harringtonp

Amprodude wrote: »

Did my first A3 race today. It was 95km. I was dropped at 86km but I enjoyed the thrill of racing in an A2/A3 race. Nearly hung on but didn't have the legs after 86km. I went in with the aim of hanging on for as long as I can and did my best. I hope I can finish in the bunch on next race.

Here is my data:

Distance 95.1km
Avg speed 38.0km/h
Max speed: 58.2km/h
Avg power 223 watts.
Normalised power 294 watts.
Max power 1041 watts.
Power Intensity Factor 1.060
Power Training Stress Score 277.8
Avg cadence 98rpm
Max cadence 154rpm
Avg Heart rate 173bpm
Max Heart rate 196bpm

Advice appreciated.

Thanks

Don't think anybody mentioned it but your FTP should be more than enough to hang in in most A3 races. I haven't done one since this time last year but then it came out at 3.7W/KG and I was comfortable in most of the races I did. In some of the later races when junior numbers thinned that level allowed me ride near the front (once the race calmed) and join forming breaks. It is not enough to get into "key" breaks where riders explode off the front and disappear up the road quickly but certainly enough to get around in a good sized group even on hillier courses.

Your NP of 294 is very high for a race of that length for somebody who is 73KG and just trying to hang in. Looked over race data from last year and in easier ones my NP would be around 250 and in harder ones 280-290 and that is with a weight of 78KG. Would lead one to think that matches were burnt unnecessarily, some good suggestions as to how this could happen were given above.

harringtonp

And a max power of 1041 without contesting a sprint finish ! How do you get to output that type of power when just trying to conserve and hang in ?

Inquitus

harringtonp wrote: »

And a max power of 1041 without contesting a sprint finish ! How do you get to output that type of power when just trying to conserve and hang in ?

Sprinting out of corners will often see me record 1000W+ with the elastic effect in force.

harringtonp

Inquitus wrote: »

Sprinting out of corners will often see me record 1000W+ with the elastic effect in force.

Great that you have it guys. I'd probably be in the 600-800 range catching on out of corners and it usually does the trick. I do notice guys powering out much quicker though.

Amprodude

harringtonp wrote: »

And a max power of 1041 without contesting a sprint finish ! How do you get to output that type of power when just trying to conserve and hang in ?

I did my best to hang in there. A2s were also racing with no handicap. I'm inexperienced in A3. It was my first race at this level. I made mistakes. I hope I can finish in bunch next time.

Amprodude

Is 1000+ watts big power? I thought anything over 1500+ watts would be good power. I'm never consider myself having great power. I will post up everything I did leading up to the race too In the week. I decided to race thur last week as I thought I was going OK on the bike. MOre to follow.

Diarmuid

Amprodude wrote: »

I did my best to hang in there. A2s were also racing with no handicap. I'm inexperienced in A3. It was my first race at this level. I made mistakes. I hope I can finish in bunch next time.

Intensity factor of over 1 in a 95km race sounds like you are underestimating your FTP

manwithaplan

Amprodude wrote: »

Is 1000+ watts big power?

It's pretty good alright, particularly if you can produce it with a good bit of racing already done. I'd say 1,500W, unless you weigh a lot, and if you know what you're doing (a big if), would probably win you most A3 sprints.

Amprodude

Basically I must be doing something seriously wrong in the races so. I must be absolutely messing up somewhere If you think values should be more than enough for me to hang on. I am mentally weak at times though so mind can have a lot to do with it as well. When I burned I'm burned, and when I suffer and struggle and make few attempts to hold on and it is unsuccessful I'm finished then and I'm blown out the back.

Would longer racing intensity have anything to do with it? I
haven't raced a4 in over a month. I already stated what mistakes I made in the race but I did notice that one or two hills caught me in the laps and I consider myself a good climber. I just didn't have the stamina up them.

Log leading up to race:
Sat 16th: moderate spin 110km
Sunday 17th easy to moderate spin 135km
Monday recovery spin 1hr z1 powermeter
Tuesday: OFF
Wednesday: 1:45 moderate spin with 3 x 2min hill repeats.
Thursday 1:30 moderate spin with 6 x 2 min hills repeats.
Friday OFF
Saturday 2hrs light spin z1
Sunday: race

Decided to race after the Thursday thought my form was going well at the time.

Amprodude

Diarmuid wrote: »

Intensity factor of over 1 in a 95km race sounds like you are underestimating your FTP

I have calculated my FTP as 299w. Do you reckon it's more? Most people here have advised me to ignore it during a race and instead brush up on race smartness. That is now my aim.

Inquitus

Amprodude wrote: »

Basically I'm doing something seriously wrong in the races so. I must be absolutely messing up race smartness somewhere If you think values should be more than enough for me to hang on.

Would longer racing intensity have anything to do with it? I already stated what mistakes I made in the race but I did notice that one or two hills caught me in the laps and I consider myself a good climber. I just didn't have the stamina up them.

Log leading up to race:
Sat 16th: moderate spin 110km
Sunday 17th easy to moderate spin 135km
Monday recovery spin 1hr z1 powermeter
Tuesday: OFF
Wednesday: 1:45 moderate spin with 3 x 2min hill repeats.
Thursday 1:30 moderate spin with 6 x 2 min hills repeats.
Friday OFF
Saturday 2hrs light spin z1
Sunday: race

Decided to race after the Thursday thought my form was going well at the time.

Absolute power numbers don't tell the full story, if you recover slowly from big efforts, or struggle to put out big numbers on the final hillock you won't win the race. A good FTP counts for a lot, race smarts counts for a lot, and in Irish racing ability to put out big numbers in the sub 10 minute or even much less range and recover quickly counts a lot more than absolute FTP numbers.

Lusk_Doyle

Amprodude wrote: »

Basically I must be doing something seriously wrong in the races so. I must be absolutely messing up somewhere If you think values should be more than enough for me to hang on. I am mentally weak at times though so mind can have a lot to do with it as well. When I burned I'm burned, and when I suffer and struggle and make few attempts to hold on and it is unsuccessful I'm finished then and I'm blown out the back.

Would longer racing intensity have anything to do with it? I
haven't raced a4 in over a month. I already stated what mistakes I made in the race but I did notice that one or two hills caught me in the laps and I consider myself a good climber. I just didn't have the stamina up them.

Log leading up to race:
Sat 16th: moderate spin 110km
Sunday 17th easy to moderate spin 135km
Monday recovery spin 1hr z1 powermeter
Tuesday: OFF
Wednesday: 1:45 moderate spin with 3 x 2min hill repeats.
Thursday 1:30 moderate spin with 6 x 2 min hills repeats.
Friday OFF
Saturday 2hrs light spin z1
Sunday: race

Decided to race after the Thursday thought my form was going well at the time.

Jesus. Relax. Roll back the self destructive criticism. It was one race. Stop over thinking it and doubting yourself. It's clear (and this is not an insult) that you don't fully understand the whole power scene so why not try to forget the maths and ride the race using race craft (your head). Let others fill gaps, follow wheels, don't surge, shelter unless totally necessary to exert yourself. You are really hampering yourself with this self-castigation of your numbers when you don't fully understand how they work. Back to basics.

Amprodude

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Jesus. Relax. Roll back the self destructive criticism. It was one race. Stop over thinking it and doubting yourself. It's clear (and this is not an insult) that you don't fully understand the whole power scene so why not try to forget the maths and ride the race using race craft (your head). Let others fill gaps, follow wheels, don't surge, shelter unless totally necessary to exert yourself. You are really hampering yourself with this self-castigation of your numbers when you don't fully understand how they work. Back to basics.

True. You are right. Point taken.
Just want to improve.

Billycake

Remember at the end of the day it's supposed to be fun, especially the racing. I find racing the most fun part of it all. The training can be tough mentally and physically when tired but the racing is always fun. I've been using power for 5 years now and while I love analyzing the numbers and graphs, when I race I have a screen set up on my Garmin specifically for racing which doesn't include any power readings. From memory I just have distance, time and speed on it I think. Have fun!!

Lusk_Doyle

Amprodude wrote: »

True. You are right. Point taken.
Just want to improve.

Nothing wrong with wanting to improve. We all want that. I know I do. However, forcing the issue can have an adverse effect on you as you struggle to understand exactly what you are doing "wrong" and what to do "better". I'd forget about the science end of it for now and just ride the races and train. Use the science end of things when you have read the books and are in a position where you know that "If I do x, then the result will be y" and so on. You risk not being able to see the wood from the trees on your current path to enlightenment.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Agree with Lusk Doyles earlier post.

A quick observation at the 15hrs training over 8 days you posted. (exc the race) To me what stands out is a lack of structure and intensity. Really only 18mins of work and thats assuming the hill repeats were done hard.

Easy Z1 riding has its place but its the Z4 and above work that needs attention, especially for racing in Ireland.

Amprodude

Nolan Wonderful Meteorologist wrote: »

Agree with Lusk Doyles earlier post.

A quick observation at the 15hrs training over 8 days you posted. (exc the race) To me what stands out is a lack of structure and intensity. Really only 18mins of work and thats assuming the hill repeats were done hard.

Easy Z1 riding has its place but its the Z4 and above work that needs attention, especially for racing in Ireland.

That 1:45 and 1:30 were at a good pace Wednesday and Thursday over 30 kph/h avg speed with hilly drags and then did the hill repeats. Monday was a recovery spin because I went pretty hard Sunday varying it between medium and hard efforts and I just wanted to spin the lactic acid out of the legs. Saturday length on the bike was too long and should be reduced I think myself in the future. 1 hour may be loads with 1-2 hard efforts. An A1 rider told me that before so I assume he knows his stuff to be at that level. Im experimenting between different plans week end and week out and I still am trying to find the right balence and trying to fit things in around work hours.

Amprodude

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Nothing wrong with wanting to improve. We all want that. I know I do. However, forcing the issue can have an adverse effect on you as you struggle to understand exactly what you are doing "wrong" and what to do "better". I'd forget about the science end of it for now and just ride the races and train. Use the science end of things when you have read the books and are in a position where you know that "If I do x, then the result will be y" and so on. You risk not being able to see the wood from the trees on your current path to enlightenment.

Agreed. From today on I wont be focusing on power values at all during the race. If I sharpen up my racing style a bit, it should help me down the line and I should see an improvement. I got dropped badly in my first A4 race but I learned from it and I improved. I have the same intention for A3 and one day I want to be competing and enjoying my racing at the same time.

Amprodude

Billycake wrote: »

Remember at the end of the day it's supposed to be fun, especially the racing. I find racing the most fun part of it all. The training can be tough mentally and physically when tired but the racing is always fun. I've been using power for 5 years now and while I love analyzing the numbers and graphs, when I race I have a screen set up on my Garmin specifically for racing which doesn't include any power readings. From memory I just have distance, time and speed on it I think. Have fun!!

I will do the same as you if you dont mind me copying your style?:D