Media: Landlords forced to withold deposits until tenants prove water bills paid

Field east

Wanderer78 wrote: »

ah the whole irish water thing has been so badly handled that nearly everybody has their backs up now. for something that should/would benefit us all, what a disaster.

Major mistake not to allow IR to establish the PPN of all property owners and all tenants. After all , all PPN numbers are recorded in a number of departments and especially with the PRTB. We do not like it but it makes perfect sence in order to manage society - especially in relation to fraud, etc.

If Gov have not the PPN of non compliant wage earners and where they work, then how does it plan to make an attachment to any relevant wage situation. If IW has no right to our PPN , surly then it has no right to officially establish where one works or information around one's wage?
The mind boggles.

pwurple

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

LLs risk getting pretty exposed here. The safest thing IMO is to keep the water in the LLs name and increase the rent by that amount

That actually screws people over as well.

I've been caught before with both bins and electricity with domestic tenants, so I generally keep their utilities in my own name, and send copies to the tenants.

Cannot be done with water, as the tenant has allowances etc, which the landlord cannot claim.

emeldc

The_Conductor wrote: »

Apparently the PRTB are in the process of setting up a deposit retention scheme (I'm not sure when it'll go live- but realistically it'll probably be at some stage in 2016). I'm guessing they'll outsource its administration, in a similar manner that they've outsourced other functions to the South Western guys?
They *need* to knock the 'using my deposit for the last month's rent' thing on the head.

Of course, this scheme like everything else will be free for landlords, wont it?

emeldc

pwurple wrote: »

That actually screws people over as well.

I've been caught before with both bins and electricity with domestic tenants, so I generally keep their utilities in my own name, and send copies to the tenants.

Cannot be done with water, as the tenant has allowances etc, which the landlord cannot claim.

I don't want to drag the thread off topic but how can you get caught for your tenants ESB bill. It's not your bill?

Wanderer78

Field east wrote: »

If IW has no right to our PPN , surly then it has no right to officially establish where one works or information around one's wage?
The mind boggles.

i see your logic alright but surely there must be another way to sort this? the ppn was one of the things that bothered me about the process. im very protective of my personal information. i dont want things like my ppn being passed around too easily

pwurple wrote: »

That actually screws people over as well.

i can see further down the road, this is gonna be a headache for both landlords and tenants.

pwurple

emeldc wrote: »

I don't want to drag the thread off topic but how can you get caught for your tenants ESB bill. It's not your bill?

Disconnections when they don't pay and you know nothing about it. Reconnection fees are exorbitant.

The_Conductor

pwurple wrote: »

Disconnections when they don't pay and you know nothing about it. Reconnection fees are exorbitant.

Often its easier (and cheaper) for a landlord to suck on a lemon, pay the outstanding bill- and ensure the electricity (or gas) isn't disconnected. Inevitably the tenant who does this- is the selfsame tenant who doesn't pay their last month's rent- so its not that you can deduct it from that either........

conorhal

godtabh wrote: »

My lease agreement states that all utilities must be paid by the tenant.

I have advised my tenant of this. I have told Irish Water that there is a tenant intuit (but not given any details). My tenant has indicated she wont pay.

I have sent a link to her from the indo about yesterdays announcement. Doubt she will change her mind. Its going to be some mess/argument when she leaves.

Its sickening that I am being dragged into something that is not my remit. If Irish Water want me to act as their debt collector I will be charging them a management fee.

I wonder if it's legally enforcable. Certiantly I can see a constitutional challenge. Wasn't the government's argument that they couldn't force a reassment of upward only rent reviews because it interfeared in constitutional property rights and they could not ammend a private legal contract between two parties?
How is that situation any different to a lease between two parties concerning a private rental property as opposed to the commercial rented sector?

godtabh

conorhal wrote: »

I wonder if it's legally enforcable. Certiantly I can see a constitutional challenge. Wasn't the government's argument that they couldn't force a reassment of upward only rent reviews because it interfeared in constitutional property rights and they could not ammend a private legal contract between two parties?
How is that situation any different to a lease between two parties concerning a private rental property as opposed to the commercial rented sector?

Very good point. To get around it it will probably only apply to new leases.

foggy_lad

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its actually tenant uses water. Doesn't pay bill. Doesn't pay last month's rent. Landlord left to pick up the pieces. Landlord also unable to sell a property- if previous tenants have not paid bill- as Irish Water will now have a lien associated with the property........

Its all in favour of Irish Water. Its definitely not in tenants or landlords interests- this is handing the entire deck of cards to Irish Water.

As far as the water debt goes once the landlord informs irishnwater of the tenant and supplies their name then it is up to Irish water to chase that debt! It will not fall back on the landlords table!

As far as liens on property they will only apply where a property owner fails to pay any debt owed by themselves to irish water! A debt owed by a tenant will not cause or be reason for any lien on a landlords property as long as the landlord informs Irish water of the tenancy and gives the name if the tenant!

Dr_Bill

Every other utility in the state is capable of collecting their bills from the tenant, why is it so difficult a prospect for Irish Water to do this. The tenant is liable for bill fair and square. So if a tenant won't pay can the landlord turn off the water?

beauf

conorhal wrote: »

I wonder if it's legally enforcable. ...

Regardless of legality, its not practical or viable.

The LL has almost no practical/viable means to recover debts from tenants.

foggy_lad

The_Conductor wrote: »

Apparently the PRTB are in the process of setting up a deposit retention scheme (I'm not sure when it'll go live- but realistically it'll probably be at some stage in 2016). I'm guessing they'll outsource its administration, in a similar manner that they've outsourced other functions to the South Western guys?
They *need* to knock the 'using my deposit for the last month's rent' thing on the head.

They have been talking about that deposit retention scheme since the quango was set up! Just more smoke to blow around to mask the complete mess that is Irish water.

foggy_lad

Dr_Bill wrote: »

Every other utility in the state is capable of collecting their bills from the tenant, why is it so difficult a prospect for Irish Water to do this. The tenant is liable for bill fair and square. So if a tenant won't pay can the landlord turn off the water?

Especially when we all know that Irish water is so grossly overstaffed they could work perfectly well with a quarter of the staff!

And no the landlord can't turn off the water without being dragged through the prtb and forced to pay fines and compensation to the tenants

Gatling

Live in an apartment block were not getting metered ,
So If I decided I'm not paying how do they go about cutting off the supply

Cold War Kid

triple nipple wrote: »

When did Ireland become a communist dictatorship?

When did Ireland become like North Korea, the Soviet Union, red China?
It didn't.

The_Conductor

foggy_lad wrote: »

They have been talking about that deposit retention scheme since the quango was set up! Just more smoke to blow around to mask the complete mess that is Irish water.

Its specifically referred to in the draft legislation. Its gaining more substance. Its not just smoke and mirrors any longer. In addition- they are in the process of drafting a new SI repealing and amending the 2004 Act. Things are moving onwards.........

Spanish Eyes

The tenants' names and PPSNs are supplied to PRTB by the Landlord.

The landlord supplies the names of the tenants to IW. (Why the hell can IW not get this information from PRTB?) Anyway....

So, now IW has PPSN and names of tenants. Why can they not attach earnings or SW/RA of the tenants? Surely that is the simplest method. A couple of euro a week won't kill anyone.

Am I right in thinking that the Landlord will only be held responsible if tenant details are not supplied to IW in the first place, or that the property is not registered with PRTB?

Both tenants and landlords will erupt if my thinking above is not correct. No landlord is going to take a hit for IW willingly.

The_Conductor

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that the Landlord will only be held responsible if tenant details are not supplied to IW in the first place, or that the property is not registered with PRTB?

My understanding is that the landlord is automatically responsible if he/she does not supply tenant details to Irish Water. If he/she supplies the details to Irish Water- the onus is on the tenant to pay. If the tenant does not pay- and there are insufficient details to garner their pay and/or social welfare disbursements- then a charge is applied to the property.

In addition- the door is opened in the draft legislation for *any supplier of utilities to a property* to act in a similar manner- it is not just Irish Water who have this right. In exchange for removing the threat of jail from those who don't pay their bills- the utility companies get the option of putting a lien on the property.........

The only difference between Irish Water- and other utility companies- is Irish Water are declared the priority creditor who gets satisfied before any other party from a tenant's deposit. Landlords don't get this preferential treatment- nor does any other utility company. Irish Water get wrapped in cotton wool here.

The whole train of thought is the 100 Euro bribe will get people to sign up- however, frankly- its too little too late- and by shifting the onus onto someone else (the landlord) there is no stick (esp. as the threat of jail etc for non-payment is removed).

Its a mess.

Spanish Eyes

If this goes through..... the only protection a LL has is to add the average IW bill to the rent, and pay it back to the tenant when proof of payment of IW is shown at renewal of the lease. If it's not, LL pays it to IW.

Lease not renewed. Sorted.

Still messy, and it involves a LL saying to a tenant " I do not trust you to pay your utilities!"

What an awful mess altogether.

foggy_lad

The_Conductor wrote: »

My understanding is that the landlord is automatically responsible if he/she does not supply tenant details to Irish Water. If he/she supplies the details to Irish Water- the onus is on the tenant to pay.

Once the Landlord supplies the tenants name to Irish Water and the tenancy is properly registered with the PRTB then the Landlord can't be held responsible for the tenants debt and there can be no liens on any property!

If the tenant does not pay- and there are insufficient details to garner their pay and/or social welfare disbursements- then a charge is applied to the property.

If the tenant does not pay then it is up to Irish Water to chase the tenant and if they are too incompetent to do that properly they cant turn back to take the money from the Landlord once the landlord has supplied the tenants name and pps number to the PRTB!

This is all about getting other people to do the work that the staff in Irish water are supposed to be doing, they are a group of civil servants who have been dumped into Irish Water from other state companies and departments and are grossly overpaid for the work they actually do and now they want to do even less!

Field east

It is time for the IPOA and the Fintan McNameara's association to knock heads together on this one and see how it can be challenged in the court. It is a very serious issue especially if it will include all utilities. The whole thing stinks. Is it a good indication how the typical county council has been managed all along - getting millions of tax payers money annually to repair roads, fix leaks, maintain graveyards, take away bad bends , pay salaries, build new offices,etc, etc, etc,etc anddoing projects that could be done by the private sector in qr of the time

castle2012

I just sold my buy to let property last week . Cant say I'm sorry to see it go . Nothing but hardship keeping tenants. My last set of tenants stole furniture from my house . To much government red tape to . No wonder there's a shortage of rents property s as most landlord s will bail out if they get the chance .

garhjw

PRTB take years to do anything, are at best incompetent but are having their remit and responsibilities expanded.

its actually funny it's so bad.

Pawwed Rig

garhjw wrote: »

PRTB take years to do anything, are at best incompetent but are having their remit and responsibilities expanded.

its actually funny it's so bad.

This exactly. I can see a situation where it will take months for tenants to get deposits back or years in the case of disputes. This organisation should not be given any responsibility never mind a potential couple of billion in deposits to look after.
I have a case still going on with them for a tenant that moved out in 2010!!

foggy_lad

garhjw wrote: »

PRTB take years to do anything, are at best incompetent but are having their remit and responsibilities expanded.

its actually funny it's so bad.

They are being "done over" in the same way the government want the department of social protection staff to work on all the water bill refunds even though they are already overworked and understaffed and being offered very little in the line of added staff or resources to get the job done!

CollyFlower

As was mentioned above, the only solution I can see is to add a couple of euro to the tenents rent, would that be a solution for the LL? ... Spread it over the year, what would it cost to the tenents over a year?

What would happen if all LL's just decided to sell off all their property?

The_Conductor

foggy_lad wrote: »

As far as the water debt goes once the landlord informs irishnwater of the tenant and supplies their name then it is up to Irish water to chase that debt! It will not fall back on the landlords table!

As far as liens on property they will only apply where a property owner fails to pay any debt owed by themselves to irish water! A debt owed by a tenant will not cause or be reason for any lien on a landlords property as long as the landlord informs Irish water of the tenancy and gives the name if the tenant!

The draft legislation does not agree with what you are asserting.

The debt is associated with the property- not the individual. Its also opening the floodgates for all utilities to properties to be treated in the same manner- its not unique to Irish Water. The major difference with Irish Water- is the proposal to allow them purloin the deposit with preferred creditor status. Thats the only difference.

The lien on a property- will be for any utilities used on the property- irrespective of who used the utility. Read the draft outline of the bill. It really is that scarey.

Give Irish Water the tenant's name etc. If the details are insufficient for Irish Water to track them down- then tough- it falls back on the landlord.

The whole principle of he (or she) who has consumed the utility paying- is turned on its head- with the ultimate onus being on the landlord to pay- if/when the tenant does not.

Lets hope sanity prevails and the draft legislation gets binned.

aido79

The_Conductor wrote: »

If the landlord does not forward your details onto Irish Water- the bill is associated with the property- and the landlord is expected to pay. Once the landlord has forwarded your details on to Irish Water- Irish Water are expected to chase you. If they don't- the onus remains on the owner of the property to pay the bill. If the tenant ignores letters (because they are addressed to someone else- or for whatever other reason they may have)- and does not register with Irish Water themselves- they don't qualify for the DPS bribe (100 Euro off their annual bill).

If you do not register- and you've had ample opportunity to do so- the entire bill can come off the deposit- and you don't get the 100 Euro rebate.

The cards are stacked against both landlords and tenants here- the entire deck of cards have been handed over to Irish Water (and indeed- other utility companies will be perfectly happy to piggyback on this arrangement- as it means unpaid bills become secured loans- which is grossly unfair on landlords.

Its quite a remarkable bill- and diminishes any security a landlord might have on their property. A tenant who takes out UPC or Skysports or whatever- and doesn't pay for a year- could run up a bill of thousands- which might bankrupt a deposit- long before any other costs or damage were assessed.

The likely outcome of all of this- and the only sane outcome- would be for landlords to vastly increase the amount of deposits being demanded from tenants.

Its time for both tenants and landlords to unite against this quite remarkable over-reaching piece of draft legislation.

Maybe they should set up protests...oh wait isn't that why Irish Water feel the need to introduce such drastic measures?
This whole Irish Water thing has been blown completely out of proportion and this is just one of the knock on effects of people refusing to pay bills for what they use.

The_Conductor

foggy_lad wrote: »

This is all about getting other people to do the work that the staff in Irish water are supposed to be doing, they are a group of civil servants who have been dumped into Irish Water from other state companies and departments and are grossly overpaid for the work they actually do and now they want to do even less!

The staff of Irish Water were not/are not/never will be civil servants.
It is a new company- with a small residual of staff members who moved over from Bord Gais (itself a private company- now a subsidiary of British Gas).

The vast preponderance of Irish Water staff were recruited- as staff in any company are recruited- through recruitment campaigns on the internet and through private companies.

The vast preponderance of their contact with the public- is via an outsourced contract with a call centre in Cork- and not via their own employees at all.

If you want to bash civil servants- as you obviously do- first off- it would be helpful if you actually got your facts straight- secondly- it would be best if you found an appropriate venue to launch your attack- the Accommodation and Property forum *is not an appropriate venue*.

Please educate yourself rather than going on an uninformed rant- and take it elsewhere.

Regards,

The_Conductor