Autistic child kicked off flight

The Bishop Basher

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Yes, the child was such a threat, United immediately booked her on another flight. With Delta instead.

Apparently Delta have enough compassion and common sense to get the child home safely. And their pilot managed to get through it without diverting for a calm 15 year old watching her DVD.

With the greatest of respect you're not really thinking your position through are you ?

If the child didn't kick off on the Delta flight then why would they need to divert ?

DublinWriter

whupdedo wrote: »

Could the child not have been sedated if she was that much of a risk of exploding with rage and putting other people at risk

And therein is shown the absolute fig pucking ignorance most people have regarding autism.

A meltdown isn't merely a tantrum or naughtiness - it's a mini-nervous breakdown.

United will have their ass handed to them in court.

jaykay74

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Apparently Delta have enough compassion and common sense to get the child home safely. And their pilot managed to get through it without diverting for a calm 15 year old watching her DVD.

That just a poorly argued position I have to say!

galljga1

DublinWriter wrote: »

And therein is shown the absolute fig pucking ignorance most people have regarding autism.

A meltdown isn't merely a tantrum or naughtiness - it's a mini-nervous breakdown.

United will have their ass handed to them in court.

I think you have just won the case for United.

DoctorEdgeWild

DublinWriter wrote: »

A meltdown isn't merely a tantrum or naughtiness - it's a mini-nervous breakdown.

United will have their ass handed to them in court.

I think I would like my flight diverted if someone was having a mini nervous breakdown on board? For their sake and my own. Wouldn't you agree? Even more so if the person who is caring for them has said there is a possibility of violence should this break down occur.


(FWIW, I agree that suggesting the person is sedated is way over the top and displays a lack of understanding of the condition)

bucketybuck

DublinWriter wrote: »

And therein is shown the absolute fig pucking ignorance most people have regarding autism.

A meltdown isn't merely a tantrum or naughtiness - it's a mini-nervous breakdown.

United will have their ass handed to them in court.

Oh dear god.

You don't think a mini-nervous breakdown is a cause for concern on a flight?

Mellifera

Seriously, all it took was a hot meal.. and a little understanding.

Neither of which, apparently the staff of United Airlines have.[/QUOTE]

Pity the mother, (who has been dealing with these type situations for 15 years), didn't have the same understanding of her own child and organise to get something in the airport lounge beforehand or have it organised before she got on the plane...
Unfair to blame the staff for doing their jobs in line with the Airline policies.

The Bishop Basher

DublinWriter wrote: »

United will have their ass handed to them in court.

Will they though ? I suspect it will come down to whether the level of response from the Captain was appropriate or not.

It would be a dangerous precedent for a judge to overrule a pilots decision at a later stage and all the subsequent implications of same.

Certainly will be interesting to see how this pans out.

DublinWriter

bucketybuck wrote: »

Oh dear god.

You don't think a mini-nervous breakdown is a cause for concern on a flight?

In that case, the solution is simple - ban all ASD kids from flying, or even from all public transport.

Parents of ASD kids know the melt-down trigger points and how to avoid them - precisely what this mother was doing.

Melt-downs can be manageable and can be avoidable for ASD kids - precisely what this mother was trying to do.

DoctorEdgeWild

DublinWriter wrote: »

In that case, the solution is simple - ban all ASD kids from flying, or even from all public transport.

Parents of ASD kids know the melt-down trigger points and how to avoid them - precisely what this mother was doing.

Melt-downs can be manageable and can be avoidable for ASD kids - precisely what this mother was trying to do.

The spectrum is so broad that it would be extremely harsh to do this in practice. I think rather than excluding people, exclude certain behaviour, which is what they are doing currently.

Simon Gruber Says

At the end of the day, it's the parents' responsibility to ensure the well being of the child and to provide for her as needed. Relying on other people to do this is not acceptable.

On the other hand, it's the Captain's responsibility for the safety of all on board the aircraft once they cross the door and, if for any reason something that may impact on the safety of passengers comes to his/her attention, it is then their responsibility to deal with it in the safest manner possible, with the least risk of harm coming to those on board.

The Captain was informed that there was a potential safety risk on board the aircraft and acted accordingly. No charges should ever be brought against a commander who responds to a situation in this manner.

bucketybuck

DublinWriter wrote: »

In that case, the solution is simple - ban all ASD kids from flying, or even from all public transport.

Parents of ASD kids know the melt-down trigger points and how to avoid them - precisely what this mother was doing.

Melt-downs can be manageable and can be avoidable for ASD kids - precisely what this mother was trying to do.

I'm perfectly fine with banning ASD kids from flights if they are any type of flight risk. I am also fine with banning every other type of person who could potentially cause a hazard on board a flight. Did you think I wouldn't be?

Flying is not an inalienable human right, if somebody is a flight risk for any reason whatsoever then they can stay on the ground.

The Bishop Basher

DublinWriter wrote: »

In that case, the solution is simple - ban all ASD kids from flying, or even from all public transport.

Exaggerating a postion to make your own seem more reasonable is a straw man argument and a major fail.

DublinWriter wrote: »

Parents of ASD kids know the melt-down trigger points and how to avoid them - precisely what this mother was doing.

Melt-downs can be manageable and can be avoidable for ASD kids - precisely what this mother was trying to do.

I'm sure responsible parents who know how to effectively manage their child's condition will rarely if ever have this problem.

That's not what happened here though so failing to see the relevance of your point ?

irishdude11

Hmmmm....if I am a pilot and the cabin crew comes to me and tells me that the mother of a passenger has informed them that her daughter may have a "meltdown" in-flight and become violent what would I do? "Ah sure it'll be grand don't worry about it...."

OF COURSE you boot them off the plane. There is no room for PC nonsense when it comes to flights these days. As soon as the word meltdown was used and the potential for any type of violent activity was raised it was game over.

orubiru

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Yes, the child was such a threat, United immediately booked her on another flight. With Delta instead.

Apparently Delta have enough compassion and common sense to get the child home safely. And their pilot managed to get through it without diverting for a calm 15 year old watching her DVD.

You seem really enraged by all of this so I don't think you are looking at the situation objectively.

So, lets say that someone brings their 15 year old kid to your place of work. It's all going OK and then they turn round to you and say "listen, my kid might reach Meltdown Point if they don't get a hot meal and might scratch someone". Are you saying that you would have no response or reaction at all to this?

Personally, this would put me on edge. I'd be thinking first of all "what exactly is Meltdown Point" and I'd also be wondering what I am gonna do if I get scratched here, how bad will the scratching be, will I be able to just walk away, am I gonna get fired if I just ignore this and one of our customers ends up getting scratched?"

If my place of work happened to be a metal tube flying through the sky... I think I'd be feeling some degree of unease, anxiety and confusion. I'd be wondering if it might be best to inform the pilot and take steps to ensure the safety of everyone on board.

I will agree with you that the child was probably not a threat in any way.

However, telling the staff on a commercial airline that your child might reach "meltdown point" and start scratching is pretty ill-advised. That kind of thing might just put people on edge, don't you think? How would you expect people to respond when you tell them that your 15 year old is gonna have a meltdown on a commercial flight?

SeaBreezes

Mellifera wrote: »

Seriously, all it took was a hot meal.. and a little understanding.

Neither of which, apparently the staff of United Airlines have.

Pity the mother, (who has been dealing with these type situations for 15 years), didn't have the same understanding of her own child and organise to get something in the airport lounge beforehand or have it organised before she got on the plane...
Unfair to blame the staff for doing their jobs in line with the Airline policies.[/QUOTE]

She did actually,get her child a hot meal in the airport and her child refused to eat it. She also had snacks with her (cold) that the child sometimes eat.

Then before they boarded, she asked if they could get hot food on board and was told yes, hot sandwiches were available.

When hers childs distress started to kick in, she asked for her hot sandwich. Staff forgot about it and had to be reminded twice, when it arrived it was cold.

Meanwhile the child is verbal and howling..
She then asked if she could purchase a hot meal and was refused repeatedly.
Until she insisted. Explaining that the child 'could' have a meltdown that is easily avoided with a little hot food.


Once the child had the hot meal, she settled back into her seat and quietly watched a movie.
Half an hour later they were told they were making an emergency landing.
Of the 10 statements the police took from passengers, there WAS no issue in their eyes.

The child has been flying since she is 6 months old, they are well travelled having been in 22 states and 3 countries, including Paris, France. Without incident.

This is a complete first for the family to be treated this way. The lack of compassion and ignorance in regards a child with a disability is appalling.

RZoran

In the US, the Captain can deny or kick off anybody as he sees fit under the FARs. I don't see the difference between diverting a flight for an autistic teen having a tantrum. Or a regular teen doing the same. He would have had to communicate with a dispatcher on the ground and no doubt they have a medical profession on call. Also this is Spring in the South/MidWest/Rockies and who knows what type of weather he was going to be dealing with without the distraction of this girl. You just known there would have been a big group of people complaining. The airline GOM probably deals with unruly passenger and that is approved by Feds.

SeaBreezes

orubiru wrote: »

You seem really enraged by all of this so I don't think you are looking at the situation objectively.

So, lets say that someone brings their 15 year old kid to your place of work. It's all going OK and then they turn round to you and say "listen, my kid might reach Meltdown Point if they don't get a hot meal and might scratch someone". Are you saying that you would have no response or reaction at all to this?

Personally, this would put me on edge. I'd be thinking first of all "what exactly is Meltdown Point" and I'd also be wondering what I am gonna do if I get scratched here, how bad will the scratching be, will I be able to just walk away, am I gonna get fired if I just ignore this and one of our customers ends up getting scratched?"

If my place of work happened to be a metal tube flying through the sky... I think I'd be feeling some degree of unease, anxiety and confusion. I'd be wondering if it might be best to inform the pilot and take steps to ensure the safety of everyone on board.

I will agree with you that the child was probably not a threat in any way.

However, telling the staff on a commercial airline that your child might reach "meltdown point" and start scratching is pretty ill-advised. That kind of thing might just put people on edge, don't you think? How would you expect people to respond when you tell them that your 15 year old is gonna have a meltdown on a commercial flight?

She was begging for a hot meal. That was all she wanted and to illustrate how the meltdown COULD BE AVOIDED... she asked again.

Id expect the staff to give her the hot food and show a little compassion and allow the child some dignity.

Id expect after the food when the child is sitting calmly and quietly (as her mother said would happen once she got the food) that the flight get to where its going, as the Delta flight somehow managed to do.

Yes, I am enraged about discrimination, lack of compassion, lack of empathy and lack of concern for children with disabilities. As I am sure all right minded people are.. and as are all of the passengers on that flight too.

homerjay2005

billie1b wrote: »

And some airlines dont like to risk the safety of all their passengers and crew for the convenience of an uncontrolable child

this....

either control your child or stay at home.

SeaBreezes

RZoran wrote: »

In the US, the Captain can deny or kick off anybody as he sees fit under the FARs. I don't see the difference between diverting a flight for an autistic teen having a tantrum. Or a regular teen doing the same. He would have had to communicate with a dispatcher on the ground and no doubt they have a medical profession on call. Also this is Spring in the South/MidWest/Rockies and who knows what type of weather he was going to be dealing with without the distraction of this girl. You just known there would have been a big group of people complaining. The airline GOM probably deals with unruly passenger and that is approved by Feds.

Yeah but she DIDNT have a tantrum thats the point, she did nothing unruly at all.

bucketybuck

SeaBreezes wrote: »

She did actually,get her child a hot meal in the airport and her child refused to eat it. She also had snacks with her (cold) that the child sometimes eat.

Then before they boarded, she asked if they could get hot food on board and was told yes, hot sandwiches were available.

When hers childs distress started to kick in, she asked for her hot sandwich. Staff forgot about it and had to be reminded twice, when it arrived it was cold.

Meanwhile the child is verbal and howling..
She then asked if she could purchase a hot meal and was refused repeatedly.
Until she insisted. Explaining that the child 'could' have a meltdown that is easily avoided with a little hot food.


Once the child had the hot meal, she settled back into her seat and quietly watched a movie.
Half an hour later they were told they were making an emergency landing.
Of the 10 statements the police took from passengers, there WAS no issue in their eyes.

The child has been flying since she is 6 months old, they are well travelled having been in 22 states and 3 countries, including Paris, France. Without incident.

This is a complete first for the family to be treated this way. The lack of compassion and ignorance in regards a child with a disability is appalling.

I hope the mothers story in court is more consistent than your representation of it in this thread.

SeaBreezes

Swanner wrote: »

Will they though ? I suspect it will come down to whether the level of response from the Captain was appropriate or not.

It would be a dangerous precedent for a judge to overrule a pilots decision at a later stage and all the subsequent implications of same.

Certainly will be interesting to see how this pans out.

My moneys on their getting their butts kicked. And rightly so.

The Bishop Basher

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Yes, I am enraged about discrimination, lack of compassion, lack of empathy and lack of concern for children with disabilities. As I am sure all right minded people are.. and as are all of the passengers on that flight too.

Understandable in 99.9% of every day situations.

On board an airborne aircraft is part of the remaining 0.1%.

orubiru

SeaBreezes wrote: »

This is a complete first for the family to be treated this way. The lack of compassion and ignorance in regards a child with a disability is appalling.

Do you think it's the first time they have told airline staff that their kid will reach meltdown point and start getting all scratchy?

You honestly think it's OK to essentially tell a flight attendant "you'd better get some hot food over here ASAP or there's gonna be a meltdown and scratching"?

As far as I can tell, the airline provided the food that was requested. The fact that the request was initially declined or not met in a timely fashion has nothing to do with compassion or ignorance.

SeaBreezes

Swanner wrote: »

Understandable in 99.9% of every day situations.

On board an airborne aircraft is part of the remaining 0.1%.

Why, because disabled people shouldnt fly?

Disgraceful. The child was no threat and did nothing wrong.

DoctorEdgeWild

With respect, I think you are missing the most important point.

There was a threat of violent behaviour. (from the mother, regarding the child)

This is grounds to divert/ground a flight these days.

It really is as simple as that.

gctest50

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Until she insisted. Explaining that the child 'could' have a meltdown ...

She threatened someone may get injured if her demands were not met


that's knocking of the door of assault ( you'd need someone qualified for this ...... )

a) a person uses force in relation to another person or property not only when he or she applies force to, but also where he or she causes an impact on, the body of that person or that property;

(b) a person shall be treated as using force in relation to another person if—

(i) he or she threatens that person with its use

The Bishop Basher

SeaBreezes wrote: »

My moneys on their getting their butts kicked. And rightly so.

I sincerely hope you never find yourself on an aircraft where a potentially dangerous situation arises and the pilot has to weigh up the pros and cons between getting the aircraft and pax safely back on the ground and the threat of any subsequent litigation which may negatively impact on him personally.

The time taken to dither could make all the difference.

You really aren't getting the point that an aircraft is not a normal situation.

If we were talking about almost any other environment I think most of us would agree with you but were not.

Calina

SeaBreezes wrote: »

She was begging for a hot meal. That was all she wanted and to illustrate how the meltdown COULD BE AVOIDED... she asked again.

Id expect the staff to give her the hot food and show a little compassion and allow the child some dignity.

Id expect after the food when the child is sitting calmly and quietly (as her mother said would happen once she got the food) that the flight get to where its going, as the Delta flight somehow managed to do.

Yes, I am enraged about discrimination, lack of compassion, lack of empathy and lack of concern for children with disabilities. As I am sure all right minded people are.. and as are all of the passengers on that flight too.

I would have expected the parents to ensure that the child had eaten before getting on the plane. I have been on flights where cabin service has been suspended owing to weather conditions en route. As a result, if a hot meal is critical, it is incumbent on the parents to ensure it happens before getting on the aircraft as it cannot be guaranteed afterwards. Even if hot meals are generally sold on that flight.

In the meantime, you cannot compare the United and Delta flights because clearly, there was different behaviour on both. And decisions about aircraft safety are made not by the mother whose daughter has already caused some concern, but by the captain of the aircraft whose interest is in all the passengers and not just this one. In particular, you do not get to decide one way or the other which is the most appropriate behaviour as you're relying only on reports of what happened. This decision was made by the person who had responsibility for the plane.

Finally, ASD is a very broad spectrum and flying is not, to my knowledge, a problem for many people on it. I would find it regrettable if future policy was made more restrictive purely on the grounds of this case.

The Bishop Basher

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Why, because disabled people shouldnt fly?

Disgraceful. The child was no threat......

Not according to the mother.

orubiru

SeaBreezes wrote: »

She was begging for a hot meal. That was all she wanted and to illustrate how the meltdown COULD BE AVOIDED... she asked again.

Id expect the staff to give her the hot food and show a little compassion and allow the child some dignity.

Id expect after the food when the child is sitting calmly and quietly (as her mother said would happen once she got the food) that the flight get to where its going, as the Delta flight somehow managed to do.

Yes, I am enraged about discrimination, lack of compassion, lack of empathy and lack of concern for children with disabilities. As I am sure all right minded people are.. and as are all of the passengers on that flight too.

This whole situation has NOTHING to do with the child's condition.

The mother made a threat towards the flight staff. She basically said "get us food or there will be a meltdown and maybe scratching".

It has nothing to do with compassion or empathy or discrimination or disabilities.

You can't expect to board an aircraft and then proceed to tell the flight crew that they may be scratched and have to deal with a "meltdown" if they don't obey your specific instructions.

The Delta flight was fine probably because they didn't tell the staff "get us a hot meal now or face the consequences".

Cessna_Pilot

Its all about the threat of violence. You can sugar coat all you like, this has nothing at all to do with discrimination whatsoever.

Adamocovic

I think it's a bit harsh on the pilot. His job is the safety of the entire aircraft and passengers and it appears he acted accordingly.

I don't agree that the airline acted inappropriately and no matter how much we would like everyone to be trained in dealing with people with every sort of disabilitiy in the world that is not the case, in most situations its up to the parent or guardian to be prepared.

Ihave no idea what the tantrum was like so I can't comment too much but surely it must of been a big enough concern for the pilot to choose an emergency landing.

Reoil

Chloris wrote: »

I'm not guessing you're the type of person who would hold a door open for somebody in a wheelchair...

Oh what the actual ****e are you talking now?

Gallagher1

I'm not quite sure how accurate the report of the whole incident is but I think people need to realise:

1) At 36000 feet in the air on an airplane, there is absolutely no room for any type of risk which could put flight/passenger safety at risk.

2) This child was 15. A fifteen year old child(Autistic or not) could cause serious physical harm to herself or other passengers if she has a meltdown, something which the Mother herself admitted was quite possible.

3) There is a strong possibility that the Pilot acted prematurely but if he/she has any doubt over safety, they are fully entitled to remove anyone/anything from that flight.

When the Mother says that they were kicked off the flight "because of the fear of autism" I think she is really sensationalizing what the pilot was concerned about. Countless amounts of autistic people fly every year, pilots are not "afraid of autism", they are afraid of something putting a flight/passengers at risk, something which the Mother said her child could well do.

Personally I think the United staff acted prematurely but it most certainly was not 'discrimination' on their part as other posters seem to believe.

Red Alert

There is also the issue that a child having a very noisy/loud/aggressive meltdown has the potential to cause air rage in another passenger. Regardless of rights and wrongs of this, the situation can then turn quite dangerous very quickly.

There is also the lesser problem that other passengers buy their tickets in the assumption that they will get to quietly enjoy their flight. I'm a fairly placid guy but a meltdown going on for longer than 30 minutes would be hard going.

Reoil

SeaBreezes wrote: »

The mother simply warned that if she had a meltdown there was a possibility of someone getting accidentally scratched. This could easily be averted by a hot meal.

"Accidently" my arse. The mother warned of physical danger to other passengers.
What if I said I had a knife and will use it if I don't get a hot meal?
Do I stay on the flight because I "don't do anything"?
Autism or not, a threat is a threat.

And yes, I am related to a person with autism.

Reoil

SeaBreezes wrote:

The mother simply warned that if she had a meltdown there was a possibility of someone getting accidentally scratched.

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Thats the point, there WASNT any danger..

Re-read those two sentences, and then stop talking bollocks.

Reoil

Chloris wrote: »

Right, so epileptics shouldn't fly either. No problem, got it.

How the **** does having an epileptic fit pose a risk to other passengers?

Reoil

SeaBreezes wrote: »

The child was no threat and did nothing wrong.

1. Did you read what happened?
2. Do you reread what you type?

The delta flight would have been told in advance of the girls needs. If she needed a hot meal, I bet there was one ready and waiting for her. And if delta didn't have a hot meal faculty, that family would have been put on another airlines flight that did.

If only the parents had had the foresight to notify United of their daughters needs. The airline could have notified the pilot and flight attendants accordingly.

Think this is more about the money now than anything else and sadly, they will probably end up with a tidy sum.

roadrunner16

Smart ass comment that doesn't help this discussion

Reoil

Deleted due to quoting the above

JumpShivers

I'm actually pretty confused about why the family were taken off the flight, to be honest.

It says that after the girl got her hot meal, she was sitting quietly with a tablet... But why did the pilot announce diverting I've heard plenty of babies crying, even adults acting up, but what exactly did the daughter do?


Some of the comments here are absolutely appalling.

coylemj

JumpShivers wrote: »

I'm actually pretty confused about why the family were taken off the flight, to be honest.

The mother asked for a hot meal for the child, it was refused because they were travelling in economy and on that particular flight the airline does not serve hot food in economy ('coach' in the US). The mother then told the flight attendant that the child was liable to go into meltdown and scratch someone if she didn't get a hot meal so they gave the kid the meal but in parallel a decision was taken to land the plane and boot them off.

We can argue about rights for disabled people until the cows come home but the mother effectively said: 'give my kid a hot meal or someone is going to get hurt.'

Airline crews don't take kindly to threats and rightly so.

JumpShivers

coylemj wrote: »

The mother asked for a hot meal for the child, it was refused because they were travelling in economy and on that particular flight the airline does not serve hot food in economy ('coach' in the US). The mother then told the flight attendant that the child was liable to go into meltdown and scratch someone if she didn't get a hot meal so they gave the kid the meal but in parallel a decision was taken to land the plane and boot them off.

We can argue about rights for disabled people until the cows come home but the mother effectively said: 'give my kid a hot meal or someone is going to get hurt.'

Airline crews don't take kindly to threats and rightly so.

Yeah, I got all of that. But I disagree, how is it a threat?

No one but the girl's parents can determine whether she as a threat or not.
With an autistic child, these things such a needing a hot meal, could be unexpected. You always need to think ahead. I'm sure, like any other autistic child, once she got her meal, she would be content. I woud think that her parents would know that the child would be calm once she got her meal.

It's a lot of drama for something so small.

Reoil

coylemj wrote: »

'give my kid a hot meal or someone is going to get hurt.'

JumpShivers wrote: »

Yeah, I got all of that. But I disagree, how is it a threat?

It is an implied high risk of physical attack to another passenger in a confined space.
This is enough to remove the passenger from the aircraft, mental condition or not.

JumpShivers

Reoil wrote: »

It is an implied high risk of physical attack to another passenger in a confined space.
This is enough to remove the passenger from the aircraft, mental condition or not.

High risk? Really?
It was an easy enough situation to resolve. The girl could've gotten her meal, and all would be okay and the journey would've continued. It's really not that complicated.

JumpShivers

Just got this from an article.



'How about we wait for her to have a meltdown, she'll be crying and trying to scratch in frustration. I don't want her to get to that point.' // Quoted by her mother.


It is a common thing for autistic children to scratch themselves when agitated. It DIDN'T said it was towards another passenger.

bucketybuck

JumpShivers wrote: »

High risk? Really?
It was an easy enough situation to resolve. The girl could've gotten her meal, and all would be okay and the journey would've continued. It's really not that complicated.

And what if it wasn't? What if the meal still wasn't right and the kid escalated further?

Thats the question the captain needs to consider and he doesn't have any room for error, he needs to be absolutely sure that the flight is safe for all passengers. What if the hour long howling from the kid returned but even worse?

Once the mother told the staff that her child was a real risk of physical violence then all your hindsight no longer mattered. If the captain was concerned about the passenger then they needed to be gone from the plane, end of story.