Marriage Referendum

silverharp

Michael OBrien wrote: »

This is off topic. This is not about whether Islam is true, or their god is good, it is about the referendum. Please respect that and don't derail it.

if somebody claims something to be true and its the basis of their argument, then my starting point has to be to debunk it. Notice in the christianity forum the views are more varied and the debating points dont start and end with "the bible says..."

If every muslim argument for issues like this or apostasy etc , is the quran says , then it demands a response of its a man made book.

Michael OBrien

old_aussie wrote: »

Really?

Let me make up some crap stastics that suit my argument, no, let me actually do some logical thinking and do some research.

http://news.discovery.com/human/about-2-of-americans-are-gay-110411.htm


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2220120/White-people-likely-gay-Huge-study-reveals-highest-proportion-homosexual-people-African-American-community.html#ixzz3av9bcycp

You need better sources than those if you want to call that 'research'. did you actually read them? Doubt it. Even those polls go up to almost 5% and that is in the USA, where bigotry is still rife. They also acknowledge that it does not take into account those not coming out, which is still a big issue.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/what-percent-of-the-population-is-gay-more-than-you-think-5012467/?no-ist

But hey, if 75 million gay muslims are more to your taste, then how does that affect my argument in the least in giving them equality.

UPDATE: since the referendum passed, I wish to thank any muslims who supported the gay vote. One step towards equality. Peace.

katydid

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm in favor of gay marriage but I want to point out that Islam is crystal clear on the issue.

Some Muslims may support gay marriage, probably most in western countries (well the young ones anyway) but if they do they're not being true to their faith.

If they support CIVIL marriage, what has that got to do with their faith?

confusedquark

Spirogyra wrote: »

Where is your evidence that there is any day of judgment or any hereafter? Why would a Creater choose to send his or her message to a 6th Century Arab? How do you know that there is any creator? Where is your evidence? This is the 'reason' that I refer to, isn't it a very illogical thing to do? send your commandments through a 6th century Arab and then punish those who disobey? A God who punishes people, for feelings which he or she gave them, that's not a God I could love or would want to obey.

It's been consistently documented that in the region of 10%, it could be 8 or 9 , have gay, bisexual or gender variant -tendencies- , which may or may not be expressed. This is how they are born, and any God who created people this way, but punishes them for acting upon them, who sanctions stoning of men and women, is a sadist, and not worthy or worship.

Adultery causes trauma, for the spouse and children . Loving relationships, are about love and stability. They harm nobody, the only aggrieve others when they are not accepted. However I don't believe it is the role of the state to punish people who behave this way, with flogging or execution, as many Islamic states do. Moral behaviour should be encouraged, but it's not the role of the state to punish.

Evidence, proof, reasons, actions of God etc. have been discussed ad nauseam in other threads, feel free to contribute on those threads if you want to bring something new to those discussions.

We all have a variety of tendencies/desires for certain things which are not morally/ethically/physically good for us - be it for lust, greed, power, junk food, laziness, etc. From an Islamic perspective, we have to face those challenges on a daily basis and to suppress a lot of our tendencies/desires in the test that this life is. As I said, we believe that Allah subhana wa'tala has set the bar on what's morally right and wrong and we go by that. I'm not here to scientifically prove anything - because the meaning of our existence ultimately boils down to individual beliefs once we've had a look at the supposed origins of the universe and tallied it with whatever religious scriptures we have read.

confusedquark

katydid wrote: »

If they support CIVIL marriage, what has that got to do with their faith?

People use faith as a moral compass, to help define what is right and wrong. Homosexual relationships of any nature - be they casual, civil partnerships, civil marriages, religious marriages, are all considered unacceptable in Islam (and many other religions). So by supporting homosexuality in any of those forms, one would be going against their faith.

katydid

confusedquark wrote: »

People use faith as a moral compass, to help define what is right and wrong. Homosexual relationships of any nature - be they casual, civil partnerships, civil marriages, religious marriages, are all considered unacceptable in Islam (and many other religions). So by supporting homosexuality in any of those forms, one would be going against their faith.

But no one is asking any Muslim or Christian to support gay marriage or anything to do with homosexuality for themselves. They were being asked to give people who wished to avail of marriage to be able to do so - why would you deny something to someone just because YOU disagree with it?

Michael OBrien

confusedquark wrote: »

People use faith as a moral compass, to help define what is right and wrong. Homosexual relationships of any nature - be they casual, civil partnerships, civil marriages, religious marriages, are all considered unacceptable in Islam (and many other religions). So by supporting homosexuality in any of those forms, one would be going against their faith.

A lot of the taboo is not homosexuality, but sexual practices that don't lead to procreation. People are quite selective when it comes to judgement on the activities of others, and tend to lump this activity with the attraction of the same gender. This is not fair. There is nothing to stop a devout homosexual from avoiding sexual activities that are viewed as immoral while still living with a partner, in a state recognised union, adopting kids or rearing kids from a previous failed marriage, etc.

Safehands

Michael OBrien wrote: »

A lot of the taboo is not homosexuality, but sexual practices that don't lead to procreation. People are quite selective when it comes to judgement on the activities of others, and tend to lump this activity with the attraction of the same gender. This is not fair. There is nothing to stop a devout homosexual from avoiding sexual activities that are viewed as immoral while still living with a partner, in a state recognised union, adopting kids or rearing kids from a previous failed marriage, etc.

Michael, you have to live in the real world, and that scenario is not really the real world.

alwald

Safehands wrote: »

Michael, you have to live in the real world, and that scenario is not really the real world.

Can you define what do you mean by "real world" in this context?

Safehands

alwald wrote: »

Can you define what do you mean by "real world" in this context?

Glad to, two gay men (or women) who love each other, and live together, are highly unlikely not to experience extreme desires from time to time, to express their love in a physical way. The chances of two such people not engaging in some sexual expression is very remote, I would have thought.

alwald

Safehands wrote: »

Glad to, two gay men (or women) who love each other, and live together, are highly unlikely not to experience extreme desires from time to time, to express their love in a physical way. The chances of two such people not engaging in some sexual expression is very remote, I would have thought.

are you against it, in favor of it or do you hold any other opinion?

Safehands

alwald wrote: »

are you against it, in favor of it or do you hold any other opinion?

I have to admit that I believe "marriage" is a union between a man and a woman. Unfortunately I too live in "the real world" and the people have decided so we must go along with that. I just wonder what is next, where do we go now?

katydid

Safehands wrote: »

I have to admit that I believe "marriage" is a union between a man and a woman. Unfortunately I too live in "the real world" and the people have decided so we must go along with that. I just wonder what is next, where do we go now?

Do we have to go anywhere?

alwald

Safehands wrote: »

I have to admit that I believe "marriage" is a union between a man and a woman. Unfortunately I too live in "the real world" and the people have decided so we must go along with that. I just wonder what is next, where do we go now?

Your belief wasn't a barrier that stopped you from accepting "the real world", I really admire this attitude, a lot of people that I know are asking themselves the same question as yourself, where do we go now? I don't think that we are going anywhere further really, marriage has been identified as a union between 2 people regardless of their gender and all couples who decide to marry will benefit from the same rights, it's no big deal as far as I can see, where do you think we are going? what are your fears?

Safehands

alwald wrote: »

Your belief wasn't a barrier that stopped you from accepting "the real world", I really admire this attitude, a lot people that I know are asking themselves the same question as yourself, where do we go now? I don't think that we are going anywhere further really, marriage has been identified as union between 2 people regardless of their gender and all couples who decide to marry will benefit from the same rights, it's no big deal as far as I can see, where do you think we are going? what are your fears?

With the departure of organised religions from our society, where do our young people go for moral guidance? I suppose that would be one of my biggest fears.

alwald

Safehands wrote: »

With the departure of organised religions from our society, where do our young people go for moral guidance? I suppose that would be one of my biggest fears.

Guess what, the same people who talked to me about fear (some of my friends) mentioned the same issues as yourself, religion, youth, where are we heading now.....my answer is quite simple, monotheistic religions will be always there, they survived centuries and will continue surviving, these religions are strong there is no doubt about it, our era will come to an end just like most eras in the past, it will be replaced by something else, look at the roman empire for example, they ruled a big chunk of Europe, middle east and north Africa for centuries, they had their own laws, their own taxation system, their own government, their own culture and so on, everything disappeared and got replaced and here we are now . just my own little opinion.

Safehands

alwald wrote: »

Guess what, the same people who talked to me about fear (some of my friends) mentioned the same issues as yourself, religion, youth, where are we heading now.....my answer is quite simple, monotheistic religions will be always there, they survived centuries and will continue surviving, these religions are strong there is no doubt about it, our era will come to an end just like most eras in the past, it will be replaced by something else, look at the roman empire for example, they ruled a big chunk of Europe, middle east and north Africa for centuries, they had their own laws, their own taxation system, their own government, their own culture and so on, everything disappeared and got replaced and here we are now . just my own little opinion.

There is one big difference. Education of the masses. So it's not quite the same.

alwald

Safehands wrote: »

There is one big difference. Education of the masses. So it's not quite the same.

Religion is a belief that is acquired mainly during the childhood and it's taught mainly through family members.
Education has nothing to do with faith, how can education affect religion?

Spirogyra

When people are exposed to different points of view, different way's of life, and encouraged to ask questions, it can lead a modification of religious viewpoints, even if by osmosis.....

katydid

alwald wrote: »

Religion is a belief that is acquired mainly during the childhood and it's taught mainly through family members.
Education has nothing to do with faith, how can education affect religion?

Education, if done properly, teaches one to think critically and to be able to find out information for oneself. Of course this would affect how one approaches something like religion.

_Brian

Safehands wrote: »

With the departure of organised religions from our society, where do our young people go for moral guidance? I suppose that would be one of my biggest fears.

How about they get it from their damn parents who's responsibility it really is. !

Seriously, society wants to export all it's responsibility onto whoever !!

Michael OBrien

Safehands wrote: »

Michael, you have to live in the real world, and that scenario is not really the real world.

Are you saying that you believe two gay men cannot help themselves and HAVE to engage in that particular type of sexual activity?.
That would be like saying that a man cannot refrain from drinking to excess, or eating to the degree of gluttony.
There is more to life than intercourse, and relationships give more than that to a person or persons, regardless of gender.

Michael OBrien

Safehands wrote: »

Glad to, two gay men (or women) who love each other, and live together, are highly unlikely not to experience extreme desires from time to time, to express their love in a physical way. The chances of two such people not engaging in some sexual expression is very remote, I would have thought.

Some sexual expression is not the issue, I never said they cannot touch each other, only to avoid certain forms of sex, that involves penetration.

katydid

Michael OBrien wrote: »

Some sexual expression is not the issue, I never said they cannot touch each other, only to avoid certain forms of sex, that involves penetration.

And the chances of that happening are...?

katydid

Michael OBrien wrote: »

Are you saying that you believe two gay men cannot help themselves and HAVE to engage in that particular type of sexual activity?.
That would be like saying that a man cannot refrain from drinking to excess, or eating to the degree of gluttony.
There is more to life than intercourse, and relationships give more than that to a person or persons, regardless of gender.

Drinking or eating to excess is not the same as showing normal sexual affection towards one's life partner. You have a very strange view of the sexual expression of love.

alwald

Spirogyra wrote: »

When people are exposed to different points of view, different way's of life, and encouraged to ask questions, it can lead a modification of religious viewpoints, even if by osmosis.....

katydid wrote: »

Education, if done properly, teaches one to think critically and to be able to find out information for oneself. Of course this would affect how one approaches something like religion.

I am not sure that education will contribute to the disappearance of religion completely, yes it will make people think more and ask questions however there will still be religious people, maybe more than ever before, religion is the only answer to questions related to death and the after life, we live in a lucky continent in which most of us are safe, eat and live, there are very few natural disasters and catastrophes, if things change then no matter how educated the people are they will still turn to religion.

katydid

alwald wrote: »

I am not sure that education will contribute to the disappearance of religion completely, yes it will make people think more and ask questions however there will still be religious people, maybe more than ever before, religion is the only answer to questions related to death and the after life, we live in a lucky continent in which most of us are safe, eat and live, there are very few natural disasters and catastrophes, if things change then no matter how educated the people are they will still turn to religion.

Being educated and learning to think doesn't conflict with religious belief, so I'm not sure why anyone would think it would lead to the disappearance of religion.

Safehands

Michael OBrien wrote: »

Are you saying that you believe two gay men cannot help themselves and HAVE to engage in that particular type of sexual activity?.
That would be like saying that a man cannot refrain from drinking to excess, or eating to the degree of gluttony.
There is more to life than intercourse, and relationships give more than that to a person or persons, regardless of gender.

I don't ageee Michael. I think it would be more like saying a man cannot drink, even moderately or eating small amounts of the food he really likes.

Michael OBrien

Safehands wrote: »

With the departure of organised religions from our society, where do our young people go for moral guidance? I suppose that would be one of my biggest fears.

Well that is a very good question. Worthy of its own thread to be fair. I would be happy to discuss it with you on that thread if you desire.
Morality is often redefined by different viewpoints on our relationship with one another and, in the case of many religions, higher and lower beings. Perhaps a change of perspective is required to discuss morality within the new paradigm that we are beginning to see develop. I too worry about how this develops as the new system has not been given the support structure by our society it needs yet, while the old system falls into disuse, creating a bit of a vacuum.

Michael OBrien

katydid wrote: »

Drinking or eating to excess is not the same as showing normal sexual affection towards one's life partner. You have a very strange view of the sexual expression of love.

Perhaps, I have no need for such things myself, so you are saying other people cannot control themselves?