Would you be upset if your family or best friend vote No to marriage referendum

road_high

mark26ireland wrote: »

Why?! Its not like its a personal attack on someone if they vote no!! I personally am on the fence when it comes to same sex parents

Course it's personal ffs. Someone voting no to you having equal rights because of your sexuality. How much more personal do you want it to be?
And are we voting on same sex parenting, news to me?

mark26ireland

tomato1234 wrote:

We are talking about the marriage now. So there is no need to mix up the topic.

Sorry, same sex marriage i am all for. Should have never been an issue

mark26ireland

My bad folks. Marriage i am all for. I didnt know this thread was solely for that

tomato1234

Please vote yes for better human right! Better economy! A fair Ireland!

Vojera

mark26ireland wrote: »

My bad folks. Marriage i am all for. I didnt know this thread was solely for that

That's all the referendum is about too, but some people keep trying to confuse the issue.

Aard

wakka12 wrote: »

Id like to see a poll made on here as to what people predict the voting numbers on each side of the referendum outcome to be.
I think the Yes side will win by a very very marginal 1-3% percentage points.

If I were a betting man.... 60% No and 40% Yes.

I really don't see it padding, what with the mass apathy and conflation of parenting with marriage.

Zhane

Aard wrote: »

If I were a betting man.... 60% No and 40% Yes.

I really don't see it padding, what with the mass apathy and conflation of parenting with marriage.

I don't see it passing either. I know that is very negative view to have. But there is a very real possibility. My expectations are very low.

J_E

It should never have been a referendum in the first place...

Zhane

J_E wrote: »

It should never have been a referendum in the first place...

Agreed. It is what it is though. I really hope I'm proven wrong.

emuhead

I don't know of any in my family or close friends voting no, but what I personally find hard to deal with is the apathy. It would be nice to feel some explicit support from straight friends and family that I am out to. Sometimes I wonder what's the point posting on social media about the referendum. I'm in my 30s and I see plenty of new baby photos, weddings among my friends/ family over the past few years. It's hard when you make an effort to celebrate others' lives and when you need something, there's little back. Some of my friends and family seem to be so wrapped up in their lives and young families that there's no room for passion / interest in the rights of people like me. Sorry for the moan it's just this referendum is getting to me. I Expected a better response I guess.

noonoo104

I've no problem with gay people getting married, adopting children and I believe they should be treated equally in society. But if there fighting for the right to be treated the same, they shouldn't have a special day (pride) to celebrate there uniqueness ðŸ˜

Zhane

emuhead wrote: »

I don't know of any in my family or close friends voting no, but what I personally find hard to deal with is the apathy. It would be nice to feel some explicit support from straight friends and family that I am out to. Sometimes I wonder what's the point posting on social media about the referendum. I'm in my 30s and I see plenty of new baby photos, weddings among my friends/ family over the past few years. It's hard when you make an effort to celebrate others' lives and when you need something, there's little back. Some of my friends and family seem to be so wrapped up in their lives and young families that there's no room for passion / interest in the rights of people like me. Sorry for the moan it's just this referendum is getting to me. I Expected a better response I guess.

I feel the same as you, I'm genuinely scared to bring the topic up incase i don't like the answer as proved by my story about my cousin posted above. I've been out for 10 years now, and Ive never felt as low and down as I do right now. I can't wait till it is over.

Zhane

noonoo104 wrote: »

I've no problem with gay people getting married, adopting children and I believe they should be treated equally in society. But if there fighting for the right to be treated the same, they shouldn't have a special day (pride) to celebrate there uniqueness ðŸ˜

If my feels are correct about the result, Pride will be even more important.

pl4ichjgy17zwd

Zhane wrote: »

Ive never felt as low and down as I do right now. I can't wait till it is over.

This. I've never felt so sick in my life. I really worry that some very vulnerable person could end up hurting themselves over all this.

emuhead

Crew Crooked Oarlock wrote: »

This. I've never felt so sick in my life. I really worry that some very vulnerable person could end up hurting themselves over all this.

Sending you a virtual hug, and Zhane. Take care.

SpaceTime

To be perfectly honest, yes I would be. I'm seeing people's true colours - some I like, some I don't.

Unfortunately, several people have really lost my respect over this, probably permanently. I'll just never see them the same way again.

Others have surprised me and gained a lot of respect.

That's life though! At least now I know what they're really like.

SpaceTime

Zhane wrote: »

I feel the same as you, I'm genuinely scared to bring the topic up incase i don't like the answer as proved by my story about my cousin posted above. I've been out for 10 years now, and Ive never felt as low and down as I do right now. I can't wait till it is over.

Don't worry too much ! I honestly think for every disappointment there are ten pleasant surprises! I'm taking a lot of heart in the fact that almost the entire body politic across the full spectrum of parties is on the Yes side! That's actually shockingly progressive by American or European standards!

emigrate2012

haven't read all the thread, but anybody who has read the booklet, itself a small change in the wording of the referendum, that's all.civil parterniship is already a thing, anyone who votes no is simply being an idiot.
Equality is wath its about, ffs,it's not a big deal.
Highest turn out for an election guaranteed. 70/80% in favour I'd expect..
As for the posters saying " every child deserves a mother and father" trying to confuse the issue.
They should be ashamed of themselves,vote yes,its put simply the right choice.

Aard

noonoo104 wrote: »

I've no problem with gay people getting married, adopting children and I believe they should be treated equally in society. But if there fighting for the right to be treated the same, they shouldn't have a special day (pride) to celebrate there uniqueness ðŸ˜

Oops! Sorry about that! A tradition that began decades ago in a time when homophobia was rife and many laws conspired against gay people. And no gay person has ever had any bad word to say about parades. I'll bring it up at the next AGM of The Gay Community -- we're actually an incorporated legal entity now. And thankfully every single gay person ever thinks the exact same way, so sweeping generalisations are completely appropriate.

Annasopra

Aard wrote: »

If I were a betting man.... 60% No and 40% Yes.

I really don't see it padding, what with the mass apathy and conflation of parenting with marriage.

I dont agree there is Mass apathy at all.

Last night I had teams of 40 canvassers in Bray/Greystones/Wicklow. There was 80 canvassers turned up in one small part of Dublin. There was 7 canvssses going on in Cork. The canvass numvers are swelling all the time.

The doorstep responses in Wicklow are showing that 65 - 90% are saying they will vote yes.

Annasopra

If anyone is really worried about this referendum passing then join the canvass. There is still time. Its a very positive experience. Posting on social media is not as effective.

www.yesequality.ie/canvass

spurious

I still think there are more decent Irish people than hateful bigots.

The bigots make a lot of noise on social media with their multiple accounts and mutual thanks whoring, but they are like the Iona Loleks, only a small group in reality.

Annasopra

spurious wrote: »

I still think there are more decent Irish people than hateful bigots.

The bigots make a lot of noise on social media with their multiple accounts and mutual thanks whoring, but they are like the Iona Loleks, only a small group in reality.

I genuinely don't believe all no voters are hateful bigots. And it doesnt help us calling them that.

timetogo

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I genuinely don't believe all no voters are hateful bigots. And it doesnt help us calling them that.

I don't think he did. I don't think all no voters are hateful bigots either. But I'd say any hateful bigot I do know (about 2 people admittedly) is not voting yes. I do know other no voters that have real religious beliefs.

Vojera

timetogo wrote: »

I do know other no voters that have real religious beliefs.

Similarly, I know a lot of yes voters who have strong religious beliefs as well. They go to Mass, pray every day etc. etc., but as far as they're concerned, a) religious marriage is not affected, so no reason to vote against it, and b) their interpretation of their own faith is that God is based on love and acceptance, and that voting yes will make things easier for their fellow human beings, so of course it's the right choice.

It's interesting how people adhering to the same religion can have such differing opinions. My mam was even telling me that the priest at home read a letter from the bishop at Mass last week (obviously urging a 'no' vote), but throughout it he kept saying that this was from the bishop and that his personal opinion did not agree with it.

floggg

floggg wrote: »

Couldn't you at least ask her to abstain?

Exactly, there is a third option.

I could honestly understand the devout Roman Catholic who is against ALL non-RC marriage not being in favour of this. If there was a referendum on any topic that went against their core beliefs, they would vote "no". I would respect that person and their right to their own beliefs, even if they are completely divergent to my own.

But this is where it gets nasty ... rather than just stepping back and saying "same sex marriage is against my beliefs but this referendum does not affect me in any way and has nothing to do with me", a lot of the "no" voters appear to want to actively block a group of people from gaining civil marriage equality.

That is the kind of person that I would be upset with and would not be able to view in the same light.

Vojera

Vojera wrote: »

It's interesting how people adhering to the same religion can have such differing opinions. My mam was even telling me that the priest at home read a letter from the bishop at Mass last week (obviously urging a 'no' vote), but throughout it he kept saying that this was from the bishop and that his personal opinion did not agree with it.

Sr Stanislaus, Fr Gerry O'Connor, Fr Brian O'Fearraigh, Fr Padraig Standun, Fr Tony Flannery ... and they're just the ones who have spoken out in favour of a "yes" vote.

spurious

Someone who doesn't think/believe/consider that I am worth treating equally is a bigot in my book. They are in 'a state of mind where a person obstinately, irrationally, unfairly or intolerantly dislikes other people'.

Jhcx

Afaik most my family are no except for the parents. Personally I don't know how I feel as I'm voting yes as this vote should never have to take place. But that I myself Dont believe in marriage in the first place. So yes I am slightly upset that one two are behind me

SterlingArcher

I understand its makes people frustrated and angry.

But wasn't the Catholic church blanking people or telling others to blank them,for thinking different or being different ie homosexual.. Because they believed that what they were doing was right. Same rules apply.

Personally voting yes, but not going to hate on anyone that does not think the same,I can't tell people to try accept other peoples differences yet not try accept theirs. Or only accept them so long as I agree with them or think they're right.

wakka12

Zhane wrote: »

I don't see it passing either. I know that is very negative view to have. But there is a very real possibility. My expectations are very low.

The whole surrogacy thing and youtube ads were a huge blow to the YES side no matter what you think. Thousands and thousands of misinformed people across the country think this referendum is more about gay adoption/surrogacy than marriage due to the NO sides successful campaigning..

Vojera

wakka12 wrote: »

The whole surrogacy thing and youtube ads were a huge blow to the YES side no matter what you think. Thousands and thousands of misinformed people across the country think this referendum is more about gay adoption/surrogacy than marriage due to the NO sides successful campaigning..

I made a complaint about the posters to the Referendum Commission and got back that "there will be views expressed by both sides of the argument that the other side does not agree with. There is no "referee" to decide what is correct or incorrect."

I replied that I really didn't think that response was good enough - I accept that people can disagree but I DO NOT accept that groups can bring in issues that are completely unaffected by the outcome of the referendum to manipulate the viewpoints of others. In response to that I received an email that said my comments "have been noted. The Commission are constantly monitoring and updating the www.refcom.ie website as it deems appropriate." So PFO, in other words.

To say I was disappointed by that is an understatement. I know RefCom has since come out to say that surrogacy is not related, but they left it too long and didn't say it loud enough. There should be sanctions against groups who put forward false information in a referendum campaign.

wakka12

I used to think it was fun and interesting to get into debates about gay rights and all that or in general challenge people’s bigotry and prejudice and call them out. but recently it’s become a burden. it’s a chore now. i no longer want to debate about whether or not i should have basic human rights, this shouldn’t even be a ****ing issue anymore. I no longer go into these discussions with an open mind and a light-hearted demeanor, now I just get angry. I should not have to defend my humanity at every single step, repeatedly and constantly. I'm honestly done discussing this referendum with people who will never even consider seeing things from our point of view or changing their ways

wakka12

Vojera wrote: »

I made a complaint about the posters to the Referendum Commission and got back that "there will be views expressed by both sides of the argument that the other side does not agree with. There is no "referee" to decide what is correct or incorrect."

I replied that I really didn't think that response was good enough - I accept that people can disagree but I DO NOT accept that groups can bring in issues that are completely unaffected by the outcome of the referendum to manipulate the viewpoints of others. In response to that I received an email that said my comments "have been noted. The Commission are constantly monitoring and updating the www.refcom.ie website as it deems appropriate." So PFO, in other words.

To say I was disappointed by that is an understatement. I know RefCom has since come out to say that surrogacy is not related, but they left it too long and didn't say it loud enough. There should be sanctions against groups who put forward false information in a referendum campaign.

Ive been this close to going down the road outside my college and tearing down those BS posters filled with lies, its offensive and I fill with rage every time I pass them on my way to college

floggg

mark26ireland wrote: »

Why?! Its not like its a personal attack on someone if they vote no!! I personally am on the fence when it comes to same sex parents

It may not feel personal to a No voter because either way the outcome won't effect them. They will never feel the effects of their vote.


But it feels very personal to me. It feels very personal when I have to listen to the merits of my relationship debated. It feels very personal when I am told I am unequal and undeserving.

It feels very personal when I hear my ability to parent questioned - even though it has been confirmed by the Referendum Commission that parenting has nothing to do with this relationship.

It feels very personal when I have to knock on doors and try and convince strangers to vote for my equality.

So perhaps put yourself in my position before you say this isn't personal. Try and imagine it's your rights that are subject to popular vote. Try imagine it's the worth and value of your relationship being judged.

It may just feel personal then...

timetogo

wakka12 wrote: »

I used to think it was fun and interesting to get into debates about gay rights and all that or in general challenge people’s bigotry and prejudice and call them out. but recently it’s become a burden. it’s a chore now. i no longer want to debate about whether or not i should have basic human rights, this shouldn’t even be a f issue anymore. I no longer go into these discussions with an open mind and a light-hearted demeanor, now I just get angry. I should not have to defend my humanity at every single step, repeatedly and constantly. I'm honestly done discussing this referendum with people who will never even consider seeing things from our point of view or changing their ways

I was coming in to work this morning and had the same kind of thoughts. I was listening to some idiot on the radio talking about children in Africa being taken from parents and decided I'm turning off.
It'll be the same for Boards. The no voters (and yes) voters aren't likely to change their opinions now. The no voters seem to be bouncing from one off topic issue to another in an attempt to get anything to stick.

I think in 10 or 20 years we'll look back at this referendum and think it was mental. Similar to how we look back to the civil rights of black people 50 or 60 years ago. You just look at that stuff and wonder how was it even a question.

It's annoying that the media have to devote 50% of time to each side. I understand the reasoning for it but it's like saying it should be a no brainer but as we haven't voted we have to give this guy 50% of the time to go off on his tangent.

floggg

mark26ireland wrote: »

Why?! Its not like its a personal attack on someone if they vote no!! I personally am on the fence when it comes to same sex parents

and as I said, the Referendum Commission have confirmed that adoption, surrogacy and other children's issues are entirely irrelevant in this debate. They will not be effected.

Whether you vote yes or no gay people will still raise children. This referendum is simply about how we wish to view the relationship between gay people, and whether we wish to treat them as constitutionally defined family or not.

If you're concern is any children that might be raised by a gay couple, then surely a vote in favour of accepting and protecting their family is in their best interests.

I can't see how a No vote can be in any way to the to benefit.

wakka12

timetogo wrote: »

I was coming in to work this morning and had the same kind of thoughts. I was listening to some idiot on the radio talking about children in Africa being taken from parents and decided I'm turning off.
It'll be the same for Boards. The no voters (and yes) voters aren't likely to change their opinions now. The no voters seem to be bouncing from one off topic issue to another in an attempt to get anything to stick.

I think in 10 or 20 years we'll look back at this referendum and think it was mental. Similar to how we look back to the civil rights of black people 50 or 60 years ago. You just look at that stuff and wonder how was it even a question.

It's annoying that the media have to devote 50% of time to each side. I understand the reasoning for it but it's like saying it should be a no brainer but as we haven't voted we have to give this guy 50% of the time to go off on his tangent.

Its soul destroying to listen to people like that But you know what the worst bit is, the thing that kills me. People who say YES voters are too in your face, and people who say they're voting NO now out of spite because of this. Those who ignore all the bull**** and immaturity and frankly incredibly offensive drivel they spout day in day out, their posters which are complete lies, and when we defend ourselves we are the bad guys. Its okay to call us unnatural and not part of gods plan, sinners even but we tell them they're complete gob****es who treat lgbt people as second class citizens and then were the ones doing wrong.

Anyway as I said Ive had enough of this referendum, if anyone talks to me about it I end the conversation as quickly as possible

floggg

emuhead wrote: »

I don't know of any in my family or close friends voting no, but what I personally find hard to deal with is the apathy. It would be nice to feel some explicit support from straight friends and family that I am out to. Sometimes I wonder what's the point posting on social media about the referendum. I'm in my 30s and I see plenty of new baby photos, weddings among my friends/ family over the past few years. It's hard when you make an effort to celebrate others' lives and when you need something, there's little back. Some of my friends and family seem to be so wrapped up in their lives and young families that there's no room for passion / interest in the rights of people like me. Sorry for the moan it's just this referendum is getting to me. I Expected a better response I guess.

I've actually been hurt by how unaware or unconcerned some of my immediate family are about this.

There is a referendum on my rights as an Irish citizen in 9 days, and yet they seem totally unaware of the issues. I would have liked to think that if people were publicly debating my rights and relationship like this, they would have had my back. At least have some concern for how I have been feeling.

But I guess that is too much to ask.

floggg

noonoo104 wrote: »

I've no problem with gay people getting married, adopting children and I believe they should be treated equally in society. But if there fighting for the right to be treated the same, they shouldn't have a special day (pride) to celebrate there uniqueness ðŸ˜

If were are only equal as long as we conform, we aren't equal.

floggg

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

If anyone is really worried about this referendum passing then join the canvass. There is still time. Its a very positive experience. Posting on social media is not as effective.

www.yesequality.ie/canvass

Or at the very least make an effort to talk to friends, family, relatives etc. Share personal stories, explain why its important to you. Tell them how the debate is making you feel.

Donate to the campain where you can as well.

And then canvass!

floggg

spurious wrote: »

Someone who doesn't think/believe/consider that I am worth treating equally is a bigot in my book. They are in 'a state of mind where a person obstinately, irrationally, unfairly or intolerantly dislikes other people'.

In fairness, there are a lot of ordinary people who have been truly confused by the noise and red herring arguments.

That's why its important to canvass and to talk to people.

floggg

SterlingArcher wrote: »

I understand its makes people frustrated and angry.

But wasn't the Catholic church blanking people or telling others to blank them,for thinking different or being different ie homosexual.. Because they believed that what they were doing was right. Same rules apply.

Personally voting yes, but not going to hate on anyone that does not think the same,I can't tell people to try accept other peoples differences yet not try accept theirs. Or only accept them so long as I agree with them or think they're right.

I accept people have different views, and I defend their right to hold them.

But don't ask him to respect the views of somebody who thinks me unequal and undeserving. I have far too much self respect for that.

goldenhoarde

Next week don't ask people how they are voting - ask them ARE they voting. don't vote on your own bring a friend/colleague/stranger the more the merrier.

Explain clearly to your loved ones/anyone what it actually means i.e. its only about marriage and nothing else and what it means to you. They just might not get it that's it's a big deal!

At least 5% of the country is gay so if they all vote and encourage as many people to vote and explain it to them the implications a Yes result should be possible.

In short ask everyone you meet on the 22nd to vote!!!

SpaceTime

Vojera wrote: »

I made a complaint about the posters to the Referendum Commission and got back that "there will be views expressed by both sides of the argument that the other side does not agree with. There is no "referee" to decide what is correct or incorrect."

I replied that I really didn't think that response was good enough - I accept that people can disagree but I DO NOT accept that groups can bring in issues that are completely unaffected by the outcome of the referendum to manipulate the viewpoints of others. In response to that I received an email that said my comments "have been noted. The Commission are constantly monitoring and updating the www.refcom.ie website as it deems appropriate." So PFO, in other words.

To say I was disappointed by that is an understatement. I know RefCom has since come out to say that surrogacy is not related, but they left it too long and didn't say it loud enough. There should be sanctions against groups who put forward false information in a referendum campaign.

There's no regulation of posters or print journalism only broadcast media because of very tight, over the top control by the BAI. That's nothing to do with the Referendum Commission either.

The referendum commission is really only able to look at how the state behaves and that the information from the state is purely factual.

There's very little they can do about posters. The Yes side just needs to out argue them.

Lies and misrepresenting the facts are sadly just part of the toolbox if you're getting underhand.

If this were a political campaign you couldn't do this kind of negative campaigning as you'd be attacking individuals standing for election. So if you made stuff up, you could be defaming someone.

You can't defame an abstract concept though so, it's a total free for all.

If any posters are actually blatantly hateful they could in theory come under the Incitement to Hatred legislation though. None of the official No campaign stuff does though. It's all just about muddying the waters every so politely...

All you can do is counter every point with logic and hope the electorate is sophisticated enough to see through their spin.

I've a sense this is going to pass and possibly by a big margin. I could be wrong but that's the way I'm reading it.

rainbow kirby

My own wedding is the day after the referendum - I'm a bi woman marrying a straight man. It would make me feel absolutely sick to think that people who were there had actively taken steps to stop the same-sex relationships that good friends of mine are in from being recognised in the same way as mine.

Aard

A friend of mine just posted something supporting the Mothers and Fathers Matter campaign. Gotta say my stomach turned.

Vojera

Aard wrote: »

A friend of mine just posted something supporting the Mothers and Fathers Matter campaign. Gotta say my stomach turned.

Really sorry to hear that, Aard. It's like people don't make the connection at all that we're real people, not just an abstract idea.

Spanish Max

floggg wrote: »

I accept people have different views, and I defend their right to hold them.

But don't ask him to respect the views of somebody who thinks me unequal and undeserving. I have far too much self respect for that.

That sounds conflicted tbh. You're saying you'll defend and accept someone voting no but won't respect them?

Aard

In fairness I wasn't particularly surprised. Devout Christian with that gormless vacant expression whenever a conversation starts to get logical. You're right though. Completely doesn't make the connection that gay people are also, shock horror, "real" people. Part of me wonders if I'm just a novelty to her. Anyway. Vent over!