Real Madrid (1) v (2) Juventus, 7.45, UCL SF

CSF

luckyboy wrote: »

But Ronaldo should try to facilitate that process, rather than be marking his territory. The Barca front three dovetail so much better because there isn't that competitive jealousy between them ...

Honestly, we've no idea what does or doesn't go on behind the scenes and it bugs me when people act like they do.

There weren't many complaints about the atmosphere at Real during that crazy winning run. Similarly, before everything started to go right at Barca, that same speculation was there about behind the scenes. If Barca suddenly hit a winless run next year, you can be sure there'll be a narrative to go along with it. It sells newspapers and gains Twitter followers.

I'm yet to hear a teammate or former teammate have a go at Ronaldo so I've reason to assume he's not an ok enough bloke. Because I've never met him.

luckyboy

CSF wrote: »

Honestly, we've no idea what does or doesn't go on behind the scenes and it bugs me when people act like they do.

There weren't many complaints about the atmosphere at Real during that crazy winning run. Similarly, before everything started to go right at Barca, that same speculation was there about behind the scenes. If Barca suddenly hit a winless run next year, you can be sure there'll be a narrative to go along with it. It sells newspapers and gains Twitter followers.

I'm yet to hear a teammate or former teammate have a go at Ronaldo so I've reason to assume he's not an ok enough bloke. Because I've never met him.

I'm not referring to anything behind the scenes. The Madrid and Barca front trios are on public view for 180 minutes per week. Their gestures, expressions, grimaces, pass selections, goal celebrations and any other acts and omissions are clear and transparent. Their words are quoted in the newspapers, and you can see when they are generous about a teammate and when they are not. Observing all of this, I don't hesitate to conclude that there is more professional harmony between the Barca front trio. Not being privy to backstage happenings doesn't mean you can't draw inferences from what you see, hear and read ...

SlickRic

Tony O'Donoghue is some piece of work.

Martin O'Neill is right to give him the disdain he does.

Ulysses Gaze

CSF wrote: »

It's upto Bale to leave his own stamp on the team IMO. Benzema certainly has.

It took Benzema the guts of 3 to 4 years to leave his stamp on the team.

Corholio

Once Juve scored tonight you felt it was the thing Real dreaded most, not being 2 in front by the time they did. The loss of Modric this season cannot be underestimated. He is a player that doesn't demand the ball just for the sake of it, and tonight too many like James and Kroos took so much time to play balls that any potential attacks were stunted. James especially looks like he's running on sand when he runs, plenty of times tonight Juve midfielders got to a ball before him. The way Real use their full backs don't help James and Bale either, they push up so much that Bale especially was pushed inside to the centre. Tonight Bale should have been used to take on Evra but the team never used that tactic at all, Carvajal was practically up on his back at times.

Should be a good final, Pogba didn't look at full tilt tonight so hopefully can get him in prime condition for the final. I feel set pieces will be huge for Juve in the final, players like Pogba and Chiellini should be targeting this wide chink in Barca's armour.

RedemptionZ

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

It took Benzema the guts of 3 to 4 years to leave his stamp on the team.

And if he was at (nearly) any other club in the world he'd be the top scorer and probably had the talent to be a club legend. Players normally pick success or money, in Madrid's case it generally involves both. But success is a weird thing, it's subjective. Would you rather personal success, knowing you have the talent or be another cog in the machine while winning everything possible with a team of elite players, many deemed more valuable than you? I wouldn't be begrudging Benzema at all, he's done really well and I'm sure Madrid look after him, but he won't have the legacy he could have had if he went to a non galacticos club. Although tbf, a part of that too is because of the lack of success the French national team has been while he's been around, which isn't really his fault. Still though if I were in his position I would want to be top man. He's good enough to be. Same with Bale.

Turtwig

This needs to become a meme.

https://vine.co/v/eKMVUKOjUeW


How do you embed vines?
Nm, it worked.

NIMAN

I wonder if anyone at all in the upper echelons of Real Madrid CF see anything ironic in the fact that they ditched a promising young forward, who then managed to score in both legs against them in the CL semi-final, putting them in their place?

What has Hernandez got that this young striker doesn't?

Maybe in future they will stick by some of their own talent.
Although I doubt it.

Ulysses Gaze

NIMAN wrote: »

I wonder if anyone at all in the upper echelons of Real Madrid CF see anything ironic in the fact that they ditched a promising young forward, who then managed to score in both legs against them in the CL semi-final, putting them in their place?

What has Hernandez got that this young striker doesn't?

Maybe in future they will stick by some of their own talent.
Although I doubt it.

Madrid have an even younger striker, Jese, who they felt would be even better than Motata. He picked up an ACL injury last season and since he has returned this season, they have hardly played him.

Why bother developing young talent if they don't play them.

Pinturicchio

NIMAN wrote: »

I wonder if anyone at all in the upper echelons of Real Madrid CF see anything ironic in the fact that they ditched a promising young forward, who then managed to score in both legs against them in the CL semi-final, putting them in their place?

What has Hernandez got that this young striker doesn't?

Maybe in future they will stick by some of their own talent.
Although I doubt it.

Madrid have a buy back clause for Morata. I hope they don't use it.

Giggsy11

NIMAN wrote: »

I wonder if anyone at all in the upper echelons of Real Madrid CF see anything ironic in the fact that they ditched a promising young forward, who then managed to score in both legs against them in the CL semi-final, putting them in their place?

What has Hernandez got that this young striker doesn't?

Maybe in future they will stick by some of their own talent.
Although I doubt it.

If only it was so simple. Morata wouldn't have played many games as Benzema is better and first choice. Morata wanted to leave for first team football. Can't blame Madrid for not selling Benzema.

ronjo

I guess Juve winning is not good for the coeffecient for England?

Does anyone know what the Italian clubs need to do to pass out English clubs?

NIMAN

I think I read that they have to better the English teams performances in next years CL too, and then they would take a 4th spot off the EPL.

I'm probably wrong though.

Jelle1880

NIMAN wrote: »

I think I read that they have to better the English teams performances in next years CL too, and then they would take a 4th spot off the EPL.

I'm probably wrong though.

Nope, you're right.

As of next season I believe the gap will be 3 points, so if the Italian teams better the English teams' results they will overtake them.

GLaDOS

Napoli (and/or Fiorentina, though unlikely after the first leg) can close the gap further if they qualify for the Europa league final.

gimmick

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Nope, you're right.

As of next season I believe the gap will be 3 points, so if the Italian teams better the English teams' results they will overtake them.

Would be hilarious if a "bluffer" league like Italy took the 4th spot.

kksaints

Turtwig wrote: »

That was so cruel interviewing Bale. The guy was even holding back tears for feck sakes.

Also, WHAT THE ACTUAL FCK RTE? Were Real Madrid playing Real Madrid or something?

Rte were truly awful last night. No preview of the final,next to nothing about Juve who actually won the match and lots of terrible arguments between Sadlier and the other two.

GavRedKing

The top 3 leagues and leagues who get 4 spots are on the following co-effecients

1) Spain - 98.713
2) England - 80.391
3) Germany - 79.129
4) Italy - 70.176

The above 4 are being judged for 5 year from 2010-2015 so Italy will need a big swing in the next few years before they get close to Germany or England.

Current 14/15 points are

1) Spain - 18.928
2) England - 13.571
3) Germany - 15.571
4) Italy - 18.666

To make up a swing of 9 or 10 points in a year or two theyed need nearly all the German/English teams to go out very early in Europe and for the Italian teams to continue to go far in UCL and EL.

So for the short term the 4th spot in Germany and England is pretty safe. If you take the period from 2011-2016 the Italian sides in the year 2011/12 alone are lagging behind England/Germany by about 4 points and on average, 2 points a year after that up until this current period where theyve no doubt out performaed their counter parts.

Will be interesting to watch over the years if this trend keeps up.

http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/index.html

Benimar

GavRedKing wrote: »

To make up a swing of 9 or 10 points in a year or two theyed need nearly all the German/English teams to go out very early in Europe and for the Italian teams to continue to go far in UCL and EL.
http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/index.html

Actually, looking at those figures, it would be possible to turn it around in one year.

When 2010/11 drops out, England 'lose' approximately 18.4 points and Italy 11.6. If English and Italian clubs achieved identical results in 2015/16 that already closes the gap to 3 or 4 points.

However, if clubs in both leagues were to replicate their 2014/15 results (very unlikely I know) then the English co-efficient at the end of 2015/16 would be 75.6 (80.4-18.4+13.6) and Italy would be 77.3 (70.2-11.6+18.7)

I wonder if the English clubs might be getting a gentle reminder to take the EL a bit more seriously!

GLaDOS

GavRedKing wrote: »

The top 3 leagues and leagues who get 4 spots are on the following co-effecients

1) Spain - 98.713
2) England - 80.391
3) Germany - 79.129
4) Italy - 70.176

The above 4 are being judged for 5 year from 2010-2015 so Italy will need a big swing in the next few years before they get close to Germany or England.

Current 14/15 points are

1) Spain - 18.928
2) England - 13.571
3) Germany - 15.571
4) Italy - 18.666

To make up a swing of 9 or 10 points in a year or two theyed need nearly all the German/English teams to go out very early in Europe and for the Italian teams to continue to go far in UCL and EL.

So for the short term the 4th spot in Germany and England is pretty safe. If you take the period from 2011-2016 the Italian sides in the year 2011/12 alone are lagging behind England/Germany by about 4 points and on average, 2 points a year after that up until this current period where theyve no doubt out performaed their counter parts.

Will be interesting to watch over the years if this trend keeps up.

http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/index.html

The big swing comes because 10/11 points are dropped, meaning England is losing out 7 points of its lead. Italy will be right behind England next year. Also the year after, another 3 points in difference will be dropped due to 11/12 season points falling away.

http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/

Italian teams don't need to majorly outperform English teams at all to take the 4th spot.

GavRedKing

Benimar wrote: »

Actually, looking at those figures, it would be possible to turn it around in one year.

When 2010/11 drops out, England 'lose' approximately 18.4 points and Italy 11.6. If English and Italian clubs achieved identical results in 2015/16 that already closes the gap to 3 or 4 points.

However, if clubs in both leagues were to replicate their 2014/15 results (very unlikely I know) then the English co-efficient at the end of 2015/16 would be 75.6 (80.4-18.4+13.6) and Italy would be 77.3 (70.2-11.6+18.7)

I wonder if the English clubs might be getting a gentle reminder to take the EL a bit more seriously!

Possible but very unlikely, IMO.

Its certainly close enough to make it uncomfortable but with Utd very likely to get UCL football at Pools expense, theyre much better equipped for European football next season than Pool were this year just gone.

GavRedKing

If England do lose the 4th spot it will make the league even more competitive and would mean any of the English sides in the EL would ahve to take it pretty seriously if they want to guarantee a spot.

dfx-

Benimar wrote: »

I wonder if the English clubs might be getting a gentle reminder to take the EL a bit more seriously!

Next year's competitors could contain Swansea and Southampton if Spurs 'continue to evade it' or not bother to win games just to finish low enough.

It would be unendingly hilarious if Tottenham had their lofty goal of CL in 4th spot taken away from them because England were so useless in the EL.

GLaDOS

GavRedKing wrote: »

Possible but very unlikely, IMO.

Its certainly close enough to make it uncomfortable but with Utd very likely to get UCL football at Pools expense, theyre much better equipped for European football next season than Pool were this year just gone.

I wouldn't say very unlikely, it's a lot closer than that.

Next season, as it stands England start off with 60.034, Italy with 58.605.

Lets say hypothetically England and Italy perform identically next season, we'll say they accrue 15 points each. With 11/12 points dropping, they'll start the 16/17 season with England on 59.784 and Italy on 62.248.

When the 12/13 points drop, the Italians gain another 2 points again.

So if Italy can match England for the next 2 seasons, 4th spot is theirs.

And this is before adding any more points Italy may accumulate this season.

Italy are dropping some very mediocre seasons from the early 2010s and it's going to really help their ranking.

gosplan

Is anyone else just sick of the rediculous overrating of players in the last few years. It's like anytime a player rears their head and shows themselves to be a cut above the rest, the hipster soccer nerds/FM addicts fall over themselves proclaiming how we've never seen a player like this or how they're the best at 'x' and then they always turn out to be good players but not at all up to the hype.

I know it's always happened but it seems so overdone these days.

Last night you had

Vidal: Last years 'best midfielder in the world'
Pogba: This years 'best midfielder in the world'
Pirlo: The finest midfielder of his generation and apparently still the best in the world ... On his day.
James: Hottest property after the World Cup
Kroos: the guy who was going to redefine midfield with his amazing range of short and long passing ad rediculous stats.

But then we're told Madrid miss Modric?

When do we get back to saying 'he's a good player and would fit in any team'.

Personally I think that of the above, Pirlo has shown that he can produce consistant masterclasses for a long time and Pogba has all the attributes to become a beast for the next decade. The rest are overhyped.

Turtwig

Buying players on the foot of the World Cup performances is remarkably silly. The WC actually consists of very few teams of the elite quality of club level.

pmy.murphy

gosplan wrote: »

Personally I think that of the above, Pirlo has shown that he can produce consistant masterclasses for a long time and Pogba has all the attributes to become a beast for the next decade. The rest are overhyped.

Totally agree

citytillidie

dfx- wrote: »

Next year's competitors could contain Swansea and Southampton if Spurs 'continue to evade it' or not bother to win games just to finish low enough.

It would be unendingly hilarious if Tottenham had their lofty goal of CL in 4th spot taken away from them because England were so useless in the EL.

Don't forget Everton or West Ham could also make the EL depending on who finishs highest between them in the Fair Play league but have to start in the 1st Qualifying round

TimRiggins

In fairness to James I think he's actually good and he certainly not Madrids worse player last night won the penalty and had a long range curler that only just went over.

Speaking off over hyped. Remember when this Madrid side were setting the record for most wins in a row earlier this season and they were going to walk through everyone before them!

gosplan

I guess my real point is that if everyone can see that selling great players for fashionable players, who may or may not turn out to be great, isn't a winning formula and the best route to trophies, why can't Madrid?

I get that as a club they ask for more, that they want attacking football and flair.

But Christ, give your team the best opportunity to do all that and win.

Ozil, Di Maria and Alonso were steady for Real. Shipping them out for Bale, James and Kroos makes no difference in terms of playing ability and destabilises your team.

Compare the core if the Barca and Madrid teams over the last 6 years and you'll see why Barca have done better.

In essence Barca have replaced Pedro and Fabregas with Neymar and Suarez. Xavi's being slowly phased out and Iniesta, Messi and Busquets are still ever present. There have been others involved but it's over years and it's enabled them to go through a horrific situation with managers.

In just the last two years, Real have had at one point or another as first team players (I think)

Alonso
Khedira
Di Maria
Isco
Ronaldo
Kroos
James
Modric
Benzema
Bale
Pepe

gosplan

TimRiggins wrote: »

In fairness to James I think he's actually good and he certainly not Madrids worse player last night won the penalty and had a long range curler that only just went over.

Speaking off over hyped. Remember when this Madrid side were setting the record for most wins in a row earlier this season and they were going to walk through everyone before them!

Ah yeah. I'm not knocking the players themselves. But hypothetically speaking, if a player exactly like James emerged at next years Euros, Madrid would pay to swap one for the other and lose two years experience in the deal.

MisterAnarchy

gosplan wrote: »

Ozil, Di Maria and Alonso were steady for Real. Shipping them out for Bale, James and Kroos makes no difference in terms of playing ability and destabilises your team.

I think most knowledgeable football people realised that Real were making a mistake buying both Kroos and Rodriguez and trying to shoehorn them into the same team.

They are both useless defensively .
Kroos was at fault for the goal last night ,he let his man go ,its a common failing of his.

Whilst Alonso was pushing on in age ,he did alot of dirty work for the team and was a good pairing with Modric ,two clever footballers working in tandem .

Perez is like a teenager wanting to buy the latest smartphone every year ,its change just for the sake of changing ,buy the hottest name around just for the sake of it.

Is anyone else just sick of the ridiculous overrating of players in the last few years.

Yes,its becoming farcical .

Last season we were told Yaya Toure was the best midfielder in the world and this season the same pundits are labelling him as a waster and a liability in the big matches .

A few seasons ago Andy Carroll was sold to Liverpool for £35m pounds and 18 months earlier he was being offered for sale for £1m by Newcastle.

I read an article a while back about the hottest players in Europe in 2015 and the year was only 6 weeks old !