Legality of a bicycle with an attached engine

Robscrob

Hi guys! I'd appreciate your input on this. Also, if you think I'd get more info in another forum, let me know.

I'm considering attaching an engine to my bicycle as a way of getting around quicker since I'm going back to Kerry where I will certainly need a better mode of transport.
You've probably seen these bikes around, but if not, they're typically something like this guy's:

www(dot)pushbikeengine(dot).ie
(^Sorry I can't post the actual URL since I'm a new user)

Anyway, the owner of that site and salesman of many of the bike engines in Dublin says you don't need tax, insurance or a driving licence. Is that true? If so, is there some law I can cite in case I'm pulled over? I'd rather not take his word for it in case he's just trying to push his product and I end up with a ticket.

goodlad

Depends on the speed it does.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0483.html

“ ‘moped’ means—

(a) a two-wheel vehicle or three-wheel vehicle with a maximum design speed of more than 25 km/h but not more than 45 km/h, or

From what I read the loophole is because some of these require you to pedal and the motor assists. You stop peddling and the motor stops.

dubscottie

A Garda over on biker.ie stated that if the motor is capable of propelling the bike without you having to pedal, you need licence, tax etc..

blade1

I know of 2 people put off the road for drink driving and have used these, pass guards and have had nothing said to them.

Hotblack Desiato

Many guards (non traffic corps) have little clue about the law on vehicles, never mind bikes in particular

NOT getting arrested doesn't mean what you were doing was legal! how many of us have gone past guards while riding in a bus lane and weren't stopped?

The only legal bikes with a motor are the pedal assisted cycles, assistance must cut out if you stop pedalling or exceed 25km/h. Think electric assisted bike. I don't know if there are any legal non-electric ones, but what would be the point.

Anything else is a mechanically propelled vehicle - must have type approval or single vehicle approval (lights, horn, frame number, etc), number plate, VRT, motor tax. Rider must have approved helmet, motorcycle licence, IBT and insurance.

NEVER trust a salesman. That holds for most things, but for vehicles most of all.

SCOL

I had a 2 stroke bicycle with an engine and passed 3 or 4 check points I just stopped the engine and cycled past. I now got myself a 4 stroke engine as my commute is 32miles round trip as I cycle in once or twice a week use the engine powered bike about once a week and car if the weather is bad.

I never had any problem with the garda.

Hotblack Desiato

And when you have a crash, all us eejits who pay big money to be legal on the road will compensate your victims out of our insurance premiums

Nice going.

Flood

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

And when you have a crash, all us eejits who pay big money to be legal on the road will compensate your victims out of our insurance premiums

Nice going.

Until its confirmed that they must be taxed and insurance to be compliant with the law your post is premature.

Del2005

Flood wrote: »

Until its confirmed that they must be taxed and insurance to be compliant with the law your post is premature.

It's a motorised vehicle so it needs insurance. Ignorance of the law isn't a defence so the poster has to provide the statute which allows them to ride a bicycle with an engine without insurance/tax/helmet. Until that is provided they are as bad, if not worst, than other uninsured road users

Flood

From pushbikeengine website.

Your next question might be “ Are they legal on the road ? “ YES! You don’t need to pay road tax or insurance for your bike. You don’t even need a driving licence. Just buy and enjoy your unique and attractive bike. You will recognize my bikes at their logo, my trademark of high quality.

Chloris

Del2005 wrote:

It's a motorised vehicle so it needs insurance. Ignorance of the law isn't a defence so the poster has to provide the statute which allows them to ride a bicycle with an engine without insurance/tax/helmet. Until that is provided they are as bad, if not worst, than other uninsured road users

I'd imagine if it can't independently exceed speeds of 30kph, it wouldn't be considered a motorcycle and thus the rider wouldn't be legally required to wear a helmet (but not wearing a helmet would be incredibly dangerous). Also there isn't an insurance or tax form covering a bicycle with an engine.

Victor

Chloris wrote: »

Also there isn't an insurance or tax form covering a bicycle with an engine.

It's a motorbike. You use the motorbike forms.

Hotblack Desiato

Flood wrote: »

From pushbikeengine website.

More fool you if you believe the guy selling it to you.

Chloris

Yeah you're right actually, Victor. Disregard me, I suck cocks. I just found this old thread where it's explained pretty well. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055363675

Robscrob

Thanks for all the input guys.
I went ahead and asked my local gardaí, but they weren't able to help, so I tried the Traffic Corps in Dublin castle. They also weren't sure, but said they'd check up on it and get back to me. I got a call an hour later and was told I don't need tax, insurance or a licence; that it counts as a bicycle.
Now, I expect I should trust this, right? I'd have my way, anyway. I asked what I should do if I am pulled over, for whatever reason, and he told me just to say I had contacted the traffic corps and as far as I understand it, it is legal.

traco

250W could be your stumbling block, many US electric bikes are 500w and can be throttle driven only up to 25mph but I think when brought into europe they have to be modifiied to 250w and powered by peddle motion only - no throttle.

Personally I think throttle is safer as there is no delay on or off with the power becasue you have complete control, where as with the peddle stuff it kicks in on rotation of the crank and then theres a delay from when you stop peddling depending on how crude or sophisticated the set up. No idea how hey manage that with an engine??

Cuddlesworth

Robscrob wrote: »

Thanks for all the input guys.
I went ahead and asked my local gardaí, but they weren't able to help, so I tried the Traffic Corps in Dublin castle. They also weren't sure, but said they'd check up on it and get back to me. I got a call an hour later and was told I don't need tax, insurance or a licence; that it counts as a bicycle.
Now, I expect I should trust this, right? I'd have my way, anyway. I asked what I should do if I am pulled over, for whatever reason, and he told me just to say I had contacted the traffic corps and as far as I understand it, it is legal.

There is a difference between something being illegal and somebody being willing to do something about it. For example, we all drive down bus-lanes on motorbikes. Its illegal, but the gardai turn a blink eye. As they have been doing for a number of years.

Now if you were to get a electric bike or motor and get caught bombing down a road 20%+ over the speed limit or tearing through red lights, then you might find the willingness to do something about it would change if caught.

Del2005

Robscrob wrote: »

Thanks for all the input guys.
I went ahead and asked my local gardaí, but they weren't able to help, so I tried the Traffic Corps in Dublin castle. They also weren't sure, but said they'd check up on it and get back to me. I got a call an hour later and was told I don't need tax, insurance or a licence; that it counts as a bicycle.
Now, I expect I should trust this, right? I'd have my way, anyway. I asked what I should do if I am pulled over, for whatever reason, and he told me just to say I had contacted the traffic corps and as far as I understand it, it is legal.

Unless you've a badge number and it in writing I wouldn't be believing anything that comes from an organisation that tells people that you need a 4x4 to tow a double axle trailer or who've ignored people on electric bikes going up hills without using the pedals. At the end of the day it's you who'll end up in front of a judge if you're wrong not the Garda

If you want to know what the bike needs to be road legal contact the people who licence the vehicles on our roads

Hotblack Desiato

The real test will come when there is an accident and you're at fault - if you're not legal then you'll find out good and proper.

Anything that happens short of that is a lucky escape. Unless you can point to the law which legalises these vehicles, they are illegal, and it doesn't matter what any garda says to you. They are not judges of the law.

unattendedbag

the definition of mechanically propelled vehicle under the 1961 road traffic act is where you will get caught out.

“mechanically propelled vehicle” means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—

(a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

(b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

“pedal bicycle” means a bicycle which is intended or adapted for propulsion solely by the physical exertions of a person or persons seated thereon;

It sounds like this powered bicycle falls under the definition of a MPV. However, one exception i can think of is Mobility scooters, however this has apparently been deemed "an extension of ones body" and therefore exempt from Road traffic legislation. (Cant find the case law).

I cant help but think that this salesman selling these bikes should be able to quote the law or loophole that his business is based upon. id be interested to know in fact ill fire off a quick email and see. I wouldn't just take his enthusiastic word for it.

blade1

unattendedbag wrote: »

I cant help but think that this salesman selling these bikes should be able to quote the law or loophole that his business is based upon. id be interested to know in fact ill fire off a quick email and see. I wouldn't just take his enthusiastic word for it.

If somebody did have an accident would he not be leaving himself open to getting sued for selling stuff under false pretences or false advertising?

unattendedbag

blade1 wrote: »

If somebody did have an accident would he not be leaving himself open to getting sued for selling stuff under false pretences or false advertising?

Depends who is at fault for the accident. he may be selling the engines but wouldn't have any responsibility for how it's used. However selling engines and purporting then to be road legal when in fact they are not would leave the business owner open to a civil suit if a rider got prosecuted for road traffic offences.

Vikings

blade1 wrote: »

If somebody did have an accident would he not be leaving himself open to getting sued for selling stuff under false pretences or false advertising?

It's up to you as the driver to make sure your car/bike/trike/mike is legal on the road, nobody else.

Victor

Vikings wrote: »

It's up to you as the driver to make sure your car/bike/trike/mike is legal on the road, nobody else.

There is also an obligation on manufactures to comply with type approval and construction regulations.

blade1

Vikings wrote: »

It's up to you as the driver to make sure your car/bike/trike/mike is legal on the road, nobody else.

So you don't think the seller should have any responsibility and it's ok to lie to customers for a quick sale?

Surely as paying customers they are entitled to at the very least the truth.

Vikings

blade1 wrote: »

So you don't think the seller should have any responsibility and it's ok to lie to customers for a quick sale?

Surely as paying customers they are entitled to at the very least the truth.

At the end of the day you are going to be the person driving it.

If I sold you a bike and said you don't need to tax and insure it because X, Y or Z would you just take my word for it and drive it away?

When you are in charge of a vehicle - be it a car or a bike or whatever else on the road - you are the person that put it there. It's your responsibility to make sure it has the relevant tax, insurance, nct, doe, that you have the correct licence etc.

I'd be interested to see the response unattendedbag gets from that website.

blade1

Vikings wrote: »

At the end of the day you are going to be the person driving it.

If I sold you a bike and said you don't need to tax and insure it because X, Y or Z would you just take my word for it and drive it away?

When you are in charge of a vehicle - be it a car or a bike or whatever else on the road - you are the person that put it there. It's your responsibility to make sure it has the relevant tax, insurance, nct, doe, that you have the correct licence etc.

I'd be interested to see the response unattendedbag gets from that website.

Would you tell someone that to sell your bike?

Thinkingaboutit

I know of man in Mayo who told someone in a shop to **** off when they asked if he needed a helmet and licence. Seemed well capable of keeping up in with cars on the national road.