€250 taken from deposit

kennedyal27

Hi
Im looking for some advice. After about 3 weeks of trying to get my deposit back from my landlord, i finally got it back minus 250e. When i rang up about this they told me it was to hire contract cleaners. My first thought was what cleaners cost 250e.

I then asked what had to be cleaned as we left the apartment spotless. Spent all day scrubbing it from head to toe, except for the bathroom as it was filthy when we moved in and we have proof of this.

I was told that the 250e was because they found some clothes under the bed and some dirt, the oven needed to be cleaned and the bathroom. Nothing was damaged. So we obviously did forget to clean under the bed. But the oven , we had been trying to get fixed for the last few months as it was faulty and needed replacement, but they never did anything about it no matter how many times we ask. And the Bathroom was filthy when we moved in.

They sent me pictures of this so called mess and it looks liek it would take 30 seconds to sweep. And the picture of the fridge they sent me looks spotless. I will attach them here


Please see below to the email i sent them
"Thank you for sending on the photos.

The apartment was inspected on the date the keys were handed over and no issues with the condition of the apartment were raised.

As discussed we moved out on 17 April and have only been notified now in regards to this deduction. I would be grateful if you could justify why this has taken so long to communicate?

Has the apartment been relet and what date did this occur?

In relation to the 250 euro taken from the deposit. Can we have receipts for the costs including itemisation?

I would also like to make the following observations in relations to the photos:

In relation to the pictures:
• The bathroom was filthy when we received the keys (we have documents on this)
• The fridge looks very clean in the photo and was checked and accepted by maintenance man collecting the keys
• There is some dirt under the bed but this is minor and does not breach the rental contract.
• After 12 months let the apartment was handed back the very good condition and under normal wear and tear, no deduction should have been made
• The Oven was faulty when we moved in and was never properly repaired.


I would like to point out that at the time the keys were handed over, we were told that everything was fine and the apartment was in very good condition.[name person and number]

I have rang (property company) a number of times in relation to getting back the deposit.

These issues have just been presented and notifying us 3 weeks after and taking deductions without discussing is not acceptable.

There has been issues with non-maintenance from your side in regards to the Oven and also when we moved in the bathroom was not cleaned. It was been given back in a better state than we received it.

We also have proof signed by "" that the bathroom was not clean, which I can forward later on.

We can forward this on.
"

After this i forwarded on proof that the bathroom was filthy. they then rang me back and said they would refund me 100e for this. But the 150e would not be refunded as now they said the whole apartment needed to be cleaned and it was "unliveable". Which is joke.

But Im still not happy the apartment was spotless when we moved out which was agreed upon by maintenance upon inspection. And they just took it out of my deposit without informing me. I feel they are basically just taking my money.

They still have not sent me any receipts and i believe they are in the wrong here?
i do not want to accept the 100e as i feel i would be excepting that they can keep the rest.
Can someone please help me in relation to what i should do next?


##I cant post photos as this is my first post

The_Morrigan

Lodge a claim with the PRTB

Sleepy

Besides lodging a claim with PRTB, there's not much else you can do tbh.

MayoSalmon

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Lodge a claim with the PRTB

And then wait until 2017:p

kennedyal27

MayoSalmon wrote: »

And then wait until 2017:p

Exactly. So they can just do what they want?

Also i have just received a receipt from them for the cleaning. However it is a receipt addressed to me from the property management company and not the "contract cleaning" company they said they hired. Am i right to think this seems odd?

Also does it make sense to someone else that the fact that the Bathroom was not clean shows that the apartment was never cleaned before moving in? Or is this just an inference i am making

Black_Knight

kennedyal27 wrote: »

Exactly. So they can just do what they want?

Also i have just received a receipt from them for the cleaning. However it is a receipt addressed to me from the property management company and not the "contract cleaning" company they said they hired. Am i right to think this seems odd?

Also does it make sense to someone else that the fact that the Bathroom was not clean shows that the apartment was never cleaned before moving in? Or is this just an inference i am making

Original receipt please.

edit: The bathroom not being clean when you moved in is irrelevant now really. And yes, getting a receipt from the property management company and not a contract cleaning company is odd, and to me its not legitimate. Whether the property management company did the cleaning or not, they're not a cleaning company, and have no pricing structure to work off of. I'd almost be skeptical of any receipt they give you for the cleaning (that last bit is just my opinion)

gaius c

kennedyal27 wrote: »

Exactly. So they can just do what they want?

Also i have just received a receipt from them for the cleaning. However it is a receipt addressed to me from the property management company and not the "contract cleaning" company they said they hired. Am i right to think this seems odd?

Also does it make sense to someone else that the fact that the Bathroom was not clean shows that the apartment was never cleaned before moving in? Or is this just an inference i am making

Sounds like you got scammed. They need to provide a full receipt from the cleaning company itself. Did you get the partial deposit back from the landlord directly or from the management company?

P.S. Don't ask them for the proper receipt because they could well jimmy up something. Lodge the claim with the PRTB immediately and show the unusable receipt they've given you.

Black_Knight

Oh, and if you havnt been until now, get everything in emails. Phone conversations are you word against theirs. Not sure if PRTB accept text messages either.

EMAILS ARE KING

kennedyal27

Black_Knight wrote: »

Original receipt please.

edit: The bathroom not being clean when you moved in is irrelevant now really. And yes, getting a receipt from the property management company and not a contract cleaning company is odd, and to me its not legitimate. Whether the property management company did the cleaning or not, they're not a cleaning company, and have no pricing structure to work off of. I'd almost be skeptical of any receipt they give you for the cleaning (that last bit is just my opinion)

And to further insult me the invoice they sent me just now is dated today and not from when the cleaning took place 3 weeks ago.

gaius c wrote: »

Sounds like you got scammed. They need to provide a full receipt from the cleaning company itself. Did you get the partial deposit back from the landlord directly or from the management company?

P.S. Don't ask them for the proper receipt because they could well jimmy up something. Lodge the claim with the PRTB immediately and show the unusable receipt they've given you.

I fell it is quite obvious at this stage that this is true.
Its too late i have already asked for this, as polite as possible of course.
I received this from the property management company

Black_Knight wrote: »

Oh, and if you haven't been until now, get everything in emails. Phone conversations are you word against theirs. Not sure if PRTB accept text messages either.

EMAILS ARE KING

Everything is now through email.

This is big company and im starting to think they may try this with everyone

The_Morrigan

MayoSalmon wrote: »

And then wait until 2017:p

kennedyal27 wrote: »

Exactly. So they can just do what they want?

Also i have just received a receipt from them for the cleaning. However it is a receipt addressed to me from the property management company and not the "contract cleaning" company they said they hired. Am i right to think this seems odd?

Also does it make sense to someone else that the fact that the Bathroom was not clean shows that the apartment was never cleaned before moving in? Or is this just an inference i am making

It's the only legal recourse available to the OP and therefore the only advice that can be given here as to the 'next steps'.

CollyFlower

Did they give you an name of the 'alleged cleaning Co' who did the cleaning? If so, could you get in contact with them and make enquiries?..... You could make something up when you call them, say something like 'did they happen to come across a phone charger or something while cleaning'.

kennedyal27

CollyFlower wrote: »

Did they give you an name of the 'alleged cleaning Co' who did the cleaning? If so, could you get in contact with them and make enquiries?..... You could make something up when you call them, say something like 'did they happen to come across a phone charger or something while cleaning'.

No they didnt give me any name, mthey just said "contract cleaning company".

Also the invoice they sent me today is dated today and i know that there has been people living there for the last 2 weeks..

Im going to raise it with the PRTB, it sounds like there is no other course

foggy_lad

Many of these agencies and property "management" companies are at this scam where they automatically deduct cleaning costs of €300-€500 from deposits. they then get some local person in with a clapped out hoover and duster and bottle of bleach to give the place a freshen up before letting it to the next person.

OP your only recourse is to open a complaint with the PRTB and let them take action but be prepared for this company to have receipts etc BUT they told you on the day you left that everything was good and that should be the case!

Also they must give you a chance to address any issues which they found which they clearly did not do! this will go against them in the tribunal but then again it might not because Quangos like the PRTB are not the most consistent or reliable.

gravehold

foggy_lad wrote: »

Many of these agencies and property "management" companies are at this scam where they automatically deduct cleaning costs of €300-€500 from deposits. they then get some local person in with a clapped out hoover and duster and bottle of bleach to give the place a freshen up before letting it to the next person.

OP your only recourse is to open a complaint with the PRTB and let them take action but be prepared for this company to have receipts etc BUT they told you on the day you left that everything was good and that should be the case!

Also they must give you a chance to address any issues which they found which they clearly did not do! this will go against them in the tribunal but then again it might not because Quangos like the PRTB are not the most consistent or reliable.

She did say she didn't clean the bathrom and bedrooms fully and they say the letting agency have pics of this with dirt in the oven too.

If they have these pics an a legit receipt then it's pretty obvious some extra cleaning was done.

Take it to the prtb op but don't be expecting to win.

Viper_JB

gravehold wrote: »

Take it to the prtb op but don't be expecting to win.

If the management agency cannot provide a proper receipt she will win it's a pretty cut and dry thing - they cannot charge her for their own time if they done the cleaning, took over 2 years for me to get my money back in a similar situation but I got it back eventually.

gravehold

Viper_JB wrote: »

If the management agency cannot provide a proper receipt she will win it's a pretty cut and dry thing - they cannot charge her for their own time if they done the cleaning, took over 2 years for me to get my money back in a similar situation but I got it back eventually.

I am pretty sure they will be able to supply a proper receipt, most have companies on call that do the work

The Magnificent Falcowboys

Its ****e like this that leads people to use the deposit as the last months rent, **** them first before they **** you. And the thing is if you were a good tenant and didn't do any damage your basically using your own money

Viper_JB

gravehold wrote: »

I am pretty sure they will be able to supply a proper receipt, most have companies on call that do the work

I dunno it's not normally that easy after the fact, the receipt has to be for the full amount - and has to have a tax no. associated with it and the correct dates - could be considered as fraud to make one up after and the tax would have to be paid on it then and stuff - just not worth the hassle for the company that they would have on call, in my experience some management companies seem to just do this to every person that rents from them in the hopes that 90% won't fight it (and they're probably correct).

gravehold

The Magnificent Falcowboys wrote: »

Its ****e like this that leads people to use the deposit as the last months rent, **** them first before they **** you. And the thing is if you were a good tenant and didn't do any damage your basically using your own money

She said there was clothes left in the bedroom and the bathroom didn't get a good doing over. Combined with the oven it seem reasonable to call in cleaners to get it up to spec.

gravehold

Viper_JB wrote: »

I dunno it's not normally that easy after the fact, the receipt has to be for the full amount - and has to have a tax no. associated with it and the correct dates - could be considered as fraud to make one up after and the tax would have to be paid on it then and stuff - just not worth the hassle for the company that they would have on call, in my experience some management companies seem to just do this to every person that rents from them in the hopes that 90% won't fight it (and they're probably correct).

Your assuming they didn't call in anyone.

Viper_JB

gravehold wrote: »

Your assuming they didn't call in anyone.

Ya I think that's a safe assumption to make taking into consideration what they've already sent her on in terms of a receipt/invoice - if they had a genuine one from having actually had the work done surely they would have sent that on instead?

gravehold

Viper_JB wrote: »

Ya I think that's a safe assumption to make taking into consideration what they've already sent her on in terms of a receipt/invoice - if they had a genuine one from having actually had the work done surely they would have sent that on instead?

The cleanings company might not have sent the full invoice yet

filbert the fox

Doesn't all of this require a sensible arrangement whereby on the day of departure both the tenants and the Landlord go through the property with an independent witness to agree on the final terms of termination of occupancy?
Draw up a quick agreement with any cash adjustments for such matters and walk away with peace of mind??

Viper_JB

gravehold wrote: »

The cleanings company might not have sent the full invoice yet

You're assuming that they used a cleaning company...:pac:

gravehold

Viper_JB wrote: »

You're assuming that they used a cleaning company...:pac:

Yes hence saying take it to the prtb to sort out but don't expect to win. From OP's post there was extra cleaning to do and these companies just farm it out to cleaners and remove the cost from the deposit so they can get the next people in quick so don't care how much it costs the previous tenants

Squatman

kennedyal27 wrote: »

No they didnt give me any name, mthey just said "contract cleaning company".

Also the invoice they sent me today is dated today and i know that there has been people living there for the last 2 weeks..

Im going to raise it with the PRTB, it sounds like there is no other course

You need to mention this to the landlord first. there is no point in going behind his back. Mention it to him first and he may cough up

bobmalooka

It seems like the landlord would have a hard time explaining the deduction to PRTB when you look at the steps the landlord has taken. They have changed the narrative every time you have questioned it which would suggest they haven't followed the process they need to deduct any money from you.

- deduction of €250 without receipts (they cant do this)
- providing a receipt from them billing you for €250 cleaning (they cant do this)
- providing a receipt of €150 from cleaning company, 3 weeks after they were meant to have done €250 worth of cleaning

It just doesn't add up, at this stage I cant see how anybody would find they have followed their obligations and that's before you even consider if the work needed was above normal wear and tear.

If they had done things right they MAY have been entitled to deduct money but providing retrospective receipts with figures different to originally quoted doesnt sound convincing to me.

dapop

filbert the fox wrote: »

Doesn't all of this require a sensible arrangement whereby on the day of departure both the tenants and the Landlord go through the property with an independent witness to agree on the final terms of termination of occupancy?
Draw up a quick agreement with any cash adjustments for such matters and walk away with peace of mind??

I was an area property manager for one of the big UK chains and this is exactly how it was done; agreed on the spot and this way 95% of deposits were disbursed without issue partly because tenants actually see any issues first hand rather than being told about them after the fact.

These systems are not rocket science but just need to be applied and there seems to be reluctance in the Irish lettings industry to adopt systems that may really improve things for both landlords and tenants.

I am still in the same business in Ireland and we have actually got cleaning costs down considerably since we felt prices in the region of €250.00 (plenty of commercial operations will charge these sort of amounts) were not justifiable whether it was coming from a deposit or a landlord direct. We typically pay €125.00 for a full clean but in order to do this we use tested casual labour and generally no invoice is provided from the cleaner. However we issue a company invoice for the cleaning to the landlord / tenant. We have had this invoicing process queried in the PRTB and they found no fault with the practice.

I would add that one of the reasons agents and property managers’ issue their own invoices is to allow them to add a percentage and therefore there would be a discrepancy between the original contractor invoice and what they issued you. For this reason they may be reluctant to let you see the original.

Personally I do not agree with loading third party invoices with a percentage (agents get paid to manage without having to rake further money like this) but it does happen. However it is certainly not permissible for an agent to make money from a deposit like this.

foggy_lad

gravehold wrote: »

She did say she didn't clean the bathrom and bedrooms fully and they say the letting agency have pics of this with dirt in the oven too.

If they have these pics an a legit receipt then it's pretty obvious some extra cleaning was done.

Take it to the prtb op but don't be expecting to win.

gravehold wrote: »

I am pretty sure they will be able to supply a proper receipt, most have companies on call that do the work

gravehold wrote: »

She said there was clothes left in the bedroom and the bathroom didn't get a good doing over. Combined with the oven it seem reasonable to call in cleaners to get it up to spec.

gravehold wrote: »

Your assuming they didn't call in anyone.

Where does it say that the management company contacted her to say the cleaning wasn't up to standard and giving her a chance to remedy it?

Before any deductions can be made for such cleaning the tenant must be given the chance to do the cleaning themselves, this was not done in this case and is not done in many other cases!

kennedyal27

foggy_lad wrote: »

Where does it say that the management company contacted her to say the cleaning wasn't up to standard and giving her a chance to remedy it?

Before any deductions can be made for such cleaning the tenant must be given the chance to do the cleaning themselves, this was not done in this case and is not done in many other cases!

Just before we go any further i am actually male. ha.

Correct no they did not inform me of anything when the property was inspected.

Also i after i asked for the 3rd party receipt they have replied by saying "we have our own contract cleaners this is a sufficient invoice which shows the cost of deep cleaning."

kennedyal27

Viper_JB wrote: »

If the management agency cannot provide a proper receipt she will win it's a pretty cut and dry thing - they cannot charge her for their own time if they done the cleaning, took over 2 years for me to get my money back in a similar situation but I got it back eventually.

The invoice they sent me is billing me for their own cleaners, 100e less than they took from me and dates 3 weeks after the cleaning was done.

bobmalooka wrote: »

It seems like the landlord would have a hard time explaining the deduction to PRTB when you look at the steps the landlord has taken. They have changed the narrative every time you have questioned it which would suggest they haven't followed the process they need to deduct any money from you.

- deduction of €250 without receipts (they cant do this)
- providing a receipt from them billing you for €250 cleaning (they cant do this)
- providing a receipt of €150 from cleaning company, 3 weeks after they were meant to have done €250 worth of cleaning

It just doesn't add up, at this stage I cant see how anybody would find they have followed their obligations and that's before you even consider if the work needed was above normal wear and tear.

If they had done things right they MAY have been entitled to deduct money but providing retrospective receipts with figures different to originally quoted doesnt sound convincing to me.

This also does not add up to me and is quite furiating.