Ireland to assist in migrant crisis in the Med.

IrishTrajan

My name is URL wrote: »

Nothing has been committed to yet

Though we shouldn't shirk away from the responsibility either. It's not right to just say 'let the others deal with it'.

Ireland was and is happy enough to take all it can from the EU. We should share the burdens as well.

We just went through seven years of crushing austerity and our books still aren't balanced, all so that the British, Germans, and French wouldn't have had to take the entire wollop from the banking crisis. I don't think we should have to compromise our own immigration policy just because the Germans took in more migrants than they could deal with and now want to spread it around.

Alexis Sanchez

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Hasnt the instability in libya given these people smugglers free reign to operate there ?

If Gadaffi was still in power do you think this could happen as easily ?

Also according to this Syrians and Afghans are making up a good amount of the numbers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_2015_Mediterranean_Sea_migrant_shipwrecks

It was Nicolas Sarkozy who pressed for military intervention in Libya, not America. David Cameron joined him afterwards.

NATO as a whole got involved in Libya, so you can't blame America for this.

IrishTrajan

Infini2 wrote: »

Realistically the only way this is gonna be stopped is at the source and while people may or may not agree the only way to do it would be to occupy Libya itself since the whole place is falling apart until such a time as things are sorted out and stabilised. Last thing anyone needs is another Somalia/Afghanistan/Derkaderkastan on Europe's doorstep. Even arguing about the whole its the UKs fault etc is pointless now since the problem is there and it needs to be sorted preferrably with a UN peacekeeping force.

Heavily, heavily disagree. European troops should not be deployed to occupy the country, that'd just make us a target and boost support for Islamist factions.

I believe we should remove the restrictions on trade with the Libyan (Tobruk) Government, and supply them with equipment (lethal and non-lethal). We should also allow the Egyptians to operate more effectively. If they send men, material and air support to the Libyans, we should give them 5 to 10 years of access to European markets tariff free. This should invigorate Egypt's economy, provide a significant shift in favour of the Libyan Government, and keep Europe from having to fight to death.

Europe's power lies in its economic size, not its military adventurism.

Del.Monte

My name is URL wrote: »

Nothing has been committed to yet

Though we shouldn't shirk away from the responsibility either. It's not right to just say 'let the others deal with it'.

Ireland was and is happy enough to take all it can from the EU. We should share the burdens as well.

Well, how many do you think Ireland should take?

My name is URL

Del.Monte wrote: »

Well, how many do you think Ireland should take?

Whatever amount is fair. I don't know enough about the situation to say what that number is, but I know it's not zero.

MathDebater

My name is URL wrote: »

Nothing has been committed to yet

Though we shouldn't shirk away from the responsibility either. It's not right to just say 'let the others deal with it'.

Ireland was and is happy enough to take all it can from the EU. We should share the burdens as well.

The UK, Ireland and Denmark can opt out of such a quota scheme - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-outs_in_the_European_Union#Table

Only the UK, Ireland and Sweden completely opened up their borders to the accession state nationals in May 2004. The rest of the EU 15 kept transitional restrictions in place, some of them, up until the 1st of May 2011.

But eaten bread is soon forgotten. Now our 'EU partners' want to share the burden!

BoJack Horseman

Alexis Sanchez wrote: »

It was Nicolas Sarkozy who pressed for military intervention in Libya, not America. David Cameron was joined him afterwards.

NATO as a whole got involved in Libya, so you can't blame America for this.

True.

It was UK/French led, with considerable assistance from Spain/Italy.

The US assisted logistically & with some armaments as a favour.

Europe is militarily so hopelessly degraded, knocking out a 3rd worlds air force was beyond the combined might of Europe alone.

Del.Monte

IrishTrajan wrote: »

We just went through seven years of crushing austerity and our books still aren't balanced, all so that the British, Germans, and French wouldn't have had to take the entire wollop from the banking crisis. I don't think we should have to compromise our own immigration policy just because the Germans took in more migrants than they could deal with and now want to spread it around.

This is problem - there's no policy but to muddle on and pretend that Ireland has no problem assimilating immigrants.

wakka12

Gatling wrote: »

Rather than rescue boats,send in helicopter gunships and and blockade the ports .
Use the gunships to destroy anything capable of carrying more than a handful of people before they are used by the traffickers .
And a proper navel blockade to prevent anything from getting out of shallow water .

We certainly can't take in 20,000 or 20,000 pa we already have a rental and housing crisis along with shortages in school places

I agree with your sentiments but bombing the ports seems a bit OTT

Del.Monte

My name is URL wrote: »

Whatever amount is fair. I don't know enough about the situation to say what that number is, but I know it's not zero.

A typical, woolly answer from somebody who wants to be seen to do the right thing but without realising the consequences.

Gatling

My name is URL wrote: »

Whatever amount is fair. I don't know enough about the situation to say what that number is, but I know it's not zero.

We've 5000+ currently in direct provision centers here ,
We've 100,000 waiting on housing lists here several hundred thousand unemployed,
A major shortage of school places and several hundred families currently homeless.

Remember if 7000 are brought in here that number could well increase X2 or x3 based off extended families wanting to come and stay with the newly arrived once they have rights to Stay .

BoJack Horseman

Gatling wrote: »

Remember if 7000 are brought in here that number could well increase X2 or x3 based off extended families wanting to come and stay with the newly arrived once they have rights to Stay .

Indeed.

Its worth remembering that the the advent of summer & calmer waters exploded numbers to over 10,000 per week.

Now that the word has gone out that all boats will be rescued, all bets are off.

10,000 per week in summer will become the norm for winter, I expect within a couple of months numbers to top 20k per week as Africans see that the risks are now much much lower.

Conversely, this may cause more death as more boats will be launched & more will capsize/sink before rescue.

IrishTrajan

My name is URL wrote: »

Whatever amount is fair. I don't know enough about the situation to say what that number is, but I know it's not zero.

An admirable sentiment, but we can't accept an arbitrary number, nor can we take in several thousand a year. I'm all for us aiding these peoples. But not by moving them here, giving them houses and then ignoring the root of the problem. We should invest heavily in their economies, provide jobs and security to the many thousands. I'd like us to set aside maybe €200-€300mn a year for the Government to invest in these countries through semi-State companies. We can provide loans to build roads and infrastructure, we can provide (semi)-private enterprise to create jobs and economic growth, we can provide income for many thousands of people through the knock-on effect of the Keynesian multiplier.

€200 million is pennies considering our economy is closer to €180 billion, but it will become profitable (in which case the Government has a new source of revenue) and could solve so many of the woes in the Middle East.

emo72

i see great futures in inflatable dinghies.

cajonlardo

Irish? You can rot on a hospital trolley or die of hypothermia in a doorway.
We've infants dying because we cannot care for them in our hospitals.There are mentally ill living rough and without care because we haven't the facilities or services in place to mind them. Living in a rural area and in fear of roving criminal gangs? We'll take away your Gardai. Live in the biggest town in the country? We'll send your part time fire service to their deaths rather than provide a proper service.

So does the above make me a racist or xenophobe or just plain heartless?
If it does,tough titty. Ireland has, since shortly after the state was formed, been sending help to countries all over the globe. The cost in Irish Lives has been high and in monetary terms considerable.
Maybe its time to say we are doing enough, we need to look after the Irish now before we commit further aid to foreign causes.

Gatling

wakka12 wrote: »

I agree with your sentiments but bombing the ports seems a bit OTT

It's not bombing the ports it's sinking the boats and it's already going to get proposed to the Un security council as some point

emo72

cajonlardo wrote: »

Irish? You can rot on a hospital trolley or die of hypothermia in a doorway.
We've infants dying because we cannot care for them in our hospitals.There are mentally ill living rough and without care because we haven't the facilities or services in place to mind them. Living in a rural area and in fear of roving criminal gangs? We'll take away your Gardai. Live in the biggest town in the country? We'll send your part time fire service to their deaths rather than provide a proper service.

So does the above make me a racist or xenophobe or just plain heartless?
If it does,tough titty. Ireland has, since shortly after the state was formed, been sending help to countries all over the globe. The cost in Irish Lives has been high and in monetary terms considerable.
Maybe its time to say we are doing enough, we need to look after the Irish now before we commit further aid to foreign causes.

id have the same sentiment as you. 92 yo elderly lady on her 4th night on a trolley in A and E. stroke victim. but hey, the recovery is well on the way:(

frostyjacks

If they're genuinely fleeing war zones why can't they just cross land to a neighbouring country, that would have similar traditions and culture, instead of paying a fortune to risk their lives on a rust bucket of a ship? Send every one of them back.

Mesrine65

Enough is enough...

We are a small island nation with our own problems/issues.

We need to set our own house in order before we start increasing the burden on Irish society IMHO

BoJack Horseman

frostyjacks wrote: »

If they're genuinely fleeing war zones

Most aren't, that is well known.

The vast majority are economic migrants, mostly young & male from the sub-saharan states stretching from Eritrea to Mali.

Just wanting to get to Europe for a better life.

The failed state of Libya is the perfect place for that opportunity.

JONJO THE MISER

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Another thing,if we accept EU plans on taking in migrants,we will take in 272 migrants per 20,000.[/url]

They can fck right off, that would mean we would take in 68,000 migrants.
Sure we have no housing crisis here and no one on social housing waiting list and all of these migrants will be put on the housing list.
Lets not forget to add most of these migrants will be muslims, have we not had enough problems in Europe already instead of importing more in.
Time for the government to take care of our own people which they can barely do already instead of importing poor migrants.

_Kaiser_

RTE News reckons 300....

Once again the Irish authorities (in their overriding need to be seen as the goods boys of the EU class) commit the country to taking in economic migrants from outside the (EU) jurisdiction, with little thought of where these people will be housed, and where the money will come from for the support services they'll require (actually no, that's no mystery at all - the taxpayer will be asked to cough up again one way or another of course!)

This country has more than enough social, economic and inequality issues of our own without falling over ourselves to take on the problems of others as well. By all means, if you come here legally to work, integrate and contribute then welcome!!! but on this issue I'd be following the UK's lead TBH.

But of course, it's not PC to say things like that now in Ireland... if you have concerns about these things you're clearly xenophobic, racist, or some other such nonsense.

Charity begins at home and we have more than enough deserving cases if there's help to be offered.

The Diabolical Monocle

Catch vessels, note last sea-territory, return to that country.

If rejected cut business ties, foreign aid.

Maybe threaten private interests of ruling politicians.

Grayson

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Very few of them would speak English, and a lot of them would be used to Islamic rule of law. Assimilation would prove incredibly difficult, especially if you're putting them in their own dominated-areas with few natives (example: Malmo in Sweden).

you realise most muslim countries aren't under islamic law and havent been for the last 20 years. Take Syria for example. Syria was a secular society. A lot of these refugees are fleeing groups like the islamic state. I'd bet that most migrants are coming from countries where islamic radicalism has emerged over the last few years.

Plus these migrants know full well what Europe is like.

Finally, they are actually risking their lives to make the journey to these countries.

JONJO THE MISER

We better hope sinn fein never gets into power, for they will invite every one in.

Grayson

Del.Monte wrote: »

A typical, woolly answer from somebody who wants to be seen to do the right thing but without realising the consequences.

Yeah, we should let them die in boats in the med. That's the obvious answer.


Or.... We could look at how many we could take.

For centuries Irish people left this former craphole of a country. Pretty much every Irish family has relations in the US, Canada or Australia.

I'm not saying we should take them all, but there's nothing wrong with looking at how many we could take. Being against that stinks of narrow minded bigotry. To dismiss without even looking at how many people we can save is just horrible.

emo72

Grayson wrote: »

Yeah, we should let them die in boats in the med. That's the obvious answer.


Or.... We could look at how many we could take.

For centuries Irish people left this former craphole of a country. Pretty much every Irish family has relations in the US, Canada or Australia.

I'm not saying we should take them all, but there's nothing wrong with looking at how many we could take. Being against that stinks of narrow minded bigotry. To dismiss without even looking at how many people we can save is just horrible.

where will we put them?

Mesrine65

Mosney :pac::pac::pac:

IrishTrajan

Grayson wrote: »

you realise most muslim countries aren't under islamic law and havent been for the last 20 years. Take Syria for example. Syria was a secular society. A lot of these refugees are fleeing groups like the islamic state. I'd bet that most migrants are coming from countries where islamic radicalism has emerged over the last few years.

Plus these migrants know full well what Europe is like.

Finally, they are actually risking their lives to make the journey to these countries.

It was secular for a Muslim State. It was not and is not secular compared to European standards. The same was with Turkey before Erdogan began his Islamification. It was too secular for the Muslims, not secular enough for the Europeans.

And the problem with that thinking is that it is incredibly, incredibly short term. What happens when their children, disenfranchised with the West, start calling for Sharia law? We can't exactly deport them now, can we?

The migrants, and their children, will place an ever increasing strain on national services (such as the HSE and schooling) which is hardly in the best position right now.

BoJack Horseman

Grayson wrote: »

I'd bet that most migrants are coming from countries where islamic radicalism has emerged over the last few years.

Most are economic migrants, but this is true to an extent.

Boko Haram are causing movements from Mali/Niger.

The Muslim/Christian Suda/South Sudanwar has created quite a few refugees & further east, Ethiopia (which was doing OK) is at odds with its militant breakaway neighbour Eritrea & many people along the border are on the move.

Coming soon, to a recently state purchased guesthouse near you.

jackofalltrades

My name is URL wrote: »

Ireland was and is happy enough to take all it can from the EU. We should share the burdens as well.

The EU were happy to make us pay off the bondholders, all for the sake of "stopping contagion" and protecting their economies.

We took a huge hit on that, we owe them nothing.

FalconGirl

Our government would want to cop the fcuk on and stop being consistently the good boys in the class and challenge these proposals. We have a major housing and health crisis ffs!! Get our own house in order ffs. Spineless prats.

IrishTrajan

Grayson wrote: »

For centuries Irish people left this former craphole of a country. Pretty much every Irish family has relations in the US, Canada or Australia.

I'm not saying we should take them all, but there's nothing wrong with looking at how many we could take. Being against that stinks of narrow minded bigotry. To dismiss without even looking at how many people we can save is just horrible.

When the Irish went to Australia, the US and Canada, they were treated like filth and only changed the system through violence and crime mixed with politics. Forgive me if I find your example of Irish integration a bit lacking.

Also, the comparison of Anglosphere citizens moving to other Anglo nations is a false equivalency. We weren't bring a massive culture change. We didn't bring our own language since most of us spoke English, we didn't ask for Brehon law... We were quite homogenous.

Then exactly how many do we take, and how do we sort them? Do we take those in direst need, split up families? Does one person needing to get here urgently mean all their family can come, taking up space for others who require urgent care?

Err... How many homeless have you taken into your own home? How many asylum seekers or non-EU migrants? You surely have room for one or two, no?

I bring that last part up not to slander you, but to support my point. It is human nature to not want to surrender what is "ours" for "them". Why should Ireland, which had absolutely no role in Libya, Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan have to pay the price? If we give the migrants a place to live, surely it will embolden yet more migrants to attempt the illegal crossing also?

wendell borton

Grayson wrote: »

Yeah, we should let them die in boats in the med. That's the obvious answer.


Or.... We could look at how many we could take.

For centuries Irish people left this former craphole of a country. Pretty much every Irish family has relations in the US, Canada or Australia.

I'm not saying we should take them all, but there's nothing wrong with looking at how many we could take. Being against that stinks of narrow minded bigotry. To dismiss without even looking at how many people we can save is just horrible.

We have had successful if small scale success in the past with bringing in Vietnamese boat people, but the current asylum system here is a joke that needs a major overall.

emo72

you can be assured, that whoever is negotiating on our behalf in europe will never have to face a public A and E or be waiting on a housing list. they inhabit a different world.

Mesrine65

Sure lets have a referendum on it...

We seem to have a fúcking referendum for everything these days.

Mourinho

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

RTE News reckons 300...

A bit like the "low numbers" predicted to come into Ireland during the boom from central\eastern Europe and we all know how that turned out

Even then at least we had lots of available jobs for them, compared to the economy now.

Hans Bricks

Thank your lucky stars we're not Italians. Those poor fuckers are the ones bearing the brunt of these daily mass exoduses from Libya.

Mourinho

Hans Bricks wrote: »

Thank your lucky stars we're not Italians. Those poor fuckers are the ones bearing the brunt of these daily mass exoduses from Libya.

Actually I'd love to know where have the thousands so far gone? Are they taken in or arranged in some sort of refugee camp or what?

Hans Bricks

Mourinho wrote: »

Actually I'd love to know where have the thousands so far gone? Are they taken in or arranged in some sort of refugee camp or what?

Haven't a clue.

Gatling

Mourinho wrote: »

Actually I'd love to know where have the thousands so far gone? Are they taken in or arranged in some sort of refugee camp or what?

Seen something along the lines the Italians have built several housing estates where the take arrivals to ,
Many flee so they can't be finger printed and avoid the Dublin convention

emo72

Mourinho wrote: »

Actually I'd love to know where have the thousands so far gone? Are they taken in or arranged in some sort of refugee camp or what?

quick google turned up this
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/video/headlines/migrant-crisis-inside-italys-makeshift-refugee-city/vi-AAbBVc1


it really is something we dont want to be getting involved in. its a ****ing disaster. a few of the lads interviewed all wanted to go to england. where will our "gaddiffi hotel" be?

IrishTrajan

Mourinho wrote: »

Actually I'd love to know where have the thousands so far gone? Are they taken in or arranged in some sort of refugee camp or what?

I know some of them are in refugee camps outside Calais. Otherwise I don't know.

Rhys Essien

Hans Bricks wrote: »

Thank your lucky stars we're not Italians. Those poor fuckers are the ones bearing the brunt of these daily mass exoduses from Libya.

They took in 7,000 people in two days,the weekend before last.Their navy must be flat out.Its like the flood gates are after opening.

emo72

7000 in 2 days??? jaysus, thats the population of a fair sized town in ireland.

end of the road

jackofalltrades wrote: »

The EU were happy to make us pay off the bondholders, all for the sake of "stopping contagion" and protecting their economies.

We took a huge hit on that, we owe them nothing.

i'd go one further, and have told them to **** off we won't pay. but that would take someone with guts. in saying that, i've no issue with us helping the migrants. i'd hope to jesus we never experience the desperation of having to get on a boat knowing you may not make it to try flee

visual

Gatling wrote: »

Seen something along the lines the Italians have built several housing estates where the take arrivals to ,
Many flee so they can't be finger printed and avoid the Dublin convention

We don't even enforce the dublin convention here. If we did there wouldn't be 7k in temporary accommodation.

It's my tax money that will fund FG attempt at PC. Roll.on the elections and every one that knocks on my door I will ask a simple question if a past TD was not acting 100% in public interest that their pension (I fund) is withdrawn

end of the road

IrishTrajan wrote: »

When the Irish went to Australia, the US and Canada, they were treated like filth and only changed the system through violence and crime mixed with politics. Forgive me if I find your example of Irish integration a bit lacking.

Also, the comparison of Anglosphere citizens moving to other Anglo nations is a false equivalency. We weren't bring a massive culture change. We didn't bring our own language since most of us spoke English, we didn't ask for Brehon law... We were quite homogenous.

Then exactly how many do we take, and how do we sort them? Do we take those in direst need, split up families? Does one person needing to get here urgently mean all their family can come, taking up space for others who require urgent care?

Err... How many homeless have you taken into your own home? How many asylum seekers or non-EU migrants? You surely have room for one or two, no?

I bring that last part up not to slander you, but to support my point. It is human nature to not want to surrender what is "ours" for "them". Why should Ireland, which had absolutely no role in Libya, Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan have to pay the price? If we give the migrants a place to live, surely it will embolden yet more migrants to attempt the illegal crossing also?

not taking them in won't stop them from crossing. all they would do if a majority of countries tried it, is simply cross anyway and simply hope they get through. and before you mention australias approach? i no more buy it actually works then the cat. the conservative government there has to say what it needs to to keep the gullible sheep on side for votes after all.

Gatling

visual wrote: »

We don't even enforce the dublin convention here. If we did there would be 7k in temporary accommodation.

It's my tax money that will fund FG attempt at PC. Roll.on the elections and every one that knocks on my door I will ask a simple question if a past TD was not acting 100% in public interest that their pension (I fund) is withdrawn

We generally don't have to enforce the Dublin convention as most asylum seekers are sent back to the country they land in before they get to our shores,
It's the main reason many asylum seekers will avoid authorities so they can't be finger printed

end of the road

Mesrine65 wrote: »

Sure lets have a referendum on it...

We seem to have a fúcking referendum for everything these days.

because they are issues that can only be changed by a change to the constitution. changes to the constitution requires a referendum